Jamie Hopkins: Retirement Planning And The Why That Makes You Cry (TAM Classic)

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities where

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every single week I welcome a celebrity

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guest expert that can help you maximize

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laugh and love every minute of the most

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let's get to

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[Music]

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it welcome to fun with anties I'm your

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host Stan the annuity man America's

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annuity agent and I'm so happy that you

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joined us today welcome to everyone on

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all the major podcast platforms and also

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on the fun with annuities YouTube

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channel as everyone probably already

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knows I have one of the biggest annuity

0:44
channels called on YouTube called Stand

0:46
the annuity man but the fun with

0:47
annuities YouTube channel is is fun as

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well because you get to see me and the

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guests interacting um but welcome let me

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introduce Our Guest so we can get right

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to it because I want to pick his brain

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clean before he gets off of this podcast

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his name is Jamie Hopkins we're going to

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have his um his website and how to get

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in touch with him how to buy his books

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and all that stuff on my site he'll have

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a permanent page on my site uh just like

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all of our celebrity guests he's the

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managing partner of wealth Solutions

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he's a finance Professor uh of practice

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at kraton University's haer College of

1:19
Business he's also nationally recognized

1:22
writer and researcher you might have

1:23
read his stuff in Forbes investment news

1:26
and market watch just to name a few he's

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co-authored three

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textbooks and has two eBooks on

1:32
retirement planning he's also the author

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of a book he wrote in 2018 which I love

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the title rewirement not retirement but

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rewirement the rewiring rewiring the way

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you think about retirement it's a

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fantastic book once again we'll have

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that on our site you can link and buy

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that as well he received his Bachelor of

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Arts degree in political science at

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Davidson College in North Carolina where

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he was Captain of of the division one

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Varsity men's swim team which tells if

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you if you know anything about that

2:00
discipline that kind of tells you who he

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is he attended the villain NOA school of

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law where he earned his JD and grad and

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graduated there with honors he also went

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to Temple University there in

2:10
Philadelphia as well for his llm and for

2:14
financial planning designations my new

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nickname for Jamie is the future I'm

2:20
gonna call him Jamie the future Hopkins

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because he is the new face and voice of

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retirement income planning in my opinion

2:27
and the reason I can do that if they can

2:28
call LeBron James the king then Jamie

2:32
Hopkins can no doubt be called the

2:34
future welcome to fun with annuities

2:36
Jamie

2:38
Hopkins I love that man the future I

2:41
like it it's uh I I don't know if I feel

2:43
that way personally but it's a that is a

2:45
strong

2:46
introduction let me just tell all of the

2:48
people that are listening out there and

2:50
the ones that are viewing viewing this

2:52
you just probably fainted because

2:53
Jamie's young that's the reason I call

2:55
him the future he's been voted you know

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top dude under 40 top dude under 30 you

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know every time he'll be top dude under

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50 he's that guy but let's talk a little

3:05
bit about basketball first Jamie because

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if you don't know this I put myself

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through college playing basketball

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played at the University of Central

3:13
Florida but uh Davidson College I grew

3:16
up in the Charlotte area my parents

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actually lived in the Davidson area and

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for anyone that cares about basketball

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that's where Steph Curry

3:23
played um so you know we we got some

3:26
Davidson stuff there and I was looking

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through your podcast where you actually

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interviewed Bob mckillop which I thought

3:31
was cool who was actually a a thought

3:33
leader and could if he ran a business

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it'd be a good one um but also um food

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for thought my dad used to coach at

3:41
appalachin State a long time ago ah yeah

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so I don't I don't know if they're in

3:46
all the same leagues anymore um I think

3:48
they but they were they they when I was

3:50
at school there we played them in almost

3:52
everything yeah and uh you know I think

3:54
Davidson has since switched leagues for

3:56
some things not everything but some

3:58
things they've moved out basketball

4:00
right they they shifted leagues but Bob

4:02
mckz I mean he's a he was there when I

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was there he's been there a long time at

4:05
Davidson his his kids have gone through

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the program they were there when I was

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there and yeah we I had the pleasure of

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having him on uh our show framework and

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uh you know it's he's just as you said

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if he was a business owner he would run

