Roger Whitney: How To Rock Your Retirement (TAM Classic)

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[Music]

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welcome to fund with annuities where

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every single week I welcome a celebrity

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guest expert that can help you maximize

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chapter 2 of your life listen learn

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laugh and love every minute of the most

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unique Financial podcast on the planet

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let's get to

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[Music]

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it welcome to with annuities I'm your

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host Stan the annuity man America's

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annuity agent boy do we have a cool

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guest today he goes by the moniker of

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the retirement answer man which rhymes

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with the annuity man so it kind of

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between the two of us I think we got it

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covered his name is Roger Whitney boy

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has he got a lot going on he has a

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podcast he's written a book he's got a a

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club that you can join he's got a free

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newsletter all that stuff and we'll have

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that on my site at the annuity man.com

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because all of our celebrity guests like

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this get their own page on my site to

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where you can go and link to their site

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and learn about who they are but um

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Superstar stuff here young vibrant smart

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pett I mean he's the guy man if I want

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if I still drank beer this would be the

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guy that I'd say hey let's go get a beer

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but hey Roger thanks for joining me on

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fun with annuities and you're going to

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send me a clip of that for my daily

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affirmation I hope absolutely you know

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I'm a I'm a

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motivational slash annuity expert so um

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Roger tell the people about you I mean

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your journey to the retirement

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answerman you know is never planned it

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happens right you know you don't wake up

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in the morning you go you know what I'm

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gonna trademark retirement answerman and

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that's who I'm G to be I'm glad I

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remember when I remember when I first

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because the our podcast which has been

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going for about eight years was

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originally called plan well invest

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wisely which really really doesn't say

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anything to anybody um and then um uh a

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gentleman that I actually learned some

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podcasting from uh the podcast

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answerman uh I was at a conference and I

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was talking to him and like why don't I

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just call it the retirement answer man

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so I talked to him about it he got it

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from the Bible answerman who was an old

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school okay uh uh publisher of some sort

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and I remember when I named it and this

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is eight years ago it felt a little

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uncom able it felt a little

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arrogant because it's not like I got all

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the answers uh and I didn't want to be

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that person that acted like they did

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have all the answers but then I'm like

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okay if I do this I have to lean into it

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and it's going to make me go pro and be

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more intentional about what I actually

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do so that's how the name came about but

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you're right I mean when you get to be

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I'm 55 when you get you have a lot of

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different incarnations of who you are

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which is I think how a lot of people

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feel as they near you know we'll call it

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retirement I

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guess yeah when you pass that 50 Mark

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you know things start getting weird and

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start getting real at the same time um

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how'd you get I mean where you from

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where'd you go to school you know did

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you wake up in the morning go I like

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money let's let's let's talk about

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finances tell us that story I think it

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was more of uh how we all grow up for

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most most people I know anyway I went to

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Michigan State G spart uh Spartans spon

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I was a I met my wife there at I was a

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bartender she was a and then moved to

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Texas after graduation just because she

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had moved down there to follow her

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family and the way I got into being a

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financial adviser which is other than

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one little one little beginning job out

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of college is all I've ever done it's

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not that fancy of a story I hated what I

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did I was bored I had a buddy that did

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it I'm like okay I'll try that I mean

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that's about the science behind it and

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so for the first eight years of my life

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started 90 I had really bad me mentors

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not knowing because I was just a young

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kid and all I did was trade technology

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stocks for eight years in the 90s which

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was a great thing to do sure um even if

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you didn't know what you were doing

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because the markets were so nice and

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then around 87 889 I knew this isn't

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what I was supposed to be doing with my

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life uh and so I started to get my

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certified financial planner certificate

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and I've gotten a number of other

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Advanced planning designations and then

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just have kept Reinventing myself as

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I've discovered what my what I'm

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supposed to be doing with my life which

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is never revealed to you in one

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instance is it a passion do you wake up

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in the morning with a passion to inform

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educate and simplify the world of money

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and retirement is that is that what

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you're on the planet

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for definitely um when so fast forward

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in 03 I started an independent firm with

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two partners and then over 15 years we

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grew that to about 15 people 12 15

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people and I had gotten to this point in

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my

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40s when in a business if you've been an

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entrepreneur or understand

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entrepreneurism you sort of have this

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Flatline that you hit this hockey stick

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where your cash flow goes up but your

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overhead stays roughly the same and we

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had hit that spot and I was doing

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triathlons and Adventure races in my

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mid-40s and I I I don't know whatever

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you want to call it like is this what my

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life is going to be you know I could

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take care of my family do some trips is

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this what I'm supposed to be doing and

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so that's when I hired my first

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professional

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coach and what haunts me is I don't want

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to get to be 70 and say what could I

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have done and so that's what so when I

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started the podcast it was really a

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personal exploration of finding my voice

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and what do I really believe it and so I

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just ke kept iterating um because I

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think out loud so that's the reason I

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started a podcast it was pretty selfish

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I just wanted to think out loud and

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start to form what my opinion and view

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was of financial planning

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retirement what the goals are really

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during this stage of life because that's

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you know what I was exposed to with

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clients so yeah totally this is where

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I'm supposed to

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be for anyone that uh forgot who this

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was Roger Whitney and he has all kinds

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of stuff his retirement answerman

