Tom Hegna: Talking The Annuity Talk & Walking The Annuity Walk

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can find out the brutal

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facts about annuities with no sales

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pitches or high pressure nonsense just

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the brutal and factual annuity truth

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which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

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host stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent license in all 50 states

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i'm so glad that you joined us on all

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major podcast platforms or if you are

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aggressively watching us on the fun with

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annuities youtube channel i have a

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repeat guest today

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because everyone keeps asking when's tom

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coming about going i want to hear tom

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and i don't blame him because he is the

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most sought after speaker in the annuity

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industry unfortunately he's uh you know

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he walks the walk on this thing he

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believes in transfer risk he believes in

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lifetime income and that means that he

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is transitioning into chapter two of his

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life but

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he has got so much to say and i'm so

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glad to have him on tom hegna welcome

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back to fun

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with the news

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stan great to be back with you i'm

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coming to you from flagstaff arizona

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that's where i spend my summers where

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it's about 30 degrees cooler than

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phoenix

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i understand that you just drive up the

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mountain a little bit i totally

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understand that and unfortunately i'm

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running in between florida and las vegas

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now because our main office is in las

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vegas i go from the jungle to the desert

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and from the desert to the jungle it's

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tough on contact warriors you know yeah

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but let's jump in

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tom hegna

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um

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market volatility political volatility

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global volatility

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volatility we got a solution for that

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right

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yeah and i mean look i don't think

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anybody's telling anybody to put all of

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their money any one place but you should

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have some amount of money you know for

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me it's probably

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i'm probably more conservative than a

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lot of people i probably have 50 to 60

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percent of my money into into you know

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guaranteed products and then i have you

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know i have some real estate and i have

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some stocks and things like that but but

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you know you don't get a chance to to

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make it all over again and what people

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don't understand is the japanese stock

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market has been down for over 30 years

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the european stock market was down for

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over 20 years we even had a lost decade

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here that wasn't that long ago

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i don't know why people think that the

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market is just always going to go up and

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up and up and up and up and up you you

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can't depend on that for your retirement

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retirement's about income it's not about

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assets

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i totally agree and you're a great

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golfer i'm going to say that if you want

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to

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disagree with that but i always tell

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people there's no mulligans in

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retirement can you translate that for

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people yeah there's no dress rehearsal

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there's no second chance we've got to

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get it right the first time and that's

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why i'm trying to help people see stan i

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don't sell any financial products i

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don't care if they buy any of the

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financial products i'm trying to show

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them what the research of the leading

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phds and economists around the world

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that say as a minimum in retirement you

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should cover your basic living expenses

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with guaranteed lifetime income and if

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people would just do that as a baseline

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and stand the easiest way for a normal

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investor to get involved with annuities

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is just move their bonds bonds are doing

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nothing and and as interest rates go up

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the value bonds is going down that's

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ridiculous move your bonds into an

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annuity you're going to be happier the

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risk is going to go down the returns are

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going to go up i mean it's like

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it's crazy that that that morph you know

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the wall street journal should be

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screaming and they did they had an

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article that said you should transfer

3:41
your bonds into annuities the barons had

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a really good article on it on annuities

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recently so i think the mainstream media

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is starting to catch up a little bit

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tight's changing because you know with

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the demographic tidal wave of people

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retiring and looking for guarantees

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um you know it's just a good time to

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look at all different types of annuities

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there's just not one annuity it's like

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saying there's just one restaurant

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that just drop that drives me crazy you

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know we've had wade fowl on we've had

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moshe moleski on now we have tom hagan

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on i mean those are the three

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giants in our industry of talking of

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talking about annuities from a non-sales

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level because they don't sell anything

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that's the reason i love what tom does

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he he educates consumers but he also

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educates advisors and agents on how to

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properly position

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all annuity types

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transferring risk he's a

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he's a treasurer it's kind of sad sad to

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me that he's not going 100 miles an hour

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like he used to but you know he's 61 and

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the reason that he can transition at age

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61 is he's

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he he lives the plan you know he's not

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just talking about it he has multiple

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annuities in place for lifetime income

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he's transferring the risk

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um

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i did a recent video um

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tom and i want you to comment on it it

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was called you won the game why are you

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still playing right weigh in on

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why people are still holding on to well

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you have to have exposure to the markets

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why is that this in the same categories

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well you have to go to college it seems

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to me that's ringing hollow now yeah no

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and i always tell people what are you

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trying to be the richest guy in the

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cemetery see i don't want to be the

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richest guy in the cemetery i want to

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live the richest life and so you know

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you said i'm not going 100 miles an hour

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i am i'm just not doing it a hundred

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miles an hour in my work i'm 100 miles

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an hour at golf and pickleball i'm

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playing pickleball two days a week i've

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played tennis so i mean i i'm doing the

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things that i want to do and yes is it

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hard for me because you know people

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thought i was kind of a workaholic i

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wasn't but i'd work 80 90 hours a week

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but but i was doing something i loved to

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do but now

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you know i i lost my mom lost my dad

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lost two of my golfing buddies one at 56

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one at 41 and you start realizing hey we

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don't know how long this thing is going

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to last why do i want to be on a staying

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at marriott hotels i'm lifetime platinum

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or lifetime diamond at hilton lifetime

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platinum elite at married i've spent

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five years of my life five whole years

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just in those two hotel chains do i want

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to do that no i mean i love to do the

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speaking i love to do the training um

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but but another thing stan that's that's

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interesting is as i'm doing my training

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there are a whole lot of financial

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advisors out there who still don't get

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it they say they're fiduciaries but they

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don't use annuities i mean that's

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ridiculous it'd be ridiculous how can

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you say you're a fiduciary doing what's

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right for a client in retirement and not

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ever bring up an annuity i mean that

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that's malpractice how can they call

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themselves a fiduciary so i've got those

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battles to fight yet too

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and i know me and you both battle those

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you have those battles over social media

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and when we speak and and people that

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are under the mantra of i hate all

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annuities yeah and always tell advisors

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well if that's the case then stop

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advising on social security because

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that's that's an annuity or stop

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advising someone on a pension that

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they're getting from their employer if

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they're if they're so fortunate and stan

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people love their social security they

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love their pensions and they happen to

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love their income annuities how many

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times have you ever got a complaint from

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somebody said stop sending me these

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checks i don't like them

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that's never happened in the history of

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the world none i i recently had um a

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group of researchers on from stan

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stanford university that are their

