Kerry Pechter: Annuities For Dummies

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[Music]

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foreign

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with annuities where every single week I

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welcome a celebrity guest expert that

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can help you maximize chapter two of

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your life listen learn laugh and love

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every minute of the most unique

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Financial podcast on the planet let's

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get to it

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities I'm your

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host Stan the annuity man America's

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annuity agent licensed in all 50 states

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so glad that you joined us today because

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we have a special guest

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on the program friend of the annuity Man

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known him for a very very long time and

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I'll explain his background in a little

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bit but his name is Carrie pector he is

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the author of a great book that you need

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to read and there's a new version of it

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out on Amazon and we'll have all of

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those links on a page set up for Carrie

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that's going to be on my site

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permanently and that book is called

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annuities for dummies which I love that

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and um you know the first I I can't wait

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to hear about the second version because

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the first version was fantastic so

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without further Ado welcome to fun with

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annuities podcast Carrie Hector

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hello hello Stan yes we have been

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friends for for a long time now we are

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Kindred Spirits in the in the retirement

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uh uh financing World we're factual

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curmudgeons you know we're kind of

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talking about that before we went on air

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that

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um you know the industry has changed a

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lot and we'll get to that but I really

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want to focus on the book because again

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it's annuities for dummies if you if you

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forget that title then I guess um you

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know the second part of that title

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applies but it is a great great book

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um Carrie I know the first one was a was

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a home run and um I recommended it to as

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one of my recommended reading lists I

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mean you and Moshe and those people I

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know I know you're saying you

1:56
recommended the book beside motion yes

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Moshe molewsky I did but what um

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what motivated you to do version two of

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annuities for dummies

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well version one was in 2008 and that

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was a completely different world in

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terms of annuities no doubt the the

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products that are available the the uh

2:17
everything has changed the regulations

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have changed and and I needed to to

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update that and reflect that and and

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also significantly the uh the low

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interest rate period had ended which

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which uh that policy by the FED had sort

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of put an air stepped on the air hose of

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the annuity industry including

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especially the uh income annuity

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business and and so we were now in New

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Territory and I felt that it was time

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for a new book so it was a combination

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there are things that are still that I

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have in common with the old book and

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then there are uh also all the new

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things having to do with uh

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with the new products and new procedures

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I have to emphasize that in both cases

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the I I I tried to say this on the cover

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the title has to be annuities for

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dummies but if I had a dream title for

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the book or subtitled it would be

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retirement planning retirement income

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planning with annuities because the book

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doesn't treat annuities as something

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that just uh is unrelated to the

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annuities are in the context of personal

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retirement income planning sure

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absolutely and

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um Kerry's background is extensive but

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the way that I I met him and he's

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recently retired from being the editor

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founder publisher of retirement income

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Journal which the retirement income

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Journal was an industry standard for the

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annuity space

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um and we miss that uh that Weekly

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Newsletter for sure but I'm glad that

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you've kind of moved on to chapter two

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of your life but you still have your

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pulse on and you're still very very

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Adept of looking at Trends and looking

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at the the underlying issues good and

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bad with the annuity space

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um

4:10
some of the new products and new players

4:13
into the space Carrie did you include

4:16
that into in the book I know you covered

4:18
a lot of the newer products can you kind

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of jump into that a little bit

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well I evaluate this the the book is

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also the I I think it's the only book

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that dives into

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exactly how certain uh annuities work

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and these are the the the best selling

4:39
annuities the the index continuities and

4:42
the there's the explanations of them

4:46
have never satisfied me and I wanted

4:48
people to know on a granular level and I

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and uh exactly how the products

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uh function and how their money their

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investment is used to uh uh how their

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gains are procured in the marketplace

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it's a completely different from what

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you and I used to think of as annuities

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where you had agreed guarantees against

5:15
outliving your money these these

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products have they don't have a lot to

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do with and those are specific types I

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always tell people you know there's

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lifetime income products there's

5:24
principal protection products there's

5:27
Legacy products there's long-term care

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products the index annuity space or

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index space and the annuity side I've

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obviously written books and done you

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know hundreds of videos on that trying

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to dumb it down trying to be able to

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explain it to a nine-year-old as I

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always say I know if it's the

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nine-year-olds so you really went into

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how the how the sausage is made correct

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yes as far as I I could go the insurance

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companies don't really like to talk

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about it it was surprisingly and then

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later not so surprisingly difficult to

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find out how it's How it exactly it's

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let's stay there for a second because

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that's a very interesting comment

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um and this is one of the issues I think

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the annuity industry has to solve is

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transparency across the board

6:12
why why weren't they as transparent as

6:17
you needed them initially

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do you have a fee an idea about that I

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mean to speculate why they didn't want

6:23
to talk yeah absolutely

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um well the most uh

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on a superficial level on the primary

6:32
level I can't go to an insurance company

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uh investment manager or actuary and

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have them talk to me directly they're

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just not

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they're not allowed to talk to

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Outsiders I mean just that's just the

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nature of the corporate Beast

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at the same time you know annuities have

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insurance is has always been known as a

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black box that that no company wants to

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give away the secret sauce of how it how

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it uh manages its risks and your risks

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and and your money and

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and uh and exactly you know where the

7:11
pennies fall so and but and finally they

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simply didn't

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want simply the the truth of it I

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believed you know conflicted with the

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story that they were uh that these

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products were accompanied with during

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the sales

7:30
I also think that one of the issues the

7:32
industry has to deal with don't don't

7:34
know if they ever will is the fact that

7:36
the agents and advisors selling a lot of

7:38
these index link products could not

7:40
explain them in detail if you have held

7:42
a loaded gun to their head which means

7:44
that why are they selling them

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um and we all know why these these index

7:49
products typically are the highest

7:51
commission paying products as well which

7:53
dovetails into probably the the issue

7:56
and the problem I've already said if you

7:58
could just make all annuity types all

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the same commission it'd solve a lot of

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problems because it would be the agendas

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would not be as prevalent as they are

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where you'll find a lot of the agents

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just sell index annuities and and me and

8:14
you both know that from an

8:15
appropriateness and suitability

8:16
standpoint that's insane that's like one

8:18
that's like a doctor if prescribing one

8:21
medicine to everyone but it's it's it's

8:24
unfortunately a one-size-fits-all I

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don't blame the carriers as much as I do

8:29
the selling agents

8:31
um that are out there pushing the limits

8:33
of the truth on these products what's

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your take

8:37
well it's it's the selling agent we're

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talking about in the I am getting into

