Michael Finke: Why Annuities Make Sense Right Now

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welcome to fun with annuities I'm your

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host Dan the annuity man America's

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annuity agent licensed in all 50 states

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man sweatshirt that's been tie-dyed

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just incredible the fashion statements

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that I make every single day and then

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over one shoulder you see four Flying V

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Gibson guitars which is the reason is

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it's

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it's uh it's kind of me saying we're

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getting ready to rock and roll and when

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I say that I have a rock star on with me

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today a repeat guest host I I mean every

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time I'm looking something up on

1:09
annuities I see an article he's come up

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with and um

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you know uh as I say I've got a new

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saying for him if it's time to do some

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annuity think let's bring in Rockstar

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Michael finka hey man how are you I'm

1:25
good how are you

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Stan where's my swag I I know I want a

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tie-dyed stand the annuity man t-shirt

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the question is before we get started if

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I put that up on eBay how much would it

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fetch

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uh yeah

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I'm thinking thousands I'm thinking

1:43
there would be an absolute bidding war

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right right there's two people that bid

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on it first people that actually like

1:50
the brand and those are consumers and

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then you'd have a bunch of agents that

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would bid it and then burn it or have a

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ceremony

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and that's okay that's okay good to talk

2:02
to you again as always thanks man tell

2:05
me what's new with you Michael finco

2:07
what are you looking at other than

2:09
the conundrum that we're in of large

2:13
debt Rising rates and a retirement

2:15
semi-crisis

2:17
yeah well so let's not start on that

2:19
negative foot let's let's move to a more

2:21
positive aspect of what's going on in

2:23
this crazy market and that is that near

2:27
retirees can lock in 5.2 percent on

2:31
migas on Five-Year migas for the next

2:33
five years at the time of this taping at

2:36
the time of this taping uh you know may

2:39
go up may go down now let's talk a

2:41
little bit about interest rates because

2:42
I think yeah

2:43
uh if you look at what's known as the

2:47
yield curve which is the interest rates

2:50
that you get for investing in two years

2:52
and five years and 10-year bonds what

2:55
you see is that the market thinks that

2:57
these high interest rates are not going

2:59
to last forever there's what's known as

3:00
an inverted yield curve on bonds so what

3:04
that means is that once you go 10 years

3:05
out the markets actually think that it

3:07
that interest rates are going to be

3:08
lower than they are for the next two

3:10
years yeah

3:12
um and this presents a conundrum I think

3:14
for a lot of investors right now which

3:16
is it seems like we been waiting forever

3:18
to get high rates of return on safe

3:20
Investments

3:23
and as we know annuities are a very

3:26
efficient wrapper for safe Investments

3:28
because safe Investments are very tax

3:32
inefficient so your bond your CD

3:35
Investments they get whacked that you're

3:38
taxed at your ordinary income rate State

3:40
Plus Federal so for some people you know

3:43
if you live in California that can be 50

3:45
percent of all of your gains you're

3:47
paying in the form of Taxation but if

3:50
you house them within an annuity you're

3:53
not taxed on the gains every year now

3:55
when annuities were maybe two percent

3:57
that was no not a huge deal when they're

4:00
five percent that all of a sudden

4:02
becomes a bigger deal so if you put in

4:05
500 000 and you're making twenty six

4:08
thousand dollars of interest on it

4:10
um that's a significant amount of tax

4:12
savings that you can get over the course

4:13
of a five-year time Horizon I mean

4:15
that's that's over a hundred and twenty

4:17
five hundred and thirty thousand dollars

4:18
in interest that you can expect to earn

4:20
and then at retirement so this is the

4:22
play that I think a lot of people are

4:24
not giving enough thought to if you're

4:27
62 63 you're the peak of the baby boom

4:30
right now you're planning on retiring

4:32
between 65 and 67. you buy one of these

4:36
things you pull the money out after five

4:39
years you're in a lower marginal tax

4:41
bracket than you were today and the

4:46
interest may or may not be enough to

4:48
push you up into a higher marginal tax

4:50
bracket if that's the case you can roll

4:51
over part of it into another type of

4:53
annuity you can be very strategic about

4:56
your tax planning in a way that you

4:57
can't be if your savings is not within

5:00
the annuity structure so you know a lot

5:02
of us are thinking also of locking in

5:06
those High rates on future income so

5:09
again if you're uh 55 60 years old right

5:13
now and I just had a conversation with a

5:14
friend of mine who works for a big

5:16
brokerage company and he gets these

5:19
quotes in on annuities every day

5:21
um and he's a smart guy like he under

5:23
understands the benefit of annuities

5:25
and we're both like you know he's a

5:27
little bit older than I am and he's

5:29
thinking I need to just take money and

5:31
buy one of these things like a 10-year

5:33
deferred so that I can get 10 years of

5:36
deferral at a really shockingly high

5:38
interest rate correct and they'll buy me

5:40
a very high income in the future so if I

5:43
can you know a great example of this is

5:45
like qlex qlex is so interest sensitive

5:48
that it used to be that 145 000 might

5:51
buy you 35 or 40 000 of income now it'll

5:54
buy you fifty thousand dollars of income

5:55
in the age of 85. that's right all of a

5:58
sudden it's like I can buy future

6:00
lifestyle pretty easily and uh it's it's

6:04
we're in a situation today where it's

6:06
far more attractive than it was a year

6:08
ago and we just don't know where rates

6:10
are going I mean it it it's looking like

6:13
the FED is potentially going to increase

6:15
increase rates none of us know exactly

