Jason Fichtner: Understanding a Changing Retirement Landscape (TAM Classic)

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[Music]

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welcome to fund with annuities where

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every single week I welcome a celebrity

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let's get to

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[Music]

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it welcome to fun with annuities I'm

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your host Stan the annuity man America's

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annuity agent licens in all 50 States

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including that nice one you're sitting

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in right now I want to welcome everybody

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listening to us on all the major podcast

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platforms and all of you go-getters out

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there that are looking at us on the fun

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with Ani's YouTube channel and just seen

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how unbelievably attractive we are we

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were discussing beforehand that we both

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um we both think that we both have faces

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for radio if you know what that means

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but I am very honored to have Jason

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fitner um joined us today and he is

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royalty I mean he's one of these guys

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that I was expecting him to show up with

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like an ascot and this jacket with this

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you know the elbow protectors and all

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that stuff because that's how smart he

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is okay I'm gonna go through a couple of

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things um that he's done but we're GNA

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have a page for him like we always do

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for all of our guests on the site where

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you can look at his papers and you can

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go and read about what he's done I mean

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in a very technical term he's written a

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crapload of papers um I'm telling you

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this guy is prolific he's the vice

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president and chief Economist of the

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bipartisan policy Center he's a senior

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fellow at the alliance not Alliance

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Alliance for a lifetime income and

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retirement income Institute he's a

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research fellow at the center for

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Financial Security at the University of

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Wisconsin go Badgers and he's the

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treasurer um and National treasur of the

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National Academy of social

1:53
insurance he's done more than that I

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mean I was reading through his stuff too

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in just kind of the schools he attended

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which always like to do because you know

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I put myself through college playing

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basketball that's that's a you know

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that's my father's fault my mother's

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fault I blame them but he got his ba

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from the University of Michigan go

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Wolverines and then his MPP from

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Georgetown University go Hoya and then

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he got his PhD and public administration

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policy from Virginia Tech go Hokies um

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and because of all of those basketball

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you know school things he's now known as

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Dr J so Dr Jay welcome to fun with

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annuities thanks for me thanks for that

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great introduction I'll let you know

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even though I've written a lot my mother

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tells me she's never read one of those

2:35
because I I would understand it Jason

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she it back to

2:38
me let's Jump Right In Social Security

2:41
Jason um I deem you an expert in that

2:44
whether you want to say that you are or

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you aren't you are in my eyes and my in

2:48
my um clients and people listening's

2:50
eyes let's talk about social security

2:52
the current challenges and just your

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take on it and then from there we can uh

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dig in further so Social Security what's

2:59
happening with that right now with the

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government so that's a great place to

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start when we start thinking about

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protected income because Social Security

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is the largest actual government program

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we have that ures so many people um and

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I used to be the Principal Deputy

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Commissioner of Social Security

3:14
Administration so it's one of those nice

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little hats I got to wear and had been

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uh really privileged to serve in that

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capacity for four years nice the the

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interesting thing about social security

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though is it it does have Financial

3:26
challenges and so there are actually two

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separate legally distinct trust funds

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there's one for the retirement program

3:32
and one for the disability program most

3:34
people think about social security they

3:36
just think about the retirement program

3:37
but it is important to realize there's

3:39
also a disability insurance program uh

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which people don't often think about

3:42
until they need it uh and there's a one

3:44
in five chance that somebody who's you

3:46
know in their mid 20s today could be

3:48
disabled at some point in their lifetime

3:50
so we have to think about that program

3:52
the soleny of that program too and we

3:54
have public conversations about social

3:56
security solvency the public and the

3:58
media usually combine the trust together

4:00
they deserve sour cre trust fund

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standard so we'll do that for convention

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sake and the recent Source cre truste

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report that came out this past summer

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has the combined trust funds estimated

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to be depleted in 2034 so that's a

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little over 10 years away but what is

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trust fund depletion mean it does not

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mean social security goes bankrupt I

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think that's a really important thing to

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tell people who are both 20 years old 30

4:23
years old or 60 years old or 70 years

4:25
old the program is not going bankrupt

4:27
what trust fund depletion means is that

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over the course course of you know

4:30
decades the payroll taxes we paid into

4:32
the system were more than the benefits

4:34
that were being paid out and so that

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Surplus was accumulated in trust funds

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and so in treasury Bonds in a trust fund

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which have the full backing in faith of

4:42
the United States government and now

4:44
we're at the point where payroll taxes

4:45
alone are not enough to C benefit so

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Source secur Administration starts to

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redeem some of those trust funds to make

4:51
up the Delta the difference and that

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difference is going to be exhausted

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around 203 so what happens then well if

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Congress does nothing uh andless the

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trust funds become depleted it is

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possible that beneficiaries could see a

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25 or 26% immediate cut and benefit or

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we could see a four percentage Point

5:09
increase in our payroll tax so right now

5:11
we pay 12.4% for Social Security a

5:14
little bit more for Medicare so about

5:15
15.3 total you just focus on that 12.2

5:19
and we raise taxes to cover the

5:21
difference you're looking at about a

5:23
16.6% tax rate which when you start

5:25
adding on to Medicare your your federal

5:27
taxes your state taxes for some the

5:29
marginal tax rate can over 50% and

5:31
that's a big discouragement for work all

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right let's let's digest that for a

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second see if you can turn your volume

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just a little bit on your on your

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headset or whatever you have so let's

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digest that for a second um small

5:44
business owner I am I'm a Serial

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entrepreneur all I know is they're not

5:48
going to cut Social Security benefits I

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know that okay taxes are going to go up

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um do the younger people me and you I'm

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I'm putting us in that Dr Jay I'm

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putting us in the younger do we have to

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worry a little bit as 50y oldish is

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people so it's interesting for those of

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us who are 50ish which you know we are

6:09
you know the trust fund depletion dates

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right around the time when we're going

6:12
to be thinking about retiring and and

6:15
and so this is where you start thinking

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wait a minute what is what does this

6:17
mean for me and when we think about

6:19
retirement it's all about trying to

6:21
minimize risk in retire we think about

6:23
you know working and accumulating

6:24
savings and building up an asset when

6:26
you're retire you're now de accumulating

6:28
and you need to protect against various

6:29
risk longevity risk Market risk but now

6:32
you're looking at Social Security risk

6:33
and that's a political risk and you know

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in 20134 who's going to be president

6:39
who's G to be Speaker of the House who's

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going to control the Senate these are

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all political risks that could vary in

6:44
the timing of our ability to solve

6:45
Social Securities financing structures

6:47
like you I do not I cannot see a picture

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where you know the Congress says we're

6:52
going to let beneficiaries lose a

6:54
quarter that's is not going to happen um

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so what is what is that yeah so what

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does that mean it means you're probably

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going to have some combination of

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General Revenue transfers meaning the

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regular taxes we pay in income that goes

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to fund education defense and everything

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else some of that might be S siphoned

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off to make up the difference or we'll

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borrow more money for the general fund

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like we're borrowing today we're in

7:14
deficit financing for the federal

7:15
government or we could see some modest

7:17
changes to benefits on the high end so

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if we start thinking about what this