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podcast is fantastic um we'll obviously

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have that link you need to go you know

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review that listen to the past episodes

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you know follow him on the current ones

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you wrote a book called Rock retirement

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um and there's a rock retirement Club I

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want you to kind of go into the book

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what was the motivation behind that

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because it's not your typical retirement

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book it it really kind of delves into

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what I call you know there's new no

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U-Hauls behind heares you need to

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maximize the day live for the day find

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out you know youve you've accumulated

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all this money now what um you know you

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just can't watch it and pull up your

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bank account every day even though a lot

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of people do that where did The Rock

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retirement idea come from and then could

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you go into the Rock retirement club and

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what that entails yeah so I think there

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are two retirement crisis happening

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right now there's a one that we know

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about which is there's a lot of people

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that don't have enough money to pay the

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bills when they can't work anymore

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that's the one that we know about and

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that's a big one yeah um there's another

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retirement crisis that feels it's not

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talked about as much because it's sort

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of weird to talk about it because it

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seems like stop whining and that's the

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crisis of people that have been blessed

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and but also have done a lot of things

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right for a long time and then they get

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to the stage of

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life where they can have more time

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Freedom which is really what retirement

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is it's not retirement like Grandpa's

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retirement that's how we think of it but

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it's not but there's a crisis with

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people that have a lot of options in

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that they're they're like a bodybuilder

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that have gotten really strong upper

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body but no legs they know how to

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accumulate they have this system of of

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affirmation of saving and investing and

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seeing it grow and being a good Steward

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and then they get to

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retirement and they don't know how to

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harvest what they've

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accumulated and they're so worried about

8:23
the future what their 80 or 90y old self

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is going to deal with and they don't

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have a good framework to know that

8:29
they'll be okay so they just keep saving

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and denying

8:34
themselves um that's a crisis a

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different kind of Crisis is not as re

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visceral as I don't have enough money so

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I don't want to diminish that relative

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to this but there's a lot of people that

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are in this position and what what has

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happened in my in my view Stan is when I

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was teaching the retirement planning

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section section for the cfp uh

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certificate program Certified Financial

8:58
Planning certificate program MH in my

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view traditional classical financial

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planning doesn't solve for this it it

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classical financial planning focuses on

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what a number is it's all within the

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calculator because we're all Financial

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Geeks that's how the certification was

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created and there's for most people

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there isn't a financial dilemma there's

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a dilemma of vision and spirit of what

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they want for their life um

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and I think that's a big crisis for a

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good number of people it is I call it

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the middle class scars um where we have

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Generations that grew up you know during

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the Depression and then they passed on

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those middle class scars to their kids I

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always talk about you know say going to

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McDonald's and my dad's standing there

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and I want to order and I order the

9:49
large fry and he looks at me like I just

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you know committed the ultimate sin why

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would you ever ordered the large F fry

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um but I think uh a lot of people suffer

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from the f point that they can't they

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can't spend it there's something that's

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that's in the way of them actually

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enjoying their money I want you you said

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a word that popped out at me during that

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explanation and I want you to dig deeper

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in the word was Harvest can you go

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deeper when you say Harvest um what does

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that mean to the

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retiree well let's let's use that

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metaphor you you you you so and so and

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so that's your saving and investing and

10:28
denying yourself and

10:30
and betting on the markets over decades

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that compounding that creates a

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Bountiful Harvest and then reaping might

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be the better word right to okay when

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your

10:41
retirement when you excuse me when

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you're

10:45
retiring the whole point of all of this

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reaping was to use this to create a

10:52
vision of your life once you've raised

10:54
the family you've filled your work

10:56
obligations and you've taken care of

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of that when you

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retire that's when you have the most

11:04
time Freedom let's think about a normal

11:29
en Vision themselves sitting on the Park

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Bench of Life they Envision themselves

11:33
in the playground and they finally have

11:35
the time to go explore and do the things

11:37
that they want to do or at least

11:39
discover them if they don't know what

11:40
they are sure that's what all this money

11:43
is for and classical financial

11:49
planning focuses on denying them that

11:53
because the numbers on the longevity and

11:56
the possibility of long-term care and

11:59
your 80 or 90y old self is so uncertain

12:03
because of inflation markets whatever

12:06
that it always defaults to decisions to

12:09
deny yourself today and if you think of

12:13
I think of a teeter totter so when

12:14
you're making these decisions you want

12:17
to have your best great life today on

12:20
one end and on the other end you don't

12:22
you want to be okay when you're 80 or 90

12:25
and there's a tension between those two

12:27
things and you're standing on the middle

12:28
of that teeter totter trying to balance

12:31
that and unfortunately the majority of

12:33
planning which feeds the mindset of this

12:36
very uncertain world is always going to

12:39
default to denying

12:41
today and that's not right because

12:45
tomorrow isn't Pro promised to anyone

12:47
you got to be a good Steward but what

12:50
what I have observed and I'd be

12:51
interested in your perspective on the

12:53
stand walking this journey with

12:57
clients over decades they've been

12:59
denying

13:01
themselves almost unconsciously and then

13:03
they get to a point in their 80s or

13:06
whatever point is they realize oh my

13:08
goodness I'm gonna have more money than

13:11
I

13:12
need and it's like a Tipping Point and

13:15
then you start to get well crap what

13:17
could I have done what trips could I

13:20
have done what gifts could I have

13:22
bestowed and so they're denying a

13:24
blessing to the world in how they live

13:27
it or in the gifts they give mon arily

13:30
and then they end up being older with

13:33
too much money and then just trying to

13:34
give it away or just let the estate

13:37
figured out I think what I found is you

13:39
know been through the similar Journey

13:41
with you you know with Dean Whitter and

13:42
Morgan Stanley pay Weber UBS so went

13:44
through all of that um and that's where

13:46
I cut my teeth for decades but what I

13:48
what I find with people out here and I

13:50
only work in contractual guaranteed

13:52
space fixed annuities is I tell people

13:54
let's take this step first and the step

13:56
is let's let's cover your income floor

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that income amount that you need every