8:43
the distribution is very complicated it

8:47
is but but there's when you talk about

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there's two images you can have of the

8:52
selling agent the selling agent might be

8:54
you know your hometown professional

8:56
who's been there for 20 years or right

8:59
or longer who handles who's looking out

9:02
for you and and handles all your

9:05
insurance and sees all this in terms of

9:08
a uh uh you know holistic uh taking it

9:12
you know you have a large budget okay

9:15
but then you have then you have it

9:18
developed in the interest of this kind

9:19
of vertical

9:21
uh

9:22
integration of the designer of the

9:26
annuity the the quote manufacturer which

9:31
be which people know as the life

9:32
insurance company the the the uh

9:36
Insurance marketing organization

9:39
and the and then they're Ever Changing

9:43
uh

9:45
uh force of insurance agents

9:49
who are Independent Insurance Agents a

9:52
lot of whom might and I and and so

9:56
that's a so that's a person who's like a

9:58
for uh uh a person who simply is trying

10:01
to make the most money that they can

10:03
selling

10:04
Insurance products they're not fixed

10:07
with a audience so that's that's more

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uh I'm more so so the original kind of

10:16
uh the old-fashioned kind of Insurance

10:18
Agency agent and insurance agency the

10:21
independent agency is very different

10:23
from the IMO pyramid kind of thing

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because you've got the IMO taking a cut

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and then you have the designer of the

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annuity taking a cut and the insurance

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company has its overhead and for the

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listeners and viewers IMO is independent

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marketing organization which

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um distributes a lot of the annuities

10:40
and the Agents have to contract through

10:43
that independent marketing or

10:44
organization or sometimes called a field

10:46
marketing organization and there's just

10:49
a lot of a lot of cuts along the way I

10:50
don't want to get caught in the

10:51
distribution I appreciate you going down

10:53
the rabbit hole but I want to Let's

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pivot and talk about your m Amazon Mary

10:57
T nesters

10:59
okay so I wanted to when yes the empty

11:03
nesters

11:04
this is a this is a retired couple and

11:07
who is the star of my case histories in

11:10
the book and the case histories were

11:14
first published in retirement income

11:16
journal and they're they were and what I

11:19
did was I I found uh people uh

11:23
uh uh on the bridge of retirement with

11:27
certain and I interviewed them about

11:29
their financial characteristics and then

11:31
I put out their specifics to a variety

11:36
of uh

11:38
planners and uh insurance agents and

11:41
usually uh dually licensed uh what I

11:46
call

11:46
ambidextrous advisors who can who can

11:49
put a balance of insurance and

11:51
investment products out there and I

11:52
asked them it became kind of a challenge

11:55
to challenge them to give me a first

11:58
pass of a plan uh they can only you know

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they can only give so they can only give

12:03
a first stage plan because plans are you

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know they're put out there and then I'm

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talking about a retirement income plan