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means it's very unlikely again Congress

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would do a cut for everybody but they

7:25
might look and say wow look at those at

7:26
the high end the Jeff Bezos the Bill

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Gates those who've accumulated over a

7:30
million dollars in their tsp which

7:32
nowadays is a middle class tax break so

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there's a lot of middle class people

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with a million dollars in their ts in

7:37
their 401K plans for example who don't

7:40
feel like they're rich and don't think

7:42
they're gonna be rich in retirement who

7:43
could see a change in their benefit so

7:45
what this means for us is we might to

7:47
start thinking about how do we minimize

7:49
that risk retiring do we stay it a

7:51
little more today do we think about

7:52
working longer do we think about

7:54
delaying Social Security claiming a lot

7:55
of people don't understand the rules of

7:57
Social Security you can claim as early

7:59
as 62 and as late as 70 but the earlier

8:02
you claim the lower your monthly benefit

8:04
amount is you claim later at age 70 you

8:07
get a higher monthly benefit amount and

8:08
that Delta is big I mean thinking about

8:10
62 to 70 just that change is about 77%

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greater in monthly benefits if you wait

8:15
to age 70 from age 62 so we've got to

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start thinking about what this means to

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protected income for us and how we

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actually can maximize uh our income and

8:23
also minimize our risk in retirement for

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you and I and those who in our 50s or

8:27
those who are younger so security be

8:29
there the question is in what capacity

8:32
and how do we figure out how to save a

8:33
little more to make sure we're going to

8:35
have a dignified Financial

8:38
reti got it now um I always tell people

8:42
you know they they'll call me and say

8:43
should I take it at 65 or should I take

8:45
it at 70 and I always say there's no

8:47
good answers just bad sales pitches of

8:48
which I don't do but you have to factor

8:51
in the 60 months of payments that you

8:52
missed if you wait to take it at 70 and

8:55
that's just basic math when people come

8:57
at you with those type of questions

9:00
and there's everyone's situation is

9:02
customizable but what's your general

9:04
response to that type of time value of

9:06
money question so that that is a

9:09
fantastic thing and I'm glad you brought

9:10
it up Stan because it's very important

9:12
for framing and how people think about

9:13
this and what they they they see as lost

9:15
income versus gains and the the first

9:19
thing is I've told to all my economics

9:21
students the best answer for any

9:22
economics question is it depends and you

9:25
sort of brought that up right it depends

9:26
on your status there's not one side

9:28
toits Sol right so the usual general

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rule of thumb I give people is if you

9:33
need the benefits today take them but if

9:34
you can afford to delay delay until you

9:37
need them because again for every year

9:39
you delay Social Security claiming it's

9:41
about an 8% increase in monthly

9:44
benefit and that can go a really long

9:46
way when you need them more in your 80s

9:48
or 90s right and again for for for you

9:50
know the retirement age keeps keeping up

9:52
and it's going to be 67 for you and I

9:54
for example so for someone who waits to

9:56
67 that's what's called the fullow

9:58
retirement age update 70 a 25% increase

10:01
in your monthly benefit amounts just by

10:03
waiting three years where if we take it

10:04
early we're going to basically see a 30%

10:06
reduction benef now you mentioned about

10:09
okay well if you wait from 62 to 67

10:12
that's five years that's 60 months of

10:13
payments you don't get and the sociality

10:16
administration used to do something

10:17
called The Break Even analysis and

10:18
that's sort of what you did is it's I

10:20
think it's 62 I'm getting five more

10:22
years of benefits I could invest that

10:24
amount I could use it at what point do I

10:26
break even and and this is the gain

10:29
versus is loss fing so the agency used

10:31
to tell people if you take benefits at

10:33
age 62 you'll be ahead for 14 years and

10:36
people went wow I'm ahead for 14 years

10:39
and I better start taking benefits at 62

10:41
what they didn't say is if you think

10:43
about that 14 years and you get to 76

10:45
and you live longer you're then behind

10:47
for the rest of your life and that's a

10:50
different way of framing it and so when

10:52
people see the gains versus loss they

10:54
react differently so what I tell people

10:56
is think about your health think about

10:57
your longevity um are you working are

11:00
you enjoying working you have other

11:01
sources of income do you think have a

11:03
401k have a pension sure think about all

11:06
those different sort of variables and

11:07
then make an informed decision but I

11:10
generally tell people to delay claiming

11:11
until they need it there's no benefit in

11:14
delaying past age 70 but if you don't

11:16
need it at 62 delay and again you don't

11:18
have to delay a year you can delay a

11:20
month you can delay a week you can delay

11:21
six months the point is wait until you

11:23
need it because Social Security is the

11:25
best inflation protected annuity out

11:28
there and you really want to make sure

11:30
you make that claiming decision that's

11:31
right for you it's going to be the

11:32
decision you're going to have for the

11:34
rest of your life and it also affects

11:35
your spouse so if you're thinking about

11:37
survivor benefits or spousal benefits

11:39
that's based off the primary record as

11:41
well so the larger your benefit from

11:42
delaying claiming the larger the spouse

11:44
and Survivor benefit will be that's

11:47
that's Dr Jason fitner and Dr Jay to me

11:50
um and he just said what I always say

11:52
which is social security best is the

11:54
best inflation annuity on the planet

11:56
which makes us all laugh when we hear

11:58
people say they hate all annuities which

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is uh kind of you know I was going to I

