John Lenz: Annuity Insider Strategies for Rising Rates & Inflation

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can find out the brutal

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facts about annuities with no sales

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pitches or high pressure nonsense just

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the brutal and factual annuity truth

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which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

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host stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent license in all 50 states

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we are proud happy and so privileged to

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have a repeat guest on

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the annuity architect himself the master

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of the universe and the annuity space

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live from portland oregon mr john lens

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john welcome back to the show

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thanks dan it's nice to be called master

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of something master of the universe

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absolutely he just left the screen for

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all those people that are joining us on

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the major podcast platforms i want to

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thank you

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and we're also showing our our mugs on

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the fun with annuities youtube channel

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both

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growing by leaps and bounds and one of

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the reasons that this podcast john is

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growing by leaps and bounds is i don't

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talk as much and i let you talk

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so we're going to let you talk now we we

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um

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we typically just free form this because

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john and i do that a lot

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uh we talk a lot about things i listen

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to john because he's one of the few

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people i really believe just he just

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knows this stuff backwards and forwards

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but i'm going to throw a broad topic at

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you john and i'm going to see if you can

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hit it out of the ballpark

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i need your observations on the current

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spea market spea to all the humans out

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there means single premium immediate

1:56
annuity and non-annuity speak

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so it's the godfather of all annuities

2:00
it's the pension annuity

2:02
what's going on in the spear world john

2:04
lennon's

2:07
well this uh rise in interest rates has

2:10
been really uh a positive for the uh for

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the annuity space in general uh and

2:16
spears

2:17
uh have really responded nicely where

2:20
the single premium

2:22
immediate annuity is now buying

2:25
a more robust monthly income

2:28
on top of that

2:30
the

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inflation concerns that people have

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uh have led to a little interest in what

2:38
about this annuity payment going up

2:40
every year so

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several companies have uh

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historically offered some inflation

2:46
adjustments that you can buy into the

2:48
into the annuity payment

2:50
three four five percent a year cost of

2:52
living adjustment

2:54
um right cola cost of living

2:58
or cpi is which don't exist anymore john

3:00
correct

3:01
yeah i think the cpiu is a tough thing

3:03
to do is we're going to find out when

3:05
the social security starts throwing out

3:07
a nine percent adjustment and that's

3:09
going to mess up their actuarial

3:10
calculations but so insurance companies

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rather than have to wonder what

3:14
inflation might be in the future

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generally limit it to a single digit

3:18
number so hold that thought for a second

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just to to further educate because you

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know john i'm an edutainer at heart

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which is a combination of the two um so

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what we're talking about you can set up

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whatever ding and ring there in the

3:31
background john i don't know what that

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was i was turning up my volume okay so

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so cola you can choose a percentage

3:37
meaning that

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hey stan the annuity man america's

3:40
annuity agent i need my income to

3:42
increase by three percent two percent

3:44
four percent and annually

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so before you jump up and down and start

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high-fiving yourself on that comment the

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annuity companies don't give it away i

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give it back to you john lenz

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well here's the here's what the math how

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the math works if you if you're i'm

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working on a case right now on a woman

4:04
who's uh

4:05
72 or 3 years old she's having to take

4:07
her

4:08
her first rmd

4:11
and

4:12
she's going to live to a hundred her mom

4:14
lived in 98.

4:15
uh her dad lived in her 90s and she's

4:18
healthier than both of them i mean at 72

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she's taking no drugs i mean no blood

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pressure medication no cholesterol

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yeah i mean

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at the end of the day

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she's got you know if there's 100 women

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her age a handful of them are going to

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make it to 100 she's going to be in that

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handful

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she's lean and fit and active

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and and happy

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doesn't smoke uh drinks moderately i

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mean all the things that are going to

4:44
get you you know living a long time

4:46
so a big concern as an advisor

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is and as a as a

4:52
retiree is am i going to run out of

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money

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and that's a that's a real concern of

4:58
her she doesn't have a huge amount of

4:59
money um but she's got very little debt

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kind of a predictable uh

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living expense

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and so we're examining whether or not it

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makes sense to keep you know blocks of a

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hundred thousand dollars how we'll

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invest those some of those are invested

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in growth securities in the market

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and then she's contemplating hey should

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i do this four percent

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five year

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you know my

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multi-year guaranteed annuity rate or

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should i use a spea and have lifetime

5:29
income

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so here's what i found

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you put the money in

5:34
and three percent growth and let it grow

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over time hundred thousand dollars buys

5:38
about sixty five hundred dollars a year

5:41
but at three percent increase over time

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if she does live out into her 90s

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the guaranteed return on her deposit is

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between five and a half and almost eight

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percent

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with

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no variability uh there's just there's

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no way out of it uh so she's very very

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interested in that it solves uh

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my problem as an advisor because she has

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a base level of income she can invest

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some of her other assets for for growth

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so that's that's got me excited

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and that says a lot because john is an

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exciting dude i mean he just walks in

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the room and the room just lights up i

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mean he is a electrical

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knob himself

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that's interesting and you know

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having worked on wall street worked in

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the world trade two center before it

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fell of course

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um

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if five to eight percent consistently

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gets a statue built of you in in new

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york city i mean that's a consistent

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people say well i'd like yeah i love

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when people call i'd like to get eight

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to nine percent

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consistent i'm like yeah you and every

6:44
other hedge fund right i mean you got to

6:46
be realistic those numbers sound great

6:48
and they're really fun in a bull market

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but when we get into choppy markets like

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this

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you realize how hard those numbers

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actually are so

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so

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i'm also finding people are now

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revisiting can i live off the interest i

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did a video called recently called

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you've won the game so why are you still

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playing

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which means you can actually peel off

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interest at higher levels if you have

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multiple millions of dollars

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and never touch the principle and a lot

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of people just can't believe it's that

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simple now because it's been so long

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since we could do that are you running

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into that as well

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yeah yeah and you and i talked about

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that i think the last time we joined up

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in this venue about creating an annuity

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ladder or you know today what i'm seeing

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because of the way the interest rate

7:30
curve is set there's really no advantage

7:32
to going out

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past about five or six years correct

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because the uh the yield on a five-year

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myga is you know four

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four and a quarter maybe even a little

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better and the 10 years are about the

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same so everybody wants to

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hedge their bet they get interest rates