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studied

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cogniti cognitive decline

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within seniors and people our age as

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well i mean it happens

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um

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can you address that hard subject for

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people and and maybe give them some tips

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and pointers on how to

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either talk with their spouse or loved

7:29
one about hey we might want to put this

7:31
turnkey solution in place for income

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because

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you know one out of one of us is going

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to die but one out of two of us the

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stats say when we're in our 80s are

7:40
going to have cognitive issues yeah so

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this ring is very true to me because

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both my parents had alzheimer's i've

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taken the dna test i got two alzheimer's

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genes so like this is the real deal and

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if you if you research it what you find

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is over the years many seniors

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they don't realize they have dementia my

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parents didn't even realize it until you

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know i think eventually they did but at

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first they don't and they just do things

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that don't make sense like they'll do

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things that in their mind make sense but

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they don't make sense and now imagine if

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you're doing that with an investment

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portfolio and you read some articles

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somewhere that says oh this stock's

8:12
going to go good and you said well i'm

8:14
going to move all my money to that stock

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or something people are getting wiped

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out and so i think as you get older once

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you get into your 70s especially in 80s

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you need to consolidate you need to have

8:26
fewer financial advisors you need to

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have fewer products they need to be

8:29
simpler and they need to be things that

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you know you almost want some surrender

8:34
charges or something on there to protect

8:37
you from yourself uh if if if you do

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have cognitive decline and so i think

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the insurance products can help people

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set themselves up to to be okay because

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if an income annuity is coming in

8:48
whether you are

8:50
cognizant of it or not it's coming in

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and it's not going to stop and you can't

8:53
stop it so those types of products are

8:55
very good for people as they get in

8:57
their 70s and 80s and as you know the

8:59
payout rates are so high because of the

9:00
mortality credits they're getting extra

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money from the risk pool of the people

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who bought a noise and died they're

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getting that money too so i mean that's

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pretty powerful

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no it really is um and i think that

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people are warming up to

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the contractual guarantees that are out

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here obviously interest rates rising

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helps

9:19
everything um whether it's a lifetime

9:21
income annuity or a multi-year guarantee

9:23
annuity for a guaranteed interest rate

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um when people approach you advisors or

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or consumers

9:32
about interest rates timing should we

9:34
wait blah blah blah what do you tell

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them

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well look i mean

9:39
inflation's at nine percent you got a

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30-year bond that today is under three

9:43
percent that doesn't make sense see if

9:45
inflation's nine percent a 30-year bond

9:47
should be paying 12 or something like

9:48
you should get paid more than what the

9:50
inflation rate is so what what that's

9:52
telling me is the bond market which is

9:54
the smartest market in the world is

9:55
telling me that they see something

9:57
really bad on the horizon they don't see

9:59
inflation keep going up they think that

10:01
maybe the fed's going to knock it down

10:03
and then then we're going to go into a

10:04
recession or depression or something

10:06
because that's the only reason a 30-year

10:08
bond would be at 2.9

10:10
when uh inflation's at 9.1 percent

10:13
doesn't make any sense

10:15
and i tell people all the time that

10:16
inflation is personal you know you need

10:18
to look at inflation not from what the

10:21
talking heads on the in the media are

10:23
telling you look at your own situation

10:25
are you going are you driving a lot do

10:27
you have are the kids still in the house

10:28
are you buying milk and cereal and all

10:30
that stuff

10:31
how does inflation truly affect you

10:34
or do you have enough money

10:37
that you're just watching it and yes you

10:39
can adjust um with any type of price

10:42
hikes etc i think people

10:44
they need to shut the television off

10:46
number one and number two they need to

10:48
rationally think about inflation and not

10:51
fall for the sales pitch of these

10:52
products that some agents will say well

10:54
it adjusts for inflation there is no

10:56
such thing

10:57
out there

10:58
i've always wanted to ask you this

10:59
because you're such a

11:02
great ambassador

11:03
for the annuity industry as a whole you

11:05
have been

11:06
um i'm hoping if there is a hall of fame

11:09
you should be in it

11:10
um for renew i mean you should be

11:12
recognized i know you have been but

11:14
there there needs to be a little bit

11:15
more reckon a recognition for what you

11:18
have done and the groundwork you have

11:19
laid the books you've written and by the

11:21
way we're going to have all of those

11:22
links on our site at the annuityman.com

11:24
and his site is tom hegna

11:26
all one word hegna

11:29
but my question to you

11:31
and i'm i'm really interested to hear it

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what frustrates you

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about the annuity industry what has

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frustrated you in the past and what

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frustrates you going forward