12:02
was going to make my case Jason for

12:04
being on the board of the alliance for

12:07
Lifetime income because I think the the

12:09
marketing of the annuity industry has

12:11
been horrific I mean I would start the

12:14
conversation is you already own an

12:15
annuity the question is do you need

12:17
another um and we don't do that you know

12:19
the annuity industry is all about growth

12:21
and potential growth and hypothetical

12:23
growth and back tested growth and we

12:25
should be selling the income story all

12:27
day long the transfer risk story and I

12:29
think that the ad is a got milk ad which

12:31
instead of got milk you say you got

12:33
guarantees question mark because all of

12:35
these baby boomers you wrote about it by

12:37
the way people we're gonna have this

12:40
this paper that that Jason um wrote and

12:43
it's called the peak 65 generation we'll

12:45
have a link to it and if you you need to

12:47
read it and it's it's the subtitle is

12:49
creating a new retirement security

12:51
framework and he lays out you know the

12:54
demographic tital wave that I always

12:55
talk about which is you know 10 what is

12:58
it Jason 10,000 Baby Boomers turn to 65

13:00
every day or more than that um and if

13:03
you go to some of the sites like I was

13:05
at one of your sites where it shows how

13:06
many people had turned 65 today and this

13:08
morning it was like 4600 or something

13:11
like that it was great dive in a little

13:13
bit to this paper and why it's so

13:15
important for people to read now the

13:17
people that are listening to this

13:18
podcast they're consumers they're not

13:20
agents or advisers if they are welcome

13:22
you're not invited but welcome to you

13:24
anyway this is for the

13:26
consumer what did you point out in a

13:29
brief synopsis cliffnotes version of

13:31
this paper that people should understand

13:34
so thanks for the for the the bridge to

13:36
that and I think this is a good way to

13:38
start with talking about how you

13:39
mentioned the word annuities and no one

13:40
likes it and that's partly why we

13:41
started writing the paper so when you go

13:43
out and ask people would you like to

13:46
have your own personal pension I would

13:48
love that if you ask them would you like

13:50
a guaranteed paycheck for life I would

13:53
love that do you like an annuity no I

13:55
don't want one of those and this is sort

13:57
of the behavioral distance in

13:59
that people have heard this annuity word

14:01
and they it's the a word they just they

14:03
don't understand what it means but we as

14:05
an industry has we haven't fought back

14:07
Jason we I'm fighting back I'm screaming

14:09
into a hurricane out here but we haven't

14:12
as an industry pulled the money and come

14:15
at these idiots that are framing our

14:18
framing the whole thing incorrectly and

14:20
without facts how do we as an industry

14:23
say you already own one you might hate

14:25
us but you already own one and oh by the

14:28
way you might need another one another

14:30
risk standpoint how do we do that this

14:34
is where well the paper gets into it and

14:35
we also are doing research to try to

14:37
change the framing so one we're talking

14:38
about protected income or guaranteed

14:40
income which is the phrases you use as

14:41
well so by doing these podcast then keep

14:44
doing what you're doing because even

14:45
though you're talking to a hurricane

14:47
eventually that hurricane will die down

14:48
and your voice is GNA get out yeah and

14:50
this and this happened at Social

14:51
Security again that the agency was using

14:54
a break even analysis you talked about

14:55
right claim it 62 you're ahead for 14

14:57
years and when I got to the agency about

15:00
90 90 plus per of financial reporters

15:03
were using the exact same thing as

15:04
telling people that's what they should

15:05
do now if you if you Google Social

15:07
Security claiming it's a complete 180

15:09
everyone says don't use break even it's

15:11
a personal decision make an informed

15:13
choice but you're better off delaying

15:14
until you need it right so we're now on

15:16
this 10year mission to change how we

15:18
talk about protected income right get

15:20
rid of the a word talk about guaranteed

15:22
income talk about protecting income

15:24
retirement talk about what it means to

15:26
have a license to spell retirement

15:29
because people get so concerned they're

15:31
going to run out of money because they

15:33
don't have protected income outside of

15:34
Social Security they don't enjoy their

15:36
retirement or spend as much and so the

15:38
paper the peak 65 paper points out how

15:41
we've sort of changed our retirement

15:42
framework and as you noted 10,000 people

15:45
a day are turning 65 we hit our quote

15:47
unquote Peak 65 moment around 2024 when

15:50
12,000 people a day are are going to be

15:52
turning 65 this is just just huge and it

15:56
and it changes the entire sort of

15:57
framing but how we think about

16:00
retirement and there are people who are

16:03
of course like our our parents and

16:04
grandparents most our grandparents they

16:06
had a pension they Define benefit plan

16:08
they work most of them work for one

16:09
company their entire life maybe two

16:12
right we're changing jobs you're a

16:13
Serial entrepreneur this all changes we

16:16
don't have that pension and if you look

16:18
back historically say before the mid 80s

16:21
people had Social Security and they had

16:22
a pension so they had two sources of

16:25
protected income in retirement those two

16:27
things combined maybe made up up 70% or

16:30
more of their overall income retirement

16:32
now most people just have social

16:33
security as their sole source of

16:35
protected in which is designed to

16:37
replace basically no more than 40% of

16:39
your income on average so there's this

16:41
Gap and part of the reason we wrote the

16:43
paper is to talk about how this changing

16:45
system is is changing the entir

16:47
retirement framework and how do we make

16:49
up that Gap and how do we look to

16:51
protected income products say if Social

16:53
Security is giving you 30 or 40% how do

16:55
you make up that difference to get you

16:56
to 70 and that's not necessarily saying

16:58
that everyone should buy an annuity or

17:00
that everyone should buy something that

17:01
lasts for Lifetime but it may be talking

17:03
about the individual personal

17:06
preferences and differentiation of

17:08
products that can help people have more

17:09
protected income in their retirement

17:12
that could be as a bridge to getting

17:13
them to claim Social Security later it

17:15
could be a delayed annuity that

17:17
basically starts paying out when they're

17:18
older say 85 and they need it more again

17:21
not one size fits all but it's changing

17:23
that conversation and it's also looking

17:25
at what's the role of the employer if

17:27
the employer is doing it a fine benefit

17:29
pension plan for so long and now is

17:31
doing a a fine contribution plan even if

17:33
they're doing a 401k matching or no

17:35
matching it's a 18 180 as far as your

17:37
employer responsibility before it was

17:39
they would basically provide that

17:41
protected income for you in retirement

17:42
yes now they're helping you save you

17:45
retire and they say have a nice

17:46
retirement they don't tell you how do

17:48
you de accumulate this what's the right

17:49
draw down rate what's a good strategy

17:51
you're kind of left on your own and so

17:54
we need to help people figure out how to

17:55
do that that's for protected income what

17:57
kills me Jon is that the annuity

18:01
industry has a monopoly on Lifetime

18:03
income Monopoly we have a monopoly on a

18:05
product that everyone wants and needs

18:07
period somehow we've blown that as an

18:11
industry which which is the why I do

18:13
these podcasts and why I've done 500

18:15
videos on my sty newy man channel why

18:16
I've written seven books and why I keep

18:18
yelling at everybody because it's not

18:21
about Roi I don't know there's no Roi

18:24
until you die as I always say with

18:26
lifetime income um but it feeds into

18:29
what you list in your paper as the the

18:32
changing retirement landscape of which

18:34
you just kind of tiptoed into I don't

18:37
know what the percentage is but I'm