12:09
so then I would have like uh various

12:13
people and I publish what they had

12:17
uh recommended for the Mt nesters and

12:21
that would and what they and and

12:23
generally the people I sent the advisors

12:25
I sent the case histories to or the

12:27
client details to they came up with a

12:30
balanced view of uh leveraging uh the uh

12:36
uh you know com integrating Social

12:38
Security with pensions home equity uh

12:44
uh part-time income uh whatever the

12:47
folks were were doing they would they

12:50
would create a balanced plan and then I

12:52
would publish those Solutions in the

12:55
website and and several of those

12:57
Solutions half dozen of those Solutions

12:59
are in the book

13:01
got it now you know people that are

13:03
familiar with me have written owner's

13:04
manuals on all types of annuities the

13:05
annuity stanifesto a long time ago we're

13:07
trying to we're actually considering

13:09
redoing the Santa festo

13:12
um but all those books you can get for

13:14
free go into my website at the

13:16
annuityman.com but if a person is going

13:18
to buy an annuity book and I would

13:21
recommend annuities for dummies because

13:22
it's a primer it's a foundational book

13:24
but it's a lot more than that what would

13:26
be your argument for of all the annuity

13:29
books out there that in my opinion most

13:31
are agenda driven this one is not other

13:33
than to educate

13:36
is there other are there other reasons

13:38
for people to pick this book up from

13:40
Amazon you know obviously we're going to

13:41
have that link

13:42
um is it the primer that people need

13:46
it is there were uh the first book got

13:49
275 independent reviews on Amazon and a

13:54
4.3 out of I think out of five rating

13:58
and which which I think is pretty good

14:00
because you do get you get the haters

14:03
yeah absolutely so so and a lot of

14:08
people said that this was the first time

14:10
that and they had understood how

14:13
annuities work and how the annuity

14:15
Market works and there were the reason

14:18
for that is that I believe that I did

14:21
that did not happen by accident I was at

14:23
I worked at Vanguard in the retirement

14:25
Resource Center for nine years and my

14:27
job there a great a big part of my job

14:29
was explaining through articles on the

14:31
web and in pamphlets for our uh

14:35
investors this was when Vanguard uh

14:37
solid annuities yeah back in the day not

14:39
their own annuities but white label yeah

14:42
sure so uh

14:44
Stan I literally really spent nine years

14:47
trying to hone communication of

14:51
annuities and and one thing that I

14:54
learned was that annuities had people

14:57
were very confused about annuities

14:58
because the annuities the topic was

15:01
being organized in the wrong way there

15:03
were like if if if I were to structure

15:07
the book in the old-fashioned way it

15:08
would say you know this is about

15:10
annuities and we are going to first

15:12
we're going to look at fixed annuities

15:14
then we're going to look at variable

15:16
annuities then we're going to look at

15:18
immediate annuities and then we're going

15:20
to look at deferred annuities and I I

15:23
learned it I learned a long long time

15:25
ago that this was this was a path to

15:28
hopeless confusion yeah I was just going

15:30
to say I just almost I was looking for a

15:32
pen to stab myself because

15:35
that is that is the way a lot of the

15:37
uninformed

15:39
so-called experts try to go about it and

15:42
it doesn't work at all in fact that

15:44
sounds eerily similar to how Dave Ramsey

15:46
no offense today

15:48
um tries to explain annuities but you

15:51
know when people say the word annuities

15:52
I think the biggest problem I run into

15:54
and you probably do too annuities equals

15:56
restaurants equals shoes equals Vehicles

15:59
exactly you can't you know as John Olson

16:02
said and we both know John Olson very

16:05
valued member of the annuity

16:08
hierarchy it says any times you you use

16:11
the sentence annuities are and then dot

16:14
dot dot whatever follows after that is

16:16
typically false because you can't

16:18
broadly categorize broad brush it but

16:21
most people except for the people say I

16:24
hate all new annuities are all bad I

16:25
mean that's dumb but you know when

16:27
people say annuities are all expensive

16:29
or annuities are all you know for income

16:32
that's none of that's true and and I

16:34
think

16:35
what I like about your book is is with

16:38
each page you turn you realize there's a

16:42
lot more than you thought to the annuity

16:44
industry

16:45
and you need to understand the products

16:48
to make sure that it's suitable for what

16:51
you're trying to do so when you broke it

16:54
down

16:55
um

16:56
how did you break it down well then then

16:59
I explained at the beginning of the book

17:01
that

17:04
that annuities is a is is a bunch of

17:07
products that have as much that are as

17:10
unalike as they are alike and that each

17:13
one is a tool for a specific for

17:16
particular kinds of people in at

17:19
particular kinds of life in different

17:21
for different kinds of risk management

17:23
and so and then instantly take each type

17:28
of annuity and once you start listing

17:31
them you you end up with almost a dozen

17:34
yeah

17:35
you I take each one of them in turn and

17:40
and treat them separately now certain

17:43
things are grouped like deferred income

17:45
annuity and a q lack qualified longevity

17:48
one on the same they're in the same

17:50
chapter and but fixed rate annuities and

17:54
fixed indexed annuities are not in the

17:56
same chapter no they're not even though

17:58
they're both CD type products and put on

18:00
the planet for CD type returns are a

18:02
little bit better than that and that's

18:04
that's where that's where you know my

18:07
baseball caps start flying off the top

18:09
of my head is when they are really

18:11
pitched as market products I mean you

18:14
both know they're not Securities and

18:16
they should never be pissed as that and

18:17
we've gone through some things in the

18:18
industry where

18:20
you know there was a time a long time

18:22
ago that they were trying to people were

18:24
trying to get them as market products

18:26
and that didn't go through because

18:27
they're not they're they're not

18:29
Securities did you cover that on the

18:31
index side

18:32
oh I spent a lot of time on the index

18:34
annuity I've been studying them for uh

18:38
for many years they've become much more

18:41
sophisticated yes they have and uh I'm

18:46
not a fan of them

18:48
and I you know I try to be ABS I try to

18:51
be I I'm impartial in the in the book

18:54
and I and so I explained

18:57
this is

18:59
there's certain things I'm gonna try

19:01
let's deal with this quickly so I'd be

19:03
because I people can go into it in the

19:06
book but on the on the investment side

19:08
there's a thing called structured notes

19:11
and uh the structured notes is is uh

19:16
involves options and gives you a return

19:19
that's sort of within boundaries no it

19:22
can't be too low it can't be it can't be

19:25
negative or it can't be too negative

19:26
it's and it's not going to be high it's

19:29
not going to be too high it's supposed

19:31
to be and this is uh and but you don't

19:33
know exactly where in there you're going

19:35
to get and so the indexed annuity

19:38
uh you know you mentioned that it's

19:40
coming off the uh 10 years ago or 12

19:43
years ago there was a controversy over

19:44
over whether it could be was a neck it

19:47
was inequity type product or a bond type

19:50
product and and people have to remember

19:54
I'm gonna throw this out there it's uh

19:57
you can we decide whether you want to go

19:59
into it but this product is its returns

20:02