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month to hit every single month Social

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Security pension if you're so fortunate

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dividend stock side hustle annuity Gap

14:07
filling whatever that is once we solve

14:10
that and I and I found out once we can

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solve that income floor for people

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they're gonna they don't worry as much

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they're better investors they're better

14:17
stewards they live their life more but

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most people are worried about that

14:21
lifetime income component without being

14:24
affected by markets or geopolitical

14:26
events Etc once we can put that in place

14:28
which is really the reason annuities

14:30
were even put on the planet even though

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there's many different types but they're

14:33
primarily soft for Lifetime income as

14:35
long as you're breathing what I found is

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once we get that income floor in place

14:40
and they understand how we s for

14:42
inflation in the future we just reverse

14:43
engineer a spia immediate annuity quote

14:46
to s for that increase when they need it

14:49
then they're often running so I I I look

14:51
at it a little bit differently that if

14:53
we can solve that one fear and most

14:55
people have that fear of paying the

14:57
bills whether they have a million dollar

14:59
$10 million or $100,000 and once we do

15:02
that they they're better investors

15:04
they're happier they're lighter in their

15:07
step um so that's just from my myopic

15:10
space and the WAN that I'm in which is

15:12
the annuity man that's what I I see

15:15
people getting over the hump of those

15:17
middle class scars of not being able to

15:19
spend money you know yeah I think you're

15:21
exactly I think you're exactly right

15:22
Stan and that is and that isn't a

15:25
financial optimized

15:29
formula it's a life optimized formula

15:31
right to give them give themselves for

15:34
someone to give themselves permission to

15:36
do things knowing that they have this

15:38
base there and I actually I have come

15:40
around to that over the last two or

15:43
three years because you know

15:46
traditionally how I grew up uh in my

15:49
experience with annuities

15:51
is nasty it's just it was this

15:55
manufactured junk food well a lot of

15:57
products are like that earned our the

15:59
the industry has earned its bad

16:00
reputation so has advisers right yeah

16:03
because of how they've used things like

16:05
that sure and and and so I think that

16:07
I've heard different terms for what

16:08
you're talking right about right I've

16:10
heard the minimum dignity floor I

16:12
personally like yeah that uh I

16:14
personally like the the the ba the base

16:17
great life to yep so you can ensure

16:21
against the you know basically ensure

16:22
against the base great life with these

16:24
income streams and on the um and on the

16:28
like in my our planning

16:30
process we begin with building the

16:34
income floor on the front end so when a

16:36
client retires they have the first five

16:38
years of consumption paid for and drisk

16:42
so it's essentially the you know the

16:44
using cash-like things for an annuity on

16:46
the front end and then you you can do

16:48
the tail end as well um but I think that

16:51
is one thing I have found like with the

16:53
rock retirement Club where we have over

16:55
800 people all in this phase of life for

16:58
about three years I had office hours

17:00
where I'd have one-on-one conversations

17:03
not to give advice but to just to listen

17:05
and help be a decision-making partner

17:08
and one thing that really surprised me I

17:10
did was unexpected Stan and this goes to

17:12
your point was the vast majority of

17:17
them of these sessions

17:21
were people searching for permission to

17:25
do the things that they want to

17:27
do it was about

17:30
about it was about you know have feeling

17:33
safe that they can do it without hurting

17:35
themselves uh which goes to your point

17:38
of this is much more of a crisis of

17:41
faith and belief and structure than it

17:43
is a math problem for the people that

17:45
we're talking about now right um it's

17:48
much and that's that's sad but that's

17:52
also encouraging because that means that

17:55
for those that have been blessed bless

17:59
and done the things right to have these

18:01
choices if we can bring via annuities or

18:04
income floors or perspective in their

18:07
decision making if we can bring these

18:10
guide pose this can help free them to be

18:13
able to harvest to be able to use their

18:16
bounty to help their family help the

18:18
world create

18:21
memories that's well beyond the math and

18:23
that's stuff that we don't talk about

18:25
mostly As financial planners because we

18:26
like numbers and we like Investments

18:28
well and it's hard for people that I

18:30
find to transfer risk annuities are

18:33
transfer of risk products um we can

18:35
obviously structure them so that they'll

18:37
pay you as if you die early all the

18:40
money that's unused goes to the family

18:41
that's one of the biggest misconceptions

18:43
out there but as long as you're

18:44
breathing you're going to get a payment

18:46
and so it's the only product that can do

18:47
that but a lot of people have a hard

18:48
time transferring that risk and

18:50
allocating that money to an irrevocable

18:53
life lifetime income stream which leads

18:55
to the fact that it has to be in

18:57