6:18
what's going to happen in the future but

6:21
there is also this possibility that

6:24
we're going to enter into some kind of a

6:26
recession the FED is going to very

6:28
quickly start pulling back on those

6:29
rates because it's going to it seemed

6:31
that the economy is starting to cool

6:33
significantly sure in which case locking

6:35
yourself into today's high rates I mean

6:37
it's possible they could go up a little

6:39
bit but it's also possible that they

6:40
could go down

6:43
the bill didn't ring at the top man you

6:45
know and you know how quickly those

6:47
things get repriced sure you know once

6:49
things start falling then insurance

6:52
companies are very aggressive about

6:54
reining in some of the generosity uh if

6:58
interest rates start going down so

6:59
that's and I think that probably right

7:01
now the biggest story for me is

7:04
that tax deferral benefit that you get

7:06
from an annuity that you don't get from

7:08
CDs and a lot of people are feeling like

7:11
I don't want to deal with all this

7:12
Market volatility I want safety but the

7:14
thing that you have to remember about

7:15
safety in a high interest rate

7:17
environment is that you pay for it you

7:19
pay for it in the form of higher income

7:21
taxes so you've got to give some thought

7:23
to using an annuity I think the annuity

7:26
rapper on safe Investments the single

7:28
most underused strategy in financial

7:31
planning today sure that's because

7:33
people when they they hear the word

7:34
annuity they think it's one product they

7:37
don't know that there's multiple

7:39
products and so there's High fees you

7:42
know and then on a multi-guaranteed

7:44
annuity it is what it is like you get

7:46
you're right there's no extra fees on

7:48
top of that right right and um you know

7:52
I'm a big proponent of what I call my

7:53
good espia I did a video on it that kind

7:56
of went viral that's that you know let's

7:58
strip out all the fees you have control

8:00
over the asset you can pivot at the end

8:02
of the duration or you can transfer it

8:03
and shut for the highest contractual

8:05
guarantee to that time with a immediate

8:07
annuity instead of buying the Deferred

8:09
income annuity or an income Rider you

8:12
know a lot of people are looking at that

8:13
and the other thing the other thing I

8:14
would tell always tell people you know

8:16
Michael I'm from the Deep South so I

8:18
think differently you know if you won

8:19
the game why are you still playing I

8:21
always tell people yeah you know if you

8:23
got a million dollars or two million

8:24
dollars whatever it is whatever the

8:26
money amount of money is and you

8:27
multiply it by five

8:29
or four if you're gonna you know pepper

8:31
it around with CDs and treasuries and

8:34
never touch the principle can you live

8:35
off that interest it's really that

8:37
simple we're we're at the point now

8:38
where people can actually live off the

8:40
interest is it Jimmy Carter years no but

8:43
we haven't seen this in a long long long

8:45
time you know so it's a different and I

8:49
think a lot of people are looking at at

8:52
myga's multi-year guarantee annuities

8:54
which is the annuity Industries version

8:55
of a CD and they never ever

8:58
heard about it before which is

9:00
interesting

9:01
it is interesting but Stan they become a

9:04
lot more popular I just looked at the

9:05
sales data in 2022 so far those fixed

9:10
annuities they're dominating half of

9:12
that was me Michael just letting you

9:14
know

9:15
um I'm not surprised

9:17
we ton that and we've been doing that

9:20
for a long time uh what people have to

9:22
know is the commissions for all annuity

9:24
types are built in Mica commissions are

9:26
just very very low that's the reason the

9:28
bad chicken dinner seminar isn't given

9:30
on migas because they don't have that

9:33
what else is you wrote an article

9:35
recently about wealthy people and

9:37
annuities I forgot the title but I read

9:39
it and it was pretty interesting what

9:41
drove you there to talk about those Rich

9:43
evil people Michael well no I would

9:45
always actually talking about is a new

9:48
study came out from Morningstar and when

9:50
Morningstar comes out with a new study

9:52
uh a lot of people pay attention to it

9:54
one of the things they said was that for

9:57
uh richer people you know annuities

9:59
don't really provide that much value but

10:03
we got to Define Rich what's that mean

10:05
well I mean for them it was you know

10:08
people whose assets or maybe 25 times

10:11
what their income is but that includes

10:12
Social Security

10:13
more but the thing is the the problem

10:17
that I had is the methodology and uh you

10:20
know I just pointed the first one out I

10:22
mean some people think they're rich and

10:23
they have X amount and other people

10:25
would think that's poor you know just

10:27
something

10:27
the customization of it all

10:31
and the question is uh you know is what

10:34
is the welfare benefit from and it's

10:37
it's kind of a economist word like how

10:39
much happier do you does it make is that

10:41
what welfare benefit means because

10:43
that's a horrific phrase it is a

10:45
horrific phrase but it's used by US

10:47
economists all the time you know we

10:48
don't need to up your game man y'all

10:51
need to bring me in and give you

10:52
southernisms like Southern Saints

10:54
because we would never use the word

10:55
welfare benefits

10:58
hey you're getting a welfare benefit and

11:00
people like I'm never going to be on

11:02
welfare over my life so let me tell you

11:05
something a working man son I mean you

11:08
gotta you gotta rethink this stuff

11:10
you are absolutely correct our marketing

11:13
skills are not that great horrific

11:16
but the idea is that a lot of times in

11:18
financial planning where people use or

11:19
what's known as a failure rate analysis

11:22
they use with a Monte Carlo okay what a

11:25
Monte Carlo does is it gives you it

11:28
spits out this number which is the

11:30
probability of success which means it's

11:33
the probability that you can

11:34
successfully from an Investment

11:36
Portfolio withdraw a certain amount of

11:39
income I like Monte Carlo as a place and

11:43
as the race

11:44
that's kind of played out though isn't

11:46
it all these I mean seriously well you

11:49
know that's why economists don't use it

11:50
is is that it gives you information that

11:52
is not complete so what it tells you is

11:55
if you let's say you've got a million

11:56
bucks and you want to pull out what

11:58
what's a spear rate right now

12:01
one that question has to do with your

12:03
age you know that that was a setup

12:05
question don't don't do that don't even

12:07
try to play me Michael you know me

12:08
better than that well mostly anime

12:10
started like 65. so sorry 65 year old

12:13
male

12:15
I'd have to run the quote I'd have to

12:17
run the quote pick a number

12:20
60 000 a year okay and okay so let's

12:25
let's compare that to an Investment

12:27
Portfolio with stocks and bonds and

12:29
let's say what is the probability that

12:31
you can successfully withdraw sixty

12:34
thousand dollars from a portfolio of

12:35
stocks and bonds

12:37
um and then let's use like historical

12:40
stock return data from the United States

12:43
from back during periods when stocks

12:45
really dominated bonds which by the way

12:47
has not happened since 1990.