are correlated with the stock market

20:07
okay it's it's not allowed to be

20:10
marketed as a stock market replacement

20:14
um but they're using an S P 500 Index or

20:17
something like that

20:19
Etc

20:20
yes it's it when stocks go up you get

20:22
more gains from them and and you and it

20:26
it's if it's a if it's a stock

20:28
alternative it's a it's a week it's a

20:31
week it's a diluted stock alternative

20:34
correct because because the dividends

20:36
aren't included in those indices in a

20:38
lot of cases

20:40
well well yeah that and also because the

20:43
guarantee takes off the you know re the

20:47
and also the new uh volatility control

20:50
mechanisms that are built

20:52
so absolutely your your returns are

20:55
always capped that's why I call it a

20:57
diluted investment and and if you think

20:59
of them as a bond and and then then when

21:04
stocks go down if you have bonds you get

21:07
you get a buffer effect from the

21:09
performance of the bonds

21:11
I have a problem with the smart people

21:13
in the room calling it you know equating

21:16
and there's some smart people not going

21:17
to mention their names been on my

21:19
podcast that that cavalierly say index

21:23
annuities and bond are can be used as a

21:25
bond alternative incorrect I manage

21:27
bonds at Morgan Stanley at a very high

21:30
level give me a break anybody who says

21:34
that and there's some smart people out

21:36
there saying that they need to stop

21:38
because it's not a bond alternative if

21:42
you want to even get close to it being a

21:45
bond alternative that's a myga that's a

21:48
fixed rate annuity not an indexed

21:51
annuity the problem is the smart people

21:53
allegedly really smart are saying that

21:56
and people are buying them as Bond

21:58
Alternatives and they're not getting

22:00
they're not getting what they thought

22:01
they were going to get

22:03
no it's not a bond alternative because

22:05
related with the stock market and it

22:08
doesn't perform the diversifying effect

22:11
that a bond or bond fund does and and so

22:17
I when you're looking for one of the

22:19
things you want to look for in annuity

22:21
is uh diverse diversification of your

22:24
risk that's an important yeah you're

22:26
transferring risk that's all you're

22:28
doing that's that's what insurance is

22:31
all about

22:32
and uh the uh now I don't want to Define

22:36
most of the book is concerned with

22:38
income products you develop retirement

22:41
income the book is not we hate things no

22:45
no of course not but we have to when

22:47
every bad chicken dinner seminar

22:49
expensive steak dinner seminar is about

22:51
indexed annuities and most people that

22:56
go down the rabbit hole searching for

22:57
news they're going to be pissing index

22:59
annuity whether it's appropriate or

23:00
suitable or not and it's this leading

23:02
sales product out there we have to

23:05
right have to dig in and let people know

23:08
when you buy the book annuities for

23:10
dummies by Carrie pector

23:12
he's going to do a deep dive into the

23:15
indexed annuities just like I do a deep

23:16
dive into them on my videos and my my

23:19
indexed annuity owner's manual let's

23:21
pivot a little bit because this next

23:22
topic is one that

23:25
I just I just want to high-five you

23:27
every time because every time I think

23:29
about it because you've done such a good

23:30
job talking about it

23:32
and it's the the Bermuda Triangle

23:38
idea of private Equity getting involved

23:41
and annuity

23:43
companies I wrote an article a long time

23:45
ago about in market watch that had a

23:48
fictitious table that a bunch of private

23:50
Equity companies were sitting around

23:51
smoking a cigar and drinking single

23:53
mouth scotch and deciding to get into

23:56
the indexed annuity space that that

24:01
article blew up and the next day my site

24:03
was taken down randomly which is

24:06
impossible to do because of the security

24:08
I had at that point in time but somebody

24:10
took it down I made somebody mad and

24:12
then my friend Carrie pector wrote an

24:14
article a while back about the Bermuda

24:16
Triangle of private Equity getting into

24:18
the space of annuities which is a little

24:21
concerning can you dig in a little bit

24:23
about that because I love your work in

24:25
this area

24:26
yeah I've spent several years on this I

24:28
was a little slow in the beginning

24:30
around 2013 to pick up the significance

24:32
of the uh private Equity entry but then

24:36
it uh it it reached uh

24:39
it when lots and what when lots of when

24:42
all of the insurance companies the

24:44
publicly traded insurance companies

24:46
started to go towards this trend uh I

24:48
started to pay close attention to it and

24:51
what happened was during the uh after

24:53
the financial crisis when interest rates

24:55
went down the insurance companies were

24:58
weak and they needed capital and they

25:01
needed either to grow their Investments

25:04
faster or they needed outside infusions

25:06
of capital because uh they they had

25:09
margin calls in a sense in the insurance

25:11
world and to do because of the stock

25:14
market crash and the low interest rates

25:16
was kind of a double whammy on them and

25:19
so the private Equity companies came in

25:21
as I understand it first they came in as

25:24
like investment advisors then they came

25:26
in as partners and then they came in as

25:29
owners and uh once they were owners I

25:33
started to pay very close attention to

25:35
them and there was a lot of CopyCat and

25:37
they bought more insurance companies and

25:40
it started to be it started out as

25:42
insurance life insurance companies

25:43
hiring private Equity occurrence for

25:45
advice about their Investments to

25:47
private Equity companies owning

25:49
insurance companies and uh using

25:53
annuities as what they called permanent

25:58
capital

25:59
and so like

26:01
and that's not how it was designed to be

26:04
well I took that's I mean that let's

26:07
just stop let's let's stop and put the

26:08
flag and down for just a second

26:12
um there's there's 11 000 Baby Boomers

26:14
hitting in age 65 every single day in

26:16
the marketing world that's called a

26:17
demographic Title Wave and what these

26:19
private Equity companies are now back

26:21
then they started looking and now

26:23
they're all in they want to get in front

26:25
of that money they want to get in front

26:27
of that transfer of risk money that's

26:29
going to the annuity companies and what

26:31
Kerry has done and what yeah this is I

26:33
tell you what you need to buy the book

26:35
for a lot of reasons this is one of them

26:37
but he you know talking about the

26:39
Bermuda Triangle

26:42
I really you know the National

26:43
Association of insurance Commissioners

26:45
I'm a big fan of I think they they try

26:47
to do a really good job but this is

26:49
bigger than them

26:50
it is bigger than them it's bigger than

26:52
them because it's brawls across States

26:54
and across country borders correct and

26:57
and that's actually what I think it's

27:00
uh designed to do but I don't think of

27:03
this as a plot I think this is just

27:05
business there's been just tectonic

27:07
Moves In global finance and interest

27:10
rates but is it business turning into a

27:12
plot

27:13
well yeah well if you it's

27:17
you there's a couple layers here first

27:19
the companies that are doing this are

27:21
their first their first loyalty is to

27:24
their shareholders correct and it's not

27:26
to their policyholders that's a flag for

27:29
me because it means you know

27:33
if if I'm not if I'm buying insurance

27:35
and the company is not on my side in

27:39
every way and has no conflicts there's

27:41
always conflicts but but if I'm second

27:44
Fiddler to the to the shareholder or