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might go up

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yeah so a million dollars generates 40

7:52
000 a year income and your principles

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intact the entire time no nothing wrong

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with that

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as van halen said john lennon's quote

8:02
everybody wants some i want some too

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unquote and i think that pretty much

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sums up the might everything to me is

8:08
rock and roll as you know john so yeah

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um you know without going into detail

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that

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the migra rates here

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are creeping into that sales pitch dream

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of a lot of indexed annuities because if

8:20
you can do four four and a half percent

8:22
then why would you risk zero to get six

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right

8:26
right

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so it's it's a little bit tougher sell

8:31
let's talk about inflation john i know

8:33
that um when your friend really close

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friend

8:37
at the fed miss yellen said it's

8:40
transitory i'm assuming you did not

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agree with that

8:43
but yeah janet and i have not had coffee

8:46
uh recently to talk about that

8:49
so i turned to my

8:51
coin and flipped a coin and it came up

8:54
uh inflation seems to be

8:56
in my view i'm concerned about it being

8:58
here uh for the long term i mean it has

9:00
been here for the long term but maybe

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not at

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the two or three percent we've been used

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to for so long

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well obviously i petitioned early on and

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loudly for you to be fed chair

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and um they went with a guy named powell

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instead i don't know why but

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um do you believe that he's going to

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continually raise race or do you think

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this is the last bullet in his gun going

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into the july fed hike

9:25
i'm going to consult my uh

9:28
yeah he just i think he's going to

9:29
continue to raise rates uh until we see

9:33
a mild recession

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uh

9:36
some kind of cooldown

9:38
you know it's

9:39
it's amazing it works anyway right money

9:41
and digital ones and zeros in in

9:43
accounts uh

9:45
i don't envy those people i mean they've

9:47
already admitted they missed uh the

9:50
early signs and and didn't react

9:52
appropriately so

9:54
you know we'll see i personally would uh

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like to see

9:58
uh a very soft landing and everybody

10:00
live happily ever after and puppies and

10:02
rainbows that's my deal yeah i mean

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we're all about puppies and rainbows