12:50
um here's a stat for you since 19 since

12:54
1990 a dollar in the S P 500 has never

12:58
grown to more than seven dollars over 20

13:01
years

13:02
between 1934 and 1953 a dollar never

13:06
grew to less than seven dollars every

13:10
single year during that time period

13:12
between 1934 and 1953 one dollar never

13:16
grew to less than seven dollars over the

13:19
next 20 years but since 1990 that has

13:22
never happened once so we're using a lot

13:25
of people use a Monte Carlo are using

13:27
these data from nice a period where

13:30
stocks really dominated other types of

13:33
Investments and then they project the

13:35
likelihood that you can withdraw sixty

13:38
thousand dollars from a million dollar

13:39
portfolio using those historical data

13:42
which are probably not relevant going

13:44
forward

13:45
um but and then it gives you it spits

13:47
out well there's a an 80 probability of

13:50
success what does that mean there's an

13:52
88 probability using historical data

13:55
that are not relevant that you're not

13:57
going to run out of money what that

13:59
doesn't tell you is that when you do run

14:01
out of money between 20 percent of the

14:03
time using these simulations you got to

14:05
live off Social Security okay so they

14:08
say well you're toast yeah and that

14:10
that's what economists say is wait a

14:12
minute let's let's look at how bad

14:14
things can get when you actually do run

14:16
out so you know if you buy an annuity

14:18
and let's say you've got two people you

14:21
know one of them has two million dollars

14:22
of savings they use a million dollars to

14:24
buy sixty thousand dollars of income the

14:26
other one just has two million dollars

14:28
and they try to pull out an income and

14:30
the one with two million dollars tries

14:31
to match the same income when they run

14:33
out they got to live off Social Security

14:35
the one who used a million dollars to

14:37
buy sixty thousand dollars of an annuity

14:38
they've got sixty thousand plus thirty

14:40
thousand dollars of Social Security

14:42
their worst case scenario is that

14:44
they're living on ninety thousand

14:46
dollars a year but they both they might

14:48
both have the same failure rate we're

14:49
the one who bought the annuity might

14:50
have a lower failure rate depending on

14:52
how you model it out or a higher failure

14:54
rate but even if they do

14:56
what's the consequences so when you buy

14:58
an annuity especially if you take part

15:00
of a chunk of your savings advice and

15:02
you're talking about when you say

15:02
annuity you're talking about lifetime

15:04
income annuity

15:05
okay okay and and let's say you know you

15:08
take a chunk of your savings you use it

15:10
to buy an annuity you're essentially

15:12
buying yourself a minimum standard of

15:15
living forever no matter how long you

15:18
live and so if we model out a thousand

15:21
different potential retirements the ones

15:24
who will have an annuity will on average

15:26
be happier but the ones with an

15:29
Investment Portfolio might have a

15:31
slightly higher probability of success

15:33
but there's no information about what

15:35
failure means the Community College

15:37
version what he just said was you either

15:39
want to shoulder the risk or transfer

15:41
the risk one of the two it really comes

15:44
down to and yes community colleges are

15:46
great because they teach trades Michael

15:47
I mean they yes we need plumbers and

15:51
electricians and things like that what's

15:53
the probability Michael of me having six

15:55
pack abs my wife wants to know

15:58
can we run a Monte Carlo on my abdomen

16:02
muscles

16:04
it's not good his algae here

16:06
[Laughter]

