Ted Benna: The Inside Scoop From The Founder Of The 401k

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

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host stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent

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license in all 50 states so glad that

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you joined me welcome to everyone on all

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major podcast platforms and on the fun

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with annuities youtube channel where you

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can see my guest and i interact facially

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you know we we're interacting that way

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we're having some fun i am honored uh to

1:01
have a person on today that is one of a

1:03
kind uh he is he's been called the

1:06
founder of the 401k if you have a 401k

1:09
this is the guy behind it his name is

1:10
ted bennett and i really am excited for

1:13
him to come on and tell his story

1:16
welcome ted to fun

1:18
with annuities i really appreciate you

1:20
being here well thank you very much dan

1:22
it's definitely my pleasure to be with

1:24
you today

1:26
ted's backgrounds a little bit let me go

1:27
into your background real quick ted and

1:29
then i want the stories behind the

1:30
background so um as i referred to him

1:33
earlier as the father of the 401k he's

1:35
called that because he created

1:38
and gained irs approval of the first

1:39
401k savings plan and he's received

1:43
numerous citations and awards because of

1:45
that you know innovation awards etc um

1:49
in fact he has a lifetime achievement

1:51
award by defined contribution news he's

1:53
authored five books including two of my

1:56
favorites 401k and iras for dummies and

1:58
401k 40 years later which gives away

2:02
how long ted's been hammering away at

2:04
this

2:06
401k issue so ted

2:08
from that can you tell us a little bit

2:10
of background of how

2:12
how it all started and and what what

2:15
brought you to the 401k and creating and

2:18
gaining approval

2:20
from the irs for that first 401k savings

2:22
plan sure stan well my

2:25
professional background i was a benefit

2:27
consultant and

2:29
specialized in the retirement area and

2:32
so my work involved helping employers

2:35
design and set up retirement programs

2:38
and

2:39
you know that was what i got paid to do

2:42
you know i was a techie guy you know new

2:44
to law

2:45
so

2:47
what

2:48
generally happened was i got assignments

2:50
where employers wanted to accomplish

2:52
something

2:53
and i had to figure out how to you know

2:55
to be able to accomplish

2:58
you know what it was they were looking

2:59
to achieve and you know that was what

3:02
happened with this

3:03
401k thing

3:05
there was actually a philadelphia area

3:07
bank that

3:08
hired me to do some restructuring of

3:10
their retirement program and

3:13
without getting buried in the details as

3:15
i was working through that

3:17
i realized this section of law could uh

3:20
enable them to achieve you know what

3:22
they wanted to accomplish what the ceo

3:24
wanted to accomplish

3:26
and the key

3:28
was

3:30
the employees were going to give up a

3:31
cash bonus

3:33
and have it be put into a retirement

3:35
program you know that was the basic

3:37
issue

3:38
but in order for that to work

3:41
you know i had to get

3:43
a significant number of the bottom two

3:45
thirds paid employees would be willing

3:48
to do it

3:49
and i knew that just getting a little

3:51
tax break wasn't going to cut it so

3:53
that was when i came up with the idea of

3:56
well let's add a matching contribution

3:59
so you know those that are willing to do

4:02
this

4:03
they'll get a double incentive they'll

4:04
get some tax break but they'll get some

4:06
additional money from the bank

4:09
and

4:10
you know once that piece came to mind

4:12
they then realized well we could design

4:14
this thing

4:15
so employees could put money in pre-tax

4:18
from their own paychecks

4:20
now i got to go back to legislation you

4:23
know the legislation stand that added

4:25
this section k under 401 was passed in

4:29
1978

4:31
well it didn't

4:32
include provisions for any of those two

4:34
things in it

4:36
but it didn't say thou shalt not

4:39
so i chose to take care of the more

4:40
aggressive interpretation

4:43
um we presented to the bank and their

4:46
attorney shot it down because they he

4:48
didn't want to want them being pioneers

4:51
so we eventually did a plan for the bank

4:53
two or three years later okay but you

4:56
know the the first actual

4:58
401k savings plans with matching

5:01
contribution and employee pre-tax

5:03
contributions we did for our own little

5:06
consulting company

5:07
and uh you know that began january 1 in

5:09
1981

5:11
yeah that was the very first plan

5:13
what was the c you mentioned the ceo's

5:15
goals when you talked to him what

5:18
what were those goals were they just

5:20
were they general broad or were they

5:23
specific did he have a vision for the

5:25
future that he didn't know he had at

5:27
that time

5:28
well

5:29
there were two things

5:31
stan

5:32
you're like

5:33
many banks historically back in that

5:35
time they paid a cash bonus

5:38
you know when banks initiated those cash

5:40
bonus plans they were supposed to be

5:42
tied to profits you know you may get it

5:44
you may not like at the end of the year

5:46
they were given a cash back the end of

5:47
the year got it the reality is they got

5:49
ingrained

5:51
you know sure might have gotten better

5:54
that yeah we got to do this so they're

5:55
going to be mad at us like right right

5:58
so that was one reason i just wanted to

5:59
look uh get away from but the other one

6:02
was

6:02
marginal tax rates for higher paid that

6:05
time we're in seventy percent range

6:08
so he personally you know he got his two

6:11
weeks or whatever it was bonus yet he's

6:13
given uncle sam seventy percent of it

6:15
okay

6:16
uh so that was a factor sure and then

6:19
and then the other thing

6:21
he was looking to grow this was a

6:22
suburban philadelphia bank he's looking

6:24
to grow that bank and he had to attract

6:27
talent from larger banks

6:30
and larger banks had you know something

6:32
similar you know that he had to

6:34
be able to

6:36
you know to offer you know to help

6:37
attract them so it's a combination of

6:39
those things

6:41
so he was thinking of it

6:44
from a tax standpoint but also a little

6:46
bit more

6:47
um futuristic of being able to recruit

6:51
and recruit people away

6:52
um

6:54
that's that's fascinating

6:56
do you still have contact with that ceo

6:58
is that ceo still alive

7:00
i can't imagine how no

7:02
okay

7:03
um

7:05
this is intriguing i think it's a great

7:06
story for people to to know because if

7:09
you have a 401k and most people that

7:11
work and work for companies that that

7:14
offer that this is the guy that started

7:16
it the matching contribution part i'm

7:18
fascinated was that something you had in

7:21
your head obviously did you do that for

7:23