10:05
here at phone with annuities inflation

10:07
adjusted

10:09
lifetime income

10:10
do you have any insight on that john

10:12
that's not sales pitching of course you

10:13
don't sales pitch you just hit them

10:15
straight into the phone oh no on the

10:16
numbers you buy

10:18
yeah let's talk about realistic

10:20
inflation-adjusted

10:21
strategies for income

10:25
well okay so you know again a strategy

10:29
using an insurance product that's safe

10:33
it's hard to use a safe product to go

10:36
into a

10:37
an environment that we don't know if

10:39
you're gonna have to take risks most

10:41
people think about hedging inflation

10:42
risk with growth assets right in the

10:44
market

10:45
but you found out recently how you can

10:47
lose 20 or 25 percent of your money in a

10:49
hurry

10:50
using that strategy and that's

10:52
no big deal if you're 40 years old in a

10:54
401k plan but if you're 70

10:57
or 80 and you're drawing down your

10:58
portfolio that looks like

11:01
death warmed over

11:02
and so

11:03
what what the industry is doing in

11:05
addition to this uh inflation-adjusted

11:09
immediate annuity guarantee

11:12
is they're coming up with index annuity

11:14
riders

11:15
that

11:16
increase the monthly income

11:19
based on the performance of market

11:21
indexes right

11:23
and those seem to be catching on a

11:25
little bit but don't they lower the

11:26
initial payout to make up for that john

11:28
they don't give anything away sure

11:31
sure absolutely uh companies that build

11:34
in an inflation either have to charge

11:36
more on the front end or

11:38
start at a lower benchmark and as you

11:40
might imagine there's actuaries at

11:42
insurance companies that design all

11:43
these things and they make the

11:45
break-even point somewhere out there

11:47
about your average life expectancy you

11:49
think yeah so where advisors like you

11:53
uh

11:54
out-think the insurance company is we're

11:56
only going to recommend these for people

11:58
who have better than uh better odds of

12:00
living a long period of time because

12:02
they're healthy

12:03
wealthy

12:04
wise and have parents that were the same

12:08
i agree i mean if it sounds too good to

12:09
be true it is but falling out of that

12:11
category of you know me and you are

12:12
always walking the streets of portland

12:14
new york city las vegas chicago and

12:16
other places

12:17
after we go see the concert we're

12:19
looking for a place that says we can

12:21
have our cake and eat it too which leads

12:22
me to my next question

12:25
return of premium

12:27
multi-year guarantee annuities john

12:29
i want to buy a multi-year guarantee

12:31
annuity now but what if the rates change

12:33
i want to be able to pivot and i wanna i

12:34
wanna i wanna i wanna i wanna i wanna

12:38
what do we do all right

12:41
yeah that's uh that is something that is

12:44
relatively new and more interesting

12:46
today for a segment of people and that

12:48
is

12:49
as you talk to people during you know

12:51
every day

12:52
they want to invest their money at a

12:54
good rate but they're worried that if

12:56
they do that today interest rates going

12:57
to go up tomorrow yep and so people

13:00
still sit on their money in a money

13:01
market

13:02
you know with it not keeping up with

13:05
inflation and they pass up a

13:06
three-year-old four percent interest

13:08
rate guarantee so a couple of good

13:10
companies uh

13:11
one of them never mentioned john we

13:13
can't mention names no we won't do that

13:15
one here in portland one out in new york

13:17
oh you mentioned cities very nice go

13:19
ahead states

13:21
in the united states in the united

13:22
states of america yeah the greatest

13:25
pleasure on earth john likely approved

13:28
in the state that your listener is in

13:30
uh you can buy a uh three five

13:36
ten year rate guarantee

13:38
and if interest rates go up

13:41
uh and spike up and you are in this

13:43
moment of remorse and regret for putting

13:46
your money in a three or five year place

13:48
now you could get more you can go to the

13:50
insurance company and say i would like

13:52
all of my money back

13:54
original principle original principle so

13:57
your penalty would be the interest that

13:58
you've earned

13:59
uh in the interim and it's really

14:01
becomes an easy math question if you

14:04
invest in today and we're getting four

14:06
and six months from now you could get

14:08
six

14:09
you'd forego

14:10
uh six months worth of interest so that

14:12
you could get a six percent return

14:14
at two percent improvement oh you know

14:16
over the next five years so those are

14:18
available

14:19
and they come with uh you know a

14:22
slightly lower interest rate up front

14:24
because the insurance company has to go

14:26
out and buy a hedge against you

14:28
leaving is what's the difference between

14:31
this of now i've i'm i've just texted my

14:34
intellectual property lawyer to

14:37
to um trademark pivot mica

14:40
which is what you just talked about but

14:42
what's the difference between a pivot

14:44
miga

14:46
and a traditional fixed

14:48
from way back in the day

14:50
well a traditional fix way back in the

14:53
day

14:54
had a declining surrender penalty on the

14:56
back end of it you know back in the day

14:58
they are almost 7 to 10 years or 15

15:01
years in duration

15:04
and so if interest rates went up and you

15:06
left you might leave behind nine percent

15:08
of your principal

15:10
so this new pivot miga i like that don't

15:13
now stop for a second john

15:15
that's a really good name

15:18
it's a pivot miga it's a lot more

15:20
interesting than rop which people don't

15:22
really understand which stands for

15:23
return of premium but but uh pivot my

15:27
god here's the other name i had for it

15:29
john just just because i'm a marketing

15:31
genius as you know

15:33
i was going to call it

15:34
the fork and the road mica

15:37
short term fork miga but i thought that

15:39
could cause problems

15:41
yeah i'd stay away from anything that

15:42
sounds like fork

15:43
[Laughter]