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a very good business he's a he's a great

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leader of people and that's one of the

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things I remembered from being there and

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just being around him and it's a tiny

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school right if you're from the

4:26
Charlotte area or even know anything

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about it when I was there only like

4:30
1450 uh you know college students I

4:33
think it's up to 1,800 to 2,000 now so

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it's grown a lot and it's still a tiny

4:37
school but Curry was a a freshman when I

4:39
was a senior I I did get to meet him I

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played some pickups games with him I

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mean reality is I was in the the

4:45
training room injured a lot uh you know

4:47
when they're all getting taped up but it

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was funny like we didn't know him as

4:50
Steph Curry then you knew him as Dell

4:51
Curry's kid and that's a really funny

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thing to look back upon now that Del

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Curry was a great player so we didn't

4:57
know who he was but not because he was

5:00
supposed to be famous cuz his dad was

5:02
famous I know but I know the story

5:04
changed after that well let's segue from

5:07
that into finances I know that's going

5:09
to be interesting but but watch this

5:10
pivot how did your your sports

5:12
background your discipline as a swimmer

5:14
play into the success of you achieving

5:17
what you have so far in the world of

5:19
finance and retirement income planning

5:21
is there a correlation there there is

5:24
and I I I you don't know it when you're

5:26
going through Sports exactly that the

5:28
lessons you're learning are going to pay

5:30
dividends later on in life we already

5:32
talked about one great coach now

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obviously I didn't play for Coach

5:35
mckillop but I I did get to spend time

5:37
with him I also swam as you brought up

5:40
in Baltimore growing up and I swam on a

5:42
team North Baltimore aquatic club nbac

5:44
talking about another great athlete uh

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Michael Phelps and I grew up together

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we're a month apart in age we were on

5:50
the same team in same practices same

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Lane for almost 15 years uh so uh coach

5:57
Bob Bowman who's been I think four or

5:59
five time Olympic head coach was my

6:01
coach growing up and I still talk to him

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uh you know I text with him fairly

6:05
frequently and uh you know he taught me

6:08
a lot just about being a better person

6:11
and being disciplined and being willing

6:12
to put in the work when it's not fun

6:14
doing the extra things going from good

6:16
to Great you know working on Sundays

6:19
when your competitors are sitting at

6:20
home right training differently than

6:23
other people are training so you know we

6:25
moved away from a lot of static

6:27
stretching back in the day before that

6:29
was popular and I always tell people the

6:30
story like think back about the NFL in

6:32
the 90s and they had those big circles

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and they all been pulling on their legs

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and what we found out is that type of

6:37
stretching increased injury we moved

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away from that back in the 90s so if it

6:41
people can visually remember Michael

6:43
stretching completely different right

6:45
flapping his arms swinging him around

6:47
and that all came from that and Michael

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never really got kind of seriously

6:51
injured throughout his entire career and

6:53
that helped him achieve a level of

6:55
greatness that others weren't able to

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achieve and a lot of those things came