27:47
third fiddle first you have the

27:49
management shareholder and you have the

27:52
comment shareholder then you have the

27:54
policy holder I don't want to be third

27:56
in line if I'm buying a product not for

27:59
retirement no not for retirement that's

28:02
in that that's

28:03
I try not to use the word insane too

28:06
much because explain the explain why the

28:09
word why the country Bermuda is in is in

28:12
front of triangle we're not talking

28:13
about missing planes oh okay well the

28:16
the the uh private Equity companies

28:18
which is you know filled with very very

28:21
smart people sure figured out that once

28:24
they took over the uh once they owned

28:27
the insurance company the the they broke

28:30
they rationalized the industry and they

28:32
broke it down think of the old days as a

28:35
big tower in in New York City with

28:38
investment managers in there and and and

28:41
product developers and actuaries and all

28:44
these people Under One Roof and they're

28:46
in there and they all work for the big

28:48
Mutual company okay well now the private

28:51
Equity companies they bought the

28:52
companies they could see that they that

28:54
they could rationalize this industry by

28:57
separating the functions the they there

29:00
would be a annuity sales operation which

29:05
would bring in ideally 10-year fixed

29:10
indexed annuities and that was called

29:13
they called that in in their

29:15
conversations with shareholders where

29:18
the real story comes out when they talk

29:20
to to Wall Street analysts through on

29:23
shared holder meetings four times a year

29:26
or twice a year or whenever they do it

29:28
the uh they called that permanent

29:31
capital

29:32
I said well it's not it's that no no no

29:36
it is permanent capital I understand but

29:38
not in their definition

29:40
well they they said it's 10-year Capital

29:42
that's constantly refreshed in 10-year

29:46
every every they get to play with the

29:50
fixed indexed money for seven to ten

29:53
years that is so much easier for them

29:57
that's

30:00
that stable capital

30:03
which they call permanent capital and

30:06
that's why they're selling indexed

30:08
annuities because of the long terms

30:11
so the so the other like the other the

30:15
longer the term the more

30:18
see I cover in my other in my other life

30:21
the retirement income Journal I covered

30:23
the business of insurance sure so we're

30:26
off in that territory now rather than

30:28
the annuities for dummies which is

30:30
consumers finding out how to finance

30:33
their retirement but it correlates

30:35
oh yeah oh yeah they they they they

30:37
they're it's the same it's the same it's

30:40
two ends of the same story absolutely it

30:43
Rhymes as they say um I will tell you a

30:45
great story Carrie the other day I get a

30:46
call

30:47
Anonymous call will not mention the

30:49
person's name from the Department of

30:51
Labor and they're they're looking into

30:53
this and my first comment to this nice

30:55
gentleman that's working on it with a

30:57
group at the Department of Labor working

30:59
on this this kind of Bermuda Triangle

31:01
idea is hey you need to call Kerry

31:04
pector and they go oh yeah we know Kerry

31:06
it's like okay that's good I feel better

31:08
now because

31:10
um but that but I will tell you the

31:11
consumer and that's who's listening to

31:13
this primarily or watching this

31:16
um

31:18
it's on the radar screen I mean it's on

31:20
the radar screen at some higher levels

31:23
in DC I know for people that hate DC

31:25
that doesn't mean anything but for me

31:27
at least they're trying at least they're

31:28
looking at least they're trying to put

31:30
some guard rails in place to keep these

31:32
private Equity groups in their Lane

31:35
um and notice Carrie and I don't mention

31:37
company names or specific names we're

31:40
very very careful about that but we know

31:42
who the players are and and I think that

31:44
the DOL does as well

31:46
so it wouldn't surprise me coming down

31:48
the pike that there will be some

31:50
some proposed legislation on the hill

31:52
which will be interesting because the

31:54
insurance Lobby is the biggest baddest

31:56
strongest Lobby on the hill makes the

31:58
NRA look like a bunch of hikers and I

32:01
always say the insurance Lobby doesn't

32:03
need guns they have money so we'll see

32:06
how far it goes but I think there's

32:08
going to be some attempts to to rein

32:10
this in and protect the consumer do you

32:12
agree with that well well yes and I I do

32:15
agree with that there's uh that's that's

32:18
going to be difficult because the states

32:20
regulate the insurance industry and

32:23
annuities and so there's a lot of

32:25
pushback including from the senators of

32:28
the states where insurance is very

32:29
important like Iowa

32:31
so you're going to get so but I didn't

32:34
answer your question about why we're why

32:35
Bermuda is involved yeah I'm sorry about

32:38
that I digressed so so I aggression is

32:42
good digression yeah I mean just so I

32:45
mean I'm so fascinated by the whole

32:46
obviously this is what I do but yeah

32:48
you're so I was saying how uh the

32:51
private Equity company said we can do

32:52
this a smarter way we'll we'll out like

32:54
sort of break up this this uh monolith

32:58
of an insurance company and we'll Farm

33:00
out the uh sales to what people to the

33:04
insurance agents and the imos

33:07
and we'll uh we'll bring all the

33:11
investment expertise into our house on

33:14
Wall Street

33:15
and we'll

33:17
take the risk

33:22
that and we'll send it to Bermuda

33:26
and send the money that no no no there's

33:30
no money going what are they sending to

33:32
Bermuda

33:33
it's

33:35
well when I wrote a story about it a

33:37
couple weeks ago I had a picture on the

33:39
cover of men carrying boxes labeled

33:42
pension risk nice

33:45
and it's a because it's very hard

33:48
project so so imagine it like this it's

33:51
very it's not that complicated let's say

33:54
so you set up a you set up a company in

33:57
Bermuda where the accounting rules are

34:00
different and they're more favorable

34:01
though though exactly in what way at the

34:06
rate that money's the risk is piling in

34:09
so that you set up a company there that

34:11
contracts with you that a company that

34:15
you own

34:17
that says that if

34:21
it and it runs a kind of a Insurance in

34:24
this sense that if you if you have a

34:26
money losing year on your annuities

34:30
we will

34:32
pitch we will cover the loss if you have

34:36
a excess

34:38
of income if you have a good year and

34:41
you don't lose anything in fact you're

34:42
you're making more money we will share

34:45
in the game

34:46
and it's and and so all the money

34:50
stays in the United States it doesn't go

34:54
anywhere and the insurance company and

34:56
the and and the the asset manager is

35:00
buying this reinsurance from itself in

35:03
Bermuda

35:05
for people who are listening it took me

35:08
years

35:09
to understand this so but just keep in

35:12
mind that that they have an insurance

35:14
company in the U.S state they have an

35:18
asset manager on Wall Street and they

35:21
have a risk management program in

35:23
Bermuda

35:25
all and then there's nobody

35:29
who has a grip on all of this and where

35:33
it's going and what it means and

35:36
the the the problem has been most has

35:40
gotten the most interest though on the

35:42
not on the individual annuity side but

35:45
on the pension risk transfer and the

35:47
other companies are buying pensions and

35:50
and and I I

35:53
pensions are are a a hot button topic

35:58
and the safety of Pensions but but my

36:01
interest is more in the individual space

36:03
and I'm alarmed because uh I think I I

36:08
think that these products the 10-year