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well i mean

11:44
for from a producer's point of view the

11:46
compliance has just gotten to be bananas

11:49
crazy um the requirements and but but

11:52
that happened because the industry

11:54
didn't police itself very well and like

11:56
15 years ago there were products that

11:58
were bad annuities with 20-year

11:59
surrender charges they were selling to

12:00
85-year-old women and you know they

12:03
illustrated ridiculous things so the

12:05
industry kind of did it to themselves

12:08
all right but

12:09
but but

12:10
at the same time the regulators have to

12:12
realize that these products are

12:14
essential for clients and they they

12:16
can't be so anti-annuity it's almost

12:18
like the regulators

12:20
are run by a guy like ken fisher or

12:22
something you know they the regulators

12:24
need to understand that these products

12:26
are good for people they're not bad for

12:28
people and and then if there are bad

12:31
advisors punish them and get them out

12:33
but let's not put all the advisors under

12:36
this mountain of paperwork i mean now

12:38
now i mean

12:39
if somebody wants to roll a 401k into

12:41
annuity there's a stack of paperwork

12:42
about that high that has to be filled

12:44
out and so i think that's frustrating

12:46
that the lack of the policing on the

12:48
front end and then the over policing on

12:50
the back end it's very frustrating

12:53
if tom hegna was tsar of the annuity

12:56
industry for the next

12:58
five years and that would i would vote

12:59
for that tom i would be your your

13:01
assistant czar but um

13:04
what would you do

13:06
if you had that pin and that magic wand

13:08
to change things what would you change

13:10
you know i

13:12
i think i would make sure that every

13:14
advisor was trained properly because

13:16
that's part of the reason that we had a

13:18
problem there wasn't the proper training

13:20
they just said hey here's a product go

13:21
sell it to people instead of say here's

13:23
how you solve a problem and here's why

13:24
this is good and here's here's what's

13:26
guaranteed here so we're not guaranteed

13:27
here's what this fee is with that you

13:29
know so they really knew what stuff was

13:31
going on the the products i think today

13:34
are are pretty darn good i mean i i

13:36
don't see a lot of bad product out there

13:39
i mean i think so i think i think the

13:41
products are in the right but i mean i

13:43
think they could be a little more

13:44
innovative i would love to see

13:46
um you know some some

13:49
some things that they could do like put

13:51
in a sleeve where if the market goes

13:53
down something goes up maybe put in a

13:55
crypto sleeve if to give some people

13:57
some exposure that in a in with some

14:00
guarantees and i you know

14:02
those products are harder because

14:03
they're very volatile and and but i

14:05
would like to see some creativity you

14:08
know we got to bring the millennials in

14:09
i think things should be more easily

14:11
done on your phone and app and you know

14:13
hey i want to put 50 grand more in my

14:15
annuity you can't do stuff like that

14:17
it's it the industry is is kind of still

14:19
back in the 60s and 70s when everybody

14:22
else is in that you know the 2020s

14:25
i always said when i i first got out

14:28
here and decided to become the mythical

14:30
annuity man

14:31
um it surprised me how archaic the

14:34
industry was i called it the the model

14:36
of a

14:38
of the

14:38
if your people remember every town had

14:40
like a travel agency

14:42
and it was similar to that but i think

14:44
do you think kova drug

14:46
some of these carriers across the

14:47
technology finish line do you agree with

14:49
that i do i do i think it made them uh

14:52
have to do things i mean you know now

14:54
companies are bragging that you can do

14:55
it you can fill out an app on a computer

14:57
or phone we should have that 30 years

14:59
ago well some companies did have it 30

15:00
years ago but i mean

15:02
yeah so i i do think that kovit

15:04
increased the technology but i mean we

15:06
still have a long way to go on

15:07
technology i think in our industry yeah

15:10
we have so many i i mean we're we're

15:12
we're the pioneer and the technology

15:14
space director consumer and we're

15:16
approaching carriers all the time here's

15:17
what we want to do and they look at us

15:19
like we're showing paintings to blind

15:21
people they have no idea what we're

15:22
talking about so

15:23
eventually they'll catch up but um but i

15:26
but i agree i think the technology side

15:28
if i was

15:30
czar for the day i would certainly push

15:31
the companies to go in that direction i

15:33
think they're going to be drug across

15:35
that finish line just because of

15:36
consumer demand for ease of use and

15:38
things like that

15:39
anyway

15:41
do you see problems in dc i mean dc's a

15:44
mess it always is regardless of what

15:46
party you're landing on

15:48
um i know secure act 2.0 is messy i had

15:50
bob carlson on recently and he talked

15:52
about that

15:53
what are you hearing because your ears

15:55
are to the ground and people do talk to

15:57
you

15:58
well you know what's so funny is is you

16:00
go back there and and half of dc is

16:03
working to make it harder

16:05
for advisors to sell annuities because

16:07
you know they don't want to rip off old

16:09
people and stuff so they're working on

16:10
that you got a half a dc that says no we

16:12
need to add these products to 401ks we

16:14
need to get more people into and so i i

16:17
just look at this and how can two parts

16:19
of a city

16:20
be doing things that are exactly the

16:22
opposite you know we do need to get

16:24
annuities and by the way like i said i

16:26
don't sell any news but you know you

16:27
brought up a personal inflation rate dr

16:31
david babel talks about that in the baby

16:32
boomer dilemma he disclosed he had 14

16:34
not

16:48
mine are starting at available dates i

16:50
do have some that are staggered but that

16:52
however a person does it they want to

16:54
set it up so that they have increasing

16:56
income over time

16:57
no i agree with that you know because of

16:59
there's

17:00
over 10 000 10 to 12 000 baby boomers

17:02
hitting age 65 every single day

17:04
obviously

17:05
big money is noticing this the annuity

17:07
industry is still very immature from the

17:09
standpoint of sales volume and things

17:10
like that it should be a multi-trillion

17:12
dollar industry it's not for whatever

17:13
reason

17:15
we're seeing a lot of consolidation tom

17:17
we're seeing a lot of um creative

17:19
accounting creative structuring of life

17:22
insurance companies

17:23
putting them in bermuda et cetera carrie

17:26
pector of retirement income journal has

17:28
talked about the bermuda triangle of

17:30
this and he's kind of sounding the alarm

17:33
what's your take on all this uh because

17:35
there's you know the annuity industry is

17:37
wanting to get it in front of all this

17:39
money in motion

17:41
yeah i i you know having spent my entire

17:44
insurance career in triple-a rated

17:46
mutual companies

17:48
to see this bermuda stuff going on you

17:50
know a lot of warning flags are going

17:52
off in my head um

17:54
you know it's it's a lot of private

17:55
equity money and you've just seen just

17:57
in last week there were two or three

17:59
huge mergers in our industry big ones um

18:02