6:59
into me during my life that looking at

7:01
the little things putting in that extra

7:02
bit of work because a lot of people are

7:04
pretty good at stuff not a lot of people

7:06
are great at things and that's where

7:08
that difference is right you could be

7:10
pretty good and I often ask people in a

7:12
room right oh you how do how do you feel

7:14
about this are you pretty good yeah

7:16
people kind of Nod are you great at it

7:17
and a lot of people stop short of that

7:19
right um that greatness is a different

7:21
level of commitment and a lot of it's

7:24
mental right it's not just physical I've

7:26
talked about this many times before I

7:28
don't know if everyone agrees with me

7:29
anymore but you know physically I used

7:31
to tell people Michael wasn't the most

7:33
talented swimmer I ever swam with he's

7:35
clearly the greatest and it's not even

7:36
close um sure but he wasn't the mo

7:39
physically most talented that I

7:40
personally believe I ever swam with I

7:42
could be wrong about that but uh you

7:44
know he did all those extra little

7:45
things that other people weren't doing

7:47
so it was a mix of talent and having the

7:50
right coach the right opportunity and

7:52
the drive and and being willing to do it

7:54
when other people weren't and swimming's

7:56
a tough sport mentally it it's not easy

7:58
cuz you're alone you're looking had a

7:59
black line and going back and forth well

8:03
those those extra little things you know

8:04
stretching differently and those type of

8:06
things what are some examples that when

8:08
you look at retirement income and you

8:09
started getting into this and and

8:11
digging in and writing the books and and

8:14
doing what you do what were the things

8:16
that you started to to see that were

8:18
missing that you needed to adopt and you

8:20
were going to tell people from a client

8:23
standpoint that they needed to adopt

8:26
yeah and we can start with some little

8:27
things and move up from there I there

8:30
there's amazingly small things that have

8:32
a big impact which is just you know did

8:34
you think about you know your Medicare

8:36
and I'm going through that with somebody

8:38
right now uh and just you know making a

8:40
better decision around Medicare not just

8:43
enrolling and trying to avoid premiums

8:45
but actually sitting down and running it

8:47
and looking at what prescription drugs

8:49
you have and are those covered and those

8:51
are small things but they can add up a

8:53
lot and and in every area of retirement

8:55
that exists too right are you living in

8:57
the right house or are you just living

8:59
there because because you've always

8:59
lived there and it's way too big it's

9:01
got six bedrooms and it's tough to keep

9:02
up and you're not even really happy

9:04
there anymore so thinking about your

9:06
home equity and and what are ways to

9:08
leverage that or even spend it down at

9:11
some point in your life or is that your

9:13
legacy asset and those are you know you

9:15
would think that those are pretty basic

9:17
conversations you should have people

9:19
weren't having them the other one

9:21
long-term care this is a really basic

9:22
one a lot of people are like oh my

9:24
family will help or my kids will be my

9:26
executive and I'm always like have you

9:27
even asked them did you take the time to

9:30
just ask your kidss do they want to be

9:32
the your executive do they want to help

9:34
with your care and the answer is

9:36
probably yes you're you're probably

9:37
write if you're writing it down to

9:38
assume it but you have you ask the

9:40
question and put them on notice and have

9:42
that conversation and those are little

9:44
things and all those things add up and

9:46
then what you see is you know if people

9:47
aren't living the retirement and not

9:49
having the confidence that they

9:50
otherwise would want and end of the day

9:52
you know I've shifted my mental thinking

9:54
about retirement a lot on this I used to

9:56
be more of a you know think about things

9:58
in the and those and the numbers and you

10:01
know is it optimal and you'll hear that

10:03
on the you know on the researcher side

10:05
and I've been in been a professor now

10:07
for 15 years and a lot of my fellow

10:10
researchers talks about optimal

10:11
retirement spend down strategies and

10:13
what I learned is most people don't care

10:14
about optimal you know if you had a less

10:17
optimal retirement but they were happier

10:19
did you do your job and I think the

10:20
answer is probably yes like if you told

10:22
me I'd have no more money but I'd be the

10:23
happiest person alive for the rest of my

10:25
life I would make that trade any second

10:27
of the day right I mean it's an easy one

10:29
so I think a lot of it gets back to how

10:31
do we increase people's satisfaction the

10:33
return on sleep R which I I like that

10:36
terminology turn on sleep yeah forget