proportion and at properly so it makes

19:00
sense but I always tell people you

19:01
already have two annuities one's Social

19:03
Security the other one is what I call a

19:06
forced annuity and that's rmds required

19:08
minimum distribution that literally

19:10
functions like an annuity because it's

19:12
the IRS tap and you're on the shoulder

19:13
and say yeah we need a payment we need a

19:15
payment we need a payment you know and

19:17
so and you're gonna have to manage the

19:19
risk of those potential rmds so they're

19:21
goingon to end up being cash likee

19:23
anyway correct so once people get their

19:26
arms around you know they hate I hate

19:27
all annuity St okay great you you own

19:30
two um most people do that if you have

19:32
an IRA and you have social security

19:33
number you own two uh do you need more I

19:36
don't know but I think that flipping

19:39
through Rock retirement book um it was

19:42
more about getting the you trying to

19:44
teach people to get their arms around

19:46
their specific situation to

19:49
make a sound

19:51
decision um that would put them in a

19:54
better place mentally not financially

19:56
because they're already there but

19:57
mentally so that can go live their life

19:59
is that did I get the synopsis of that

20:02
right yeah I wrote the book a specific

20:04
way when I was I'm not naturally a

20:08
writer which is probably

20:10
evident but uh I I bought I bought

20:15
almost any retirement book I could find

20:16
and read them and what I found was many

20:20
of them well written very specific very

20:25
technical but everything is focused on

20:27
tactics

20:29
uh do I do Roth IRAs do I buy the

20:32
annuity do I do this specific thing

20:35
which is natural because that's where

20:37
individuals naturally live you know if

20:40
you know if um you know if I have a pain

20:43
on my arm I had well actually I had a

20:44
pinched nerve in my neck I just wanted

20:46
to go away and my first instinct go to

20:48
the doctor get an MRI and figure out

20:50
what surgery you need right that was all

20:52
tactical because I wanted this to go

20:54
away because it was

20:56
horrible um and so we live there so so a

20:58
lot of the things that we hear about

21:00
when it comes to retirement planning are

21:01
all tactical things of what we should

21:03
think about very little is

21:06
strategic I'll use my neck example so as

21:09
I went to the doctor he actually gave me

21:11
a script to go get an MRI and I said

21:12
wait a second here I'm gonna give this

21:14
three months and I'm gonna what's my

21:16
strategy to avoid these tactical

21:19
Solutions and that was rest

21:23
stretching and that was about it and

21:27
time rather than just go have the doctor

21:30
give me something to make it go away and

21:32
over time it went away so everything we

21:36
do everything I'm about with from an

21:38
agile retirement management standpoint

21:40
is organized decision making that puts

21:45
things in the right order so we can

21:46
think through things in an organized way

21:48
because and you know this St but here's

21:50
a

21:50
secret you can't figure this out if

21:54
you're 60 you can't figure

21:57
out how this is all going to work and

21:59
plan for it you just can't there's too

22:01
many unknowns and variables in your life

22:05
as well as the markets so anybody that

22:06
tells you they have the solution is

22:08
lying to you I always tell people

22:10
there's no perfect answer it's just bad

22:11
sales pitches um and everything's

22:14
customizable so it really comes down to

22:16
the specific person I want to get so

22:18
when you're go ahead so when you're

22:19
thinking I just want to make sure I hit

22:20
this point because this goes to your

22:21
question is everything that we talk

22:24
about in the process is what do we want

22:29
create a strategy that makes that

22:30
feasible because you might have to

22:32
negotiate with yourself and then once

22:34
you have a feasible strategy how do we

22:37
make it resilient so you don't get

22:39
knocked off course and then you get down

22:41
to the tactics so everybody wants to

22:44
start tactics where does this fit Is it

22:47
feasible get a good strategy make it

22:49
resilient and then you can get to all

22:50
the fancy tactical

22:53
stuff I like that I I I I hope that the

22:56
financial planning world is starting to

22:58
morph a little bit more into that as the

23:00
older financial planners age out and the

23:03
younger ones come in that they're more

23:04
attuned to that because I think with you

23:07
know the demographic Title Wave of

23:08
10,000 Baby Boomers plus turning 65

23:11
every day there's gonna it's not just

23:14
about tactics it's it's a it's about

23:17
advising people both on the money side

23:20
and the psychological side and the

23:21
lifestyle side to to put it all together

23:24
so a plan works for them but there is no

23:27
cookie cut Monte caros simulation that's

23:30
going to that's going to solve for that

23:32
I want to dig more into the Rock

23:33
retirement

23:34
Club what was the impetus for putting

23:38
that together obviously you wrote the

23:39
book and then you go was that a was that

23:43
um clients and and and people pulling

23:45
you toward that or did you have an idea

23:47
that hey this might be a space where

23:50
people can interact tell us a little bit

23:52
more about that cost how people get

23:54
involved with that we'll have the link

23:55
on on on our site for that yeah it's

23:57
about three and a half years old and it

23:59
was you know my life has changed in a

24:02
lot of ways when I or when I uh

24:04
associate myself with certain kinds of

24:06
people and so we had you we had thought

24:10
about it so we we just surveyed the

24:12
podcast and and you know we have a you

24:15