your firm and was it just something that

7:25
you came up with that that's a very

7:28
that's a very interesting

7:31
idea out of the blue how did that happen

7:34
i actually wasn't totally elvis blue

7:36
okay

7:37
uh because we we added our company

7:40
our little company and then most fortune

7:42
500 companies said what were known as

7:44
thrift and savings plans sure already in

7:47
place and what happened with them is

7:49
employees put money in after tax

7:52
their own money you rather than pre-tax

7:54
and they got a match from their company

7:56
yeah we had one of those uh so we we

7:59
converted that plan

8:01
so that employee money rather than going

8:03
in

8:04
after tax was now going to go in pre-tax

8:08
you know becoming

8:10
technical actually technically what it

8:12
became is a salary reduction when you

8:15
sign up for a 401k

8:17
you're actually signing up to have your

8:19
employer reduce your salary and have

8:22
that become an employer contribution

8:24
technically from a tax point of view

8:26
that's what we did

8:29
but long term you've done so many people

8:31
a favor

8:32
in my opinion

8:34
to be you know disciplined

8:36
to join the the 401k defined

8:39
contribution plan didn't have the

8:41
company's match

8:43
and

8:44
honestly you should be getting thank you

8:45
letters from

8:47
10 000 baby boomers that that hit 65

8:49
every single day i mean they don't know

8:51
that hopefully this that's the reason i

8:53
want to have you on is because

8:56
i mean it's like someone saying well you

8:57
know um edison uh he did he invented the

9:00
light bulb and you know we use lights

9:01
every day

9:02
ted bennett invented the 401k and we use

9:04
401ks every day

9:06
and this is affecting people's

9:08
retirement and i just think that

9:10
um i need to be your pr agent uh i've

9:12
just come to the conclusion i need to

9:14
take you on the road but i i really

9:15
appreciate that the the the what you've

9:17
done

9:18
uh my employees are gonna listen to this

9:21
and everyone's going to listen to this

9:22
i'm going to make my employees and say

9:24
listen you got a 401k here's the reason

9:26
why here's the guy

9:28
here's here's the reason why it's even

9:29
here and i think that

9:31
in the financial world um there there

9:33
should be and the you've won all kinds

9:36
of awards but you should have i wish you

9:38
to named it the bena instead of the 401k

9:41
how did 401k happen

9:44
it's the section of the code

9:46
so that was the code

9:48
and it's a fluke politically that's the

9:50
amazing thing about this tell that story

9:53
well i have it covered in the uh in

9:55
detail in the 401k 40 years later book

9:58
um yeah

10:00
this this was never intended to be a big

10:02
deal

10:02
you know the estimated

10:05
revenue loss was you know maybe a few

10:08
million dollars

10:09
so the irs stop for a second the irs

10:12
underestimated this whole thing well

10:14
it's actually congress you know the

10:16
budget office sure it has to strike what

10:18
tax impact they expect to happen

10:21
they didn't think this would be a big

10:22
deal and

10:24
frankly it wouldn't have been had i not

10:26
you know

10:27
added two of what i did uh you probably

10:30
would not have been a big deal and

10:32
what's amazing about it

10:34
stan is my best guess is it's

10:36
accumulated about 15 trillion dollars

10:39
say that again

10:40
about 15

10:42
trillion dollars thank you i just want

10:44
you to emphasize the t thank you very

10:46
much you know the money that's been

10:47
rolled into iras and so forth but you

10:49
know the biggest benefit of it uh

10:52
stan is it's actually helped convert

10:55
spenders into savers yes

10:57
you know true me personally you know

10:59
most employees would not do this if they

11:03
had to do it on their own and you know

11:05
they accomplish it because it comes off

11:07
the paycheck first

11:09
and um you know

11:10
enables them to become successful savers

11:13
and you know that's really what i

11:15
appreciate most about it

11:17
you have

11:18
i guess i was thinking the correlation

11:20
it's hard to even come up with one

11:22
that's that significant of what you've

11:24
done from the standpoint of affecting

11:26
people's lives i think the only thing i

11:28
can think of that would even be close if

11:30
you came up with a pill that made people

11:32
lose weight

11:33
that would be the only thing in my

11:35
opinion that would be even close

11:37
to the contributions you've made to

11:39
people's everyday lives and retirements

11:42
which is amazing

11:44
um you're one of the most humble people

11:47
i've met

11:48
and i appreciate that but there's

11:50
there's some reason for you to gloat a

11:52
little bit here

11:54
well there's a reason to reason to be

11:56
humble uh stan and

11:58
you know it's been covered in interviews

12:00
and in the book as well i um

12:03
i don't think i came up with this on my

12:05
own you know my faith is a big part of

12:07
my life and

12:08
i definitely feel i got some

12:10
divine help on this one for sure

12:13
wasn't smart enough to do it on my own

12:15
interesting

12:17
so that helps me from getting too big of

12:19
a head i gotta keep that in mind i

12:21
understand that but i really want my

12:23
listeners and viewers to up to to

12:26
realize who is speaking

12:27
today

12:28
um and and the impact that he has had on

12:33
the united states of america

12:35
um

12:36
ongoing whether he's going to be alive

12:38
or not it's going to be ongoing his

12:40
legacy is going to be unmatched i don't

12:42
think there's anybody that has this type

12:44
of legacy especially in the financial

12:46
industry that i can think of that's the

12:48
reason that um

12:49
that i wanted him on let's uh

12:52
let's talk about the 401k from the

12:54
standpoint of the united states have

12:57
other countries followed the benna

13:00
model

13:03
uh

13:03
there are some

13:05
other countries i had the opportunity to

13:06
visit japan a whole bunch of years ago

13:09
you know when they were looking into

13:11
doing something similar and you know

13:13
australia's uh had a

13:16
similar system argentina you know some

13:18
other companies uh countries you've got

13:21
contacted uh somebody from you know

13:23
israeli government at one time as well

13:26
and

13:27
uh you know so there are definitely

13:28
others uh you know who have some type of

13:31
similar program

13:34
tell us about the working with the irs

13:36
i'm sure that was just a walk in the

13:38
park and just some of the best times of

13:39
your life um and the fact that they're

13:41
so open to listen and they use their

13:43
mouth and ears and in proportion

13:45
listening first of course

13:47
without any type of interjection of

13:49
ideas or or no i'm joking of course

13:52
can you can you explain

13:55
how that went because

13:58
that had to be

14:00
a challenge well a significant issue

14:03
here was my senior partner was concerned

14:06
you know the once treasury began to hear

14:08
about this that they would shut it down

14:10
so so we happened to be fortunate uh you

14:12
know this was happening at the time

14:14
ronald reagan uh won his first term

14:18
and we had a client of ours drew lewis