15:46
stick stick pivot so we're so it's not a

15:49
fork in the road because as i always

15:51
tell people when you come to the fork

15:52
and road what do you do you pick it up

15:53
john okay but fork in the road my god no

15:56
it's a pivot mic so let's keep going on

15:58
the pivot pivot let's say that you had a

16:00
couple hundred thousand dollars yeah i'd

16:02
say gosh i could set on

16:05
i'll invest a hundred today four percent

16:08
and i'm going to sit on 100 and wait for

16:10
interest rates go up well you're sitting

16:12
in a money market at one and you're

16:13
losing

16:14
opportunity costs of three a year

16:17
so you can invest 100 at four and then

16:20
put the other 100 in the pivot mica at

16:23
three seven

16:24
so you're only losing 30 basis points

16:26
one third of a percent and if interest

16:29
rates spike in the next year

16:31
bang you leave

16:33
get your five percent

16:41
exactly i'm gonna i'm gonna create a

16:42
whole i mean i create genres every day

16:44
john do you know

16:45
um it's a you pivot and go to the higher

16:48
rate we're pivoting to the higher rate

16:50
we're always pivoting because it's a

16:52
pivot mica now do you see this pivot

16:54
maga

16:55
strategy

16:56
sweeping the fruited plane of carriers

16:58
or are we just have a bunch of um the

17:01
pioneers take all the arrows situation

17:04
there's a couple of companies that are

17:06
doing this right now

17:07
but i'm saying will people follow john

17:09
just because it's a good idea oh yeah no

17:11
no no this is uh people are doing this

17:13
they're basically paying a small

17:16
premium for the option to get a higher

17:18
interest rate

17:20
it takes somebody like you to explain it

17:22
to somebody because if you looked at a

17:24
spreadsheet and you saw a 4 and a 3.7

17:27
you'd probably choose the four

17:29
but if you but if you claim it as pivot

17:31
might and there's there's corresponding

17:33
swag and merchandise that goes along

17:35
with it and the ad campaign with me as

17:37
the front person

17:38
pivot my guests do have a possibility of

17:40
sweeping the country because people do

17:43
want their i mean that's what i run into

17:45
you know in the annuity industry

17:47
everyone's like can't you i just i bet

17:49
you can't wait till interest rates trust

17:50
i'm like kinda but you know what people

17:53
it just paralyzes them because now

17:55
everyone becomes an interest rate um

17:58
analyst and well i truly believe that mr

18:01
powell is i'm like you don't know you

18:04
don't know i don't know john lennon's

18:06
don't know but everyone turns into an

18:08
analyst at this point

18:10
now and i we watched this as interest

18:12
rates fell

18:14
people wanted to wait till rates went

18:16
back up or they wanted to just invest

18:18
short term i mean for the last 25 years

18:20
the smartest thing you could have done

18:21
in the annuity space is to bought

18:23
10-year rate guarantees

18:25
because you could have locked in these

18:26
eights and nines and sixes and fives

18:29
instead of the shorter term now

18:32
interest rate's going up and i had lots

18:35
of people say john call me back when

18:36
interest rates get three percent or more

18:38
now probably back when rates get about

18:40
four percent right now they're like oh

18:41
interest rates going up and the the

18:43
fed's gonna raise rates as if that was

18:45
going to move the annuity market and

18:46
people forget that that fed rate has

18:49
something to do with the federal reserve

18:50
and banks not so much annuity rates

18:52
inflation really is going to drive you

18:55
know 10-year treasury yields and the

18:57
annuity marketplace so

18:59
uh

19:00
this really gives people an opportunity

19:02
i like to hedge their bet for a small

19:04
amount of money

19:06
i like it i have a bunch i get 400

19:08
emails a day a lot of them are like you

19:10
know pay me back when the three percent

19:12
three year hits five percent and like a

19:14
year ago we looked back at the records

19:15
and it was when the three here hit four

19:17
percent i'm like well

19:19
i remember a long time ago

19:21
when i used to wear a suit and a tie

19:23
john i looked very very spiffy there was

19:25
no hat no logos

19:27
but i was selling municipal bonds for

19:29
morgan stanley i could not give away

19:33
six percent

19:34
aaa triple a munis

19:36
tax-free during the dot-com era it seems

19:39
eerily similar right now

19:41
um

19:42
there's a lot of people that by the way

19:44
and when i did that for people that

19:46
understand muni's they were non-callable

19:48
i still get christmas cards from people

19:50
that i sold

19:52
a long time ago because they're getting

19:54
six percent tax free no they're not

19:55
available so please don't email me

19:58
so pivot mygas

20:00
um

20:01
that's fantastic in the industry they

20:02
call in return a premium so that would

20:04
be a rop miga which means nothing that's

20:07
the reason the annuity industry is a

20:08
very small industry they have the

20:10
marketing brain of a piece of cardboard

20:14
um so pivot migas are the new things but

20:17
between pivot my guess john and my myga

20:19
despia campaign that i'm on right now

20:22
um

20:23
man

20:24
i mean we're trailblazing out here but i

20:26
give you full credit for inspiring me on

20:28
a daily basis to think outside the box

20:30
which is what you do

20:31
well i know you're good at names pivot

20:34
mica might be a good band name

20:36
pivot mica

20:38
could be kind of uh like a

20:41
like a new wave band you know like the

20:43
flock of seagulls hair and stuff for

20:45
people that remember that well our

20:47
industry is really good at creating

20:48
these acronyms that no one understands

20:50
so

20:52
it makes total sense

20:54
explain pivot mica to a nine year old of

20:56
course everything i do is to nine year

20:58
olds know if it's nine year olds and

21:00
then that one

21:01
the one person that doesn't know that

21:02
multi-year guarantee annuity is my

21:05
uh yeah

21:08
pivot you know what it's called john

21:10
it's not it's not pivot miga

21:13
it's and here's the here's the acronym

21:15
and then we're going to move on because

21:16
i've got so much i want to talk to you

21:17
about but

21:19
right now is what's called podcast gold

21:21
john what we're doing right now it's

21:23
it's lightning in a bottle we got to

21:24
catch it it's a pra

21:28
it's a pivot rate annuity pivot rate

21:30
there we go it's a pivot rate annuity

21:32
pra

21:34
and so i'm gonna let me text my lawyer

21:36
now we'll get on that so

21:39
on to better things because we did solve

21:40
that

21:42
when people are thinking about taking

21:44
income right now john lennon's or

21:48
deferring it and waiting what are you

21:50
telling them

21:51
well that is is that a good question the

21:54
second leading question today that i do

21:57
get that regularly because

21:59
the industry is has

22:01
been set up forever the annuity industry

22:03
was founded on a concept of

22:06
income for a period of years generally

22:08
for a lifetime

22:10
and

22:11
it that's a really interesting

22:12
foundation because it turns out

22:15
we as humans need income

22:17
every month to pay those bills that are

22:19
so semi-important like food and

22:22
heating and and then you're part of the

22:24
world air conditioning yes and uh you

22:26
know rent or mortgage and it's very hard

22:29
sometimes to take a lump sum of money

22:31
and determine how long it's going to

22:33
last so the industry said we'll take the

22:35
risk give us the money we'll make you a

22:37
monthly payment

22:39
and

22:40
a lot of people get a little bit antsy

22:42
about that right it's uh what if i die

22:44
early

22:45
i don't hear anybody complaining about

22:47
what if i pay into social security my

22:49
whole life and then die

22:52
when i'm 66 right was that a bad deal

22:56
no because

22:57
you don't need social security anymore

23:01
because you're dead

23:02
yeah you know and i always say to people

23:04
john you can write this down if you want

23:06
to get a pin out um

23:09
death is not a good strategy

23:12
yeah

23:12
do you agree with that

23:15
yes i do i just soon not implement that

23:18
part of my plan yet

23:20
yes but so income now or income later

23:24
it's it's uh we have a lot of practice

23:26
in that as advisors because people you

23:28
know who have retail uh clients that are

23:31
making retirement decisions should i

23:33
take social security early which you can

23:35
do at 62 now or normal retirement age