10:39
Roi is R

10:42
interesting I agree with that yeah well

10:45
as I said if you you ask somebody right

10:46
would you give up all the money and all

10:48
the stuff you have if you were happy for

10:49
the rest of your life and I think

10:50
everyone most people's answer is yes

10:52
right so that's really what we're aiming

10:54
for right dollars aren't really all that

10:56
important in of themselves is what do

10:58
they allow us to accom and do right

11:00
there a means to an end I mean that's

11:01
why you know dollars and monetary things

11:04
were created not in and of themselves

11:06
but to accomplish other

11:08
goals the that answer is an easy answer

11:11
for people yes I'd love to be happy but

11:13
it's also a scary answer it's also

11:15
falling off a cliff a little bit for

11:16
people because it takes them out of

11:17
their comfort zone how do you transition

11:20
or help people transition from them

11:23
nodding their head when you say would

11:25
you give it all up to live a better life

11:27
to finding that happy medium where they

11:28
can meet you in the middle and go live

11:30
that

11:31
life this is a challenge for people

11:33
heading into retirement I'm going very

11:35
simple about this and it's because of

11:37
how we're you know conditioned it's how

11:39
we're trained it's how we're educated so

11:41
I I talk about this which in in the book

11:44
but I actually kind of learned some of

11:46
this after I wrote the first edition of

11:48
the book which was just think about what

11:50
we do during our working years and you

11:52
just have to stop sometime and and put

11:54
it down and all we're taught is save

11:57
we're taught to put money aside we're t

11:59
Tau the budget which is really usually a

12:01
form of making sure that we're saving

12:03
enough right that we're not overspending

12:05
we're not taught to spend down assets

12:08
until we get to retirement and then I'd

12:10
argue right we're not really taught it

12:11
we're not even conditioned we're just

12:12
told hey Now's the Time to spend down so

12:14
we spend our entire lives working 30

12:16
years really just hoping the account

12:18
goes up right we we log into our bank to

12:21
make sure it went up and that's really

12:22
all we care about right there's been

12:24
some studies from places internally I

12:26
think Wells Fargo said like 80 80 some

12:28
percent of people Only log in to their

12:30
account to make sure the money is there

12:32
it's the only reason they log in so you

12:34
look at something like that like that's

12:35
what we're doing we just want to see it

12:36
go up you know even return on investment

12:38
I know people might Care at the end of

12:40
the year but throughout the year we just

12:41
want to make sure the money's not gone

12:43
and so we're taught our whole lives to

12:45
look at this thing going up and to save

12:47
and put money aside and then one day we

12:48
retire very few people phase into

12:50
retirement and now somehow we're just

12:52
supposed to magically do something

12:54
completely different than it did for the

12:55
last 30 years honestly it doesn't make

12:58
any sense to believe people are going to

12:59
be good at that right if I tell you to

13:01
do something for 30 years you do it for

13:03
30 years then the next day I say well

13:04
now you need to do the opposite of

13:06
that you just told me to only learn one

13:08
thing for 30 years yeah we teach

13:10
accumulation but at the end of the day

13:12
it's decumulation do you think we need a

13:14
new word for that I mean the the the

13:16
industry sometimes the retirement

13:18
industry annuity industry they start

13:20
speaking in their own language not in

13:22
the consumer's language which I I try to

13:25
speak in English out here with people

13:27
decumulation means nothing to people in

13:30
fact it sounds bad yeah most of the

13:33
thing right actually even spend down

13:35
accumulation they're all they all have

13:37
negative connotations and I'm actually

13:39
terrible at that as I said I'm an

13:40
academic at hard and I fall into using

13:43
and an attorney right so like we're the

13:44
worst offenders of using our own lingo

13:47
that means nothing to anyone else to

13:48
make ourselves sound smarter uh yeah I I

13:51
don't even know if the term retirement

13:53
is a great term either if you look at

13:55
that from an accounting definition right

13:57
it means essentially that the useful of

13:59
the you know object has

14:01
passed so you know when you send

14:04
something in a retirement it means it

14:05
has no value anymore and and so I don't

14:07
even know if that's a great term but

14:09
that's just so you know the people who

14:10
try to change that term in the sense of

14:12
get rid of it I I think is tough because

14:14
it's it's very ingrain not just in the

14:15
United States but the equivalent of that

14:17
word is used throughout the world so

14:19