16:09
listen you come on this on the program

16:12
you know I'm gonna push the envelope man

16:15
and I'm thinking myself can you run a

16:17
Monte Carlo there's no chance that this

16:20
person here in this nice

16:22
red tie-dyed thing isn't going to have

16:26
six-pack abs but that's all I care about

16:27
Michael can I have six pack abs

16:30
um that's that's why I was when people

16:32
call me and they'll say well this guy

16:33
told me that this or new to do this and

16:35
this and this and this I'm like listen

16:37
you have a better chance of having

16:38
six-pack abs and I don't know you but

16:40
you're not going to happen

16:42
that's my analogy to the good too good

16:45
to be true sales pitches that are out

16:47
there so

16:48
um what else is new in the annuity

16:50
industry Mr finka

16:53
um what are you working on what's the

16:55
super secret double secret probation

16:57
project you're on well gosh so one of

17:00
the things that we may or may not have

17:02
talked about in the past is

17:04
um how having greater guaranteed income

17:07
actually allows you to take more risk

17:09
with the remainder of your Investment

17:11
Portfolio I think something that not a

17:12
lot of people give thought to first of

17:14
all when you buy an annuity an income

17:17
annuity that's part of the bond portion

17:19
of your portfolio and again I was

17:21
mentioning before that you can can use

17:23
an annuity as a substitute for part of

17:25
your CDs or your bonds sure and you get

17:29
that additional tax deferral benefit but

17:32
something that I like to think a lot

17:33
about is okay you're close to retirement

17:35
you've got this asset allocation you

17:37
have some of it in qualified some of it

17:38
non-qualified you start moving the chess

17:40
pieces a little bit and how does that

17:43
impact the optimal allocation outside of

17:46
those chess pieces so I have two million

17:49
dollars of savings I use 500 000 to buy

17:51
myself an income annuity what does that

17:55
entail in terms of what the rest of my

17:57
portfolio should look like and what it

17:59
should look like is if I if I got a 50

18:01
50 portfolio then I can actually

18:05
continue to invest a million dollars of

18:07
my two million dollars in stocks I now

18:10
have five hundred thousand dollars in

18:11
bonds and in fact I might even be able

18:13
to go to 1.1 million dollars of stocks

18:15
and four hundred thousand dollars of

18:17
bonds again because my safety net that I

18:19
built is bigger uh the the worst case

18:21
scenario is better so I mean what risk

18:24
and retirement means is spending

18:26
volatility and if you take more risk

18:29
you're going to have more volatility of

18:31
your spending you're gonna have a higher

18:33
probability that you're gonna have to

18:34
cut back that's really what risk means

18:36
it means that let's talk also about 2022

18:40
because I don't think we've done that

18:41
and if you would have started out the

18:44
beginning of the year uh with a million

18:47
dollars and you would have you would

18:50
have done the four percent rule so you

18:52
got two retirees they each got a million

18:53
bucks one follows the four percent rule

18:55
they think they can spend forty thousand

18:57
dollars a year plus inflation forty

18:59
three thousand two hundred dollars next

19:00
year

19:01
um the other one decides to wait nine

19:03
months to retire and they had a million

19:06
bucks now they've got eight hundred

19:08
thousand dollars and the financial

19:09
advisor tells them no you know we're

19:11
gonna follow the four percent rule you

19:12
can spend thirty two thousand dollars a

19:14
year plus inflation that doesn't make

19:16
any sense this this guy over here

19:18
started with a million bucks he's now

19:20
down to eight hundred thousand dollars

19:21
minus whatever he spent over the last

19:23
nine months he's got even less money and

19:25
you're telling him or her that she can

19:28
spend forty three thousand two hundred

19:29
dollars next year and the other one

19:31
you're telling you can spend you know

19:33
thirty two thousand plus inflation next

19:35
year you have to be willing to be

19:38
flexible when it comes to spending if

19:40
you take investment risk and I think

19:42
oftentimes people don't really fully

19:44
understand that and I think people are

19:46
beginning to become aware of it in fact

19:47
when I look on the boards of retirees

19:51
what I'm seeing a lot of people talking

19:52
about these days is I did not know this

19:55
could happen I I started my advisors

19:58
said I was going to be fine I started

20:00
out with his nest egg I reached my goal

20:02
you know a lot of people hit their gold

20:03
number in 2021 they decided they were

20:05
going to retire sure now they get a lot

20:07
less money and they're saying I gotta go

20:09
back to work or my advisor is stupid you

20:12
know they put me in these things I like

20:15
the my advisor stupid broad brush

20:17
because that's pretty good of course

20:20
that doesn't include me

20:22
um but yeah I do like that now go ahead

20:25
it's the market right you know all all

20:28
everybody that was in the market lost

20:30
that money I lost that money you lost

20:32
some of your money I mean we all lost I

20:34
don't do markets come on man I only do

20:36
contractual guarantees but I will tell

20:37
people that most advisors today I have

20:39
cowboy boots that are older than them

20:41
they have only seen bull Marcus they

20:43
have not seen people walk out in the

20:44
front yard and vomit you know and I

20:47
started in the Securities industry in 87

20:49
uh if you that that that gear rings a

20:52
bell there's a reason

20:54
um you know markets don't always just

20:57
historically go up and up and up and up

20:59
quickly over time they do but I think

21:01
for the baby boomer the conundrum

21:04
the head scratcher is what do I do here

21:06
do I have enough money to win the game

21:07
and just peel off interest or create an

21:09
income floor do I still want to play the

21:11
game my opinion Michael is

21:14
you know the the whole people saying to

21:17
everyone well you got to go to college

21:18
you got to buy a house you got to go you

21:19
gotta gotta get a dog you got to be in

21:22
the markets

21:23
do you if you have enough money and just

21:25
want to peel off interest or create a

21:27
lifetime income stream do you really

21:28
need to be there

21:31
it's a great question and I think most

21:33
of us who have talked I have friends

21:35
obviously we're this group of retirement

21:38
dorks who talk to each other about

21:40
uh what we hope to do with our own

21:42
retirement is that retirementdorks.com

21:44
yes uh

21:47
it needs to be it's a special Club

21:49
you're invited by the way Stan you call

21:51
me a dork is that wait a minute swallow

21:53
down

21:56
it's an exclusive Club oh thank you very

21:59
much but we all I mean when it comes to

22:01
our retirement that's how we want to

22:02
play it like we we can take risks during

22:05
the accumulation stage but when we get

22:08
close to retirement we I just want to

22:09
lock it in and I don't have to think

22:11
about it I don't have to worry about

22:12
what's going on in the markets when I'm

22:14
deciding whether or not I can go on

22:15
vacation next year I don't have to say

22:18
well wait a minute you know the markets

22:19
are down I'm not going to be able to do

22:21
that I want to be able to lock in as

22:23
much as I can lock in without the fear

22:25
and I know the older I get the more it's

22:27
going to bother me and that actually

22:28
shows up in the data is that we do get

22:29
and you're like you're like 32 right

22:31
Michael absolutely yes how did you know

22:34
I know I just took a stab at it just

22:37
your voice no I'm kidding um you know I

22:39
always tell people there's no U-Hauls

22:40
behind hearses I'm trying to I'm trying

22:42
to figure out how to quantify that with

22:44
a formula