23:38
which is about 66 you know and moving up

23:40
over time

23:42
and of course the actuaries at the

23:43
social security administration have

23:45
figured it all out that if you take it

23:46
early and or you wait or you defer even

23:49
out to 70

23:51
that

23:51
the

23:52
amount of money you receive is going to

23:54
be about the same when you reach your

23:56
average life expectancy

23:58
so this whole income now or income later

24:01
comes down to how long you think you're

24:04
going to live or your plan is built

24:06
around a certain number of years

24:08
and if your parents are still alive and

24:09
you're in your 60s you should plan on

24:11
living at least as long as they do under

24:13
normal circumstances so

24:15
um i love to do a spreadsheet that shows

24:19
if you annuitize now or take income from

24:22
your annuity now let's say on a hundred

24:24
thousand dollars that's 6500 a year

24:27
or you wait 10 years where you could

24:30
take out thirteen thousand dollars a

24:32
year

24:33
which one's better

24:35
and the answer is depends on how long

24:37
you live

24:38
so for this case of this person i'm

24:40
talking about now

24:42
if they live to age 83 it's exactly a

24:45
toss-up

24:46
but if you live which happens to be the

24:48
average life expectancy for a woman uh

24:51
this you know 83 is her average life

24:52
expectancy meaning

24:54
half the people her age will be dead by

24:56
then the other half will still be living

24:58
my client thinks they're going to be in

25:00
the living half of course most people do

25:03
but only half are right

25:05
so if you have reasonable demonstrable

25:08
evidence like living parents good health

25:10
no meds you would als you would want to

25:13
take income later so start that annuity

25:16
cooking growing earning tax deferred

25:18
magical interest that's eighth wonder of

25:21
the world

25:22
and then turn it on

25:24
as you get a little older

25:26
and then reap the benefits for the rest

25:28
of your life

25:30
i always tell people there's no roi

25:32
until you die and i really can't give

25:33
that to you until you die and i always

25:36
offer the uh the really nice gesture

25:38
john that no one's taking me up on i

25:40
will come to the funeral and i will sing

25:41
that to you i have a song that i put

25:43
together it's called roi when you die

25:45
but no one's ever done that maybe how

25:47
about you john if you die can i come to

25:49
your funeral and sing that

25:51
roi will your wife let no i doubt if

25:53
your wife will let me do that i've got a

25:55
little life insurance that has the same

25:58
issue what's the rate of return on your

25:59
life insurance premium well just tell me

26:02
when you're going to go out uh and the

26:04
sooner the better on that

26:06
and of course with an annuity the longer

26:07
you live the higher your rate of return

26:10
it's really that simple john i mean the

26:13
whole this whole annuity life insurance

26:15
thing is really really simple i crack up

26:18
when i see agents make it difficult and

26:20
i'm going just make it simple i mean

26:23
this is

26:24
this is not rocket science it doesn't

26:26
have to be

26:27
people like you can turn it into rocket

26:29
science and then bring it back down

26:31
to the to the uh to the minions of us

26:33
like yeah and explain it to us which

26:35
leads me to my next topic john another

26:37
acronym that makes absolutely no sense

26:40
in the annuity space but i get questions

26:42
on it all day long

26:44
and it it does not equate to wrestling

26:47
mva

26:49
it doesn't mean i beat hulk hogan in the

26:51
cage match what's mba john

26:55
i have to go back

26:57
market value adjustment i have to go

27:00
back

27:01
wait a minute did i just trigger

27:03
something

27:04
i have to rewind and it'll work

27:07
i forgot to tell you

27:09
that roi when you die

27:12
yes sub

27:13
text line

27:14
yes

27:15
the woman that takes this 73 year old

27:19
and does the inflation-adjusted income

27:21
yes has a 5

27:23
roi in 20 years and a 7.89 return if she

27:28
makes it to 100 guaranteed that is a

27:30
fantastic number for her and she plans

27:32
on getting there so mva i would sing

27:35
that with a band

27:38
there you go i would transition to the

27:39
8.9 on the bridge you know when the

27:41
guitars come in

27:43
and i can see that happening okay market

27:45
value adjustment john lens um

27:50
i know

27:50
annuities are always hedging so they can

27:52
make the money is that what this is

27:55
no i mean uh

27:57
market value adjustment is

27:59
the way an insurance company puts a

28:03
a page in the contract that says

28:05
if you leave early

28:07
and interest rates have gone up or down

28:11
we're going to adjust your

28:12
their money we send you uh

28:15
according to a formula

28:17
and that that formula is tied to the

28:20
inverse relationship between bonds and

28:22
interest rates which i know just flipped

28:24
a bunch of switches off on people like i

28:26
don't want to hear about that i've heard

28:28
you know

28:29
bottom line is this that if you control

28:32
you could have said flux capacitor at

28:33
the same time

28:34
yeah that's right the flux capacitor of

28:36
the annuity you know if it's rates go up

28:39
during the next few years and you want

28:40
to get out of your annuity and you don't

28:42
have this return of premium feature

28:44
then you're going to pay a penalty to

28:47
the insurance company because they're

28:49
going to have to liquidate the

28:50
investments that they purchase with your

28:52
money

28:53
at a loss

28:55
and in addition to your in addition to

28:58
your in addition to the uh surrender

29:00
charts correct

29:02
so some people don't like that or don't

29:04
understand it or don't want it so a few

29:06
good companies uh that are likely

29:09
approved in the state where your

29:10
listener is today uh that's every state

29:13
john and you knew any man is licensed in

29:15
all 50 states as you know

29:17
so the uh

29:18
this is not uh this is this is not in

29:21
every state but most states have uh a

29:24
product that says we're not going to

29:26
charge you this extra feature and

29:28
usually there's a nominal interest rate

29:30
charge to that uh you know it might be

29:33
a tenth of an interest a tenth of a

29:35
percent or

29:36
you know a quarter of a percent of

29:38
interest but you get it you can avoid

29:40
that penalty

29:41
uh and

29:43
you know if you look at it as a cup half

29:45
full i'm a cup half full guy you are is

29:47
that if you'll accept the mva like you

29:49
buy a five year annuity you think you're

29:51
going to be in it for five years

29:53
right and so if you'll accept this

29:55
market value adjustment you'll get paid

29:58
a higher interest rate because the

30:00
insurance companies got a little

30:01
protection against their investment so

30:04
today you might get four and a quarter

30:05
with an mba at four without

30:08
it's a it's um it all comes down to

30:10
allocation proportion always say don't

30:12
put too much money into annuities i

30:13
think this is plays into that people

30:15
always ask about mva and i'm like really

30:17
doesn't apply unless you're cashing the

30:18
darn thing out midstream

30:20
if you're holding it to a duration term

30:23
then it's irrelevant it's not part of it

30:25
but if you said stan i heard john

30:27
lennon's

30:28
and he's so impressive with that deep

30:30
voice and ver you know he talked about

30:32
mbas i want my guess without mbas i can

30:35
do that i can filter that for you

30:36
because that's what we do here at the

30:38
annuity man

30:39
um and we can find those for you if you

30:41
don't even want to go there but like

30:43
john said you know annuity companies

30:45
don't give anything away

30:47
sometimes the ones without mvas

30:51
are competitive and uh compared to the

30:53
ones with it just depends

30:55
but we certainly can do that and and

30:57
find those for you it's kind of like

31:00
it's kind of like picking a seat on a

31:01
plane john

31:02
right kind of a mica plane

31:06
there you go a pivot rate annuity

31:09
well i think people want flexibility

31:12
and it's not an all-or-nothing

31:14
proposition as i was saying earlier you

31:15
can allocate some of your money and just

31:17
get yourself a guarantee of five percent

31:19
or four percent excuse me for five years

31:21
and stay there and with the other money

31:23
you can make this adjustment in your in

31:25
your annuity portfolio that says i've

31:27
got some flexibility to get out early