14:21
who got appointed as secretary of

14:22
transportation

14:24
so we met with him and he introduced us

14:27
over to the treasury folks and

14:30
so as a result of that stan i had the

14:32
opportunity to

14:34
um dialogue with the guy who was

14:36
actually writing the regulations in

14:38
treasury

14:39
yeah that was going to be the key in

14:40
terms of what happened here

14:42
and you know i was able to explain to

14:44
him what we were doing

14:46
and how we could accomplish it in fact

14:49
if the rakes didn't exactly support this

14:52
the biggest issue was employee salary

14:54
reduction contributions

14:56
that was the biggest issue

14:58
and i i didn't get any insight to him in

15:00
terms of

15:01
what the regulations were going to

15:03
include but

15:04
you know fortunately they came out in

15:06
1981 they're supporting um both the

15:09
matching and the employee salary

15:12
reduction contributions and

15:14
you know once that happened why you know

15:16
it was

15:17
you know full steam ahead at that point

15:21
going back to the original company

15:24
how did you

15:25
how did you

15:26
go to the employees who were used to

15:28
getting a cash bonus and i'm assuming

15:30
there was some pushback how did you

15:31
convince them how were they convinced

15:33
to be pioneers themselves and by the way

15:36
them accepting the 401k outline and

15:39
structure that you put together with the

15:41
ceo of the bank for the first one

15:44
first official one outside of your

15:46
company how did you how did you go to

15:48
them and say hey this is a good idea

15:50
well i i actually i was one of the

15:52
things that led to coming up with the

15:54
matching contribution was because

15:57
a couple years before that we did

15:59
something similar with another bank

16:02
when you know before 401k was enacted in

16:06
in there what happened was the employees

16:09
gave up you know the whole cash bonus it

16:11
was eliminated

16:13
and without their choice went off into

16:15
retirement program

16:17
i had to face that audience and tell

16:20
them hey your bonus is now going to be

16:23
put away for your retirement uh and i

16:26
didn't get all clapping and standing up

16:28
and saying wonderful okay you didn't get

16:30
a standing ovation test did not get a

16:32
standing ovation

16:33
so so i had that experience which is why

16:36
when i was now working with this

16:38
subsequent bank

16:40
i did not want to repeat that and said

16:43
hey

16:44
first of all the law changed so now i

16:46
could go out and say well you can decide

16:49
you can decide whether you want to give

16:51
up any of this cash bonus or not

16:55
and how much of it if you want and if

16:57
you do give it up addition to tax break

16:59
you're going to get some more money from

17:01
the bank so that sure totally changed

17:04
the dynamics you know it became a matter

17:06
of choice

17:08
rather than something was mandated for

17:10
them

17:11
but they still were pioneers they still

17:13
had to buy in

17:15
trust you

17:16
trust the fact that the employer was

17:18
going to match there was a lot of leaps

17:21
of faith

17:22
from the employee ease to accept it

17:25
yeah

17:26
i actually uh stand once we first

17:29
started to get this publicized

17:31
uh you know the first article ran was in

17:33
philadelphia inquirer

17:34
and the writer of that article got lots

17:36
of calls saying

17:38
from you know tax experts hey this can't

17:40
be done you know it's not legal

17:42
okay

17:43
uh i'll give you another story um

17:46
you know just

17:47
how

17:49
this was viewed uh apprentice hall is

17:51
one of the tax services

17:53
you know they write tax manuals you know

17:56
they go to people that work in tax law

17:58
i got invited to come up and address

18:01
them the other executive newsletter

18:03
group

18:04
and i thought i was going to just meet

18:05
with the head of that unit and one of

18:07
his

18:08
techie writer guys

18:10
so my senior partner and i went up and

18:13
he said well come on we want to meet

18:14
some other people so i go in and i walk

18:17
into a big auditorium it's filled with

18:20
probably 20 or 30

18:21
of their people who write this tax stuff

18:25
you know and they're sitting there man

18:26
they got their arms crossed when i get

18:29
up in front of them and it's like hey

18:31
who's this heck you know coming in here

18:33
telling us

18:35
well

18:36
about half an hour or so in the meeting

18:38
the discussion shifted to hey how can we

18:40
get premise hall to do this for us it

18:43
was pretty funny to see that up so

18:44
that's kind of stuff we got uh another

18:47
example is bethan steele was one of the

18:49
first big companies i worked out i think

18:52
you know i mean met with their senior

18:54
execs and said hey look it's time just

18:57
for your employees to start saving for

18:58
retirement you know because a savings

19:01
for retirement was unheard of in this

19:03
day and age their hr director politely

19:06
told me

19:07
our employees don't need to do that we

19:09
take care of them forever

19:13
and you said

19:15
well

19:16
i ain't saying but within a couple years

19:18
you know they were out of business yes

19:21
no doubt yeah

19:23
yeah so um

19:25
you were the personification of the

19:27
pioneers take all the arrows right i

19:29
mean

19:31
it's it's i would just i would assume

19:33
that in the early days when you when you

19:35
first came up with it and and we're

19:37
trying to educate people on it

19:40
did you feel like sometimes you were

19:41
just showing paintings to blind people

19:44
and have them envision and actually

19:47
conceptually

19:48
put it together in their heads

19:50
it was very challenging actually what

19:53
finally got us really rolling

19:55
was a new york times article you know we

19:57
had worked hard you know trying to get

19:59
either the new york times or the wall

20:01
street journal to do an article and

20:03
finally did get one actually one of the

20:05
banks we were working with

20:07
uh you know

20:08
was able to get that article established

20:10
and uh yeah once that appeared this time

20:13
or our phone started ringing you know

20:15
finally kicked in

20:18
interesting how long did it take from

20:21
for it to

20:22
in your mind

20:24
um get some momentum and get that

20:26
critical mass where it's where it was

20:28
feeding on itself and people were

20:30
calling in and you really didn't have to

20:32
sell it or educate it anymore you you

20:34
had reached that point where people

20:36
accepted it as a valid concept for

20:38
employers and it was off and running how

20:41
long did that take from inception that

20:44
that september day that you know in 1979

20:48
to

20:49
um to when you you kind of looked at

20:51
your

20:52
at your partners and went wow this is

20:54
really catching on

20:55
yeah it was uh the key to that were the

20:58
regulations coming out of treasury

21:01
you know we had some early people like

21:04
j.c penney and bethlehem steel you know

21:06
who were willing to consider this early

21:09
but a lot were waiting here to see what

21:12
the regulations were going to include

21:14
and they came out in the fall of 81.