we did a survey hey would you we

24:17
thinking about doing this would you have

24:18
an interest in that what would you like

24:19
to see what wouldn't you like to see and

24:21
we were blown away by the response we

24:23
got you know almost a thousand responses

24:26
answering our questions on the survey MH

24:28
so I thought that was interesting so but

24:31
I I I didn't feel like I had enough

24:33
information so what I did was I I asked

24:35
one of my teammates to hey I want to

24:38
talk to some of these people and so I

24:40
ended up talking to about 80 people over

24:42
two days for about five to 10 minutes

24:45
each and I had a couple specific

24:48
questions and I got those answered but

24:50
after I went through that Gauntlet over

24:52
two days what I really came away with

24:55
Stan was one all these people are super

25:00
nice they're in the same stage of life

25:03
and they're Wicked

25:05
smart and if and they all would like

25:08
each other if they were around each

25:10
other that it literally brought me to

25:12
tears I'm like okay these people would

25:14
love each other so when we started the

25:16
club it was purely an experiment we

25:18
started with 20 people and just let's

25:20
figure this out and so the pillars of

25:23
the rock retirement club now is it's

25:24
filling a space in our mind between

25:27
doing it on your

25:29
own and just going on the internet

25:31
trying to find information and putting

25:32
it together or hiring a financial

25:36
planner or

25:37
advisor which typically is going all in

25:40
with somebody has you know cost involved

25:43
in that and there's not a lot in between

25:47
where you can do it on your own but not

25:50
be by yourself and other than a few

25:53
sources stand there really isn't any

25:56
place you can go to get world class

25:58
education on how to actually do

26:00
retirement that it doesn't have a sales

26:03
pitch attached to it no doubt absolutely

26:05
true and so we created The Rock

26:07
retirement Club as a safe place so

26:09
there's never an upsell there's you pay

26:12
you get everything and there's no I'm

26:14
not accepting clients I'm not using it

26:16
to grow the business so what we created

26:18
was what we feel is worldclass education

26:20
and how do you actually put together

26:22
your plan tools to be able to

26:26
execute and then coaching in group form

26:30
to learn from each other as well as Andy

26:34
Panko who is on your show he's a coach

26:35
in the club uh and others from really

26:38
quality people on taxes on Lifestyle on

26:41
putting together your paycheck and then

26:43
also learning from the community because

26:45
we got a lot of wicked smart people and

26:47
they if sure you're trying to do

26:49
something there's been somebody that's

26:51
already walked that path it has a

26:53
bogleheads flare to it but um sounds a

26:57
little bit more hip not to say

26:59
bogleheads aren't him well it's all

27:01
about be how how do we make organized

27:03
decision and I think the key okay I've

27:05
never really been on bogleheads we talk

27:07
about investment strategy but not

27:09
specifics um it's a safe place in that

27:12
we don't talk

27:13
politics uh we only we have a code of

27:16
conduct where we're all trying to help

27:18
each other and have productive

27:20
conversations and not going down rabbit

27:22
holes and we enforce that pretty pretty

27:25
heavily so it's a comfortable place

27:27
whether here we have spreadsheet Geeks

27:29
but we have people that don't know what

27:30
a spreadsheet is and so the goal is to

27:33
help help in a group way walk with

27:37
people that are on the same Journey that

27:39
have the same spirit so we can all help

27:41
each

27:41
other it's a community I I think it's a

27:44
great idea we did something similar on

27:46
Facebook we have What's called the

27:47
annuity lovers club which is a monitored

27:50
club to where people can come in and ask

27:52
questions about annuities without some

27:55
hater you know saying never buy an

27:57
annuity just going off you know so uh we

28:00
it's a safe space and we it sounds like

28:01
it sounds similar to what you're doing

28:04
but retirement as a whole is such a

28:06
broader piece I mean obviously annuities

28:08
is just one piece and it doesn't fit

28:10
everyone's situation I wanted to Pivot a

28:12
little bit and talk about current events

28:13
because you know we're on all major

28:16
podcast platforms like yours and we have

28:18
fun with an's YouTube channel and

28:19
everyone's always wanting to know where

28:21
your brain is on current events and not

28:24
that you have all the answers but you

28:26
have a high IQ in there interested to

28:28
hear your Insight because you know at

28:31
the time of this taping there's a lot

28:33
going on there's there's war there's

28:36
inflation High serious inflation there's

28:39
a mid up upcoming midterm at the time of

28:41
this

28:42
taping um I know that you don't get

28:45
caught in the weeds but a lot of people

28:47
do what's your advice to people that are

28:48
just worried because I get those calls

28:50
all the time hey Stan what do you think

28:53
about X or hey Stan how do we deal with

28:55
this or hey Stan you know should we be

28:58
concerned what are your answers to some

29:01
of the things that's going on and it's

29:02
always something's always going on

29:04
actually that last sentence is the key

29:07
to it all there's always something going

29:08
on and that's no way to live your

29:11
life

29:13
um do I do I worry about Ukraine do I

29:17
worry about inflation

29:19
sure just like I worried about tarp and

29:22
tarp 2 and all the quantitative

29:25
easing just like I worried about the

29:27
tech

29:28
bust I mean I don't have an opinion and

29:33
I don't think I need to have an opinion