18:38
thinking less than 10% of private

18:40
employers are offering defined benefit

18:42
pensions is that correct yeah it's

18:44
definitely less than that I if you leave

18:46
out state and local government

18:47
government employees or still have them

18:49
you know police officers firefighter you

18:51
know not counting government just

18:54
private sector yeah it's less um and

18:56
it's going away because the liability to

18:59
um you know you see companies are going

19:01
out of business or changing names so

19:03
frequently now you don't have these

19:04
hundred-year companies anymore um maybe

19:07
a university right so if you work for

19:08
you know a university whether it's

19:09
Wisconsin Ohio State Michigan sure

19:11
they're going to be around for a while

19:12
but who knows for sure so you've seen

19:15
companies shift their liabilities to

19:17
these defined contribution plans because

19:19
they paay it in today and they know

19:20
they're done uh and when you're retire

19:22
on your own but the employee is looking

19:25
to the employer for help and looking for

19:27
advice they consider the employer to be

19:29
a trusted source and this is also one

19:31
thing I mentioned in the paper is how do

19:32
we actually help employers help

19:35
employees uh so the bipartisan policy

19:37
Center where I work now and we have what

19:39
a 403b plan so that's a 401k for

19:41
nonprofits sure and and it's done

19:43
through Vanguard and the bip parts and

19:45
polic CER does not give me Financial

19:47
advice but they offer a service in which

19:49
I can talk to somebody at Vanguard or

19:50
somewhere else to get financial advice

19:52
so they're providing me an employee

19:54
benefit so I have a trusted Source I can

19:56
go to to talk to somebody about what's

19:57
the right portfolio allocation should I

19:59
do a Target date fund what does this

20:01
mean for healthare they can answer all

20:03
my questions so the employer provides a

20:05
benefit when they pay a professional

20:06
firm to talk to the employees but that

20:09
gives me something and that's where the

20:10
employer I think now has a role to

20:12
figure out how to help employees not

20:13
just navigate the 401K or 403d

20:16
retirement landscape for the

20:17
accumulation but when they retire how do

20:20
you help them think about again the

20:22
accumulation or spending that retirement

20:24
and what their options are yeah and the

20:25
word decumulation is a is a four-letter

20:28
a better one

20:29
it is just it is just it is horrific but

20:32
my brain's rolling on this I and I want

20:34
to ask you kind of a question that's off

20:36
topic do you ever see a time that the

20:39
government our friends in DC mandate

20:43
which they like

20:44
doing employers providing lifetime

20:47
income do you ever see that so I think

20:51
what's going to happen uh is that the

20:55
consumer industry is starting to shift

20:57
already so for example black rock is

20:59
offering a product where they're going

21:00
to start putting an annuity contracts

21:02
into a Target date fund I see so this

21:05
this gets back into the behavioral

21:06
framing if we're not gonna there's the

21:08
mandates are big that's again they like

21:10
to mandate that's a big sort of stretch

21:12
right now but imagine you start having

21:14
these companies like Black Rock and

21:15
others maybe Fidelity gets involved in

21:16
Vanguard Who start putting in contracts

21:19
into a into a Target date fund and most

21:20
people do Target date funds because it's

21:22
easy they don't have to think about it

21:23
right you invest it changes the

21:25
allocation for you it's you invest and

21:26
forget imagine how part of that

21:28
investment is going to buying annity

21:30
contract so at 55 actually starts

21:32
purchasing and you have then defined

21:33
income in your 401k plan and consumers

21:37
start seeing this in their quarterly and

21:40
annual statements they'll get used to

21:42
seeing that part of their portfolios

21:44
already ear Mar for protected income and

21:47
they're going to want that because

21:48
they're going to see it and they're like

21:49
oh of course I have this Equity I've got

21:51
bonds and then the fixed income is going

21:52
move partly into gued income and I'll

21:55
expect that I retire I think we're going

21:57
to see that happen in next 10 years

21:59
that's going to be the huge D change

22:01
when it comes to employee benefits it's

22:03
still a PR problem to me to me to me

22:06
it's about messaging and marketing um

22:09
and I think that it's just a horrific

22:10
job I know that uh I believe it's the

22:13
the alliance for Lifetime income they

22:14
spun of The Rolling Stones which is

22:15
fantastic you know we can get the

22:17
t-shirt and all but I think that's a

22:18
colossal waste of money my opinion um

22:21
that's great that that Mick and the

22:22
stones are still hammering it out and

22:24
they're in their 70s I like that but it

22:26
seems like an ego play for me I know

22:28
that I would would not be welcomed at

22:29
the board meeting but they need to

22:30
listen to what I have to say this needs

22:33
to be a ground this needs to be a

22:36
television campaign an ad campaign a

22:39
print campaign that's all coordinated to

22:43
speaking in English about lifetime

22:46
income what you call protected income

22:48
what I call income as long as you're

22:49
breathing I really think it needs to be

22:51
dumbed down to a third grade level no

22:54
offense to third graders so that people

22:57
understand that when you go into chapter

22:59
two of your life you better start

23:02
looking at lifetime income products and

23:05
there's only one category and that is

23:07
the the annuity category the other thing

23:08
that I think is is tragic and I'm on the

23:11
you know I I get calls every day and I'm

23:13
in the I'm in the field here people

23:17
think that when you buy an annuity for

23:18
Lifetime income and you die the money

23:20
goes poof I think and of course that's

23:22
not true you can structure it so that

23:24
100% of the money goes to the

23:25
beneficiaries but the reason I'm

23:26
stepping on the subbox a little bit

23:29
is I'm talking to a lot of really smart

23:31
people on my podcast we need to bring it

23:34
way way way down in order to tell the

23:37
public that with all these 401K

23:39
trillions of 401k assets that there's

23:41
really only one choice for Lifetime

23:44
income and it's the

23:45
annuity um it's the annuity category and

23:48
there's four different types of

23:49
annuities for Lifetime income but I

23:53
digress are you as frustrated as I am on

23:56
the messaging of a of a monopoly

23:58
product like and I guess that's the

24:00
reason you're you're out here and

24:01
speaking but are you just kind of

24:03
scratching your head as well to the

24:05
messaging of all this so I am cautiously

24:08
optimistic that we're making progress

24:10
and the reason is because people re like

24:12
you and others recognize that there is a

24:13
marketing problem and and you know again

24:16
we're not here to promote any specific

24:17
product but I will promote a I will

24:19
promote a pamphlet that I help create

24:21
the Social Security Administration so

24:22
it's a government pamphlet if people

24:24
just Google when to start receiving

24:26
Social Security benefits um there'll be

24:29
a two page it's a double-sided one pager

24:30
so it's two pages of your so what he

24:32
said was when to start receiving Social

24:34
Security benefits

24:36
Network well but 95% 95% of the people

24:39
didn't see that because they're on

24:40
podcast so what he did what he held up

24:42
is what you're actually going to

24:44
print um but we'll give you a link I'll

24:47
send you a link to it defit have his

24:49
link on on his page on the on the

24:51
annuity man.com but that's that's the

24:54
Social Security part of the here's the

24:57
point yes here's the point St we spent a

24:59
lot of time trying to talk about the

25:01
claiming decision and get it down to two

25:04
pages again a double-sided one-page

25:05
flyer we could hand my mother anyone in

25:08
field office these are now available in

25:10
every field office in Social Security

25:11
Administration got it we need to do that

25:13
now to what you're saying the marketing

25:15
for nity products as the add onto Social