it's very hard to change that overnight

14:21
now the income planning versus de

14:23
accumulation spend down that's a little

14:25
bit newer so I I do think that we could

14:28
end up with a a word that's you know or

14:31
a phrase that is better in that space I

14:34
haven't tried to Define that one I mean

14:36
I did Chang mine right rewirement which

14:39
I own the trademark for too which was

14:41
yeah because I was getting ready to call

14:43
my lawyer and say hey let's get that

14:45
it's a it's a it's a good one right and

14:47
yeah I like it and the whole point of

14:49
that was that you know we do need to

14:51
change the way we think about from

14:52
accumulation to decumulation or however

14:54
you want to you know think about it from

14:57
right saving to spending is really what

14:59
I think about right how do we go from a

15:00
saving mindset to a spending mindset

15:03
because that's really what it's about

15:04
right we're saving to achieve some goal

15:06
and then we're spending to achieve some

15:08
goal and you know we're not all going to

15:10
spend the same we don't all have the

15:11
same goals but I'm very much a

15:14
goal-based oriented uh planner if you

15:17
might use that term I I like to set

15:19
goals and aim towards them and there's a

15:20
lot of Behavioral research that supports

15:23
the notion of goal setting and working

15:25
towards something in sight actually

15:27
working back from it is usually better

15:29
so you know but it's not easy and that

15:32
change is fundamentally right opposed to

15:36
how people are wired for their entire

15:38
working career I think that as a

15:41
industry as a profession as a society we

15:43
need to get a lot better at a couple

15:45
things one of them is a really short

15:46
simple one which we're getting close to

15:48
which is just showing people how much

15:49
income they'll have in retirement while

15:51
they're saving that you know that's been

15:53
discussed forever and it it just seems

15:54
like such a beneficial thing that we've

15:56
dragged our feet on for decades now as a

15:59
as a country and now it's coming right

16:01
where we're going to see that statement

16:02
inside the 401K or otherwise but it

16:05
probably took way too

16:07
long you know formal phased retirements

16:10
is a really big one and I think that if

16:12
we can get there that'll be a big

16:14
behavioral one that'll be beneficial is

16:16
this expectation that people are just

16:18
supposed to retire one day they still

16:19
work a full day and the next day they're

16:21
in retirement there there's a lot of

16:23
negatives with that now retirees are on

16:26
the whole

16:27
happier however you have more depressed

16:30
people in retirement than you do of the

16:32
whole population too so even though you

16:34
get more people that move upscale to a

16:36
happy level so it pulls the average up

16:39
the number of people who actually lose

16:41
meaning because their work goes away

16:43
they become more isolated also increases

16:46
and so that's a group that I think gets

16:47
lost because you see a lot of the stats

16:49
say oh retired grandparents are the

16:51
happiest people in the world true but

16:53
then there's this other group that gets

16:54
isolated that we kind of forget about

16:56
because averages tell a terrible story

16:59
and I think that's a big group that

17:01
honestly we need to do better on helping

17:03
them Find meaning sustainable income all

17:05
of those things and they're getting lost

17:07
and I I don't I don't say that we have a

17:10
retirement crisis on our hands but

17:12
individuals obviously have retirement

17:15
crisises on their hands well and with

17:17
the you know there's a demographic tital

17:19
wave that's happening with you know

17:21
10,000 Baby Boomers reaching AG 65 which

17:24
I'm just getting ready to say I'm I call

17:26
that chapter two we can call it deum

17:29
ation or second stage but it's chapter

17:31
two of your life is what I tell people

17:33
and you know being from the south and

17:35
growing up in the South and you you'll

17:36
giggle from this because when you went

17:37
to Davidson you started eating barbecue

17:39
and and and you got that twang in your

17:41
voice right um I always tell people

17:43
there's new there's no U-Hauls behind

17:45
heres and um and if you if you see one

17:48
take a picture what I'm trying to tell

17:50
people is live for the day and and you

17:54
know Co has taught us one thing that

17:56
life is fragile how are you when people

18:00
come to you and and they're they're

18:01
worried about retirement um how are you

18:05
encouraging people to try to live for

18:07
the day even though they've been box

18:08
Checkers and planners and Savers and

18:11
scrippers their whole life that's who's

18:13
listening to this podcast that person

18:14
that has in their world made it to the

18:16
finish line and they've done a heck of a

18:18