36:11
index products are being sold

36:14
specifically because they are low risk

36:18
products and they they don't it's money

36:22
that doesn't you can't have a run on

36:25
this money you can't have people pulling

36:26
their money yeah there's no window

36:27
that's all I say there's a difference

36:29
between Bank runs and there's no

36:31
insurance window to run and get your

36:33
money because there's surrender charges

36:34
and things built in yeah so they're not

36:36
selling these products because they

36:38
think these products are better for you

36:40
and they're selling them because they

36:42
are better fuel for the asset management

36:45
Bermuda Triangle machine and produce

36:48
higher profits and you can you'll hear

36:51
all this on the the webcasts with to the

36:55
shareholders you're just not going to

36:57
hear it from an insurance agent well the

36:59
insurance agents probably don't know I

37:01
would say one percent of all insurance

37:03
agents that sell or have the ability to

37:06
sell indexed annuities

37:08
even know what we're talking about one

37:11
percent

37:12
um which is

37:14
not good hey got a question hit me so

37:17
someone bought annuities for dummy first

37:18
edition

37:20
and they're going to buy annuities for

37:21
dummy second edition

37:23
what's going to be the what's going to

37:25
be the head slap moment as they're

37:27
reading it expecting to be you know

37:29
eerily similar and it is because you

37:31
know anyways annuity types are annuity

37:33
types

37:34
but what is the you know what's the

37:38
pound of the table difference between

37:40
version one and version two

37:44
uh there's the uh edition of the new

37:47
products uh the the the

37:51
registered index linked annuities rylo's

37:55
for everyone out there yes uh these are

37:57
securities products

37:59
that sell through broker dealers whereas

38:03
indexed annuities are mixed income

38:06
products that sell through agents that's

38:09
a distinction so so so I introduce I

38:12
talk about rile as I talk about few

38:14
lacks I talk about the decline of the

38:19
variable annuity with the grad with a

38:21
guaranteed living benefit correct uh uh

38:25
I add the case histories and also I go

38:28
into because I know much much more than

38:31
now than I did 15 years ago about

38:33
distribution I break down

38:36
uh the process of

38:40
buying an annuity I go into each of the

38:43
documents that you will see

38:47
on the way towards purchasing an annuity

38:49
they go through understanding all the

38:52
places that you might be introduced to

38:55
in annuity and what you will hear and

38:57
not hear from in that venue

39:01
because it's not as if so I break down

39:04
the the structure of the distributions

39:06
because I feel that people don't know

39:09
that if you go you're if you go to an

39:12
insurance agent you're not going to hear

39:13
about ryla's if you go to a broker

39:15
dealer you're not going to hear about

39:17
indexed annuities I mean there's you

39:19
know there's cross yeah there can be

39:21
Crossroads but you're correct everyone

39:23
kind of has their own their own little

39:25
agenda about that um so what else with

39:29
the with the new book because that's a

39:30
lot trust me the just you going into the

39:33
distribution

39:34
aspects of annuity sales and and how

39:37
that works it should be included for

39:40
annuities for dummies annuities for

39:41
dummies on Surface people will say well

39:43
he's just going to talk about products

39:44
what I like about the second version is

39:47
you go into the industry

39:50
and and because it's important for the

39:52
consumer to know we're talking about

39:54
your retirement so you can't just

39:56
cavalierly and blindly believe the sales

39:58
pitch after you had a medium rare filet

40:01
mignon at a steakhouse you'd never

40:02
attend yeah yeah

40:05
yeah so I know I know much more about

40:08
all of this and there A lot has happened

40:11
since uh since 2008 obviously so it's a

40:16
completely different world uh there's I

40:18
would say there's even more emphasis and

40:20
you'll you'll probably be glad to hear

40:22
that on income annuities

40:24
uh because income annuities are uh

40:30
uh

40:31
are

40:33
longevity risk mitigation and sequence

40:36
risk mitigation sure and these are the

40:38
risks that you have to be worried about

40:40
in retirement the other products that

40:43
that are they're they're what the

40:45
insurance the annuity in the company

40:46
industry now calls them protected growth

40:50
products

40:51
that's they use that instead annuities

40:54
and in any way and it's and it's and

40:56
it's accurate

40:58
because the in the Structured Products

41:00
the indexed annuities are

41:03
protected growth and uh

41:08
I'm thinking if you want protected

41:10
growth that's more and this is on

41:13
betraying my Vanguard background but

41:15
that's more of a like a stock Bond

41:18
Alternatives diversification

41:22
my comment is protective growth for who

41:25
the the carrier or the you know or the I

41:28
understand but you know I think what

41:30
you've done here is um is a very

41:33
is a service to the listeners and the

41:35
viewers is to kind of peel back the

41:37
ending a little bit okay this is why you

41:39
need to get the book because he goes

41:41
into into detail by the way there was a

41:43
15-year gap between the first one the

41:45
second one

41:47
and you could have written it sooner

41:49
obviously because there's a lot

41:50
happening do you envision this ongoing

41:53
because the annuity industry will

41:54
continue to morph change and pivot do

41:57
you see another one coming down the pike

41:58
and oh oh they're very possibly uh uh in

42:04
part because and this is another new

42:06
section in the book it's the section on

42:09
annuities in 401ks

42:11
that that's just a whole nother argument

42:14
yes that's a whole other story and

42:17
depending on how large that phenomenon

42:20
becomes it's and and it's still

42:24
it's that's a whole other discussion but

42:26
it's a whole other book too because

42:28
people are going to uh I have a great

42:31
many thoughts on on how people need to

42:34
prepare themselves for the possibility

42:36
that they're going to be offered

42:37
something in

42:39
uh their 401K plans and I and I I really

42:43
need they I really believe they're going

42:45
to need way more information than

42:48
they're going to get at the workplace

42:50
yeah you're going to need a lot more

42:51
information than a than a lunch seminar

42:54
while you're eating a bad turkey

42:55
sandwich and the person is talking about

42:57
the annuity Choice inside of your 401k

42:59
I'm not a

43:01
I understand the intentions are good

43:03
with that but boy that is a messy messy

43:06
area because what happens is you know

43:09
the the financial services industry does

43:11
a reward around they throw fiduciary

43:13
around

43:15
um and fiduciary for what that really

43:16
means is is the selling agent or advisor

43:19
putting the client's best interest ahead

43:20
of theirs that should be a given we

43:22
don't need a plaque for that if you're

43:24
in the business that should be what you

43:25
do but what I'm trying to say about the

43:27
and correlate that into the 401K

43:30
unless you're shopping all carriers for

43:32
the highest contractual guarantee

43:34
then you can throw the fiduciary word

43:37
out the window which then you need to

43:38
ask the board of directors are you

43:40
liable for that if someone comes back

43:42
and say wait a minute these big three

43:45
companies uh where are the only were the

43:48
only choices we had but yet the

43:50
guarantees they offered were

43:51
significantly lower there's some real

43:53
time bombs in this thing I mean that and

43:55
and I'm not sure uh like you said there