25:17
Security we've got to get it down to two

25:19
pages it's got to be something that

25:20
everyone can understand and and the

25:22
challenge now is how do we do that in a

25:24
way where the industry adopts it because

25:26
this is also competition and I think the

25:29
thing that's been frustrating for me is

25:31
that the industry if you will you said

25:33
they have a monopoly on these products

25:35
they all agree we need to move forward

25:37
but they also want to compete and so you

25:38
have to sort of say well if you the more

25:40
you compete the lower the fees come the

25:42
more it becomes beneficial to the

25:43
consumers and the better the products

25:45
gonna be and they'll want more the

25:46
products I mean it's business 101 that's

25:48
how do this love it bring you know

25:50
squeeze the fees bring them down you

25:53
know let's be transparent about it and

25:55
let's commoditize these products like

25:56
that that's the problem J is that you

25:59
have XYZ insurance company and ABC

26:01
insurance company and they both are

26:03
selling commodity type products based on

26:06
life insurance I mean life expectancy

26:07
mortality credits for Lifetime income

26:09
and theirs pounding the table that ours

26:11
is better that's tough it is but here

26:15
here's what I think is also where I'm

26:16
cautiously optimistic it it took me

26:18
several years at Social Security to

26:20
change the framing i' I've been at this

26:22
now just for a year or two and I took

26:23
over helping run the retirement inome

26:25
Institute in March so I figure I've got

26:27
basically this this fiveyear plan which

26:29
I will sort of change my goal is to

26:31
change this Framing and narrative around

26:32
how we talked about protected income IR

26:35
income however the phrase you want to

26:36
use and I also think we're going to see

26:38
more products like black rock is doing

26:40
tiia has a great one too which they call

26:42
a trial annuity and the aw in there but

26:45
the whole point is people you mentioned

26:47
they're afraid of giving up money and

26:48
then getting hit by a bus the next day

26:50
so what happens if you offer a product

26:51
that says we're gonna we're going to

26:53
basically sell you a lifetime annuity

26:56
but you have two years to change your

26:59
mind we're going to start giving you

27:00
this monthly payment right now so you

27:02
get the benefit of it you'll see how

27:04
much you enjoy it but if within two

27:05
years you decide it's not for you you

27:06
can get the rest of your money back if

27:08
you do like it we'll figure the default

27:10
is to continue after two years that gets

27:12
over that hurdle people have about I

27:13
have to surrender how much money to get

27:16
a little bit less of monthly income it

27:18
gives them that out we're going to see

27:19
more product differentiation and more

27:21
entrepreneurial spirit in the products

27:23
because I think with the secure act

27:25
passing and maybe secure act 2.0 coming

27:26
down in Congress it's going to give some

27:28
more flexibility for employers to start

27:30
talking about it offer these products

27:31
and their defined contribution plans and

27:34
we've already started seeing this again

27:35
you're out there Stan I'm out there we

27:37
are now seeing the narrative change in

27:39
the media right the same way the

27:41
financial media change they're talk

27:42
about break even and Social Security

27:44
claiming and now delay claiming it or

27:45
take it until you need it I think

27:47
they're going to start talking about the

27:48
need for additional protected income on

27:50
top of Social Security but saying it's

27:53
not one size fits all there are many

27:55
products talk to a professional think

27:57
about your options

27:58
talk to your employer but it's not going

28:00
to be annuities are bad it's going to be

28:02
you need something else now talk to

28:04
somebody and figure out what that is and

28:06
I think that's the framing we're trying

28:07
to change and we're making progress I'm

28:08
seeing that now in the Press talking to

28:10
you now as another example I think in

28:12
five years we're going to get there and

28:14
I'm and I think the industry is going to

28:15
come along with it because there's just

28:16
GNA be a demand well the consumer is

28:18
going to drag everyone Kicking and

28:19
Screaming across the Finish Line period

28:21
because people always ask well you know

28:23
interest rates are so low and all that

28:25
crap and I'm like listen you don't get

28:27
it nobody gets I I was on the phone with

28:29
a with a uh um a reporter the other day

28:32
and they just were all about interest

28:33
rates to the point where I just started

28:35
yelling into the phone I'm like you

28:36
don't get it it's about life expectant

28:39
it's about mortality credits it's about

28:41
risking P risking uh pool risking

28:43
risking everybody putting everybody in

28:45
one big basket at age 65 or 57 or

28:48
whatever and sharing in that risk for

28:50
Lifetime income and I know that people

28:53
like M meski are talking about ton times

28:55
and things like that but I think we're

28:56
going down the rabbit hole I think need

28:58
to make sure that we're talking about

29:00
English to people um and in a Raging

29:02
Bull Market of which we're in it's kind

29:04
of tough to get people off the um you

29:06
know off the focus of markets markets

29:08
markets but me and you have been around

29:09
long enough to see you know markets

29:12
adjust quote unquote and we'll have

29:15
those same adjustments again what I tell

29:16
people though is what when you're at lap

29:18
three of lap four of chapter one going

29:21
into chapter two you don't have time for

29:23
it

29:24
to you know Hiccup and or as they say

29:27
sequence of return risk is and I'd

29:29
rather use the word hiccup because

29:30
people understand it um one of the

29:34
things that you pointed out also it kind

29:36
of a postcript to your your paper which

29:38
I thought was interesting was you just

29:41
kind of posed the question why don't

29:43
people buy annuities why don't people

29:45
buy more annuities right now what is

29:47
that answer in your

29:49
mind this goes back to what the you know

29:51
you said it's a postcript for for anyone

29:53
who downloads a paper it sort of put it

29:54
as an appendex because it was considered

29:56
sort of two pointy had two point headed

29:58
academic you to put in the paper itself

30:00
okay but it talks about what economists

30:02
call the annuity puzzle which you know

30:04
from a financial perspective from your

30:06
perspective mine it makes perfectly

30:08
rational sense for people to have

30:10
annuities even on top of so um it gives

30:13
you a license to spend it guarantees

30:15
income avoids Market risk it avoids

30:17
political risk you know the sequence of

30:19
return risk everything you mentioned are

30:21
great everyone should have them but

30:23
people don't and and part of that is

30:25
just behavioral thing again we talked

30:26
about earlier you want to personal

30:28
pension yes you want a monthly paycheck

30:30
for Life yes I'd love that very much

30:32
thank you you want a nudy no I don't and

30:34
I think there's this behavioral

30:36
cognitive distance of whatever nity is

30:38
and people just heard for so long that

30:39
maybe it's just it's a bad product the

30:41
fees are too high there's concerned

30:43
they're not going to get paid or they're

30:44
concern to get hit by a bus and we have

30:46
to change that narrative um to talk

30:49
about what it actually is and how it can

30:51
help people and I think there's also

30:53
again this additional framing for people

30:55
psychologically we have now trained

30:57
people to think about investing right

31:00
return on investment you mentioned this

31:02
earlier what's the ROI we're all

31:04
thinking about how do I maximize return

31:06
that's what we're conditioned to do from

31:07
the time someone taught me money until

31:10
even today but now I'm talking about

31:12
retirement in retirement I'm not trying

31:14
to maximize return I'm trying to

31:16
minimize risk I'm trying to ensure with

31:19
an E that I have enough income on a

31:21
monthly basis to last the rest of my

31:23
life with the spending I want to do so

31:26
what I really need now is a licensed

31:27