and i and i happen to work with a lot of

18:04
these different companies so i'm trying

18:06
to figure out what's going on because

18:07
i'm not in the loop necessarily of what

18:09
all is going on but i just know there

18:11
have been some huge um you know mergers

18:15
and acquisitions shocking ones

18:17
yeah you don't need to mention it on the

18:19
because this is kind of inside baseball

18:21
stuff that only tom and i will know

18:22
about but we do know

18:24
but it's it's interesting to see what's

18:26
happening

18:27
and you know the private equity family

18:30
office hedge fund type money big money

18:33
is sniffing around because they see

18:35
a lot of money going into these products

18:37
and obviously with um interest rates

18:39
rising

18:40
uh people are now saying okay wait a

18:42
minute i maybe can live off the interest

18:44
or maybe that that lifetime income quote

18:47
is a lot better now because

18:49
even though it's based on life expects

18:50
that interest rate is popping it just a

18:52
little bit more

18:54
um

18:55
so so a tip maybe

18:57
um

18:58
before you do business with some of

18:59
these companies look to see if their

19:01
products are approved in the state of

19:02
new york and the only reason i say that

19:04
is new york has like the strictest

19:07
insurance rules and which frustrates i

19:10
think they're way too strict in some

19:11
areas but but for this type of thing

19:14
i i think you know i'd be looking at

19:16
that and if if they can't get a policy

19:19
in the state of new york i might be a

19:20
little uh i might be a little concerned

19:23
yeah there's some

19:24
new york has some crazy rules yeah i

19:27
mean some very high high bar levels of

19:29
entry for

19:31
just it doesn't make any sense but i

19:32
agree with you that that they do have

19:35
some things that they're very hot it's

19:36
very tough to get your product approved

19:38
and when carriers come out with products

19:40
just for people to know they have to go

19:42
state by state for approval so you know

19:44
these products especially the fixed

19:46
products are regulated at the state

19:48
level these are not sec fender products

19:51
variable annuities are and some of the

19:53
buffer annuities are but but but the the

19:56
fixed annuities

19:58
are not

19:59
um

20:00
what's the positives you're seeing out

20:02
there with the industry because you're

20:03
you speak to everybody and you're you're

20:05
in the you're in the rooms with the big

20:07
grand poobahs

20:09
um what are you hearing well i i just

20:11
think um annuities are being more

20:13
accepted and people are learning that

20:14
the things that ken fisher said were

20:16
wrong and i think this stock market

20:18
volatility is helping i mean annuity

20:20
sales are at record levels or near

20:21
record levels um you know they came out

20:24
with these new uh ryla products that i

20:26
think are interesting you know let's

20:28
tell people registered index linked yeah

20:31
well it's it's a variable annuity yeah

20:33
but without the variable annuity fees

20:35
okay because um they they structure it

20:38
so that that there aren't really a lot

20:39
of fees in the product um you get

20:43
most of the upside right you know more

20:45
than an indexed annuity but then you

20:46
have to take some downside so there's

20:48
floors and there's buffers

20:50
we don't need to get that deep in the

20:51
weeds yeah and it's it's being sold

20:53
improperly as everything it's not being

20:55
explained really well i'm getting these

20:57
calls and the explanations i don't think

20:59
the advisors once again they're not

21:01
being trained real well and ryla is

21:03
registered index linked annuity correct

21:06
yeah i mean some people call them

21:08
structured annuities some people call

21:09
them

21:10
buffer annuities uh whatever but but but

21:12
the thing that's

21:13
especially now that the market's down 20

21:16
or 30 percent i think that offers a very

21:19
good entry point for these products

21:20
because they still protect you for

21:21
another 10 or 20 depending on the ones

21:24
you get and then you can get a whole lot

21:25
of upside

21:27
uh on those products from here so

21:29
you know

21:30
i i i think the industry and that i

21:33
think the fixed indexed annuity world

21:36
has cleaned up a lot i mean there's

21:37
still more to go there's still there's

21:39
still some more mopping up yeah yes

21:42
they've cleaned up a lot and some of the

21:43
products are very attractive and some of

21:45
the uncapped indexes have performed well

21:48
some haven't but some have performed

21:50
very well i mean i have one that did

21:52
over nine percent one year i mean for a

21:54
fixed product i think that's pretty darn

21:55
good no absolutely but don't you think

21:57
that the

21:59
the focus and i was talking to moshe

22:01
moleski about this the focus for

22:03
annuity carriers really is income and

22:06
innovative income products don't you

22:08
agree with that

22:10
i i do think that's that's where they're

22:12
focused because that's where yeah the

22:14
baby boomer market is going you know i

22:16
mean that that they need income in

22:17
retirement so i think i think the income

22:20
is very important

22:22
yeah one of the things he was pointing

22:23
out moshe was pointing out was carriers

22:26
are working on and this is long term so

22:28
don't call me and ask me where it is

22:30
but attaching lifetime income to

22:33
pre-existing conditions and then ramping

22:35
up those payments based upon in other

22:37
words income writer for diabetics income

22:39
writer for

22:40
pre-cancer well and that's an

22:43
interesting thought

22:44
and i like the thought yeah here's my

22:47
here's my experience in that like i was

22:49
with a company that did issue medically

22:51
sure

22:52
underwritten annuities but they'd had to

22:54
be over a million because but but but

22:55
here's here's what they found

22:57
when you do that you have to lower the

23:00
payout to the regular pool because

23:02
you're going to increase this pool see

23:04
like when they just pay everybody the

23:05
same they know some people are sick some

23:06
people are well some people are going to

23:08
live long some people aren't so that's

23:09
the challenge that's the challenge so as

23:11
soon as you take the high-risk people

23:13
out of the pool then you got to lower

23:14
the payout for the other people

23:17
yeah it's not i always tell people

23:19
annuity companies have the big buildings

23:20
for a reason yeah you know they don't

23:22
give anything away you know there's not

23:24
you know you've got to be careful when

23:25
it sounds too good to be true and you're

23:27
nudging your spouse at the bad chicken

23:28
dinner seminar

23:30
it's not too good to be true these are

23:32
contracts you have to be very rational

23:33
and pragmatic about what you're trying

23:35
to do and what you're trying to solve

23:37
for

23:38
um

23:39
but i i think it's i

23:42
i see the financial

23:44
journalists out there

23:46
being a little bit more open to at least

23:48
looking into the truth about annuities

23:51
because i'm getting a lot more

23:52
interviews and a lot more air time i'm

23:54
assuming you are as well

23:56
and they're listening they're not just

23:57
assuming

23:58
that they're all bad or they're all

24:00
expensive those those mantras that's

24:02
been out there that are so untrue

24:05
um are you seeing a shift from the

24:07
standpoint of of what the journalists