21:17
you know with that uh basically uh you

21:19
know uh it

21:21
resolved any issues around it and let me

21:24
get back

21:25
just to work through a little bit why

21:28
big companies embrace this if you if you

21:30
take the bet from steel

21:32
they already had

21:34
a savings plan where as i mentioned

21:37
people put money in after tax got a

21:39
match

21:41
you know from from the company and what

21:44
happens they never they were really just

21:46
glorified christmas clubs because the

21:48
employees could take their money out the

21:50
end of the year

21:51
which over 90 of them did

21:54
after two years they could take out the

21:56
employer money in those plans also and

21:59
around 90 did that as well

22:02
so although those they were technically

22:05
supposed to be retirement plans they

22:07
weren't

22:09
okay

22:10
right because people were taking the

22:11
money and going and buying a boat yeah

22:13
yeah well it was christmas whatever yeah

22:16
so what happened

22:18
now when

22:20
ceo cfos found out

22:23
hey i'm putting 20 30 000 a year in this

22:26
plan after taxes 72 percent tax

22:30
margin rate i could do this pre-tax

22:33
well obviously they had a high level of

22:35
interest so what happened is those

22:37
companies now gave employees the choice

22:40
you might still

22:41
be doing this after tax or pre-tax

22:44
but if you do it pre-taxes have got you

22:47
because you can't just take the money

22:48
out every december now you're going to

22:50
get your hands on it for a hardship with

22:52
pearl

22:53
but what happened is it converted

22:56
most of those employees going back 40

22:59
years or so ago

23:01
to shifting from christmas club

23:03
mentality to long-term savers for

23:06
retirement you know switching to pre-tax

23:10
and you know and i've had uh family

23:12
members a number of them who've retired

23:14
from companies like that

23:16
you know over the years say hey i really

23:17
want to thank you to do you know for

23:20
doing this because you know hey it

23:22
enabled me to successfully retire no one

23:24
of them was a you know brother-in-law

23:26
who was able to do that in his mid 50s

23:29
he wouldn't have otherwise

23:32
which leads me back to what you've done

23:34
in the legacy and in my opinion if you

23:36
haven't won it already i see people

23:38
getting congressional medic medals of

23:40
honor and i'm like why would they get

23:42
that

23:43
i mean i'm i'm literally going to after

23:45
this ask my pr team what does it take

23:48
who do we have to talk to to get you a

23:50
congressional medal of honor

23:52
to let people know who you are

23:54
and and the fact that

23:57
millions

23:59
millions and millions of employees who

24:01
have retired have retired because you

24:04
lovingly handcuffed them

24:06
to make that money grow

24:08
and compound that's what you were doing

24:10
what you designed was loving handcuffs

24:13
so that people would not get to the end

24:15
of the year every year and take the

24:16
money out and go blow it on christmas

24:18
gifts or living or whatever they had to

24:21
do

24:22
i just think that this is a bigger issue

24:24
than what people you know um i was

24:26
talking someone the other day so i'm

24:27
having ted bennett on the father 401k

24:30
and they're very smart and they went

24:32
yeah yeah he yeah that was a great idea

24:34
and i went no no stop for a second it's

24:36
bigger than a great idea a great idea is

24:38
uh you know is is velcro on shoes that's

24:41
a maybe that is but the point is

24:44
this is a little bit bigger than that

24:45
and it's interesting to hear from 1979

24:47
to

24:48
1981 you're you're a two-year overnight

24:50
sensation and those must have been some

24:52
really hard two years

24:55
of of trying to educate and get the irs

24:58
on board etc but i think once the

25:00
employers saw the light

25:02
i'm assuming they got behind it and

25:04
that's the reason it got done right

25:06
well absolutely for sure yeah and yeah

25:09
i'm still actively engaged stan actually

25:11
last uh three four years um

25:15
you know in addition to writing the uh

25:16
401k rs for dummies book updating that

25:19
i've

25:20
you know we have almost half the

25:22
workforce it doesn't have a private

25:24
retirement plan you know it's still a

25:25
big issue still it's that much one-half

25:28
almost close to it and so i've been

25:31
working

25:32
on

25:32
you know making it easier for small

25:34
employers you know to be able to have a

25:36
retirement program available and uh

25:39
you know in in the in the uh the book uh

25:42
you know

25:43
i've covered the ways for small

25:45
employers to be able to do that the the

25:47
dummies uh ira book uh but also i at the

25:51
end of that book i

25:53
was approached by a startup company it's

25:55
called actually penelope uh near

25:57
penelope.co

26:00
they are a startup that's focusing on

26:03
helping micro

26:05
female minority-owned businesses

26:07
primarily

26:09
that market which just nobody's really

26:12
interested in

26:13
uh you know easily to be able to have a

26:15
plan you know the affordable cost and so

26:18
i've been working closely with them uh

26:20
with the design of the plans you know

26:22
how to accomplish that and you'll get it

26:24
launched and um so i'm having a lot of

26:27
fun with that and you know very

26:29
passionate about

26:30
your small lawyers because small

26:32
employers

26:33
just aren't getting the kind of help

26:34
they need yeah there's

26:36
not not enough money from the financial

26:38
community it's just not attractive to

26:41
them

26:44
where did you come from ted where'd you

26:46
grow up tell us a little bit about that

26:47
story because i think it all dovetails

26:49
into where you have arrived today can

26:51
you give us that quickly yeah that's i

26:54
was going to say earlier the reason i

26:55
part of the reason i'm a humble guy i

26:58
grew up on a dairy farm milk cows

27:00
starting at about eight six

27:02
got south central pennsylvania so

27:05
now now i'm back on a little farm

27:07
there's a couple of horses ended up in

27:10
north central pennsylvania so

27:12
helps hey help me to keep me humble now

27:15
to go out and feed the cats and the

27:16
horses and

27:18
deal with the stuff that horses do other

27:20
than other than just eat

27:23
no i get it and then you went uh what

27:25
school did you go to where where did you

27:27
get your education uh temple

27:30
so you're a temple owl go owls right yep

27:33
and from and and what did you major in

27:35
at temple

27:36
i was a math major

27:38
that doesn't surprise me ted you're a

27:40
math major

27:41
yeah well and i actually did that i was

27:44
uh

27:44
my first job was in home office of uh

27:47
insurance company in philly in their

27:49
pension area you know that was where i

27:51
got my early training and i was actually

27:54
an actuarial grunt uh you know i started

27:58
on the divine benefits side of the

28:00
pension you know the business that's

28:02
where my original training was and

28:04
so i worked full time there and did the

28:07
temple thing at night uh yeah which is

28:09
uh

28:10
an interesting experience here to do

28:12
that so

28:14
and for people out there listening to

28:15
find benefits the reason you don't know

28:17
what that means a lot of you go what's

28:18
that uh defined contribution plans are

28:21
the 401k that ted um

28:23
created defined benefit plans are like

28:26
uh unicorns

28:28
those are pensions offered by employers

28:31
and i don't know what the percentage is

28:32
now ted what is the percentage of

28:34
private industry that offers that is i'm

28:35
sure it's less than

28:37
five it's probably five or six percent

28:39
right

28:40
it's pretty small and it was never more

28:41
than 30 percent you know there's a

28:43
perception that well everybody had a

28:45
pension but they really didn't and

28:48
yet you know uh when they talk about the

28:51
good old days the

28:53
pension i was covered by provident

28:54
mutual uh in philly

28:57
you had to be 30 if you're a male or 35

29:00
if you're a female to be covered you had

29:02
to stay until your age 60 before you got

29:04
a vested benefit okay

29:07
absolutely

29:09
those are all good old days you know

29:10
when businesses went out when they went

29:12
under back in that day the plans weren't

29:15
funded uh your employees lost a lot of

29:17
their benefits of not all of them so

29:20
so what happened uh you know congress

29:22
passed legislation

29:24
to strengthen uh

29:26
you know those plans and you know we

29:28
don't have time to get into details of

29:29
it i i've covered in the 401k book uh 40

29:33
years later

29:34
uh it became impossible to sell pension

29:36
plans so i had to switch over you know

29:38
companies no longer would set them up

29:40
because of the way that legislation was

29:43
uh

29:44
you know some provisions of that so so i

29:46
had to learn what the fine contribution

29:48
plans were

29:50
so you spent a lot of time in dc for

29:52
sure

29:54
absolutely and so

29:56
to get this done yeah i was just gonna

29:58
say what that's a tough place to be they

30:00
do have some good restaurants but it's

30:01
uh

30:02
it's a tough place to be and i know back

30:04
in the day i remember reading an article

30:06
about you out of politico that was

30:07
calling you the 10 trillion dollar

30:09
inventor which i think is appropriate i

30:12
think that's who you are

30:13
you're just a felon philanthropic 10

30:16
trillion dollar inventor that that

30:19
really

30:19
created something for everyone to

30:21
benefit from and also too

30:24
um i think it's it's made employers

30:26
better because they almost have to have

30:28
what you invented to be competitive

30:31
as part of the overall benefits package

30:34
that's you know that's out there um

30:36
[Music]