spend and if someone tells you don't

31:29
worry about geared income products just

31:31
do a 4% draw down on your 401k plan your

31:34
assets you mention the idea of a hiccup

31:37
a 4% rule might work if there's a once

31:40
in a generation Market dip that happens

31:42
right before you die but if that once in

31:45
a generation market decline of 20 30 40%

31:48
happens the year after you retired the

31:49
year before you retire you're losing

31:51
that ability to have that comfortable

31:53
income and that spending and retirement

31:55
we're just looking at a pandemic we're

31:56
coming out of with a 8 financial crash

31:59
we've had two 100e crashes in my

32:02
lifetime already in the past 20 years so

32:04
I think what we need to do is start

32:05
talking about not what it means to

32:07
maximize return in retirement how to

32:10
minimize risk and and that's where you

32:12
start showing where protected income

32:14
along with social secuity is protected

32:16
can help people spend more and be more

32:18
comfortable than if they start doing

32:20
some of these draw down strategies like

32:22
a 4 perent rle well and the 4 perent

32:23
rule I mean white fou was on a recent

32:25
podcast with me and just completely

32:26
destroys that I mean you know he he

32:29
actually did the research in the 4% Rule

32:30
and it's it's complete garbage and and

32:32
and outdated um but I do think what's

32:36
happening right now in the industry are

32:38
the the Brokers the bankers and the you

32:40
know where I used to work Morgan Stanley

32:41
what pain Weber UBS all those places are

32:43
starting to sell annuities but they're

32:45
not selling they're not they're selling

32:46
the growth story they're selling the

32:48
potential story they're really not

32:49
selling the income story because that

32:52
they can't charge a fee on that okay and

32:55
and I think that yes sales have gone up

32:58
but sales have gone up on the products

32:59
that in my opinion should be not at the

33:03
top of the sales chart the top of the

33:05
sales chart should be the simplistic

33:07
lifetime income products the personal

33:09
pension annuities I actually think if

33:11
you did a study and you use the word

33:13
personal pension in front of annuity you

33:15
could say personal pension damn annuity

33:17
and people like yes I love that as long

33:19
as you said personal pension you could

33:21
say anything after that and use the word

33:23
annuity uh you could say personal

33:25
pension mother-in-law annuity they'd

33:27
still love it because it said personal

33:28
pension I just think that it to me if I

33:32
was Zar for the day of the annuity

33:34
industry first of all that'd be a lot of

33:35
fun Jason you know that it'd be great

33:38
but if I was Zar for the DAT this is so

33:41
simple this is so simple I just think

33:43
people we're getting the way in the way

33:45
of ourselves as an industry and the push

33:47
back from the industry itself is is kind

33:49
of the whisper yeah we know we're a

33:51
commoditized product but don't tell

33:53
anybody because that doesn't make that

33:55
doesn't make our logo as good um I I

33:58
think there G there's going to have to

33:59
come a meeting of the minds that says

34:02
okay for the for for sales to Triple on

34:06
the on in in the consumer's favor not

34:08
because the industry wants it to Triple

34:10
because there's so many people that want

34:12
guarantees they're going we as an

34:14
industry going to have to and carriers

34:16
going to have to come to the conclusion

34:17
that it's going to be competitive and

34:20
and it's good for the consumer same

34:22
thing happened with when the

34:24
commoditization of buying stocks and

34:25
mutual funds online and direct same same

34:27
type of thing you know my company we're

34:29
trying to with a handful of others

34:31
trying to get in front of that but I

34:33
just think that it's right there for us

34:35
as an industry and I'm glad that you're

34:36
out there fighting for us tell us a

34:38
little bit more about what the alliance

34:40
for Lifetime income is doing and and

34:43
what you think they should be doing in

34:45
addition to what they're currently doing

34:47
well you you sort of sort of mentioned

34:49
all things we're working on which is

34:50
sort of changing the messaging and

34:51
Framing and bringing together member

34:52
companies to talk about how we can

34:55
better educate both consumers Financial

34:58
professionals and policy makers on the

35:00
role for protected income uh and what it

35:03
means and again not one size fits all

35:04
it's also talking about where the

35:06
industry needs to change and this is

35:07
bringing together again the same

35:09
industry players who have to compete to

35:11
come together and again they recognize

35:12
that there needs to be changed that the

35:13
industry needs to move forward and

35:15
getting them along to do it and so it's

35:17
a collaborative process and then under

35:19
the alliance lifetime income is the

35:20
retirement income Institute which I help

35:22
lead the research eff and we're doing a

35:24
lot Wade F there study you mentioned we

35:26
fund Wade fou This research Michaela and

35:29
others do survey research I have another

35:31
paper which I'll send you the link for

35:33
just ch with Michaela where we did a

35:35
survey um of of beneficiaries in

35:39
employer plans and basically we found

35:41
that employees beneficiaries do want

35:43
protected income but it also depends on

35:45
how you frame it right if I use the a

35:47
word they don't want it I use protected

35:48
income or pension they love it it's an

35:50
amazing difference so we have Graphics a

35:53
nice pie chart so I'll send that to you

35:54
as well because again it's easy for

35:55
someone to read and can post it on the

35:57
web page page so we're doing all of that

35:59
and we're talking to people like you

36:00
we're talking to journalists again we're

36:03
my goal is to reframe this because it is

36:05
a fantastic way of talking about again

36:07
it's a the insurance companies are the

36:09
only ones providing this benefit and

36:11
it's needed now again it it may not be

36:13
one of things we haven't gotten to we

36:15
keep talk about the idea of a paycheck

36:16
for life but people may not need a

36:19
paycheck for Life maybe what they need

36:21
is a bridge an nudity that gets them

36:22
from age 62 to age 67 or 70 they can

36:26
delay claiming Social Security the

36:27
higher monthly benefit amount and then

36:29
that's what they use made 70 on so you

36:31
don't have to annuitize for life you

36:33
don't have to annuitize all of your

36:34
assets it's could be partial there are a

36:36
lot of options and you don't annuitize

36:39
you don't have to annuitize at all with

36:41
with income Riders so I think I think

36:43
another you know throwing the word

36:44
around annuitizing and all of that it

36:47
all comes down to Lifetime income you

36:49
know whether you want it to be you know

36:50
revocable or irrevocable whether you

36:52
want as I say do you want to control the

36:54
asset or not control the asset which one

36:55
do you want um and instead of

36:57
annuitization so you know I think that

37:00
um you know people always talk about you

37:03
know the travel industry and and you

37:05
know how the travel industry is gone no

37:08
it's not gone it's the annuity industry

37:09
annuity industry is the new travel

37:10
industry where you know most annuities

37:13
are sold 30 mile radius from where the

37:15
the C the agent lives um we're trying to

37:17
upset that apple cart and say no no no

37:19
you can you can just buy the contractual

37:21
guarantees go to my site and run all the

37:22
quotes until your heart's content and

37:24
then make the decision Etc um until as

37:27
it industry we embrac that um I'm not

37:31
sure what's going to happen the other

37:33
thing too is I think as an industry um

37:36
we need to look at at squeezing of

37:38
commissions I know that that's going to

37:39
get me all kinds of hate mail which

37:40
bring it on but it needs I think there's

37:43
a lot of value that needs to be built

37:45
back into um the payouts and the clients

37:48
Etc and all of this I think is going to

37:49
change not because the industry wants it

37:51
to change the consumer is going to

37:52
demand it they really are yeah something