24:09
are saying even though they still don't

24:11
know what the heck they're talking about

24:12
i think so i mean there's still some bad

24:14
apples out there you know writing bad

24:16
things but like barons this this time

24:19
you know in the past barons has had an

24:20
annuity issue but then they always say

24:21
oh but you got to stay for you know but

24:23
this one was really much different in

24:25
tone i felt and i think they know that

24:28
seniors should have some money and

24:30
guaranteed life to income and it's you

24:32
know it's like um dr michael finger says

24:34
there's no debate among phds or

24:36
economists about if an annuity should be

24:38
used it's about what type and when

24:41
you know and then to me i think that's

24:42
what it's coming down to it's not that

24:43
annuities are bad now it's which annuity

24:45
should you get and when should you get

24:47
it and why you know those types of

24:48
things

24:50
a lot of the agent army out there is

24:52
aging out and they're getting older and

24:55
i think there's a there's a big push for

24:57
um you know

24:59
the legacy model of agents selling

25:01
annuities which

25:02
me and you both know if annuity

25:04
companies could figure out how not to do

25:05
that they do in the heartbeat but in in

25:08
the meantime

25:09
um

25:10
is there an issue are you hearing

25:12
rumblings that they're not replacing the

25:14
agent army as much or are they replacing

25:16
the agent army with

25:18
registered investment advisors bank

25:20
channels brokerage channels

25:22
well you know what i'm seeing is since a

25:25
lot of the mutuals have demutualized

25:27
they're they're not putting the money

25:29
into recruiting like they did they're

25:30
they're kind of going picking off the

25:32
ones from the mutuals that are still out

25:34
there but then you've got this other

25:35
thing that just happened in the past

25:37
three four five years where you've got

25:38
the the people helping people the family

25:41
first life the the um the the the world

25:44
financial group these are kind of these

25:46
multi-level um

25:48
organizations that are really recruiting

25:51
a lot of people okay

25:53
i mean that's where the recruits are

25:54
coming from they're they're building

25:56
huge huge numbers of producers because

25:59
they allow them to come in part time

26:00
which brings another danger so you know

26:03
you know about but but what i'm saying

26:04
is that's a whole thing that wasn't

26:06
happening 20 years ago i mean i guess

26:08
there was a l williams but but but this

26:10
is a real deal now that that and and the

26:13
other carriers are not recruiting i mean

26:15
you got the northwestern's the new york

26:16
life the mass mutuals and guardians

26:18
they're still doing it but outside of

26:20
that

26:21
you know there's not a lot of recruiting

26:22
going on that i'm seeing

26:24
yeah as you know i i truly believe that

26:26
agents are not needed and people say

26:28
wait a minute stan you're you're an

26:29
agent but if we're selling contractual

26:31
guarantees i think there needs there

26:33
comes a point in time that

26:35
as an industry we can create enough

26:37
layers of

26:39
compliance that it can almost so be so

26:42
direct my goal is with my company as you

26:44
know and i told you this a long time ago

26:46
you said i was you didn't say i was

26:48
crazy but you looked at me like i was

26:49
crazy but i'm used to that look for my

26:50
wife so it's no big deal

26:52
is um i do think that eventually this

26:54
will be more of a direct to consumer

26:56
product we certainly lead that way

26:59
in in all 50 states and don't meet with

27:01
any clients face to face and it's all

27:03
virtual

27:05
do you see that as a trend or is that

27:07
just am i just a unicorn out here

27:10
you know i i just think i think maybe at

27:13
the the higher end level where people

27:15
are sophisticated and they can get on an

27:17
app and they can buy it it'll work but i

27:19
do think

27:21
you know a lot of these products are

27:23
sold or not bought

27:24
they should be bought but they're not

27:26
and it takes somebody to make a phone

27:28
call and say hey what would happen if if

27:30
you died right now what happened to your

27:31
family you know people don't wake up in

27:32
the morning say gee i wonder what

27:33
happened if i died what would happen to

27:35
my family they don't they don't do that

27:36
they need somebody to stimulate them or

27:38
what happens if the market crashes stays

27:39
on for 20 years what are you going to do

27:41
you know where where is money going to

27:42
come from you know

27:44
it takes somebody to kind of shake them

27:46
a little bit i agree um

27:49
we actually trademarked the phrase where

27:50
annuities are bought not sold because

27:52
that's what we do and that's what we

27:54
pride ourselves on and it's a non-high

27:56
pressure

27:57
sales environment but i do remember when

27:58
i was with dean witter back in the day

28:01
tom

28:02
and dean winter that's when um before it

28:05
was absorbed by morgan stanley and the

28:08
first

28:09
direct you could buy stocks direct like

28:11
eight dollars a trade or whatever

28:13
you might remember that we're about the

28:14
same age and i remember the the vp of

28:18
dean witter flying in from new york and

28:20
at the time i was in some regional

28:21
office

28:22
and he flew in and he said the following

28:25
don't worry about that it's not going to

28:26
affect our business it reminded me of

28:28
the ibm ceo saying that he didn't see a

28:31
need for

28:32
um people having computers in their home

28:34
and he saw maybe a need for five

28:36
computers in the world

28:37
again stupid are we gonna look back

28:41
20 years from now 10 years from now and

28:43
go oh man i mean yeah it is direct to

28:45
consumer can we can we as an industry

28:49
make it that simple my whole thing is

28:51
hopefully

28:52
but you're saying you still think

28:54
there's going to be a layer of advice

28:55
within correct well i i you know look at

28:59
amazon or google or apple they could

29:01
come up with a direct to consumer model

29:03
imagine if you buy your annuities on

29:04
amazon you know you just say people

29:06
always ask me who's my biggest threat

29:09
like i don't i don't have any threats

29:11
out here in the annuity industry that i

29:12
can see i have some competitors that are

29:14
honorable people and i know them well

29:16
but they certainly aren't doing what

29:17
we're doing

29:18
but people say well who would scare you

29:20
at

29:21
bezos i mean veza's would

29:23
would damage the business model because

29:25
they could turn it on in a second i

29:27
think the only reason they don't is it's

29:29
just not a big enough market and there's

29:31
probably some compliance layers but i

29:33
have heard that they are they have

29:34
looked

29:35
and they're looking at that that model

29:38
especially from the life insurance side

29:39
people need to remember life insurance

29:41
companies issue annuities so

29:43
the life insurance is more of a direct

29:45
and consumer model already

29:47
um but you know and look what new york

29:50
life's doing through aarp that's direct

29:52
to consumer there's nothing here and

29:54
they've been doing that forever they've

29:55
been doing it for a long time yeah i

29:57
know i agree with that i remember doing

29:58
a aar speaking at an aarp national

30:01
convention and the new york life booth

30:03