22:45
um but you know I do think that people

22:48
and I'm pounding the table a little bit

22:49
out here for the Baby Boomers to

22:51
consider and look at their situation

22:53
that you might not only want to retire

22:54
from your job you might want to retire

22:56
from the markets

22:59
if you can a lot of people can't but if

23:03
you can

23:04
and I think that these choppy markets

23:06
and and I think we're getting at the

23:08
time of this taping I think people are

23:09
listening to standing new to man because

23:12
you know it's lifestyle in chapter two

23:14
of your life so what are you and the

23:17
dorks doing to get this message out

23:21
retirement dorks I I've got to go get

23:24
that domain

23:25
um to get the message out in English to

23:27
people not you know I I I'll let you

23:30
finish that question here's a great

23:31
comment guy was calling me the other day

23:33
and he was looking at annuity product a

23:35
very complex one we won't mention it and

23:37
his comment was in southern he goes you

23:39
know I didn't know mathematical formulas

23:42
had letters in it I'm like it does okay

23:45
and that's not a good thing so so what's

23:50
the messaging

23:52
that we're trying to get across other

23:54
than just hiring me and paying me a huge

23:56
retainer to do it right what are you

23:57
guys doing you know one of the things

23:59
that I'm a big fan of is telling people

24:02
if you try to do it yourself first of

24:05
all you have to pick a failure rate a

24:08
probability that you know what's it what

24:10
age do you want to run out oh by the way

24:13
this is all prefaced with a discussion

24:15
that begins

24:17
you're gonna die so I have a friend of

24:20
mine who's a research beautiful yeah

24:22
he's a researcher who studies this idea

24:25
of people's unwillingness to accept

24:27
their own mortality and whenever anybody

24:30
brings up anything I mean there's a

24:31
reason why it's called life insurance

24:32
and not death insurance and even though

24:34
it is death Insurance uh it's because

24:36
people don't want to acknowledge the

24:39
fact that they're going to die but as if

24:42
you're going to do retirement planning

24:43
right you've got to acknowledge the fact

24:45
that you're not going to live forever

24:46
hopefully you're going to live a really

24:48
long time but none of us know so there's

24:50
only two places your money can go your

24:52
money can either go to other people you

24:54
know when you die

24:56
all that all that fun that you could

24:58
have had get spent by someone else my

25:00
daughter's showing up to my funeral in a

25:01
Lamborghini that's what's going to

25:03
happen it is and it's actually the

25:06
research is so much fun because when

25:08
people get these inheritances it's

25:10
always the ones who like having a whole

25:12
lot of fun who spend it down the fastest

25:14
and they're the ones you know every

25:16
generation has those people who didn't

25:18
really accumulate much money in their

25:20
lifetime but when they get the money

25:22
they know how to spend it like they know

25:23
how to live so either either the money

25:26
goes to that kid who is really good at

25:29
spending money or it goes to your

25:31
lifestyle and and if it's gonna go to

25:33
your lifestyle you got two choices you

25:35
can uh you can try to spread it out or

25:38
you can buy yourself some sort of a

25:40
guaranteed income product that allows

25:42
you to spend we've talked about this

25:43
before the birthday cake problem it

25:45
allows you to spend more every year

25:47
without having to worry about

25:48
potentially running out that's why you

25:49
do it that's why economists say it's a

25:51
puzzle that we're not buying more of

25:52
these things but I think the big the big

25:54
thing you have to overcome is

25:56
recognizing that you're not going to

25:58
live forever and you either have to cut

26:00
little little slices of the birthday

26:01
cake or you can spend more with less

26:04
worry so why not just do that what

26:06
worries you Michael finka other than

26:08
waking up in the morning and just

26:10
continuing to be vibrant and Young

26:13
what worries me

26:15
you know frankly uh right now and it's

26:19
probably the same thing that you

26:20
mentioned at the very beginning of the

26:21
podcast which is one of the consequences

26:24
of really high interest rates the FED

26:27
raising these rates is that it's

26:29
crowding out everything in the federal

26:31
budget and absolutely you know that

26:35
makes me worry about spending austerity

26:38
which is another one of those funds holy

26:40
crap I love the views uh you know that

26:42
sounds like an Affliction like spending

26:45
austerity means that I've got money but

26:47
I don't know what it's for that's what

26:50
that means to me I don't need that y'all

26:52
need the federal government only has so

26:54
much money it can spend and if it's

26:56
spending a ton of money on interest

26:57
payments then it's not going to be able

26:59
to spend as much money on things like

27:02
generous Medicare and social security

27:04
benefit increases over time that's good

27:07
that's good I love your friend you guys

27:09
need to come up with these phrases and

27:11
then sell t-shirts on

27:12
retirementdorks.com you know spending

27:15
austerity what was the level in the

27:16
welfare

27:18
yeah welfare I've got I've got I mean

27:21
it's just like what in the world are

27:23
y'all talking about Economist jargon and

27:26
then I'm over here doing all the

27:27
southernisms like you know squeezing oil

27:30
out of a brick that's what we're doing

27:32
right here we're trying to get the

27:34
highest contractual guarantee we're

27:35
squeezing a lot of a brick but you know

27:37
I think that's part of the annuity

27:39
industry's problem is we have not

27:41
messaged it right to people in their in

27:45
English that they fully understand

27:47
because the way that we talk about it

27:49
seems complex but truly annuity types

27:53
are very simple if explained properly

27:55
this isn't they are they really couldn't

27:58
be any easier I really I mean yeah I

28:00
mean I always say if you can't explain

28:01
it to a nine-year-old don't buy it no

28:03
offense to nine-year-olds it really is

28:05
that simple I mean because everyone will

28:07
they're expensive and they're can't

28:10
understand them you know and I'm like

28:12
you know I told a guy the other day and

28:13
I was trying to explain why because I

28:15
told him I said I'm a little frustrated

28:17
I feel like I'm showing a painting to

28:18
blind person you know because they just

28:20
didn't understand the correlation

28:21
between CD and mind I'm like he's really

28:23
that simple don't don't make it any more

28:25
difficult right and so

28:27
um so that that worries you but what

28:30
makes you get up in the morning put on

28:32
the running shoes you know you you run

28:34
seven to ten miles every morning as you

28:35
know after that run went what makes you

28:38
want to just go get it I got to keep up

28:40
those six-pack abs yeah man I mean you

28:43
know you're you're my yeah you're kind

28:44
of the idol that I'm looking for so what

28:46
I mean what what motivates you what

28:48
keeps you going Michael

28:49
well I mean first of all uh we have this

28:53
huge Baby Boom cohort and I worry about

28:56
them frankly I I think that it's the

28:58
first generation that's gonna have to

29:00
rely entirely on savings to fund their

29:03
lifestyle I think they had a really

29:05
great time back in 2021 the markets were

29:09
doing fantastic all of them felt really

29:11
rich uh but I I was really worried then

29:14
and and I'm worried that they don't have

29:16
the right information about what they're

29:20
supposed to do with that money after

29:21
they retire I think we've we've really

29:23
dropped the ball as a society on those

29:26
retirees we don't have any moment where

29:29
we sit down with them and say all right