30:37
current legislation at the time of this

30:40
tape and people just look at the at the

30:41
date please if you're listening to it

30:43
down the road

30:44
um are you involved with some of the

30:46
401k plans that

30:48
and and the and the tweaking of them

30:50
that congress is working on

30:53
uh i i haven't been actively engaged uh

30:57
stan i'd say right right now that the

30:58
house uh

31:00
just passed a bill this week it's called

31:02
the secure act ii

31:04
one of the provisions in that i've been

31:06
pushing for a number of years and that

31:08
is to require all employers that have a

31:11
plan to automatically enroll employees

31:15
and to automatically increase their

31:16
contributions and

31:18
you know that i've had a had a role in

31:21
you know promoting that

31:23
i'm assuming one side of the owl really

31:25
likes that one side of the l doesn't or

31:27
they both like it because they all want

31:28
to get voted in

31:30
i actually just passed the house i think

31:32
there were only four negative votes who

31:34
would vote against that no don't answer

31:36
that question but you know

31:37
hypothetically

31:38
yeah i didn't even bother

31:40
who in the world

31:42
would would vote against the employee

31:45
you know as an employer out here in a

31:48
small company

31:49
um

31:50
big in the annuity world but small in

31:51
the regular world um i i want to make

31:55
sure that my employees are fully taken

31:57
care of we do have a 401k we do have

31:59
matching as maximum as we can do

32:01
um

32:02
and it makes people i think i think

32:05
another thing that you've created which

32:06
you was not intended at the time

32:10
um this you did this

32:12
was it makes

32:15
it makes an employer

32:18
care whether they want to or not about

32:20
their employees it almost forces them to

32:24
care which i like

32:26
i i and i and i think that's something

32:28
that you also have given to society and

32:31
business

32:32
that

32:33
you know even if there's the biggest

32:35
sociopath in the world as an employer

32:38
ceo

32:40
to be competitive in the world they have

32:41
to they have to um implement ted

32:44
bennett's 401k structure in order to be

32:46
competitive or people will leave

32:49
hey most

32:51
most employment ads

32:53
will say we have a 401k with a matching

32:56
contribution

32:57
yeah when you look at employment ads so

32:59
definitely does that make you smile

33:01
seriously well it does yeah but from an

33:04
employer's perspective their studies

33:06
have shown that having a good plan helps

33:08
to reduce turnover and turnover is

33:10
expensive you know for most employers

33:13
uh yeah definitely a costly thing

33:17
do you feel that traditional 401k plans

33:20
currently are too complex

33:24
well they're they're definitely

33:25
extremely complex you know they're four

33:27
different types of 401ks right now okay

33:30
three types of uh

33:32
employer-sponsored iras and they're in

33:35
the uh dummy's book uh you know so small

33:38
employer actually has seven different

33:40
possibilities so so yeah

33:43
they're definitely

33:45
uh complex and one of the things i was

33:46
just talking you know before i got on

33:48
here with you i was on with

33:51
folks from penelope on a call and

33:54
you know we're

33:56
working hard to make it easy

33:58
for these micro employers that don't

34:01
have a lot of time by having

34:03
a

34:04
plan

34:05
that pretty much is just click and set

34:07
up you know everything is

34:10
designed to make them uh

34:13
fail safe plans you know that are

34:16
you don't have to worry about compliance

34:18
and all the complexities of 401k

34:20
the only thing they really have to

34:22
be able to do is make the employer

34:24
contribution you know that would

34:26
be required with the plan but otherwise

34:28
it's pretty much click and go very easy

34:30
to set up

34:31
and that's taking all the complexity out

34:33
because

34:34
they're horrendously complex

34:36
is that your passion currently is to

34:37
make this simpler

34:39
well to make it attractive for small

34:41
employers to be able to do it and

34:44
provide it with their employees without

34:46
having to really get bogged down and all

34:48
the complexity absolutely definitely a

34:50
passion so do you have a percentage in

34:53
your head of those 50 of employers that

34:55
aren't offering it that you would really

34:57
like to

34:58
for that to get to a you know less than

35:00
that percentage is it do you want to

35:02
decrease that by 25 percent

35:05
see i love that about you man well and

35:07
what and this is one of the other things

35:09
i've been

35:10
promoting that didn't get included in

35:12
this bill in the house and that is to

35:14
require employers to offer the payroll

35:16
deduction savings plan making from day

35:19
one

35:21
from date of hire

35:23
no from day one of the business opening

35:25
well maybe give them you know a year or

35:28
whatever you know to get their business

35:30
established

35:31
but

35:33
you know after that hey they have to hey

35:34
i've run small businesses stan and you

35:37
do too i mean

35:38
deducting money from somebody's paycheck

35:40
and sending off the invest you know it's

35:42
not a big deal i mean

35:44
it's really not it seems like a heavy

35:46
lift i know that

35:48
just giving my my version of that you

35:50
know obviously when you start a business

35:52
people people always ask me you know can

35:54
you you know you started this business

35:56
and you knew it was gonna i didn't know

35:58
anything when i started the business all

36:00
i knew was it was me and my wife

36:02