29:35
so we use an agile process so we've

29:38
taken agile project management and

29:40
applied it to retirement planning okay

29:43
and the question I'm getting a lot is

29:46
inflation should I change my assumptions

29:49
in my

29:50
plan because inflation is spiking I saw

29:53
the gentleman I can't recall his name

29:55
that wrote that did this study on the 4%

29:58
rule back in the day you just had an W

30:00
fou just did one W fou did a kind of a

30:03
DI Deep dive into the 4% role yeah yeah

30:05
well the gentleman who did the original

30:07
study back in the 80s just had an

30:09
article in the JN see that okay yeah I

30:11
can't recall his name and he was

30:14
reducing his retirement spending because

30:16
he's worried about

30:19
inflation um okay but it's in the Wall

30:22
Street Journal so I don't want to over

30:24
summarize the article that is not a way

30:26
to live a life agree

30:29
um do we have to be aware of it yes but

30:32
I am very I don't change assumptions

30:34
hardly at all on anything whether it's

30:37
inflation on Market

30:39
expectations because all you're doing is

30:41
trying to predict the future I don't use

30:42
forecasted returns I've gotten into some

30:46
uh you know fun exchanges with people

30:49
that forecast investment returns and

30:51
change withdrawal rates I think that's

30:53
all a waste of time because you can't

30:55
predict the future so I don't spend any

30:58
time trying to handicap what the future

30:59
is going to be I spend all of my time on

31:03
how do we have lots of little

31:04
conversations so as reality unfolds we

31:07
can make little adjustments to our plan

31:10
so once you have a plan of record is

31:13
what we call it

31:14
Stan now you have context where you know

31:17
you've created a feasible plan and

31:19
you've made it resilient so you don't

31:21
get knocked off course easy either by

31:24
life or inflation or

31:26
markets and then you optimize it best

31:29
you can but from there that's the

31:31
beginning of the journey that gives you

31:32
the context so you don't have to read

31:36
the news every day because when you

31:37
retire you shouldn't

31:39
have any worry about the first five

31:42
years of how your life is actually going

31:43
to work that should be pretty

31:45
clear because you pre-funded your

31:47
consumption and then long term maybe you

31:50
pre-funded your base great life with

31:52
annuities or

31:54
whatever from there if you do that work

31:58
then you can have little conversations

32:00
and as life unfolds whether it's changes

32:03
in inflation or changes in your life

32:05
circumstance are probably the biggest

32:07
change we're going to see overall is

32:08
I've changed my mind I said I wanted

32:10
this I actually want that that's

32:12
actually the thing that's going to

32:13
change the most in your retirement when

32:15
you have these little conversations

32:17
you're refreshing the plan is it still

32:19
feasible is it still resilient and then

32:22
what's the biggest opportunity or the

32:24
biggest risk that I should focus on next

32:27
and how can take one action to either

32:30
mitigate that risk or take advantage of

32:31
the opportunity and you do this in an

32:33
incremental iterative way so you're

32:36
focused

32:37
on making decisions so you can navigate

32:42
as life unfolds rather than freaking out

32:46
about potential inflation forever which

32:49
nobody can predict or handicap I I think

32:51
it's a waste of

32:52
time I told someone the other day that

32:55
you know they're in their mid uh late

32:58
60s I'm like how much longer do you plan

33:02
on watching cable news and keeping up

33:03
with the news and it kind of floored

33:05
them they're like what do you mean I'm

33:06
like you've been watching it for 20

33:07
years probably 30 years at what point

33:10
are you going to realize that it's just

33:12
noise and you just got to move on with

33:13
your life I think I think that um that's

33:17
a big problem you know just just the

33:19
clickbait the the stuff that's on the

33:21
internet and people just going down the

33:22
rabbit hole I was talking to a nice lady

33:24
the other day and she brought up

33:26
something that was a conspiracy theory

33:27
I'm like where are you getting your

33:29
information I mean it just tells me that

33:31
they don't have a plan in place they

33:33
don't have a legitimate road map to what

33:35
they're trying to do and what they're

33:37
trying to accomplish um and I think that

33:39
leads into your book I think it leads

33:41
into your Club I think it leads into

33:43
your whole overview of how you approach

33:47
retirement I do love your podcast and

33:50
you do dig into specific products and

33:53
you give your opinion on that

33:56
um what have you found people gravitate

33:59
toward or do you or do they influence

34:01
your decision- making on what you're

34:03
going to talk about or how does that

34:05
come about with the podcast because I

34:07
love it it can be very specific on a on

34:09
ETFs Etc or it can be broad-based yeah

34:13
we do we do monthly themes and so the

34:17
theme next month uh is May

34:20
2022 is Functional Health which is very

34:24
different than health and exercise

34:27
functional health is how do I set myself

34:29
up to pick up my grandchild when I'm 80

34:31
or 75 or whatever the age is right it's

34:33
a very different kind of Health um in

34:37
February we did a month on inflation so

34:40
the way that I've used that used the

34:42
podcast is

34:44
one I'm I practice I work with clients

34:48
I'm having these conversations in the

34:49
club with over 800 people we're all

34:52
having conversations so I under I I'm

34:54
hearing what people are thinking about

34:57
and then I and then so that influences

35:00
and the other thing that influences I'll