job doing it and now it kind of needs to

18:21
be about them how do you make it about

18:24
them you have to start in my view with

18:27
planning and it have to give people

18:30
confidence that where they're going they

18:32
can get there there's a lot of different

18:34
ways to do that it's not one not one way

18:37
but to show people that there's a path

18:40
to where they want to go and and

18:42
Community does that for people in

18:43
certain areas right it's right why

18:45
people join things like churches why

18:47
people join things like AA because they

18:50
want to see that somebody else has done

18:51
it before and you know working with

18:54
professionals can do that because they

18:56
have worked with hundreds or thousands

18:58
or firm might have helped thousands of

18:59
people achieve a better retirement and

19:02
so then all of a sudden you know it's

19:03
possible and then they start showing you

19:05
the steps that you can take to be

19:07
proactive about getting there sometimes

19:09
you know some individuals just need to

19:11
see numbers run and presented back to

19:13
them and say look you actually can spend

19:15
this and here's what the data numbers

19:17
and analytics show on what you can

19:18
actually spend and that you're not going

19:20
to run out of money and you see people

19:23
who you know save save save live their

19:25
whole retirement don't spend anything

19:27
and die with millions of dollars left

19:29
over uh we had one of our advisers

19:31
recently telling us a story about how he

19:33
actually gave one of his clients a new

19:35
jacket because the client was literally

19:36
worth millions of dollars and had worn

19:38
the same jacket for 20 some years right

19:40
now and here's the sad part when he

19:42
passed away they said they were cleaning

19:44
out his home the jacket was still

19:45
wrapped up he never unwrapped the jacket

19:47
it was still in the plastic right

19:48
wouldn't even used something that was

19:50
given to him because he was that

19:52
concerned about running out of money and

19:55
you know those things are you know those

19:57
things are always kind of sad because

19:58
you're probably not living your best

20:00
life you're probably not enjoying things

20:02
to the level that you could and I think

20:04
another big piece is you know health is

20:06
wealth so you know mental health

20:08
physical wealth I think when you brought

20:09
up the covid in this last year and a

20:11
half is you know those are important

20:13
things that you saw people that are not

20:15
here anymore that because their health

20:17
wasn't good or they passed away and no

20:19
matter how much wealth you accumulated

20:21
as you said you don't get to take that

20:23
with you uh you know maybe ancient

20:25
Egyptians believe that but I don't think

20:27
most people do anymore we don't get

20:29
buried with our belongings very often so

20:32
I think part of it is figuring out just

20:33
what do you want to accomplish and I

20:35
always tell people how do you want to

20:36
make those feel that you care about when

20:39
you pass away right how do you want to

20:40
make them feel not what do you want to

20:43
give them but how do you want to make

20:44
them feel do you want them to you know

20:46
say oh you know Mom and Dad they were

20:48
just Penny Pinchers they never spent a

20:49
dollar right is that is that really how

20:51
you want to make them feel when you pass

20:53
away or that you are unplanned for your

20:55
death and I think it's a really

20:56
important question I I State planning

20:59
attorneys don't ask it very much but

21:00
it's a great question to ask yourself

21:02
you know how do you want to make people

21:04
feel when you're gone and uh Daryl green

21:06
so we talked about sports before yeah

21:09
East Coast so Daryl green and I talked

21:10
one time and I actually explain to the

21:13
people who Daryl green is yeah so Daryl

21:15
green is the arguably I mean top three

21:19
uh cornerback ever to play in the

21:20
National Football League maybe the

21:22
fastest person ever in the National

21:23
Football League yep arguably the fastest

21:25
so I think for a good 15 years he was

21:28
something like that he was the fastest

21:29
man in the NFL and they used to race so

21:31
people forget about that but in the late

21:33
80s and 90s they used to actually race

21:35
for that title and uh you know he yeah I

21:38
think he's maybe second or third all

21:41
time from the the clock uh going through

21:43
combine based stuff um he's still up

21:46
there in the top three but played for

21:48
Washington you won a couple Super Bowls

21:50
played under Hall of Fame Coach Joe

21:52
Gibbs who then went on for jgr racing

21:55
and uh he he told me one time too he's

21:57
one of the more humble people I've ever

21:58
met right he's in the Hall of Fame one

22:00
of the top people ever to play the game

22:02
one of the fastest people ever to be