37:55
you bring up and there's sort of two

37:56
points one Financial professionals I did

37:58
a paper you know several years ago we

38:01
looked at whether or not people because

38:03
one of the one of the barriers

38:04
potentially is financial professionals

38:05
who don't want to lose the assets under

38:06
management right buying some sort of

38:08
product right if you think about again

38:11
there's there's not one size fits all

38:13
there's numerous products but what

38:15
people are concerned about retirement is

38:17
running out of money right they don't

38:18
want to run out of money they would love

38:20
to have again they benefit of a pension

38:23
whether it's a pension for life from a

38:25
DB plan or from an annuity type product

38:28
is it gives you this budget constraint

38:29
you know you have X amount of money to

38:31
spend per month and that's guaranteed

38:33
that's not just a psychological benefit

38:35
it's a financial benefit and the

38:37
research we we looked at with a few

38:39
co-authors was looking at the health and

38:41
retirement study and seeing people who

38:42
had these products then we ran

38:44
simulations he said what if someone took

38:46
a partial mization and they had then

38:49
some money to spend they had Social

38:50
Security they left the rest of their

38:52
assets untouched what you found is that

38:54
people spend up to their budget

38:56
constraint that they're not getting

38:57
protected the rest of their assets stay

38:59
those assets continue to grow in

39:00
retirement and they got even more wealth

39:03
over their retirement and that's more

39:04
money under assets under management so

39:06
they come out ahead in both cases and so

39:08
the problem we have now is financial

39:09
professionals are looking somewhat some

39:11
of them not all are looking at the short

39:13
term right I lose this money today if I

39:15
get a client to buy an annuity product

39:17
they don't think about the longterm out

39:19
well if I give them an annuity product

39:20
they have this bundle that they're not

39:22
spending which for the next 20 plus

39:24
years will continue to grow that they'll

39:26
then manage and make fees off

39:27
so you've got to think about this

39:29
holistically and and that's where we

39:31
also need to start having discussions

39:32
with consumers and with than

39:34
professionals about think about this

39:35
holistically not just we snapshot in

39:37
time yeah and I tell the consumer all

39:39
the time if you have your income floor

39:41
in place whatever that means to you

39:42
Social Security annuity pension dividend

39:45
income side hustle whatever that is

39:46
coming in if you have that income FL

39:48
floor in place you will be a better

39:50
investor period and when the banks and

39:52
the brokerage firms bring me in to speak

39:53
to their their Masters of the Universe

39:55
after they stop throwing things and

39:57
booing me I'll say listen to me if you

40:00
put in that guaranteed income floor

40:02
using the a word you're going to be a

40:04
better investment adviser because you

40:05
don't have to disrupt uh any type of

40:07
Holdings and your clients are going to

40:09
be happy and they're going to be

40:11
stickier from the standpoint of them

40:12
staying at your firm and when I tell

40:15
people that and they listen they

40:16
understand it I've been where those

40:18
people are sitting at UBS pay morg

40:20
Stanley Dean W I understand that that

40:22
message wasn't there when I was there

40:24
but it should be there now and I applaud

40:26
you guys for at least going going after

40:27
those what I call Masters of the

40:29
Universe advisers that that think that

40:32
everything goes up in value because

40:33
that's all they've seen I always say

40:35
that I have cowboy boots older than most

40:36
financial advisers they've never really

40:38
seen a down market and things like that

40:40
so tell me um what is your prediction

40:45
you've kind of given prediction of a

40:46
little bit more consumer friendly

40:48
friendly

40:49
products um do you have any more

40:51
predictions that most people aren't

40:53
aware of going forward with the annuity

40:56
industry are there some danger zones

40:58
that we need to be aware of well the the

41:01
danger zone is complacency so I I think

41:03
we need to really keep having these

41:05
conversations about Framing and

41:07
education and what the products are and

41:08
what they mean and how they can have

41:10
people have but uh you know Michael F

41:13
and David Blanchet called license spend

41:15
and we've got to change that framing

41:16
away from investment Framing and start

41:18
talking about the guaranteed spending

41:20
the guaranteed income and what that

41:22
means for minimizing risk and having a

41:24
Secure Retirement right I my fear is

41:26
that we let off on that um that's one I

41:29
think from the prediction standpoint you

41:31
know the alliance lifetime income myself

41:33
you we're all committed to this I mean

41:34
they the the one thing about retirement

41:37
I'm a tax Economist by training no one

41:39
in the right mind grows up wanting to be

41:40
a tax Economist You Gotta Be You didn't

41:42
wake up in the morning and go you know

41:43
what it's kind of like five years old

41:46
Stan I want to be a taxon see I didn't

41:48
wake up in the morning one day and say

41:49
you know what I want to be Stan the nity

41:51
Man new the the financial curse word

41:53
that's what I want to be nobody does

41:56
that I don't know it's passion

41:59
ofis I know but this but I what I

42:01
realize Social Security is we have the

42:05
potential to help millions of Americans

42:09
have a financially secure retirement I

42:11
mean what other job can you go to where

42:12
you can help millions of people be

42:14
financially secure and had a dignified

42:15
retirement that's just an amazing sort

42:18
of job to have and I was committed to

42:20
doing that at Social Security when I

42:21
left Social Security and started doing

42:22
retirement policy further on the private

42:24
side I now see this as the next major

42:26
step and so I'm committed to getting it

42:28
done changing the way that we talk about

42:30
proed income products having them be

42:33
part of a defined contribution plan

42:35
whether it's a Target date fund or

42:36
something else so employers are

42:37
comfortable talking about it working

42:39
with Congress and policy makers to make

42:40
sure we get rid of whatever barriers and

42:42
legal hurdles are there so employers

42:44
don't feel like they're going to get

42:45
sued for everything but still having

42:47
Protections in place for consumers so

42:49
that's that's sort of where I think

42:50
we're going in the next 5 10 years and I

42:52
think we're going to get there because I

42:54
wasn't having these conversations stand

42:55
10 years ago and having them today

42:58
frequently so it it it is changing and

43:01
the last thing I think we're going to

43:02
have to start doing and this is where I

43:03
think it's also a

43:04
problem there you know you start talking

43:06
about how we you know smart people come

43:08
on the show I'm also smart enough to

43:10
know I don't have all the answers and I

43:11
need help from people like on your show

43:13
and others to talk about how we can make

43:14
changes one of this is this topic of

43:17
insurance right an annuity is an

43:19
insurance product no one likes to talk

43:21
about insurance because you know as an

43:23
economist for talk we're told that

43:25
insurance is for Adverse Events

43:27
low probability high cost bad things

43:30
house you know gets broken into house

43:31
burns down you get sick car accident

43:34
life insurance you di what do you want

43:37
to sell me something for insurance

43:38
that's a bad thing there's contracts

43:41
that people that they don't want to do

43:42
that but if you use the two words

43:44
lifetime if you use lifetime income

43:45
Insurance in front of it or retirement

43:47
income Insurance in front of it you know

43:49
I'm with you do that you're you're there

43:52
because people do understand that and I

43:54
will say this that until the consumer is

43:58
beating down the doors of the advisers

44:01
for Lifetime income then the industry

44:03
has not done their job it's got to be

44:06
it's got to be a push not a pull and and