31:30
and

31:32
reinvest at a higher interest rate

31:34
and what's the cost

31:36
just the interest that you've earned

31:38
i think instead of mba should be an irp

31:41
interest rate play

31:43
um call it a erp

31:46
or no actually dude something better

31:48
with that john you call it an herb like

31:50
call it irv like irv johnson like the

31:52
guy that you're counting herb

31:54
interest rate valuation so what's my

31:56
interest rate valuation when i cash it

31:58
out why did they call it market rate i

32:00
need to be hired by the us

32:02
you know they call it market value so

32:04
it's it relates to bonds right you know

32:06
you sold bonds if you sold somebody a

32:08
muni bond for a hundred thousand dollars

32:11
and interest rates turn around the next

32:13
day and went up

32:15
and that person wanted out of that muni

32:17
bond you might get them out for 99 000

32:21
and my question to people would be do

32:22
you want irv on your policy do you want

32:24
irv off of your policy you know and you

32:26
have a picture of irv you know what irv

32:28
looks like right i mean he's irv

32:31
and irv do you want irv on your policy

32:33
and he's sitting there and you know and

32:35
it doesn't matter you have to talk to

32:37
earth you if you're going to hold it

32:38
duration but if you don't and interest

32:40
rates move against you herb's coming out

32:42
and you don't want to talk to her i

32:43
hadn't brushed his teeth herb's irf

32:46
and i think i've solved two things so

32:48
now i'm going to call market value

32:49
adjustment herbs

32:51
and i'm going to call migas with return

32:53
to principal pivot rate annuities and i

32:56
think people will understand that i

32:58
guarantee you john someone's going to

33:00
call me and say i don't want to erv on

33:02
my policy i'll know exactly what that is

33:04
the problem is i have to take all my

33:06
employees and say here's what irv means

33:11
and you're going to have to see john

33:12
they might be the only 20 people that

33:14
know what they are in the country so

33:16
what

33:17
man when i when i

33:18
monitor something john it sweeps the

33:20
country

33:22
it really does you know um

33:25
let's talk stretch iras john i mean

33:28
when the secure act comes out finally i

33:31
guess whenever first of all it's going

33:33
to be good because ed slots going to

33:35
have a heart attack if these things keep

33:36
coming out he doesn't like this thing at

33:38
all

33:39
people don't know who ed slide is he's

33:41
dr ira man he he's a smart dude in the

33:44
room his people are smart

33:46
i'm saying all that because i want him

33:48
on my podcast john but um let's talk

33:51
about stretch iras and what you have

33:53
found to

33:55
instead of waiting on congress

33:57
i know you're a big fan of congress john

33:59
i know you wait on them to to change

34:01
things for the better but since they're

34:02
kind of meandering here what are you

34:04
doing for stretch iras

34:06
well we've had to change

34:08
uh a teeny bit of background if you're

34:11
married and your your spouse passes away

34:15
you don't have a stretch ira right you

34:18
get to assume that ira is the new owner

34:20
and treat it as your own

34:23
but if you're not married to the person

34:26
who's made you the beneficiary of their

34:28
ira

34:29
such as a

34:30
any non-spouse beneficiary let's say my

34:33
father passed away he's still living

34:35
yeah and he's got an ira and he names me

34:37
the beneficiary well i'm still working i

34:40
don't particularly want to take his ira

34:43
in a lump sum and add it under my tax

34:45
return and give a big chunk of it back

34:47
to the feds and the great state of

34:49
oregon

34:50
so what i'd like to be able to do is to

34:54
take this out over a time period well i

34:56
used to be able to take it out or you

34:58
know a period of time based on my age

35:01
which would be you know

35:03
maybe 25 years

35:05
except

35:06
congress in all their wisdom decided

35:08
that we're going to do away with that

35:10
and we're going to make the non-spouse

35:12
beneficiary take this money out

35:15
within 10 years

35:17
and

35:19
that's just unfortunate

35:21
so a lot of people are now kind of

35:22
throwing up their hands and just taking

35:24
the money in a lump sum and paying tax

35:26
which obviously was congress's intent

35:28
there's been a debate about whether you

35:30
need to start taking payments now or

35:32
take it out over 10 years what i found

35:34
is

35:35
for people who are

35:36
you know the age of a typical parent

35:39
when they're passing away their 50s 60s

35:41
maybe a little later

35:43
that they're maybe not ready to take all

35:45
that money at once and so we're

35:46
structuring it a 10-year

35:49
immediate annuity

35:50
10 payments you get interest on your

35:53
account

35:54
boom every year on what is it day the

35:57
19th of july you're going to get a check

36:00
for 10 grand

36:01
and that's going to end in 10 years

36:03
you're you're compliant with the law

36:05
and uh

36:06
you stretched out your tax burden and

36:09
earned interest in the interim so that's

36:11
what we're doing mostly and a lot of

36:13
insurance companies have just kind of

36:15
thrown in the towel and said we're not

36:16
going to handle

36:18
uh stretch iras for non-spouses but a

36:21
few companies

36:22
are still doing it and we're seeing some

36:24
interest there

36:26
yeah the i think the companies just

36:28
their lawyers got involved and said you

36:29
know what um just from an exposure

36:31
standpoint can we not even do these

36:33
because they i'm sure they ran the

36:35
numbers it's like 1.2 percent of their

36:37
business they're like don't even

36:39
don't even go there

36:41
yeah well what i found is let's take a

36:43
person who's 60 65 and they're

36:46
contemplating social security and now

36:48
all of a sudden they're the beneficiary

36:49
of an income stream from an ira

36:52
well they can take that money and push

36:55
the social security payment out until

36:57
they're 70 which gives them an 8

36:59
average annual increase in their payment

37:02
and live on the ira and then boom higher

37:05
social security

37:06
for life so there's there's some

37:08
interesting planning opportunities uh

37:11
with the new stretch ira regs

37:14
john what else is new in your world you

37:16
wake up every morning

37:18
trying to slay the dragon do what's

37:20
right for people

37:22
what um

37:24
what's keeping you going brother i mean

37:25
you you're you're energetic you're a

37:27
thought leader right here what what's

37:29
what's making you happy

37:31
in the industry yeah

37:33
thanks that's as an interesting question

37:36
i found more

37:38
interest

37:40
recently as i approach retirement years

37:43
and think about the next 20 or 25 years

37:48
what my income is going to look like i

37:50
found it very interesting to help people

37:51
structure their income and build a

37:53
roadmap and a plan

37:55
because the typical person gets to

37:57
retirement and they're so used to

37:58
accumulating money they haven't thought

38:00
about distribution and don't really have

38:02
a good idea of you know what their 401k

38:05
will deliver over their lifetime

38:08
or the best way to handle it so

38:10
that that's still entertaining for me

38:12
i'm still passionate about that i love

38:14
to assist advisors in building

38:18
structured income plans we've talked in

38:20
the past about how to structure income

38:22
for people

38:23
who

38:24
might have a

38:25
child that isn't really good with

38:27
handling lump sums of money

38:29
that's interesting to me every day and

38:32
then i get to talk to guys like you

38:34
that's interesting

38:35
perhaps i'm to a point absolutely i mean

38:38
i call that kind of beneficiary planning

38:40
lovingly handcuffing your beneficiaries

38:43
yeah

38:44
um

38:45
i know that i would do that with my two

38:47
daughters that

38:49
if i do show up dead unexpectedly john

38:51
and that would be tragic

38:52
in a myriad of ways

38:54
you need to probably

38:57
just do a little bit of investigation

39:00
because the life insurance issues you

39:02
know just

39:03
my daughter's you know so we have that

39:05
annual thing every year where we talk

39:07
about okay here's what happens and they

39:09
look at they go really

39:11
and then they look at me like a like a

39:13
wolf looking at a wounded

39:16
elk

39:17
i guess i'm an elk to them john what do

39:19
you think big that's right

39:21
you could be a lumbering elk

39:23
[Laughter]