was slamming

30:04
um but yeah they've been doing that a

30:07
long long time just you know that did

30:09
cause some agent conflict at first

30:11
because you know somebody was a client

30:13
and the agent was talking to him and

30:14
then they end up buying direct and but

30:16
um they worked out some ways to mitigate

30:18
that with with the agents and so they're

30:21
they're living that right now with uh

30:23
both sides and with very little conflict

30:25
very little conflict um well so they

30:28
broke through

30:29
the work yeah the big brokerage firms

30:31
did that too merrill lynch does that

30:32
where you can buy merrell direct

30:35
or you use the the highfalutin advisors

30:38
in the marble office i mean you know

30:40
things are changing and i do think as

30:42
this generation the older generation

30:45
passes away dies off that with each

30:48
coming generation um

30:52
you know they're a little bit more

30:53
technology savvy you know i remember

30:55
when i started first doing youtube

30:56
videos and i do more youtube videos than

30:58
anybody in the annuity space

31:00
by a mile people say well it's not gonna

31:02
work cause people don't watch videos

31:04
older people i'm like you wanna you

31:05
wanna bet i mean i really believe that

31:08
i don't think i think the seniors are

31:11
technology savvy and they're they're

31:12
saying bring it on in most cases my age

31:15
let me think about it i i had to work on

31:17
my garage door opener one day where do i

31:19
go i go to youtube i type in the model

31:20
number there's somebody there telling me

31:22
how to fix my garage door so i i mean i

31:25
use it all the time and you know i've

31:27
got hundreds of youtube videos as well

31:29
and and i get i get people from around

31:32
the world that watch those things and

31:33
then they'll comment or they'll ask a

31:34
question or something it's absolutely

31:36
yeah i mean at the time of this taping

31:38
we have over 600 we do 25 a month and

31:41
we just we just crank them out based

31:43
upon what people want to hear

31:45
what's the boogie man

31:47
for the annuity industry that we're not

31:50
thinking about right here that could

31:52
that could really hurt things because

31:54
these are confidence products

31:56
yeah i mean

31:58
you know if there was a significant

32:00
market

32:02
black swan that nobody saw or something

32:04
that that that that caused significant

32:07
financial damage

32:08
to

32:09
the bond market or things that you know

32:12
insurance companies own

32:14
but i i've always said

32:16
if

32:17
you know

32:20
when something really bad happens what

32:22
you're going to want is you're going to

32:23
want guns bullets water and toilet paper

32:25
toothpaste you know that's true if it

32:27
gets so bad you're not going to worry

32:28
about that you're going to worry about

32:29
this other stuff i mean if there was a

32:31
war if there was a you know major major

32:34
meltdown or if one of these you know

32:37
hedge funds went bust and a bunch of

32:40
insurance people or london the companies

32:42
went under and then you know the whole

32:44
industry got tarred with that that could

32:46
be bad i mean so there are things out

32:48
there that could happen but

32:50
you know what um

32:52
i still have the majority of my money in

32:54
the life insurance industry and i think

32:56
it's the safest place for me to have

32:57
mine so that's that's the decision i

32:59
made when people ask you about state

33:01
guarantee funds obviously we can't as an

33:03
industry use that in a sales

33:05
presentation for obvious reasons it's

33:06
not fdic insurance it's not as strong as

33:09
that what do you tell people about state

33:11
guarantee funds and how to view that

33:14
when positioning themselves in annuities

33:17
i mean you know it's

33:20
it's a nice to have you know i mean if

33:23
you have 250 or 300 000 depending on the

33:25
state per contract per person or

33:27
whatever i mean maybe if you're gonna

33:30
buy five annuities you put them at 300

33:32
300 300 300 with different carriers or

33:34
something i mean it's just another level

33:37
is it gonna be there i i think it might

33:40
be because they they assess all the

33:42
insurance companies there's money there

33:43
to help protect

33:45
um so i mean i just think it is another

33:47
level of protection i i don't talk about

33:49
it in any of my talks but you know i'm

33:51
aware of it and uh

33:53
and i think uh i think it's just another

33:55
level of protection i tell people it's

33:58
like going to your your um

34:01
family reunion and your uncle fred's

34:03
there and he has on suspenders and a

34:05
belt yeah

34:06
just to make sure you know

34:08
it's belt and suspenders yeah um that's

34:11
right but i always tell people if you're

34:12
going to buy an annuity of any type

34:15
you base your decision on the claims fan

34:17
ability of that carrier and the type of

34:19
annuity that you're buying so if you're

34:21
buying a lifetime income stream you need

34:22
to step up plate

34:24
and and get a solid company there could

34:27
be some some specific situations that

34:29
carriers at a little bit less than a

34:31
plus rate it could make sense at the

34:33
short shorter term duration migas i know

34:35
that we look at that from that claims

34:37
pain ability i really tell people you're

34:39
either going to marry him or you're

34:40
going to date him if we're going to date

34:41
him we're going to analyze it

34:42
differently than if we're going to marry

34:44
them

34:45
but

34:46
you know these are confidence products

34:48
and i do think there's some

34:48
self-policing within the industry that's

34:50
positive i wanted to pivot because in

34:53
the past we have talked about

34:55
crypto and you do have some in your

34:57
portfolio on a personal basis but you

34:59
did mention early in the podcast that

35:02
the possibility of crypto entering the

35:05
annuity space

35:06
that just seems a little far off to me

35:08
but maybe not what do you think well it

35:10
might be far off and as far as crypto

35:12
i've only said one percent of a

35:13
portfolio that's what i did one percent

35:16
so i'm not saying put thirty percent

35:18
twenty percent

35:19
i said one percent because one percent

35:22
if it goes to zero isn't going to hurt

35:24
me but if it goes to a million bucks a

35:26
bitcoin it'll help me and that's why i

35:28
that's why i keyed on the one percent

35:29
what i would like about you know i could

35:31
imagine a fixed indexed annuity or

35:33
something like that that had a crypto

35:35
sleeve that had no downside risk gives

35:38
you some upside of the i mean i think

35:40
it'd be interesting i i just don't know

35:42
because it's so volatile i think the

35:43
options would be so expensive that

35:45
they'd have to put the cap pretty low

35:47
and then then it would then it wouldn't

35:49
no and it wouldn't work you'd want

35:50
something that you could make a lot and

35:52
not lose you know that's that's that's

35:53
what you'd want but uh you know i think

35:56
we're a ways off from that because

35:57
because of the volatility of it the

35:59
the premiums for to protect that would

36:01
be pretty high but me and you both know

36:03
that if something like that came out

36:05
just just because it would be so new

36:08
they'd sell it to death i mean it would

36:10
be i mean i think it would capture the

36:12
millennials and the generation xyz i

36:14
don't know if the baby boomers would put