29:31
you got this pot of money what do you

29:33
want to do with it what's your goal uh

29:35
how do you want to live like let's start

29:36
with the lifestyle that you want to lead

29:38
and then let's build that plan around it

29:40
and to the extent that I can educate

29:42
people on making some of these choices I

29:46
see it is an opportunity to help people

29:49
live better

29:50
um but I think they just have no idea

29:51
they don't understand what these

29:52
trade-offs are again to an economist it

29:54
seems pretty easy you know you've got

29:56
these very easy to understand trade-offs

29:58
that are all about welfare maximization

30:01
but to the average retiree they have no

30:03
idea what it's all about well fair

30:06
maximization so it's our job to try to

30:08
to try to use

30:11
Concepts to help people put together a

30:14
plan that's going to make them happier

30:16
I could get elected running against the

30:19
phrase welfare maximization just just

30:22
bringing it up and say I am totally

30:23
against welfare maximization because

30:27
we're tired of giving this stuff away

30:29
you know what I'm saying and then you

30:30
step into like Stan that's not what I'm

30:33
talking about that's not welfare

30:35
maximization's all about I am now

30:37
running on the welfare maximization

30:45
but people always talk about fake news

30:47
and political fake news and all this

30:49
stuff Financial fake news is as bad

30:52
it's as bad because what and I want you

30:55
to think about it from a party

30:56
standpoint you have the party over here

30:58
of contractual guarantees and the curse

31:00
word of annuities then you have the

31:02
party over here of market growth and

31:04
potential and it's going to go up

31:06
and both sides Hammer each other

31:09
both sides say things about each other

31:11
that are unfounded to get the sale from

31:15
the other guy similar to a politician

31:17
saying what they have to say to get the

31:19
vote

31:20
that's the problem the problem is is the

31:23
master of the universe Financial

31:24
architect wealth architect financial

31:26
advisors and all annuities are bad I'm

31:28
just telling you right now son and

31:30
that's that's stupid as if I said all

31:33
mutual funds are bad that's stupid

31:36
um and I think I don't know how to cut

31:38
through that noise but other than you

31:41
know the annuity industry is notorious

31:43
for sponsoring the Rolling Stones tour

31:45
which is I don't understand that unless

31:47
I'm opening for them

31:49
um we need to do a better job of buying

31:52
air time I would think you know I see

31:54
some I've I've seen some stabs at that

31:57
I know you sit in the Big Board rooms

31:59
with the big marble stuff and they feed

32:00
you all these really nice food and stuff

32:02
has anybody talked about actually

32:03
marketing to the Boomers other than what

32:06
I'm doing

32:07
well Stan I have to say that's why I

32:10
recently I mentioned to you uh before

32:13
this interview that I actually used your

32:15
name in a very important group early on

32:17
in this week just tell me the truth

32:20
because I can take it they're all right

32:21
they didn't they they hadn't heard of

32:23
you standing what they don't know to

32:25
hate you you've got to be kidding me but

32:28
then again I don't Market to the

32:30
financial industry no you don't and so

32:32
but no this was this was more like

32:34
policy folks from big companies oh these

32:37
are not saying like you've got this is

32:39
how you need to present this information

32:40
it's it's simple it's straightforward I

32:43
used examples of the way you presented

32:44
information on the website because

32:46
that's what the consumer needs to know

32:47
is they need to know you know the

32:49
quality of the different insurance

32:50
companies they need to know the quotes

32:52
that they're getting you focus on very

32:55
simple products that are very easy to

32:57
explain that are providing the kind of

32:58
Lifetime income that people actually

33:00
want uh that you know it's it's uh it's

33:04
something that I think others could

33:06
learn from I'll say that that's that's a

33:09
the ultimate compliment by the way Stan

33:10
that that you I think you're marketing

33:12
skills are are exceptional I need to go

33:16
speak in front of this group now I would

33:17
do it with the drummer behind me you

33:20
know doing like a hip-hop drum beat as

33:21
I'm talking and maybe a guy on guitar

33:24
but the point is it would be neat for me

33:27
to talk to these I did it one time at

33:28
like the association of financial

33:30
planners

33:32
in Chicago and they brought me in they

33:34
paid me it was like a thousand people in

33:35
the room it was like a fist fight the

33:38
whole time of course I won everyone but

33:40
factually but you know it was it was it

33:42
was bizarre it was it was interesting

33:45
but I think that's what needs to happen

33:46
we need to go into the belly of the

33:49
Beast as they say and factually Hammer

33:52
them on what this is all about and have

33:54
the people step up to the mic and and

33:57
try to you know Stump Michael and Stan

33:59
and we just go uh sit back down chump

34:02
because we're getting ready to kill you

34:03
right here with facts you know I

34:06
actually I don't see the same level of

34:08
antagonism towards annuities are fun

34:12
just let me go let me have it okay I

34:14
hear you I hear you you know what

34:17
time and that is great to see because I

34:19
think especially in the investment world

34:21
people were not as open to having these

34:23
kind of conversations maybe four or five

34:25
years ago but there is a general

34:26
acknowledgment yeah these things

34:28
actually have a place let's think about

34:30
how we can position them to Consumers

34:32
well there's a demographic tidal wave

34:34
and I've got a feeling that a lot of

34:36
people are walking in whether it's from

34:38
a bad chicken dinner seminar or just

34:40
life saying I'm really tired of the

34:41
volatility do you have anything else for

34:43
me yeah

34:44
um I I think I think as like everything

34:47
that's good the consumer drags the

34:50
industry across the Finish Line oh I

34:52
want to talk about one more thing yes

34:54
we'll stop this this so first of all

34:56
well indexed annuities

34:59
um

35:00
it is but let's think about this for a

35:03
minute Sam oh no no I read Jason I read

35:05
I read his article no no the the option

35:09
but first of all the option budgets are

35:10
getting pretty generous in these things

35:13
which means that the Caps are pretty

35:15
high they're higher than they have been

35:16
in the past but let's also think about

35:18
you know those those guarantees the

35:21
insurance company provided that you

35:23
wouldn't lose money on your investment

35:25
as a bond substitute so the insurance

35:29
companies a reminder about how fixed

35:31
index annuities work wait stop I can't

35:34
make I'm gonna argue with you here you

35:37
cannot

35:38
put fixed indexed annuities in the same

35:40
categories as a bond you just can't

35:42
Michael come on man well I mean if you

35:44
look at the Historical long-term

35:45
performance they're they're pretty close

35:48
to a corporate intermediate term bond

35:51
over time but but you get this downside

35:56
protection of the principle now the

35:59
thing I want to talk about here Stan is

36:00
that with those products the insurance

36:02
company has actually lost the money so

36:06
you're right they invested in their

36:08
general account portfolio they assumed

36:10
it was going to provide a five percent

36:13
return so they have you know they took

36:15
95 of your money they are going to give

36:18
you a hundred dollars back next year

36:20
they invested the rest in a financial

36:22
option which lost did not pay off this

36:24
year sure sure of your bond portfolio

36:27
you're not going to lose any money on

36:30