44:09
right now I feel like the industry is

44:10
pulling and we need to be pushing and in

44:13
anybody that comes out we actually have

44:16
to have a war room of which I will be

44:18
the general of that war room Dr J of

44:21
anybody who come who really comes out

44:25
the industry in a non-factual manner

44:27
should be professionally factually

44:30
destroyed um from the standpoint of of

44:33
ads of of everything coming at them and

44:36
and not call them out by name because

44:38
I'm sure their wife is nice and makes a

44:39
very nice peach cobbler but to just say

44:42
listen you can't get away with that

44:43
anymore you can't get away with saying

44:44
all annuities are expensive you can't

44:46
get away with saying that when you die

44:48
the money goes poof you can't get away

44:50
with there's no good Returns on on

44:52
annuities you can't get away with that

44:53
stuff anymore and you certainly can't

44:55
get away with I hate all an ities that

44:57
means you hate all trucks and you hate

44:59
all restaurants and you hate all shoes

45:00
and you're an idiot so we've got to be

45:03
we're a nice industry a bunch of nice

45:05
people I think we need to get a little

45:07
bit more of a chip on our shoulder

45:08
because what we are protecting is the

45:12
lifestyle of 10,000 baby buers hitting

45:14
age 65 you know we talk we hear about

45:17
politicians fighting for the people and

45:18
Fighting For the Working Men and

45:20
fighting for those families honestly we

45:23
have to fight for them and I feel like I

45:25
do that every day I'm sure do as well

45:27
but as an industry there's got to be a

45:29
consistent voice that comes at we are

45:32
here for you for Lifetime income we are

45:34
here for you to transfer risk we are

45:36
here for Lifetime income Insurance

45:39
that's what the annuity industry does

45:41
the and make fun of the a word I just I

45:43
would just have fun with it y'all know

45:45
we're not gonna say the a word oh my

45:46
gosh don't say the a word we might have

45:49
to have fun with it I think the that

45:50
gives me hope to is you know you and I

45:51
are both old enough to remember when

45:54
brokerage firms charged you 100 bucks to

45:57
buy a stock and you had to buy it you

45:58
had to buy it in round lots of 100 right

46:00
so you couldn't buy one share or four

46:01
shares or fractional shares and then you

46:04
started getting the quotequote discount

46:05
brokers right who started coming at

46:07
49.95 for a trade and then it was E

46:10
Trade coming at 1995 and now there no

46:13
such thing as a great a discount broker

46:14
they're all just brokers who lower their

46:16
fees and again they've wrapped into

46:18
something else so they're still making

46:19
money it's but it I think we're going to

46:22
start seeing that happen again with same

46:24
happening with annuity product because

46:26
you're going to start getting the tech

46:27
firms the find the fin techs involved

46:29
you're going to start getting black

46:30
rocks in it now you're going to start

46:31
seeing you know Fidelity and Vanguard

46:34
and pretty soon like you said all a

46:35
sudden they're all going to get into it

46:36
because the consumer going to see it

46:37
being offered in a few places they'll

46:39
start gravitating and the industry is

46:40
going to do it I think we're going to

46:42
see this happen in five to 10 years

46:43
especially if we keep push and I'll tell

46:45
you a great story when I was at Dean

46:46
wter they had a senior VP flying from

46:48
New York and I was working at a at a

46:49
satellite office he said uh don't worry

46:51
about this direct uh stock purchase you

46:53
know for $8 it's not going to affect us

46:55
I just raised my hand and said you're an

46:56
idiot straight up um that didn't go over

46:58
well and I didn't stay along at Dean

46:59
wter but um I went onto another firm but

47:02
that's how stupid it is you know I you

47:04
know as as crazy as people might think I

47:07
am and I am very passionate about what I

47:08
do um we're a tech company that sells

47:11
annuities I mean we are literally

47:12
fintech we we have structured it so that

47:15
you could do all your quotes and see

47:16
everything on and everything's done you

47:18
know virtually Etc that's where it is

47:20
headed there's a handful of us out here

47:22
but I remember when I first started this

47:24
and I got this wild hair to do this I'm

47:26
like why wouldn't be sold direct um we

47:28
had to convince the annuity companies to

47:30
have the paperwork signed you know a day

47:32
later when the FedEx arrived they're

47:33
like well why would why would you do

47:34
that why wouldn't you just meet with a

47:35
client that was less than 10 years ago

47:38
so we have made some strides but it is

47:41
going to be um it's got to be a

47:43
concerted effort for all of the smart

47:47
people in the room and the people that

47:48
are a little bit you know out in left

47:50
field like me people say wait a minute

47:52
you're St the annity yeah but I do

47:54
understand this product backwards and

47:56
forwards and I do understand how it fits

47:58
and I'm just confounded every day that

48:01
it's not the number one thing that

48:02
people point to every single time with

48:05
their retirement money and and I think

48:07
maybe in the future it will be it will

48:10
be and you know we certainly all have

48:12
those plans to get that message out and

48:14
I certainly appreciate you um you

48:16
sharing your you know your Insight on

48:19
all of this um kind of to close it up

48:21
because I know you won't believe this

48:22
we've been going forever this is

48:24
fascinating you gotta you got to come

48:25
back on because I want to I want you to

48:27
always weigh in when things are new and

48:29
you want to weigh in on something but

48:30
what kind of parting words do you have

48:32
for the consumer out there we have

48:34
thousands and thousands of listeners

48:35
this is growing by Leaps and Bounds um

48:38
what do you have to say to them just

48:40
from an overall standpoint I know you

48:42
covered a lot today the the one obvious

48:45
message is you know retirement is a

48:47
personal decision and and retirement

48:49
does not mean you have to stop working

48:51
uh you can keep working in retirement

48:53
but it means you have to sit down and

48:54
think holistically about your financial

48:56
needs Alles and how you minimize risk

48:58
what does that mean for Social Security

49:00
what does that mean for your portfolio

49:01
what does it mean for additional

49:03
protected income products on top of

49:04
Social Security you need something

49:06
that'll help you delay Social Security

49:07
claiming you need the money today you

49:09
need it when you're potentially 85 might

49:11
have health issues think about this

49:13
holistically don't make a rush or rash

49:16
decision talk to people uh and find a

49:18
good professional to talk to because I

49:20
think that's important to walk through

49:21
options realize one size is not fit all

49:24
um don't be afraid to ask for assistance

49:26
and help but think about it because this

49:28
is one of the most important financial

49:29
decisions you'll make for the rest of

49:31
your life yeah and there are no

49:32
Mulligans in retirement as I say you

49:34
can't put it back on the te and I always

49:36
tell people too there's not an urgency

49:38
to ever buy an annuity of any type the

49:39
urgency is for you to fully understand

49:41
what you're buying both benefits and

49:42
limitations and to make that decision on

49:45
your terms and your time frame and never

49:47
be pressured into it period ladies and

49:50
gentlemen that's Dr Jay also known as

49:53
Jason fitner he is he is an annuity

49:55
Master of the univ for sure you know

49:58
he he he brings a lot to the table and

50:01
we just barely scratch the surface we're

50:02
going to have a a page for him on our

50:04
site at theanu man.com with all of his

50:06
papers and links uh Jason make sure you

50:08
send me all of those we're going to get

50:10
those posted um but I really appreciate

50:13
you being on fun with annuities the no

50:14
one annuity podcast on the planet by

50:16
Leaps and Bounds and growing every day

50:18
and I appreciate everyone listening and

50:20
I will see you next week on fun with

50:23
annuities

50:26
a

50:28
[Music]