35:01
use inflation as an example because that

35:03
was in February is I use the reason I do

35:06
monthlong series is because it's my way

35:08
of refreshing my

35:10
thinking and thinking through it in an

35:12
organized way so I use it as a vehicle

35:15
for me to refresh my thinking to sof

35:17
sharpen my saw so I don't get stale in

35:20
my you know you know decisions I've made

35:22
in my past has there been anything new

35:26
or an epiphany or a lightning bolt that

35:28
hit you during that monthly process that

35:30
you weren't expecting that became

35:32
something that is now facted within your

35:36
um within how you approach things can

35:38
you remember anything like that and and

35:41
this isn't because I'm on Stan the an

35:42
man show but I I haven't done the

35:45
refresh in a while but I did a I did a

35:48
month-long series on annuities okay

35:51
maybe a year year and a half ago and uh

35:54
because I have my biases against um

35:58
especially being agile uh mainly my bias

36:02
so I did a month-long series of where do

36:04
they what are they how do they fit and

36:07
then which ones fit best if you were

36:09
going to use them what are the use case

36:11
and for whom good um and during that

36:15
process and the first episode I'm like

36:17
hey I'm gonna tell you I got a bias and

36:18
this is what it is and this is why sure

36:21
uh but from that

36:23
process they be they have come into the

36:27
toolbox is something that can be used

36:30
and we now have Frameworks as to what

36:32
make who does it make sense for and how

36:34
are they used sure um and that was very

36:37
different than how I had started and I

36:39
think a lot of people you know when you

36:41
see TV I'd say I hate all annuities or

36:43
I'd rather under the Gates of Hell the

36:44
know and annuity and you know it takes

36:46
people like me out here screaming into

36:48
the hurricane to say no that's not true

36:50
let's look at the facts let's break it

36:52
down a little bit um and go from there

36:56
um

36:58
what do you think about the

37:00
current wirehouse type model with

37:03
Brokers and advisers selling specific

37:05
products or things like that and where

37:07
the financial planning world is

37:10
headed

37:12
um can they both coexist or do you see

37:15
one going away because in my personal

37:17
opinion having worked for the wirehouse

37:19
firms that's an interesting model that

37:22
I'm not sure is sustainable unless they

37:24
change it drastically what's your your

37:27
thought on that I don't think about it

37:31
much but from an industry

37:36
standpoint I think

37:40
that I don't know timing but where I

37:43
think we're going to go is that a true

37:47
Financial advis financial planner is

37:50
going

37:51
to become coupled with a life planner

37:55
and the problem with financial planning

37:57
and in in in financial advisors in

37:59
general and this is going to sound weird

38:00
is that the Hub of

38:02
everything are investments and

38:05
money that's the Hub of which all

38:08
processes lead back to right um and

38:13
especially in retirement planning that's

38:15
a horrible Hub because it's what we

38:17
talked about the Hub should be what type

38:19
of

38:21
Life how do I live my best life so I

38:25
can be on my deathbed with the least

38:28
amount of regrets that should be the Hub

38:30
of everything in retirement planning and

38:33
financial planning and retirement

38:34
planning have Investments as the Hub and

38:37
so I think the future of financial

38:39
council is going to

38:41
be less about the money as the Hub and

38:45
the person's life as the Hub and we're

38:47
going to be agnostic to Investments or

38:49
products from a compensation standpoint

38:52
we're going to be paid directly by the

38:54
client whether it's retainer like Andy

38:56
Andy P does whatever it is

39:00
because we're going to be decision

39:02
making Partners around lots of decisions

39:06
financial and non-financial and you

39:08
can't do that as easily if you're if you

39:13
have Investments as the Hub that's where

39:15
we're going I agree with you I agree

39:18
with you and I think the younger

39:19
Generations coming behind us or might

39:21
maybe AR are more open to that and more

39:25
open to that model um because I think as

39:28
uh the younger Generations are more open

39:30
to you know using a psychiatrist or a

39:32
psychologist I think that it's not as

39:34
taboo as it is with say like my mom who

39:37
would what you know she would never

39:38
consider that for whatever reason it's

39:41
probably generational but I think you're

39:43
right and I think it's going to be it's

39:44
like everything else it's it can't stay

39:46
the same it's got to improve and morph

39:50
into what's proc consumer not what the

39:53
companies want to happen to the consumer

39:56
and the financial businesses is like the

39:58
last Bastion of that in my opinion yeah

40:00
the difficulty I think Stan is uh the

40:02
financial services industry is at its

40:05
core a distribution system it's not a

40:08
financial planning structure so the

40:11
industry is about distribution of

40:14
product and so how do you take a

40:16
distribution system and make it about

40:18
the client I don't know we'll let the

40:21
markets figure that out

40:24
but I in the problem with going this

40:27
Direction I think from the the firms

40:29
that you talk about is that is not easy

40:31
to

40:32
scale it's not easy to

40:36
scale personal planning with someone and

40:38
being a decision-making partner with

40:40
someone where I mean Andy knows this for

40:43
sure Andy Peno who was on your show a

40:46
month or so ago is oh a lot of financial

40:50
advisers can't do any tax thinking or

40:52
talking they can't do any tax planning

40:55