that and the assumed rate of return was

36:33
five percent the insurance company is

36:35
now holding all of these intermediate

36:37
terms from corporate bonds they saw this

36:41
tremendous loss in their general account

36:43
portfolio that they cannot transfer to

36:45
you so this is one of those years where

36:48
a product like a fixed indexed annuity

36:50
that provides you with protection

36:53
against loss

36:55
um it's it's become very apparent that

36:57
you've transferred a lot of risk to the

36:59
insurance company of your bond portfolio

37:02
and that's that is and I agree with you

37:05
and you said something on a previous

37:06
podcast with us that I've attributed to

37:09
you since I mean and you probably said

37:10
it by mistake it was so good Michael

37:12
that's what I mean yeah is that good and

37:15
you said let the annuity companies buy

37:17
the bonds for you yeah with these

37:19
products and I thought that was genius

37:20
and it still is genius and you still get

37:22
the props and you still get the

37:23
royalties because this is a great

37:26
example of they're buying the bonds for

37:27
you and you're not suffering in the

37:29
volatility of the underlying principle

37:31
of those bonds yet you're got you have

37:34
the contractual guarantees in place so I

37:37
think this is something a lot of people

37:39
had forgot now that agreed take agreed

37:41
you know at the beginning of the year

37:42
some people thought well wait a minute

37:44
you know interest rates are so low I'm

37:46
going to try to get I'm going to buy

37:47
bonds that have a higher yield I'm going

37:49
to buy bonds that are longer term I'm

37:51
going to buy bonds that are uh riskier

37:53
you know lower quality sure and those

37:56
people thought well you know how how

37:58
risky could bonds be and by the time we

38:02
get to October the Vanguard long-term

38:07
corporate bond ETF is now down more than

38:10
30 percent

38:11
like who thought that that was even

38:13
possible listen I was there in the 90s I

38:15
was at Morgan Stanley when that happened

38:17
and I was I was a bond guy at those big

38:20
firms and I always tell people you know

38:23
bonds aren't always a safe haven

38:26
at all you know from a standpoint of

38:28
underlying value we're definitely seeing

38:30
that this year oh my gosh I and I think

38:32
we're in a bear market for bonds and I

38:34
hope I'm wrong and I'm who knows I mean

38:36
that's from my past but

38:38
um I don't know tell me about inflation

38:40
Michael you wake up in the morning after

38:42
the workout and then you start thinking

38:44
about inflation

38:45
what are you thinking about

38:48
well okay so inflation has been really

38:52
spotty so that means that you know when

38:55
I look at the inflation numbers what I

38:57
see is not that everything is going up

39:00
by a lot I'm saying that some things are

39:02
going up by a lot and obviously the war

39:05
in Ukraine has impacted energy costs

39:09
that's gone up a lot uh there are supply

39:11
chain issues that are you know partially

39:14
a carryover from the covet era that are

39:17
affecting prices a lot some things like

39:19
health care that seniors pay a lot of

39:21
money for I really have not gone up at

39:23
all over the last couple of years so if

39:25
you can be more flexible then like which

39:28
most retirees can be more flexible then

39:31
the impact of inflation is not as big of

39:34
a deal one of the things I worry about

39:36
with those retirees is that there is

39:39
such a thing as inflation sequence of

39:42
return risk and what that means is that

39:44
if inflation is really high early on in

39:46
retirement the prices of stuff you buy

39:50
throughout retirement is going to be

39:51
more expensive so it's worse if

39:54
inflation's High early than if inflation

39:56
is high late because if inflation's High

39:58
early then prices go up and they stay up

40:01
forever and if inflation's highly and

40:03
you pay a really high prices later on

40:05
it's not a big deal because you were

40:06
able to buy cheap stuff for the first 10

40:08
years of retirement and you're gonna die

40:10
well don't remind people because that

40:13
freaks them out

40:14
as a good friend of mine that does life

40:16
insurance he always says one out of one

40:18
of us is going to die I'm like thanks

40:19
mathematician appreciate that Tony

40:21
Robbins

40:23
um but it but it is true and inflation

40:26
I always tell people

40:28
if you have enough money like if you

40:30
call me and you have multiple millions

40:32
of dollars and you ask me let's solve

40:33
for inflation I will call you arrogant

40:36
um and I will start yelling at you at

40:38
the top of my lungs because come on man

40:41
you can you can afford the eggs and the

40:43
bread and the gas you know obviously

40:44
inflation hits people at the low end it

40:46
always does

40:48
um I always tell people there's no

40:50
perfect product to solve for inflation

40:51
you know you already have social

40:53
security and you can buy I bonds but

40:56
you know annuity companies have the big

40:58
buildings for a reason there's no

40:59
floating product out there that

41:00
addresses this even though every a lot

41:03
of people will say they have it they do

41:05
not in your Round Table of retirement

41:07
dork Geniuses with Advanced degrees

41:11
what are you guys talking about from the

41:13
standpoint of future products that you

41:16
see coming down the pike that should be

41:18
developed

41:19
well okay so one company has developed a

41:22
fixed index annuity with an income

41:25
payment that is actually allowed to

41:28
float up with inflation up to five

41:30
percent per year I understand don't

41:31
mention the name don't mention the name

41:33
please don't mention it don't mention it

41:35
do not mention it

41:37
um

41:38
lower the initial but they lowered every

41:41
one of these firms that have that and

41:43
there's there's actually five or six of

41:44
these products out there that they lower

41:47
the initial payment to make up for that

41:49
potential increase so you have to factor

41:51
in the break-even point

41:53
if you bought a static payment versus

41:56
the potential hypothetical theoretical

41:58
projected unicorn situation the

41:59
butterflies increases that's being sold

42:01
out there

42:02
it's not as pure as you're pushing

42:04
because

42:06
um Social Security is best inflation

42:07
annuity on the planet because there's no

42:09
actuaries involved there's only

42:10
politicians Stan and that is the bottom

42:13
line is like if you're worried about

42:14
inflation just wait to claim until

42:16
you're 70. that's that's the best way to

42:19
deal with it beyond that yeah the

42:21
options are limited well I always tell

42:23
people you want to solve for inflation

42:24
reverse engineer an immediate annuity

42:27
for the exact dollar amount that you

42:29
need to fill in the income gap period

42:31
that's it everything else is a sales

42:34
pitch you know and and so the other

42:37
thing too is is inflation's customizable

42:41
um so some people it affects differently

42:43
than others my two daughters have left

42:44
the building and I don't have to pay for

42:46
dance classes and drive them back and

42:48
forth so there's no not as much allowed

42:51
to mention that you can even use a key

42:52
lack as a way of dealing with later

42:53
retirement inflation you are allowed to

42:56
say that because you know I did write

42:58
the first book on the planet about culex

43:00
in 2014 as you know and so well

43:02
documented

43:03
um but you know it's not for everybody

43:05
it is a future income payment that can

43:07
hedge against inflation why because you

43:10
have you have income starting at a

43:12
future date no different than buying an

43:14
immediate annuity at a future date there

43:16
are some tax savings Etc do you see

43:18
culax do you see our politicians who we

43:21
both love trust and understand

43:23