39:26
i've always wanted to ask you this but i

39:28
haven't roth iras do you trust the

39:30
government not to change the rules

39:32
oh

39:34
i'm afraid too many people might uh be

39:36
listening to this and so i'm gonna

39:38
answer absolutely i trust the government

39:40
with all my heart and everything

39:42
you do don't you i think my nose just

39:44
grew you know i'm not a i'm not a huge

39:46
roth ira fan i know many of my uh peers

39:49
are

39:51
uh i'm not either by the way never ever

39:53
ever have i advised any and for the

39:55
people out there i'm wrong trust me i'm

39:58
wrong you're right

39:59
i'm just saying

40:02
social security used to be tax free

40:04
that's all i'm saying

40:06
here's here's my 30 seconds on a roth

40:09
ira okay if

40:11
you okay if you you can start your clock

40:13
if you

40:15
if you pay uh if you took a

40:18
100 you had a 200 000 ira and you

40:20
converted half of it into a roth

40:22
and you paid the tax today

40:25
and then you invested the ira

40:27
and the roth at the same interest rate

40:30
and paid taxes on the same array when

40:33
you took it out you have identical

40:35
amounts of money

40:36
there's no difference at the end of the

40:38
day

40:39
if tax rates don't go up

40:43
then and they do go down actually in

40:45
your retirement when you you know my tax

40:47
rate should go down at retirement

40:48
because i'm going to be making less

40:49
money

40:51
and so a roth ira why pay taxes and a

40:53
high tax bracket a day

40:55
when they might be able to pay them in

40:57
you know a retirees tax bracket now if

40:59
i'm wrong and tax tax rates go way up

41:02
then i might wish that i had paid taxes

41:05
today

41:06
to avoid paying them in a higher bracket

41:08
in the future so this is one of those

41:10
things where

41:12
i never have found myself wishing to pay

41:14
more taxes john

41:16
i just spun my thing and my little coin

41:19
said tax rates are going to be the same

41:21
in your retirement years

41:23
and that's

41:24
that's going to stood on the edge no

41:26
that i mean that's it

41:28
what new products are you hearing the

41:30
whispers about that you can't share with

41:32
us but you are going to about do you

41:34
hear anything new out there i know that

41:37
annuity companies are trying to get

41:38
ahead of this demographic tidal wave

41:40
with all kinds of fancy stuff

41:43
there is a big interest right now and

41:46
companies trying to come up with uh an

41:49
annuity that's adjustable with interest

41:51
rates uh that's been tried in the past

41:55
there's there's some talk about

41:57
again inflation

41:59
uh but

42:01
if there was some brand new

42:02
revolutionary great idea coming out i

42:05
haven't heard about it yet

42:07
if you haven't heard about it and if i

42:09
haven't heard about it

42:12
then they're pretty secretive thank you

42:14
yeah i'm saying it's not out there but

42:16
i typically hear the whispers like you

42:18
do it's not like the electric car right

42:20
there's no electric annuity coming uh

42:23
innovation comes in really small bites

42:25
in a mature industry and this is a very

42:28
mature industry old and stodgy and dusty

42:32
yeah it's it's uh

42:34
overweight it's a little chunky a little

42:36
chunky

42:37
yeah just a tad chunky around the middle

42:39
i mean when your money goes up every day

42:41
it's just not much it's not that much

42:43
fun no i agree and and the calls about

42:46
hey spain or bitcoin annuities coming

42:48
anytime soon that one's kind of calmed

42:51
down a little bit because at 60 000 i'm

42:53
like you might want to calm down on that

42:55
and then it went to 40 i'm like they

42:57
kept coming i doubt if they're going to

42:59
do it at 40. i just you know we'll see

43:01
what happens to bitcoin of course i'm

43:03
going to be wrong on bitcoin john as i

43:05
always am oh

43:07
the life insurance industry will be a

43:09
long time in coming to put

43:13
a

43:14
a cryptocurrency account inside of

43:16
annuity i believe

43:18
uh there's just

43:20
the industry is so regulated by the

43:22
government

43:23
that they have to basically approve

43:26
any and all investments that go into the

43:28
reserves for insurance companies and do

43:30
reports for

43:32
adequacy and financial ratings

43:35
how do you put a bitcoin backing some of

43:37
these annuities

43:38
this is the ethereum fia john

43:41
ethereum and coin it's got a coinbase

43:44
income rider an ethereum accumulation

43:46
value and people like what are you

43:48
talking about we'll see

43:50
we'll see what it all comes down i think

43:52
the jaded view i have with the john and

43:54
i don't have a lot of jaded views as you

43:55
know

43:56
is you know i was around like you when

43:58
the internet kind of first started and

44:00
the myspaces and the aols were the first

44:02
ones there and people go myspace what's

44:04
that i'm like exactly

44:07
point well taken i don't

44:09
we'll see what happens with that but i

44:10
read an interesting stat the other day

44:12
that

44:13
over 50 of cryptocurrency owners as of

44:18
in 2022 have owned that cryptocurrency

44:20
less than a year

44:22
yeah i have a uh coinbase account and

44:26
they show the stats on the

44:28
cryptocurrencies that i own

44:30
and they have i think an average hold

44:32
time of like 60 days or less

44:35
so i apparently the only dummy that's

44:37
holding mine uh long term

44:40
john lentz you could write a book we

44:42
found one person doing buy and hold with

44:44
with cryptocurrency and he's in portland

44:47
it's unbelievable what he's doing how

44:50
about indexed annuities john you know

44:51
people always say stan why do you hate

44:52
index annuities i don't sell a ton of

44:54
them but i sell them properly without

44:56
hype and over

44:57
promotion and no back tested and all

44:59
that stuff

45:00
what's going on there what's going on in

45:02
my beloved beloved indexed annuity world

45:06
well i think people who are getting

45:07
their index annuity renewal statements

45:09
right now are getting a zero

45:12
uh people are getting their mutual fund

45:14
quarterly reports you're seeing it down

45:16
20. and so the the annuity world is sort

45:19
of singing zero is your hero i hate that

45:22
john you can't say that that's horrific

45:26
i'm just saying in my world people are

45:29
calling up and saying hey i didn't get

45:31
any money i didn't have any earnings on

45:34
my annuity and i said

45:36
well how much did you lose well i didn't

45:38
lose anything i said okay

45:40
i can't say zero is your hero because

45:42
that's true because i'll go crazy i'll

45:44
lose my mind i will if you said zero is

45:47
my hero on my hybrid annuity i might