and we were trying to make ends meet and

36:04
do the right thing and and offer good

36:07
advice and now it's grown to this big

36:08
thing

36:09
um but

36:10
but when we decided to implement the

36:12
401k it seemed like

36:14
a harder lift than it actually was

36:17
and when we did it i'm like man that was

36:20
easy

36:21
what's the big deal um and i think

36:24
that's going to be that's the

36:25
educational part that needs to happen

36:28
better in the industry of

36:30
of the what's the big deal

36:32
in into and to have

36:35
small businesses from the get-go start

36:37
thinking about that

36:38
and not just relying on the government

36:40
and social security to be that to be

36:43
that uh backstop it's not it was never

36:45
put in place to be that so i applaud you

36:48
i applaud you for that definitely so

36:51
um i wanted to ask you the 401ks

36:54
are now some of them are now starting to

36:57
offer

36:58
annuity lifetime income benefits

37:00
internally inside of them not all and

37:02
it's controversial from the standpoint

37:05
of who do you let in and what type of

37:07
annuity and all that stuff i think the

37:09
fact that we're talking about it is a

37:11
positive but that doesn't mean the end

37:13
result's going to be a positive my fear

37:15
is that

37:16
the big huge annuity companies will be

37:18
the only ones allowed on the platform

37:21
and that is not a fiduciary approach

37:23
because annuities are commodity products

37:25
they should be shot all carries for the

37:27
highest contractual guarantee

37:29
what is your

37:31
take on

37:32
this new direction for 401ks not just

37:35
not just having an accumulation vehicle

37:38
but also having a choice internally

37:41
for decumulation lifetime income

37:43
at some point in time what are your

37:45
thoughts on that i i'm

37:47
clearly not in favor of doing it inside

37:49
the 401k while you're accumulating your

37:52
money

37:53
but i'm a huge fan that when individuals

37:56
are retiring

37:57
that

37:59
pretty much

38:00
most who are retiring

38:03
are going to have to really worry a lot

38:05
about how do i make this last the rest

38:07
of my lifetime right you know and i'm a

38:10
huge fan

38:11
of them

38:13
committing maybe half for sure whatever

38:16
it takes whatever whatever the yeah to

38:18
lock in a guaranteed life income

38:21
and you know i've recommended you for

38:23
that

38:24
i know i appreciate i appreciate that

38:25
but i find it interesting and i think

38:27
well let me just make one other point on

38:29
this i'm

38:30
that's another thing i'd like to see

38:32
congress do to help encourage that and

38:34
that is to give a tax break maybe a

38:37
thousand or two thousand dollars a month

38:39
for somebody who does at retirement

38:42
commit to a lifetime stream of income

38:44
again to have to focus more attention

38:47
you know when considering doing that

38:49
that's a really good idea i've never

38:50
heard that i think that would be good

38:51
that you say okay at the end when you

38:53
retire

38:54
and you have to make the decision on the

38:56
401k to roll it to an ira you can get a

38:58
tax break for putting whatever portion

39:01
amount to to create the lifetime income

39:03
stream you need in addition to social

39:04
security you get a tax break for that i

39:07
think that's that's genius i

39:09
i know people are going to be surprised

39:11
about this and i apologize for

39:12
interrupting you but i was excited when

39:13
you said what you said

39:15
people instinctively think that i'm all

39:18
for

39:19
401ks putting

39:21
annuity choices inside of of of the plan

39:25
but i kind of laid out the problem with

39:27
that is that there is not a

39:30
they're pure choice and i think the big

39:31
boys are going to win because they're

39:33
going to get on the platform

39:35
and the and the maybe a a smaller a plus

39:38
rated company is not going to get on

39:39
that platform

39:40
and the other thing too is it's missing

39:42
the whole point of what ted

39:44
created which is accumulation growth

39:47
once you do that once you put money into

39:50
a lifetime income stream annuity

39:55
it's kind of locked in and

39:57
i think that

39:59
is a negative and certainly people in

40:01
their 30s and 40s and 50s probably they

40:04
shouldn't really be doing that in my

40:05
opinion they should be allowing that

40:07
money to grow

40:09
but i think this is political ted i want

40:11
your take on this i think the reason

40:12
we're seeing this happen

40:14
is the government knows social security

40:16
is being used improperly it's being used

40:18
as the primary income source and with

40:20
the qualified longevity annuity contract

40:22
they put out with with iras

40:24
um and with the um this income annuity

40:28
choices in some 401 case

40:30
that's a big red flag that the

40:31
government saying hey we really want you

40:33
the consumer to plan for your income i

40:35
just think they might be going about it

40:37
the wrong way your thoughts well it's

40:39
definitely political but i think it's

40:40
probably frankly more politically driven

40:44
by the lobbyists who want that

40:46
opportunity

40:47
more than anything else

40:50
that's a good point the insurance lobby

40:52
is huge you're right yeah now the other

40:55
thing is uh stan hey

40:58
uh when i was at provident mutual one of

40:59
the things i did as an actuarial grunt

41:02
is

41:03
build those annuity tables for buying

41:05
those annuities you know back in the 60s

41:08
and those rates were horrible i mean

41:11
they were so loaded in favor of the

41:12
insurance company sure

41:14
yeah and provident mutual wasn't a you