true uh especially at the large firm

40:57
and in retirement that's probably

41:00
financially one of the biggest levers

41:01
that you can pull to impact your life so

41:05
I don't know how all that works uh I

41:08
personally think that and this is part

41:10
of my life mission what whatever you

41:12
want to call it is the agile process is

41:16
going to become the standard Pro

41:19
financial planning process because the

41:21
traditional financial planning process

41:24
is focused on the wrong things and too

41:26
bloated it's not engaging to

41:28
people you might have just answered the

41:31
question I'm getting ready to ask but I

41:32
I want you to dig in deeper 20 years

41:34
from now where is Roger Whitney and what

41:36
is Roger Whitney is Roger Whitney still

41:38
doing this at a much larger level what

41:42
do you you know where do you see

41:43
yourself what's the what's the um I know

41:45
we don't we plan you know we live life

41:47
for the day but when we're on this

41:50
podcast 20 years from now what's what's

41:51
happened between this I'll be 75 20

41:54
years from now you'll be you'll be

41:55
rolling man you'll be rolling so

41:57
my rabbit in this case is a gentleman

41:59
named Dan Miller okay who wrote 48 days

42:02
to the work you love New York Times

42:04
bestseller I've known him for a good

42:06
period of time he's a good friend and

42:08
he's 70 sorry Dan I'm not sure 72

42:12
73 and he and his wife Joanne have the

42:16
marriage I want to I want to have with

42:18
my wife when I'm in my 70 he is more

42:21
alive and more entrepreneurial than he's

42:23
ever been so where am I going to be

42:29
the club will be the core of

42:31
everything and how do when I think of

42:35
the club and the future of the rock

42:36
retirement Club is it's how do we all

42:39
help each other the motto of the club is

42:41
a walk with the wise become wise is how

42:45
do we walk together with people and and

42:47
help each other make decisions and

42:50
actually

42:51
operationalized rocking retirement

42:54
because in retire oh financial plan

42:57
there's lots of information about things

42:58
you should think about but there's

43:00
nothing that actually shows you how to

43:02
do it so as an example we're about to

43:06
release our first decision pod that's a

43:09
complement to the master class that

43:11
helps people create their their major

43:12
plan and that is how do I manage

43:14
long-term

43:15
care right so it's not an

43:18
education course on what is long-term

43:21
care what are all the things there's a

43:23
little bit of that but it's really a

43:25
process and Tool tools to Think Through

43:28
the decision for yourself so you can do

43:30
it in an organized way and then you can

43:33
get to the spot where you make a

43:34
judgment so I'm that's where we're going

43:37
is how do we operate help people

43:39
actually do this and make these

43:41
decisions um yeah that's where and the

43:44
resources section of of Roger site is

43:47
unbelievable it's it's it's I'm assuming

43:50
that's where a lot of that's going to be

43:52
in addition to the membership into the

43:53
Rock retirement club which I think is um

43:56
I like I like the background to that I

43:59
think that is that's very very cool um

44:04
so we're kind of coming up to the end of

44:05
the of the podcast because I think we've

44:07
covered a lot and I certainly would like

44:08
to have you on in the future to to dig

44:11
in give us some updates on Rock

44:12
retirement and where you're headed but

44:14
as I do with all my celebrity guests at

44:16
the very end I give you the mic drop

44:18
moment which is I'm gonna throw you the

44:20
mic you're going to say some

44:21
unbelievably cool and heady and then

44:23
you're going to drop it and then we're

44:24
going to finish it up so Mike drop

44:26
moment Roger Whitney

44:29
aka the retirement answerman

44:34
go the one thing that is lacking most

44:37
for many people is

44:40
hope when they retirement they're hope

44:43
you know they're so worried about the

44:45
future and making sure they're okay that

44:49
they're just hoping they survive it and

44:50
can have some fun along the

44:53
way and but to really have hope you need

44:57
need three

44:58
things and these three things get robbed

45:01
of people in retirement especially if

45:03
they lose their job the first thing you

45:05
need to have hope is you need to have an

45:08
inspiring goal a vision of a of a better

45:12
state for yourself in the

45:14
future the second thing you need to have

45:16
to have hope is

45:18
agency the belief that you actually have

45:21
some ability to act to make that future

45:25
state for yourself so and in retirement

45:27
we get a lot of our agency robbed we

45:29
feel like we're at the whim of the world

45:32
and the last thing that you need to have

45:34
hope are Pathways not just one but

45:37
Pathways where you can apply your agency

45:40
depending on how life unfolds and I

45:42
think those are the things that we

45:44
generally get robbed of in retirement we

45:46
just hope we survive it but if we can

45:48
have an inspiring goal and we can

45:49
actually have agency that we have some

45:51
control over it and we can have a

45:53
framework of decision making so we can

45:55
actually apply that agency to work to

45:57
this better

45:59
life that's how you rock

46:01
retirement ladies and gentlemen that is

46:03
Roger Whitney he's the retirement

46:05
answerman if you didn't think he was

46:06
before that statement then um game set

46:09
match in my opinion I want to thank

46:11
everyone on all major PL podcast

46:13
platforms for joining us today on fun

46:15
with annuities and the people that are

46:17
watching Roger and I on the fun with

46:19
annuities YouTube channel we will see

46:21
you next time

46:27
a