43:58
needs to be a lot more education on it

44:00
than just hey hip hip hooray there's

44:02
annuities in 401ks no no it's a lot

44:05
bigger than that especially if you're

44:07
trying to protect the consumer right

44:11
right

44:12
so uh

44:14
I want to keep this at a I I don't want

44:17
to make it sound like this is a a series

44:19
of chapters with with details I want to

44:22
I mean I want to make sure that people

44:24
understand that the the the the center

44:27
of gravity of this book is using income

44:30
generating annuities to uh maximize and

44:36
and safety eyes your income in

44:40
retirement and and that's that's the

44:43
everything points back like every

44:46
chapter if my evaluations of different

44:49
methods and different distribution

44:50
methods and different annuities All

44:53
Points it's all has a magnetic north

44:57
that points to

44:59
do they help or detract from your job of

45:04
trying to make your retirement

45:06
income safer and longer lasting and and

45:10
that's the real and and I know that uh

45:12
and so I devote a lot of time in the

45:15
books to income annuities and clearing

45:17
up you know mistakes the myths yeah it's

45:22
it's perfect because we call it the

45:24
income floor

45:25
that combines with the best inflation

45:27
annuity on the planet Social Security

45:29
and if you're one of the less than 10

45:30
percent of the people that have a

45:32
pension that's your employer you're

45:34
stacking up income

45:36
and annuities are like only product

45:38
category that pays for as long as you

45:41
are breathing so I'm glad you focused

45:43
there because people unfortunately

45:45
equate or try try to equate lifetime

45:47
income transfer risk annuity payments to

45:51
Investments and you can't yeah once a

45:54
contract one's an investment right and

45:57
now I do spend a lot quite a bit of time

46:00
trying to explain the guaranteed

46:01
lifetime withdrawal benefit because when

46:04
when that's the competitor to Sure uh

46:09
the income annuity and

46:11
I'm very hesitant about it because uh

46:15
it's

46:17
I'm afraid that a lot of people are

46:19
going to spend they're going to pay

46:21
premiums for years and years on for that

46:25
protection and never use it oh no doubt

46:28
people are sold

46:30
what's called you and I both know and

46:32
for the listener viewer the roll-up rate

46:34
and it's a typically a high percentage

46:35
that your income rolls but that's a

46:37
monopoly money but people think they

46:39
have Jimmy Carter interest they don't

46:41
and so they just watch it watch it watch

46:43
it pay for it pay for it pay for it

46:45
always say annuities have the big

46:46
buildings for a reason

46:48
but you are correct and I'm glad you dug

46:50
in on what we call income Riders

46:51
guaranteed withdrawal benefits and

46:54
there's numerous types Etc as you know

46:56
my book on income writers is pretty

46:58
thick because there's a lot

47:00
especially if you look at both variable

47:02
and indexed offerings for in for income

47:05
benefits income Riders withdrawal

47:06
benefits lifetime income withdrawal

47:09
benefits however they won't phrase them

47:10
so I'm glad you stuck your foot in the

47:13
ground and did that one as well as

47:15
dovetailing

47:17
um with your immediate annuity deferred

47:19
income annuity culax I I had a question

47:22
I wrote down for you that's that

47:26
is something I wanted your opinion on

47:29
and by the way we're talking to Carrie

47:31
pector he has the second version out of

47:33
annuities for dummies will have that

47:35
link on our site and a permanent page

47:38
without carry I encourage you to go get

47:40
it again new annuities for dummies on

47:42
Amazon

47:44
um if if you're if you own an annuity

47:46
thinking about an annuity know someone

47:49
that or you're you're helping someone

47:51
that's managing annuities you need to

47:52
you need to have this book no doubt but

47:54
the question I have for you Carrie is

47:57
do you see new product types in the

48:01
future

48:02
or do you think the the annuity

48:04
companies are just going to Lock and

48:06
Load right here and feed into the

48:08
demographic Title Wave of people looking

48:10
for these these what I call Legacy

48:12
products because the last new product

48:14
was a culac arguably in 2014 rilas are

48:18
offshoots of index annuities that that

48:20
were introduced in 1995. do you see

48:22
anything new are you hearing any

48:24
Whispers of new products

48:27
uh or from the company's point of view

48:30
the 405 annuity and the pension risk

48:32
transfer are they're big new

48:35
yeah but they're but they're just

48:37
rehashing I'm actually being on the

48:39
retail on the retail that's what I'm

48:41
hoping yeah I'm hoping there's new

48:43
things maybe not I mean but but I'm it's

48:46
just hard for me to believe with the

48:48
demographic tidal wave of money

48:50
that companies aren't trying to do that

48:53
no Moshe moleski was mentioning some

48:55
some ideas but their ideas at this point

48:57
they're not well he probably talks about

49:00
tongue teens and he also talked about

49:02
specific products also based on health

49:06
that were a little bit more

49:08
um targeted but it's just hard for me to

49:11
believe that with all this money

49:13
coming you know looking for guarantees

49:16
that they're not aren't going to be new

49:17
new products maybe they're not I don't

49:19
know well the the a product that's

49:21
that's uh the two products that that are

49:25
that I really like that have have not

49:27
been pushed

49:29
ever

49:30
and we used to sell these at Vanguard

49:33
and I thought why is everybody not

49:34
buying this I love this and it was the

49:38
variable income annuity yeah and and uh

49:42
no one no one really markets that no and

49:46
and uh and my friend Jeff Dellinger

49:49
wrote the uh a big fat book on the

49:53
variable income annuity

49:55
and and not that every not that people

49:58
should read that because it's a you know

50:00
that's a lot yeah I've read that's

50:03
that's way too much yeah so but anyway

50:06
that's a terrific product and uh

50:10
and it gives people Equity episode

50:12
exposure uh and then also the other one

50:16
was the fixed rate annuity with the

50:19
long-term care yeah right which was a mo

50:23
which was a moment in time yeah and it

50:25
was a moment that disappeared when

50:27
interest rates didn't down and I'm

50:29
thinking maybe if uh because because

50:33
that's a what you're doing there is

50:35
you're just taking part of the revenue

50:37
that you would have gotten on your fixed

50:39
rate annuity and it's going towards uh

50:43
long-term care dividends and so and also

50:47
by promising to post the value of the

50:50
annuity as the first dollar

50:53
of your long-term care like like you

50:56
will meet a deductible

50:58
for the long-term care insurance that's

51:01
equal to the value of the annuity when

51:03
you devoted so if you don't get sick you

51:07
keep the annuity money it stays in your

51:09
family and if you do get sick then it's

51:12
uh it's a it's a

51:15
it has gone to the purpose of getting

51:18
you much cheaper long-term care and and

51:21
those two products

51:24
um

51:25
and why they

51:27
I don't think they're of interest to

51:30
the carriers the carriers or and I don't

51:34
think they're of interest to the the the

51:36
uh

51:38
the private Equity companies who own the

51:40
publicly traded definitely not of

51:42
interest to them no not at all they do

51:45
not want mortality risk no and and so

51:49
you have supply side and you have demand

51:52
side issues here and on the supply side

51:55
you have a lack of appetite for

51:57
these products because they don't pay

52:00
very high commissions they're not very

52:01
high profit they don't generate a lot of

52:03