41:16
know they want to weren't a horrible

41:18
company uh yeah they were pretty decent

41:20
company but still you know they were

41:22
totally loaded in their favor and uh you

41:24
know but the other issue you mentioned

41:27
you need to be accumulating and you get

41:29
locked into a low return

41:31
but otherwise your your life changes you

41:34
know there's so many things that happen

41:36
uh you know during your lifetime uh you

41:39
might not even live you know to be

41:41
worrying about retirement and the other

41:43
point as you as you well know

41:45
the annuity market changes so rapidly

41:48
and your best opportunity is

41:51
taking advantage of the market at a time

41:53
you want immediate income you rather

41:55
than buying something 10 or 20 years

41:58
earlier than that you know to do the

42:00
kind of shopping you do you know to take

42:02
advantage of what the you know where the

42:05
market is today

42:07
i call that defer to spea meaning that

42:09
you you keep your powder dry until the

42:11
exact moment that you need lifetime

42:13
income and then at that exact moment you

42:16
buy the most efficient highest

42:18
contractual guaranteed annuity on the

42:19
planet called an immediate annuity which

42:21
oh by the way pays that agent the least

42:23
amount of commission which is the reason

42:24
you never see them but it's it's pro

42:27
customer so what ted's saying and i

42:29
agree with him it's a defer to spia

42:31
model from the deferred contribution

42:33
plan to

42:35
an immediate new annuity for lifetime

42:37
income if you need lifetime income upon

42:39
your retirement i think one of the

42:41
things that you said

42:43
was was

42:45
he just shot a light bulb into my eye

42:47
which is

42:48
the biggest lobbying group on the hill

42:51
is the insurance industry lobby it

42:53
people say the nra has power the nra is

42:56
is a flee

42:58
compared to the life insurance and

43:00
annuity lobby on the on the hill

43:03
and so always follow the money

43:05
and if you're seeing these things

43:06
inserted into the 401ks of the world

43:09
that means that like ted said

43:12
very astutely that means the annuity

43:14
company wants their piece of that 401k

43:16
pie that ted that is trillions of

43:19
dollars that ted created

43:21
they want a piece of that and it's

43:22
nothing

43:23
nothing more than that i think another

43:25
pointy thing that you said was

43:27
if someone early in their 30s and 40s

43:29
and 50s are locking in a lifetime income

43:31
guarantee

43:33
um

43:34
that in something changes their life or

43:36
they die prematurely that was a bad

43:38
choice which leads to the defer to spea

43:41
being a better

43:42
better choice interesting interesting

43:45
take on that

43:46
um yeah well and you know stand out for

43:49
your benefit of your listeners i mean i

43:51
totally support what you do and you've

43:54
read your books and your approach and

43:57
you know it's uh definitely um you're

43:59
the guy to go to in this stuff well i

44:01
appreciate that you know i i'm um

44:04
i'm not getting paid anything by the way

44:06
yeah i'm certain i'm certainly i'm

44:07
certainly a unicorn in the in the

44:09
industry of sales pitches that

44:11
we just sell contractual guarantees

44:13
because they're contracts and not

44:14
everybody needs an annuity there's many

44:16
types

44:17
but simple is better and always safe you

44:19
can't explain it to a nine-year-old

44:21
don't buy it that's the whole warren

44:23
buffett thing right so if you no offense

44:24
to nine year olds where do you you know

44:27
looking as gretzky said you know you

44:29
don't skate behind the puck you skate to

44:30
where the puck's gonna be

44:32
where's the 401k puck going to be where

44:34
do you think it's all headed ted

44:36
uh well what i'm concerned about and

44:38
it's uh part of it's due to this

44:40
legislation is going through

44:43
is um yeah we almost lost 401k back in

44:46
reagan tax reform backed uh

44:49
first version of that would have killed

44:50
it and we had a massive fight to

44:52
preserve it

44:53
it's under attack again now

44:56
um as it was then you know

44:58
it's

44:59
what are known as backdoor tax

45:02
revenue raisers and we're back in that

45:04
world again where

45:06
you know they're looking to do it back

45:08
door and so this current legislation

45:11
the secure act 2

45:14
will require the catch-up contributions

45:17
must be roth contributions

45:20
backdoor tax increase got it there also

45:23
have a provision that employer matching

45:26
the employees collect for them to be

45:29
roth contributions

45:31
which administratively would be

45:33
extremely ugly thing to do

45:36
but there's been talk that roth

45:38
administration

45:40
would like to eliminate the tax

45:41
deduction for 401k contributions and

45:44
turn it into a tax credit

45:48
ugh

45:50
so so so we

45:52
have a yeah we have a major battle you

45:54
know a major battle coming

45:56
you know it started if this legislation

45:58
goes through you know requiring that

46:02
the catch-up has to be roth and

46:04
employees being able to elect to

46:06
prophesize their match you know there's

46:09
talk and actually back into the

46:11
prior administration of

46:13
having the 401k all be roth

46:16
after tax rather than pre-tax money

46:19
is it irs behind that who's behind that

46:22
uh it's politicians not irs you know

46:24
tell you how do we get more money now

46:26
rather than later yeah yeah i've i'm not

46:28
a big fan of roth by the way i uh me

46:31
either

46:32
i've written roth or not to ross and

46:34
it's mostly not to roth

46:36
[Laughter]