do you see them you're supposed to laugh

43:26
at that Michael come on no it's beyond

43:29
laughter at this point

43:31
you see him raising it to where it's

43:33
real like a 200 000 or 250 where people

43:36
can actually whack it

43:38
pretty good

43:40
so I mean I the the reason that they

43:43
would do that is to develop some sort of

43:47
a workable

43:50
default in a retirement account so all

43:54
what what is happening right now is qlax

43:57
have been considered by some companies

43:59
as a default solution to protect against

44:02
longevity risk in your 401k

44:05
and if you have a high enough income

44:08
then you're going to go over that 145

44:11
000 limit are we going to pass first of

44:14
all you're asking are we going to pass

44:15
secure two I don't know it's like 50 50

44:17
shot

44:18
um and second of all

44:21
is that going to be an issue i i people

44:24
have tried to beat me down on culax

44:26
stand to be honest that nobody really

44:29
cares that much about them and you know

44:31
making significant policy changes Beyond

44:33
increasing it by the rate of inflation

44:34
is going to be tough unless it's coupled

44:37
with some sort of a qdia solution like a

44:41
Target date fund solution

44:44
are you a fan of Target day funds I am I

44:46
think are you oh yeah

44:49
the reason is and I'm just doing a paper

44:50
give me the reason you sell me on that

44:52
because you and Paul Merriman who's a

44:55
good good friend of the show

44:56
our Target date fund I mean you I mean

44:59
he you probably have a tattooed like

45:01
Target date phone on your arm I mean I

45:03
don't know right now it's just key lack

45:05
just

45:07
why Target dates sell me

45:10
um because I've seen what people do when

45:13
they try to invest on their own so oh

45:15
it's a loving handcuff is what you're

45:17
saying it is and and you I was just

45:20
doing a paper I was talking to a

45:22
reporter this morning about it where I

45:24
look at for those who have a Target date

45:26
fund how many of them phoned up their

45:30
uh Record Keeper with the Record Keeper

45:32
is the one that they need to phone up to

45:33
make a change in their Investments and

45:37
half the percentage of those who have a

45:40
Target date fund versus those who are

45:42
managing their Investments on their own

45:45
half of them called up their provider

45:47
when the markets fell in early 2020 and

45:51
one tenth of them their one-tenth is

45:53
likely to make a change and by the way

45:55
the ones who didn't make a change were

45:57
all pulling money out of stocks at

45:58
exactly the wrong time in March 2000 so

46:00
you're dummy so what you're saying is a

46:02
target they fund is a dummy proof

46:04
investment absolutely you know that is

46:06
its biggest strength is that people it's

46:09
a set it and forget it kind of

46:11
investment and people don't touch it and

46:13
they actually outperform the experts

46:15
over time in these things it's magic

46:17
it's really great now the problem is

46:19
that it's you know it's not customized

46:21
it's not tailored for every person uh

46:24
everybody gets the same thing it's uh

46:27
you know and the amount of money that

46:28
you save nobody ever like figures out

46:30
whether that's appropriate for you

46:32
somebody with a high income is saving

46:33
the same percentage as somebody with a

46:34
low income that's not right either so

46:36
probably the best kind of default is

46:39
something that's a little bit more

46:41
customized than a Target date fund but I

46:43
tell you targeted funds are infinitely

46:44
better than where most workers were back

46:47
in the early 2000s they were either

46:49
investing in money market accounts only

46:51
like 70 of the money was money market

46:53
accounts or they were trying to invest

46:55
in stocks and they are so bad at

46:59
investing in mutual funds they they buy

47:02
more mutual funds after they've gone up

47:04
in value you know they look at the

47:06
quarterly statements to see what

47:07
outperformed last quarter and then they

47:09
shift all their money into that and then

47:11
it underperforms so I'd rather people

47:13
just leave them alone the best thing

47:15
they can do is just leave their

47:16
Investments alone so if I'm a bad

47:17
financial journalist which I'm not my

47:20
quote would be Michael finka quote

47:22
Target date funds are for low IQ overly

47:25
emotional investors unquote yeah like me

47:28
so I have my retirement invested in a

47:33
Target date fund now that I'm I'm lying

47:36
actually half of it's in a Target date

47:37
fund half of it I invest on my own and I

47:41
was really clever when I had put

47:43
together my portfolio on my own I you

47:46
know did the right asset allocation I I

47:48
I did yeah I was very very thoughtful

47:52
Stan how many times have I readjusted my

47:54
allocation since I did that seven years

47:56
ago 50. I haven't touched it I haven't

47:59
looked at it which means it's all out of

48:01
whack right now you know the stock

48:03
market has gone up so now it's really

48:05
stock heavy which means I lost a bunch

48:07
of money when the market went down

48:08
recently I'm supposed to be a finance

48:11
Professor who is constantly readjusting

48:14
my portfolio but the thing is there's

48:15
always something that's more important

48:17
to do that day and I never get around so

48:18
you're a disinterested Economist is what

48:21
you're trying to tell me I am I'm not

48:22
I'm not very good at practicing what I

48:24
preach uh and it's you know I I just

48:26
don't want to have to think about that

48:27
stuff which is one of the advantages of

48:29
automating it

48:31
I hear you you know we've talked for a

48:33
long time this has been good this has

48:35
been good so you know I'm waiting for

48:38
you guys to fly me in on the Learjet to

48:40
uh to take this thing to the next level

48:42
you know the annuity thing to the next

48:44
level because I'm gonna do it on my own

48:45
by the way yeah I've got a couple I'll

48:47
let you borrow one anytime okay no

48:49
that's cool that's cool yeah I was

48:51
looking at that Professor oh yeah you

48:53
guys are rolling nothing in the cash you

48:55
know you guys are rolling so uh no it's

48:57
good I I appreciate you joining me kind

48:59
of out on a I read your article they're

49:01
like man I gotta call him

49:03
um because I was wondering where that

49:05
was coming from and um you said

49:07
Morningstar but that's good but we

49:09
always want you back on the show and we

49:10
really appreciate you

49:12
working on this for the Baby Boomers all

49:15
those people you are doing yeoman's work

49:17
we just have to shout it from the

49:19
rooftops

49:21
we really appreciate what you're doing

49:23
as well Stan we're trying you know we do

49:25
a few videos we do a few podcasts

49:28
um you know we try to get it out there

49:30
the best we can

49:32
um and I think we're making an impact

49:33
because people are starting to look at

49:35
it in a in a serious way and the way

49:37
they should from the contractual

49:39
guarantee standpoint of these of these

49:41
products I just hope that the industry

49:43
continues

49:44
to be pushed or push themselves to

49:46
create better and better products not

49:49
just you know re-polishing up the old

49:51
stuff but you know we'll kind of see I I

49:53
put that on you that's that's what you

49:55
need to do okay I'll work on that

49:58
put it on my to-do list Melissa I

49:59
appreciate it I appreciate every single

50:01
person on every major podcast platform

50:03
and on the fun with annuities YouTube

50:05
channel yes you can email me about those

50:07
four Flying V Gibson guitars in the back

50:10
that you see

50:11
and about the my band which by the way

50:13
Michael at the end of this annuity man

50:15
thing I will go on tour uh just to let

50:18
you know so with that being said we had

50:20
a lot of fun we will see you next time

50:22
on fun with annuities

50:29
[Music]