36:15
a lot of money in it but you know the

36:16
younger people might you know it just

36:18
it's just interesting maybe it would

36:20
start in a variable before it go to

36:21
index i don't know and i'm sure they'd

36:23
have to put limits that you can't put

36:25
more than three percent or five percent

36:27
or whatever right you wouldn't you

36:28
wouldn't want somebody put 100 in crypto

36:30
in an annuity and then they'd be bashing

36:32
annuities for the rest of their lives

36:33
because the crypto didn't perform you

36:34
know

36:36
when people are looking at annuity types

36:38
and i always say they primarily solve

36:40
for four things principal protection

36:42
income for life legacy long-term care

36:44
just an easy acronym pill

36:46
what do you tell people to be aware of

36:49
as they're shopping

36:52
are there any anything from the because

36:54
our most of our listeners are consumers

36:57
across the country

36:58
what would you tell them going into

37:01
you know if they're if they're new to

37:03
the annuity industry what to start

37:05
looking for

37:06
so i i look at it this way when i when i

37:09
buy annuities i own 11. number one i

37:11
want to know the company strong i want

37:12
and and everybody can have their level

37:14
of strength i have mine already set

37:16
pretty high but you want to deal with a

37:17
strong carrier you want to have um a

37:20
good rate

37:21
you know you don't want to buy a junkie

37:22
product you you want to know what your

37:24
fees are are there fees or not fees most

37:27
annuities are not fee products a lot of

37:28
people don't know that right you want to

37:30
know are there surrender charges are

37:32
there fees are there hidden fees what

37:33
you know disclose all the fees you know

37:36
and then

37:37
um

37:38
i don't even know if you can do that

37:40
without using some sort of software you

37:43
know whether it's you know um

37:46
uh what's canax or you know there's a

37:49
duties genius they're they're they're

37:51
software out there that you can say i'm

37:53
a male i'm sorry beauty rate watch yeah

37:55
i have a hundred thousand dollars i i'm

37:57
interested in income or i'm interested

37:59
in growth whatever and you push a button

38:01
and now it lists the carries and they

38:02
say i only want to deal with the carrier

38:04
that's rated above or whatever you put

38:05
that in boom now it narrows it i don't

38:07
want to have any fees boom that narrows

38:09
it i i won't have a surrender charge

38:11
over five years whatever you put in the

38:12
parameters and now you're dealing with

38:14
eight or ten instead of

38:16
eight thousand right

38:18
no i agree i agree with that do you

38:20
think back in the day and a few years

38:22
back

38:23
there was some pending legislation and

38:25
carriers kind of overreact and said okay

38:28
all agents need to list and show their

38:30
commission we eagerly and happily did

38:32
that we do that anyway

38:34
um even though all annuity commissions

38:36
are built into the product pay from the

38:38
reserves and it's in that transaction

38:39
view do you think that would help the

38:41
industry from a perception standpoint

38:42
for

38:43
for agents to be required agents of our

38:47
advisors to be required to show the

38:49
compensation

38:51
i you know i'm not against it i i just i

38:54
don't since the company since the

38:56
compensation does not come out of the

38:58
client's you know pocket sure i'm less

39:01
inclined to say it's an issue because

39:03
you know yes the price the the product

39:04
is priced to pay the commission but the

39:06
commission doesn't come out of the

39:07
clients hundred thousand dollars that

39:09
they put and and yet the all kinds of

39:11
these financial advisors who hated me oh

39:13
the fees are high they're going to take

39:14
so much money out of your account

39:15
they're not taking a single penny out of

39:16
your account so so that bugs me um but i

39:20
do think there needs to be transparency

39:22
i do think people need to know what

39:23
they're buying

39:24
i i hope that the financial advisors who

39:26
aren't using annuities show how many

39:29
millions of dollars they're going to

39:30
charge in fees over the lifetime of

39:31
their business which they're not showing

39:33
that right now they'll show oh we charge

39:35
one percent well one percent plus this

39:37
plus this one's and then you multiply

39:38
that out over 30 or 40 years they're

39:40
going to pay a lot of money and fees to

39:42
those other advisors as well when i also

39:44
tell people that

39:46
annuities all types there's not just one

39:48
type i like when people come in what's

39:50
the best annuity i'm like what are you

39:52
talking about you know

39:53
um

39:54
you know it's it's you have to answer

39:55
two questions with us what do you want

39:57
the money to you know what do you want

39:59
the money to contractually do and when

40:00
you want those contractual guarantees to

40:02
start but i do think the annuity

40:04
industry has one thing that no other

40:05
product has that sets it apart that no

40:07
one really talks about that's me and you

40:09
and it's the free looked free look

40:11
period you literally can buy it or be

40:14
pressured into buying something

40:15
and get out of it without any type of

40:18
you don't have to give any type of

40:20
reason you just call the annuity and say

40:21
i'm within the free look time period

40:22
sending my money back and without

40:24
hesitation without hesitation

40:27
every single carrier will do that

40:29
shouldn't that be something we kind of

40:31
wear on our sleeve a little bit more as

40:32
an industry

40:34
well you know when i was an advisor i

40:36
would say that to people and say look

40:37
you know you're not making a final

40:39
decision today let's get the paperwork

40:41
in and you do have a free look provision

40:43
and whether that it's different i think

40:45
by state and by product it used to be

40:46
you know 30 days and i think it's 21

40:48
days i don't even know how many days but

40:50
you do have a a pretty long time that

40:53
you can review the contract make sure

40:54
it's going to do what you want it to do

40:56
but but i think if the product

40:58
is

40:59
positioned properly up front like i did

41:02
not have hardly any free looks in it in

41:05
my entire career so absolutely we don't

41:07
know

41:08
um because i i tried to position it and

41:11
so people knew what they were buying and

41:12
then that there was no hocus pocus here

41:14
here's what it is here's what it does

41:16
here's why it does it here's what it'll

41:17
do for you benefits here's the

41:19
limitations everything yeah and you know

41:21
if it's if it's framed properly there's

41:23
not going to be a lot of free looks

41:25
one thing i was going to ask you about

41:27
too because most most the fixed annuity

41:29
space which is migas and speas and diaz

41:31
and culax

41:32
there's no nuance i mean that's just

41:34
straight contractual guarantees they're

41:35
very simple to understand you can

41:37
explain them to a nine-year-old no

41:38
offense to nine-year-olds

41:40
but where a lot of the industry gets

41:42
this bad reputation is in the index

41:43
annuity space

41:45
because it is one of the higher

41:47
commission products out there we sell a

41:49
ton of them just because we use them as

41:50
a delivery system for

41:53
income benefits if that's what you need

41:55
we but

41:56
there's a lot of nuance in the selling