46:38
and i've you know done a lot of reasons

46:41
it's in in the dummies book you know

46:43
again not to over push that but no we're

46:45
and we're going to have a link to your

46:47
books on on we have a page for you on my

46:49
site so people can can look at this but

46:51
anyhow it's just grossly oversold i mean

46:53
for most people

46:55
you know roth is the wrong idea you know

46:57
but but the government's pushing it in

46:59
the states

47:00
yeah oh they're pushing and and also the

47:03
states are mandating having the

47:05
retirement plans where the money goes

47:07
into roth as well because they want the

47:09
tax revenue now they don't want it 10 or

47:11
20 years from now that's what that's all

47:13
about i think i think we're probably

47:15
at the same table on this comment i'm

47:17
getting ready to say and i always tell

47:18
people ross

47:20
here's my opinion

47:22
you're placing a lot of trust in

47:25
politicians politicians to not change

47:27
the rules or not means test it or not

47:30
say you can only use it for this this

47:32
and this so you're paying upfront taxes

47:35
and you're saying those people in

47:36
washington i really trust them i know

47:38
they're going to keep their word on that

47:40
and my comment to the roth issue is

47:43
everything in life is a voting bloc

47:45
everything i don't care what it is and

47:47
the voting bloc for roth ira holders

47:51
is very very small and can be labeled

47:53
very quickly by the media as the evil

47:55
rich

47:57
and that's what's happening right now

47:59
since peter thiel you know

48:01
opened his roth and now it's worth 5

48:02
billion no no no that's not fair well

48:04
how is it not fair he played by the

48:06
rules

48:07
same just remember when they're

48:09
attacking billionaires they're coming to

48:11
you next okay

48:14
kind of like what they're talking about

48:15
unrealized games at the time of this

48:17
taping they're talking about taxi and

48:18
unrealized gains which could be ted the

48:20
dumbest thing i've ever heard

48:22
but i agree with you on the roth ira do

48:24
you share in my opinion about the trust

48:26
issues with well that's one there are

48:29
many others but yes absolutely political

48:31
risk is clearly one of them let me be

48:33
what are the others

48:35
uh well

48:38
the first

48:39
one is the fact that

48:40
from day one people have been asked to

48:42
expect tax rates you win with roth and

48:45
if tax rates are higher and you take the

48:47
money out than you put it in from day

48:49
one people been asked to expect tax

48:52
rates to go up or down their answer you

48:54
know we always expect it to go up well

48:56
tax rates are actually lower now than

48:58
when roth started so people played that

49:01
game haven't won okay

49:04
the other point is that

49:06
when you're building a nest egg for

49:07
retirement

49:09
it's best to build it faster rather than

49:11
slower

49:12
well if you're saving pre-tax you can

49:15
invest more money for your future than

49:17
if you're doing it after tax because

49:20
life changes

49:21
we have pandemics we have job losses you

49:24
have

49:24
disabilities or spouses die or whatever

49:27
so

49:28
you're in your mid 50s you're a better

49:30
position if you have 40 or 50 percent

49:32
more accumulated than what you otherwise

49:35
would

49:36
you know that's the reality okay

49:39
the other is you should put in the full

49:41
amount it takes to get a match as early

49:43
as you can

49:44
that's easier to do if you're saving

49:46
pre-tax than after

49:48
and then on the political risk side

49:52
in the dummies book i i'll use social

49:54
security as example okay

49:57
social security benefits never used to

49:59
be taxed

50:01
up to 85 are now taxed correct i ask

50:04
people do you realize you know when

50:07
you're working and you're paying your

50:09
social security tax that you're also

50:11
paying income tax on that

50:14
exactly you're already paying income tax

50:16
on so now you're going to get taxed on

50:18
the benefit when i went to the irs

50:20
website

50:22
stand to check the break points and

50:24
where you go from

50:26
one bracket you know up to the 85

50:28
percent the irs website says we only tax

50:32
85 of your social security benefit

50:37
but it's a great example of politicians

50:40
going back on their word

50:42
well absolutely i mean classic it's a

50:45
classic it should be at the very top and

50:47
it should be

50:48
an asterisk under the word roth ira

50:51
which is oh by the way

50:53
we've been here we've been to this rodeo

50:54
before and this is what happened at the

50:55
rodeo they you know they they pulled the

50:58
uh the rug out from under you um ted

51:00
we're getting to the end of the session

51:02
i do this all the time with my celebrity

51:04
guest and boy are you a celebrity

51:06
and i it's called the mic drop moment

51:08
and i ask the guests to kind of

51:11
summarize or leave the leave the viewers

51:13
and listeners with a thought it could be

51:16
anything so the mic drop mode as yours

51:18
go

51:22
well

51:24
i guess those in your audience who maybe

51:26
have an opportunity to use a program

51:28
plan to save for retirement and aren't

51:31
doing it

51:32
they sure sex should do it you know

51:33
don't wait don't pass up the opportunity

51:36
take advantage of it you're going to

51:38
regret it later

51:40
and ladies and gentlemen

51:42
that person's name ted bennett the

51:44
inventor of the 401k and somebody

51:48
that my pr firm's going to hear from

51:49
today because we're going to push for

51:52
ted to get the congressional medal of

51:54
honor and i am not kidding and people

51:57
that know me well

51:58
know that once i get on something i'm

52:00
going to be on it because i think

52:02
it the the epiphany came to me during

52:04
this conversation just how much he has

52:06
added to the united states of america

52:10
and everybody from low class middle

52:12
class and upper class has benefited from

52:14
ted's insight

52:16
of his his risk-taking and his passion

52:20
for developing and implementing the 401k

52:23
so with that

52:24
i want to thank everybody for joining us

52:26
on the number one annuity podcast on the

52:28
planet and the top

52:30
growing business podcast ever no it's

52:33
not ever but recently just growing by

52:35
leaps and bounds because we have people

52:37
like ted on so i appreciate you joining

52:39
fun with annuities and i will see you

52:42
next week

52:48
thanks for listening to fun with

52:50
annuities please hit the subscribe

52:51
button and make sure to go to my site at

52:54
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52:55
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52:57
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53:00
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53:05
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53:07
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53:10
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53:12
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53:14
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53:16
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53:19
man so we can have a full discussion of

53:22
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53:24
best brutally factual and truthful

53:26
advice you will ever get and that's one

53:29
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53:31
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53:33
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53:36
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53:37
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53:41
[Music]

53:52
you