45:50
have a coronary right here on the

45:52
podcast oh i'm on your hybrid right yeah

45:55
right i mean if you if you threw both of

45:56
those in at the same time i'd be like

45:59
i mean come on nobody nobody wants uh

46:02
to earn xero

46:04
but even more than that nobody wants to

46:06
lose money

46:08
and so i would say that uh right now i

46:10
think people

46:11
clients that i've talked to

46:13
uh are happy that they have assets that

46:15
haven't gone down in value and hope

46:18
hopeful there's a better year ahead

46:20
we're starting to see five-year 10-year

46:23
longer-term returns on these annuities

46:25
and what we're seeing is

46:27
rates that are 50 to 100 basis points so

46:29
one half of one percent to one percent

46:31
above what a fixed rate would have done

46:34
during that period of time which i think

46:36
is in line with expectations maybe maybe

46:39
less than in line with marketing

46:41
materials

46:43
that's true it's it's

46:45
i always say index annuities are not too

46:47
good to be true but they can be pretty

46:49
darn good

46:50
you know they're just they're just not

46:52
what they're promoted and hyped to be

46:54
and i do think that we need to as an

46:56
industry clean up the back testing

46:59
numbers that are shown

47:01
and um i was talking to a friend of mine

47:02
the other day called him mr fiax because

47:06
he comes on and talks about index

47:07
annuities for any index that hasn't been

47:10
if it's been around two years then we

47:11
can only back test it for two years you

47:13
can't take an

47:14
end to see index plural

47:17
that's been made up out of thin air and

47:19
back test it ten years because it hadn't

47:21
existed i think if we just did those

47:23
basic things as an industry

47:25
i think we'd win back some trust

47:28
um yeah i agree there's you know people

47:31
are argue that well we can uh back test

47:34
the constituent components of the

47:36
annuity if it had the s p 500 and the

47:39
nasdaq and the hang saying built into it

47:41
we can back test each of those

47:43
but back testing an algorithm

47:46
uh yeah i understand your concern there

47:49
and there's some legislation around

47:51
those and some regulations around those

47:53
back test

47:54
numbers i back tested an exercise

47:56
program recently where it showed me

47:58
doing 10 years of a thousand crunches a

48:00
day

48:02
and the the nut that the results john

48:05
were phenomenal

48:06
i showed this to my wife and she goes

48:08
let me know when that happens

48:10
okay

48:11
she wasn't she she didn't believe the

48:12
back tested numbers i said they're going

48:14
to come true look they're back tested

48:16
thousand crunches a day

48:18
results in a washboard ad

48:21
that you can't imagine

48:24
and what does that have to do with

48:25
annuities john it has to do with

48:27
annuities because we can't do back

48:28
tested numbers don't they have some kind

48:30
of regulation with life insurance index

48:32
universal life that you can't do that

48:35
there are regulations called the ag-49

48:38
and ag-49a that deal with

48:41
that sounds like a gun with back testing

48:43
yeah

48:45
i'm talking about at49 sounds bad

48:49
oh not really it's actual guideline

48:51
number 49 that

48:53
is trying to make sure that you know the

48:56
industry

48:57
delivers

48:59
sound

49:00
uh ethical

49:03
disclosure

49:04
and illustrations on insurance to people

49:07
uh it's a highly regulated business but

49:09
at the same time

49:11
uh insurance companies come up with ways

49:13
to

49:14
you know make proposals and

49:15
illustrations that are are pretty uh

49:18
optimistic

49:20
and i call those bfi's john brutally

49:22
factual illustrations

49:24
instead of

49:29
that's ag-49s subject for another

49:30
podcast it really is john

49:33
of course how i end these things

49:35
everyone waits to the end because they

49:37
want to hear the mic drop moment john

49:38
where i throw the ball to you

49:41
and in your infinite wisdom experience

49:45
just overall insight on humanity your

49:47
philanthropy everything that goes into

49:49
what makes up john lennon's

49:51
you're going to say something that

49:53
they're going to shut the podcast off

49:55
and it's going to make their day so i'm

49:58
going to count you down and then you're

49:59
going to give me that so go ahead 5 4 3

50:01
2 1

50:04
you know i'm going to stick with my

50:06
knitting and say that

50:09
i look at my

50:10
portfolio and i'm able to invest my

50:13
portfolio for long-term growth because

50:16
i've got a guaranteed base

50:18
and that's something i do wake up to and

50:20
think about

50:21
i've been times in my life where i had

50:22
too much of my money

50:24
in equities

50:25
and i was looking at it a lot during the

50:27
day and i know how to feel really bad at

50:29
the end of the day if you lose a bunch

50:30
of money

50:31
um

50:32
but having a balance uh and so balance

50:36
isn't all about finances it's about your

50:38
personal life and spending you know

50:40
loving time with your family and friends

50:42
and doing things you like

50:44
um

50:45
but if if you're not balanced

50:47
financially it's hard to make all that

50:49
other stuff work because of the

50:51
underlying worry that's in my world

50:55
and that's john lenz

50:56
the annuity architect good friend very

50:59
smart person

51:00
and an absolute treasure

51:03
to have in the annuity industry

51:06
period end of story there's no argument

51:07
about that

51:09
and the growing fan base continues to

51:11
grow as he's on the fun with annuities

51:12
podcast john i really appreciate you

51:14
being on i appreciate all the listeners

51:16
on all the major podcast platforms and

51:18
on watching us on the fun with annuities

51:20
youtube channel i will see you next week

51:28
thanks for listening to fun with

51:29
annuities please hit the subscribe

51:31
button and make sure to go to my site at

51:34
the annuityman.com where you can run

51:36
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51:39
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51:42
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51:47
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51:49
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51:55
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51:57
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51:59
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52:02
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52:04
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52:07
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fun with annuities

52:21
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52:32
you