22:03
alive and he's just amazingly humble

22:06
like so humble that you were like like I

22:08
want you to like tell me cool stories

22:10
about you just shutting people down but

22:12
he won't he just talks you know and it's

22:15
amazing because he said I don't want to

22:16
be remembered as a football player he

22:18
goes I want to be remembered as Dale

22:20
green a great man oh and by the way he

22:22
he played football and I thought that

22:24
was such an amazing thing to think about

22:26
right and he he brought that up because

22:28
of Jack Kent cook being a football owner

22:30
and he goes you know I don't I don't

22:31
want to be remembered like that oh you

22:33
had all the but they think about all the

22:34
stuff he must have done in his lifetime

22:36
but he's only remembered for owning a

22:38
team right like it is obviously

22:40
important to him but wouldn't you rather

22:42
be remembered as oh Daryl green a great

22:44
person to know by the way right he was a

22:46
financial adviser right like I I I think

22:49
that's a really cool way to look at

22:51
things right just how you want to be

22:52
remembered and are you going to be

22:53
remembered for the things that that you

22:55
actually want to be remembered for or

22:57
are you going to be remember for things

22:59
that you don't necessarily care as much

23:01
that people look at you about and all

23:03
that you know ties into your retirement

23:05
right how are you going to live your

23:06
life are you going to be giving back or

23:08
are you going to be remembered as the

23:09
person who passed away never spent a

23:10
single dollar never looked happy while

23:12
they did it how does Jamie Hopkins want

23:15
to change the game I I know you're we

23:17
not talking about Legacy but what's your

23:20
drive I mean what you're getting up at

23:22
the morning you're you're you know

23:23
you're a swimmer you get up early right

23:26
uh what's the drive for Jamie Hopkins to

23:28
change things in the retirement income

23:30
planning World which has been static for

23:32
a long long time and you have people

23:34
like you out there and then you have

23:36
really freaky people like me that are

23:38
these these you know these other

23:40
personalities that are trying to tell

23:41
the truth about these things what are

23:43
you trying to do and change in the

23:45
industry or are you I I absolutely am I

23:50
you know I I I have a number tied to it

23:52
but maybe I just need to change it

23:53
there's nothing magical about the number

23:55
but I set out with a just putting it

23:57
down one time said I'd like like to make

23:59
retirement secure for more than a

24:00
million Americans and there's no reason

24:03
it only has to be Americans or that it

24:04
only has to be limited to a million

24:06
people but it it it felt good at the

24:08
beginning the reality is actually you

24:11
know if I could track stuff maybe I've

24:12
already had an impact on a million

24:14
people I don't know but uh the drive

24:16
behind it a very simple uh but also

24:19
complex story which just goes back to my

24:21
family it's personal and I you know

24:24
eight years old I'll do the quick

24:25
version of this but this is this is the

24:28
part my my listeners want to know yeah

24:31
and I'm assuming a lot of your customers

24:32
would be interesting to know and and I

24:34
want to know how you tick so yeah go go

24:37
deep as you want to go yeah so um you

24:39
know I grew up outside Baltimore uh

24:41
neither one of my parents graduated from

24:42
college my dad did Roofing uh gutters

24:46
fascia siding all stuff high up on the

24:48
ladder my mom helped run a business with

24:50
them so that's what they did and I was 8

24:53
years old my dad goes up on a ladder it

24:55
starts to rain temperatures drop and you

24:58
know aluminum ladders freeze over faster

25:00
than a roof does so he's coming down he

25:02
slips Falls and passes away right there

25:05
um you know all of a sudden then my mom

25:07
who you know how old were you Jamie how

25:08
old eight years old so I've got four

25:10
younger sisters I'm eight neither parent

25:12
graduated college no life insurance

25:14
right no Term Policy now this is the you

25:17
know I don't go out and sell insurance

25:18
today I'm I'm not a licensed insurance

25:20
agent okay uh so this is not a sales

25:23
pitch for term but I always tell people

25:25
that's the you know my family I would

25:27
have been better off my mom would have

25:28
been better off and that's the perfect

25:30
example right you got you got you know

25:32
essentially one income earner in the

25:34
sense of right is the one out there

25:37
doing the work now my mom was earning

25:38
income and she still is actually running

25:40
that business today um you know 37 years

25:43
later whatever good for her but right at

25:47
that moment there was no one else to go

25:48
out and do the work right you can't you