Annual fees which which is what the

52:07
private publicly held companies uh are

52:09
hungry for they they this is these are

52:12
mutual company probably products and and

52:15
so we have a you know you have maybe

52:17
five or six yeah limit limited and and

52:21
their appetite for doing something new

52:24
when they're making tons of money

52:26
well I don't know what exactly happening

52:28
at the mutual companies they're always

52:30
you know they they see the other

52:32
companies and how they're making money

52:34
and they they kind of you know they mean

52:36
the Mass Mutual is now you know in the

52:40
Bermuda Triangle business

52:42
uh Fidelity is getting into the Bermuda

52:44
Triangle business

52:46
um

52:47
so that's getting more mainstreamed you

52:51
might see some of the other mutuals

52:54
besides Mass Mutual sure going in I mean

52:56
they're going to go these are money

52:58
making Enterprises

53:00
all right they can't they can't help

53:02
themselves in a lot of cases yeah but

53:04
let's talk about let's keep this on the

53:06
positive and talk about the income

53:07
annuity because I I want I have some

53:10
questions for you because I know they've

53:11
you've yeah we've got about we've got

53:13
about five more minutes then we've got

53:14
to wrap this thing let's talk about that

53:15
now what are the misconceptions I think

53:18
when people look at income annuities

53:20
there they look at what what the

53:22
internal rate of return is on average

53:25
and uh or that's what an advisor will

53:28
say well you know the internal rate of

53:30
return is only four percent four percent

53:33
on this I'm I can get you eight percent

53:35
on the shirt sure that's garbage and

53:37
then and they know it it's always sell

53:39
tofu there's no Roi until you die you're

53:42
transferring risk yeah and if you don't

53:45
look at it as a transfer of risk because

53:47
people don't look at their their Social

53:49
Security payments and go what's my Roi

53:51
in that Social Security payment what's

53:53
my Roi on that pension from the company

53:54
but somehow

53:56
when it comes to commercial annuities

53:58
for Lifetime income they're they're

54:00
digging in and I'm like you are missing

54:02
the point Chester I mean yeah I'm very

54:04
very upfront about that you can't look

54:06
at see Insurance you buy insurance so

54:10
that you take care of a you get a risk

54:13
off your plate so that you can take risk

54:16
in other ways like if you you may say

54:20
I'm not going I'm not traveling abroad

54:22
because I might get sick and need a lot

54:25
of it you know you buy the travel

54:26
insurance you're trying you're not

54:28
trying to win on the travel at the

54:30
jerseys you know trying to make a profit

54:32
on it you have fire insurance car

54:34
insurance homeowner insurance and

54:36
lifetime income Insurance Falls right in

54:39
there it's just not marketed correctly

54:41
right you're transferring risk to

54:44
software lifetime income as long as you

54:46
are breathing yes so that you can feel

54:49
free to do other stuff correct and also

54:53
be a better investor with your

54:55
non-annuity assets it's the income if

54:58
the income floor is in place

55:00
once it's in place then go then go

55:03
invest and be Gordon gecko because the

55:05
bills are going to be paid and you get

55:06
to do your thing that's always tell

55:08
people you know use this little amount

55:10
of money is humanly possible

55:12
to solve for the goal with annuities and

55:14
please don't let anyone talk about

55:16
inflation with you because annuity

55:18
companies don't give that away you're

55:19
already on the best one which is social

55:20
security so

55:23
solve for the goal and and because

55:25
inflation is customizable and different

55:28
for every single person if you need

55:29
additional money then solve for that

55:31
additional money need

55:33
it's real real simple annuity Solutions

55:36
are very very simple unfortunately the

55:39
industry and the agents make it

55:40
difficult okay when you go to the

55:42
annuity man site and run quotes

55:45
uh you will see that you get about the

55:48
same quote for a life only

55:53
uh life with 10-year period certain and

55:57
life with cash refund they'll be very

55:59
close

56:00
and you'll get a little more you know

56:03
maybe fifty dollars per 100 000 more

56:05
from the

56:07
uh

56:11
uh life in it life only so do you know

56:14
why

56:15
that's that's uh those those quotes are

56:18
so close because it makes it a

56:20
no-brainer to take the cash refund or

56:22
the period certain go ahead and explain

56:24
it to the consumers go ahead

56:26
oh I don't I don't know exactly why well

56:29
here's and I do know uh um when annuity

56:32
companies offer quotes and when you go

56:35
to our site and run quotes for like

56:36
immediate annuities we list them all we

56:38
list life only life with cash refund

56:40
life with 10 life with 20 period certain

56:42
so you can see how they price it annuity

56:45
companies

56:46
um

56:46
they have a capacity issue and they're

56:48
trying to fill tranches on specific

56:50
structures whether it's life only or

56:52
life with cash refund there are times

56:54
that companies want the life with cash

56:56
refund structure

56:58
so that they they will price it either

57:01
in line with the life only or or it'd be

57:05
right the same the other thing too is

57:07
age if you're in your 50s whatever A lot

57:09
of the times the cash refund is the same

57:11
amount

57:12
um as the life only but what people need

57:14
to understand is

57:16
annuity quotes change like a gallon of

57:18
milk every seven to ten days the reason

57:20
that it's important for us to quote all

57:22
carriers is so that when carriers need

57:25
to fill those tranches for those

57:26
specific quote Strat uh quote structures

57:29
then we have those people available

57:32
because so you know one week a life with

57:34
cash refund with New York Life or

57:37
whoever XYZ company will be higher and

57:40
then two weeks from now it won't be on

57:41
the board why because they filled that

57:43
tranche and they don't have to have the

57:46
guarantees as high too to attract the

57:49
consumer that's the reason I always tell

57:52
people do not allow agents to just show

57:56
um one quote have them quote all

57:58
carriers for the highest contractual

57:59
guarantee because it's like buying a

58:01
plane ticket obviously the Apples to

58:03
Apples comparison is the claims

58:04
payability and the ratings of the

58:06
company but other than that it's really

58:08
a commodity so Carrie we gotta close

58:11
this thing up and I really appreciate

58:13
you you being on the podcast once again

58:16
Carrie pector new book out annuities for

58:19
dummy version two

58:21
um there will be a version three coming

58:22
down the pike but uh uh we'll have all

58:25
of this on Care on Carrie's page on my

58:27
site we'll have the link to the Amazon

58:29
uh where you can buy it direct from

58:31
Amazon annuities for dummies Carrie

58:34
thank you so much for joining joining me

58:36
with fun and fun with annuities any last

58:37
comments

58:40
uh please buy the book The you will not

58:45
regret it the it's a it's a book for

58:48
retirement income planning with

58:50
annuities it's not just talking about

58:52
annuities because they're an interesting

58:57
they're important I don't think anybody

58:59
who's preparing for retirement in

59:01
America who's not fabulously wealthy

59:04
every everyone should get this book I

59:07
agree everybody

59:10
yeah I agree I agree totally well listen

59:13
everyone thanks so much for joining us

59:14
on all major platforms and the fun with

59:16
annuities YouTube channel my name is

59:18
Stan the annuity man America's annuity

59:20
agent I will see you next time

59:26
[Music]