41:59
process with with the indexed annuity

42:01
space

42:02
how would you clean that up is there

42:04
some type of procedure protocols that

42:06
you would put in place to clean up

42:09
indexed annuity sales because the

42:11
majority of calls that i get from

42:13
dissatisfied customers are people that

42:15
have purchased these under

42:18
false and misleading

42:20
hopes and dreams what do you think

42:23
yeah i mean

42:24
the thing about the index space is

42:28
there is complexity because you've got

42:30
different um caps you've got different

42:32
um

42:33
uh

42:34
you know

42:35
spring to point

42:37
you know

42:37
two year three year one year

42:40
750 plus yeah indexes yeah yeah i mean

42:45
and that's again

42:47
where i think if you had software to

42:48
help filter it out and i mean i don't

42:50
think the industry needs 700 indexes i

42:52
don't think they don't you know let's

42:54
take the hundred best ones over the past

42:56
10 years or something to use those or

42:58
something i don't know i mean

42:59
so so there and then there's surrender

43:02
charges and then there's some optional

43:04
riders and you know then there's a

43:06
there's an index income base and then a

43:08
benefit bait i mean

43:10
upfront bonuses really get in the way

43:12
too yeah because those are missiled

43:15
um i don't know what to do with that

43:17
other than it's sad because i always

43:19
tell people i'm not down on index and

43:20
they're they're they're they're a good

43:22
product they're just not too good to be

43:23
true

43:24
yeah i mean and i think you're right by

43:26
selling the contractual guarantees if

43:28
you get more than that great but here's

43:29
what you can count on let's count that

43:32
as extra that's the play check this is

43:34
the paycheck let's make sure we get the

43:35
paycheck covered if you get some extra

43:37
play checks that's okay and by the way

43:39
he just mentioned his book playtex and

43:40
pasta that's one of them yeah yeah one

43:42
that's the one that i really like um all

43:44
of them are good but that's the one i

43:46
read on the plane one time i said i

43:47
gotta track tom hegna down what the heck

43:50
um but we'll have all those links on our

43:51
site to where you can buy those books

43:53
and if you're a consumer those are kind

43:55
of must reads

43:56
as you go into chapter two of your life

43:58
and retirement you know it is somewhat

44:00
of a part-time job to do it right and to

44:03
make sure that you're making decisions

44:05
on your terms and your time frame

44:07
etc what else is going on with you tom

44:10
well you know for 30 years i got paid

44:12
for what i did now i get paid for what i

44:14
know and who i know kind of is what it

44:16
is

44:17
and so but i did i did a meeting today

44:19
in i guess it was yesterday in chicago

44:22
but i was here and they had everybody

44:23
there at the meeting they had some live

44:25
speakers and then i came in through

44:27
virtual and that's what i'm doing

44:28
because what we've done is i've raised

44:30
my in person way up because i just don't

44:32
want to be on the road and when you know

44:33
when they sell them the price they go

44:34
that's crazy well he'll tie in virtually

44:36
for a lot less than that and so we've

44:38
shifted it and it's really been working

44:40
and so i'm doing most of it virtual and

44:43
like i'm doing

44:44
i'm doing webinars today i'm doing stuff

44:46
and then i can still go and hit the golf

44:48
ball a little bit you know if i need to

44:49
so there's a learjet pricing model for

44:52
tom hegna i like that here's the learjet

44:54
package you want the learjet package mr

44:56
johnson mr johnson ceo you know i really

45:00
want to fly private but i just can't

45:02
make the numbers work like i couldn't

45:03
make the numbers work in my for country

45:05
clubs i was working now the country club

45:07
numbers work but but they do say if you

45:09
don't fly first class your kids will so

45:12
so my wife told me last trip we booked

45:14
first class to the likes i always tell

45:16
people that my kids are gonna like

45:18
helicopter into my funeral and then

45:20
drive off in a lamborghini

45:22
um that's for sure especially my

45:24
youngest one who's uh lives in manhattan

45:26
and

45:27
and loves that kind of life and but then

45:28
again i provide it for her so

45:31
um thomas it's been great having you on

45:33
i do have one last question as you know

45:36
with every let every time you're on

45:37
there's one last question it's called

45:38
the mic drop moment no pressure at all

45:41
to be fantastic

45:42
but um you know words of wisdom as we go

45:46
out at the time of this taping were

45:47
typically a few weeks out before it

45:49
releases but it's a little chaotic but

45:51
uh words of wisdom to

45:53
the people out there that that are

45:56
either thinking about retirement already

45:58
in retirement contemplating retirement

46:01
or just planning for it what would you

46:02
tell them so here's a simple four steps

46:04
and that that's how paychecks and play

46:06
checks ends number one cover your basic

46:09
living expenses in retirement with

46:10
guaranteed lifetime income number two

46:12
optimize the rest of your portfolio to

46:14
protect yourself against inflation

46:16
number three you must have a plan for

46:18
long-term care no retirement plan is

46:20
complete without a plan for long-term

46:21
care so one thing people forget about

46:22
that wipes them out and number four the

46:25
most efficient way to pass wealth to

46:26
children grandchildren charities

46:28
and spouses is with life insurance i

46:30
tell people all the time don't leave

46:31
your kids any money you're supposed to

46:33
spend all your money leave them life

46:34
insurance you can do that for pennies on

46:36
the dollar so those are the ways to get

46:38
the most for the least in retirement

46:40
that's a good news i and that's that's a

46:42
that's a very good way to end it i

46:43
always tell people life insurance is the

46:44
best return on investment you will never

46:46
see right because you will be dead

46:49
and that's the motivation from stan the

46:51
nudity man i want to thank everybody

46:53
that's listening to us on all the major

46:54
podcast platforms and all the people

46:56
watching us on the fun with annuities

46:58
youtube channel thanking tom hagno once

47:00
again for gracing us with his presence

47:02
he is fantastic he's one of my favorite

47:04
people if not my favorite person in the

47:06
annuity industry and i will see you next

47:09
week

47:14
thanks for listening to fun with

47:16
annuities please hit the subscribe

47:18
button and make sure to go to my site at

47:20
the annuityman.com where you can run

47:23
your own spea dia and q lat quotes and

47:26
see a live feed of the best mega fix

47:28
rates in the country and even get

47:31
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47:33
you can also sign up for my six annuity

47:36
owner's manual books and i'll ship them

47:38
for free and under no obligation i also

47:41
encourage you to schedule a one-on-one

47:43
call with me stan the annuity man so we

47:46
can have a full discussion of your

47:48
specific situation it will be the best

47:51
brutally factual and truthful advice you

47:54
will ever get and that's one guarantee

47:57
you should definitely take advantage of

47:58
so join me next time for the number one

48:01
annuity podcast on the planet

48:03
fun

48:04
with annuities

48:08
[Music]