25:50
can't make money doing construction if

25:52
nobody can go out and do the work it's

25:54
the perfect person to have term

25:55
insurance you got young kids high-risk

25:57
job you know no college and they didn't

26:00
have that planning that planning didn't

26:01
get to people in the construction world

26:03
right it doesn't really today either the

26:05
industry is not set up to to get advice

26:07
down to people like that that definitely

26:09
need it and even simple pieces of advice

26:11
so you fast forward and you know kind of

26:14
uh I got a lot of great opportunities my

26:16
mom kept working she put us through

26:18
college I got opportunities to get

26:20
scholarships that was a good enough

26:22
swimmer to get a scholarship I wasn't a

26:24
great swimmer uh went to a great school

26:26
though Davidson um got to you know go to

26:29
law school took out a bunch of loans

26:30
like a lot of other people and uh just

26:33
started seeing tv ads and started seeing

26:35
the tv ads and say come do your

26:36
retirement planning here with us and I

26:38
kept thinking what does somebody like my

26:39
mom do who's never had a pension who's

26:41
never had a 401k um you know who didn't

26:44
have an IRA at that time and what do

26:46
they do um they're going to be very

26:47
reliant on Social Security and Medicare

26:49
and their home and you know that's the

26:52
reality of where my mom is today uh but

26:55
you I started seeing that and then I got

26:57
the opportunity to clerk in the appet

26:59
division and one of the cases I got to

27:01
work on was one of Bernie mid cases and

27:04
uh it it showed you the opposite of what

27:06
you would like to see in this profession

27:07
right which that was the abuse of trust

27:10
versus the trusted advisor who is

27:13
actually helping people move forward and

27:15
um you know it just kind of all the

27:17
pieces were starting to click then that

27:19
there there was this huge right you just

27:21
see the data and you said the 10,000

27:22
hitting 65 every day and you saw the

27:25
data you saw these tv ads every time you

27:27
turn on the TV there was a Fidelity or

27:29
other ad on there they did good ads but

27:32
I just knew that there was a gap out

27:33
there and then I um you know I did some

27:35
estate planning work I worked on some

27:37
pension cases I worked in private equity

27:40
and then eventually I got an opportunity

27:42
to kind of shift specifically into the

27:44
income planning field and I spent seven

27:46
years at American college uh with uh my

27:49
sure co-director there David latel

27:51
building out the RP for people who don't

27:53
know that retirement income certified

27:55
professional and over seven years we we

27:58
uh impacted right around 18,000

28:00
financial advisers and agents had went

28:02
through that uh you know college program

28:05
and that's a lot um to put that in

28:07
perspective it was more during that

28:08
stretch than we're going into the cfp so

28:12
but it you know that's not because I'm

28:13
magic or David was magic we were in the

28:15
right space at the right time and

28:17
everyone was saying come work with this

28:19
but nobody was really doing training and

28:21
education and research on it and it's

28:23
it's it's done very well and so it's you

28:25
know if you think about you know I I

28:27
don't know what the numbers are now I've

28:29
been gone for three years and I for

28:32
professorship at kraden and then I

28:34
joined Carson because I actually had

28:36
another Insight my other Insight was I

28:38
had an adviser that went through and he

28:40
came to a presentation later on of mine

28:43
and I was presenting on Roth conversions

28:45
and some tax efficient uh ways to manage

28:47
a retirement income portfolio and I

28:50
think I saw him two years again later I

28:52
think it was two years and he comes up

28:53
to me he goes Jamie did you have that

28:55
slide deck from that presentation two

28:56
years ago I go yeah I could get it too

28:59
he goes yeah there was a lot of stuff I

29:00
wanted to implement from that but never

29:02
really got around to it and I just

29:04
remember thinking like it was depressing

29:06
right there's this person who went

29:07
through this program great he did that

29:09
he showed up to another presentation

29:11
still interested in it but somehow two

29:13
years had passed and he hadn't actually

29:15
taken any of that and put it into

29:17
practice and it was depressing for me

29:19
because I thought you know here I am I'm

29:20
educating I'm I'm helping advisers get

29:22
better and then I realized that unless I

29:24
take another step forward and I'm

29:26
actually able to create the system and

29:28
the processes that help them implement

29:30
this with the clients I educating but

29:33
I'm not changing and obviously education

29:36
is very important but I have personally

29:38
um you know I I'm big supporter of

29:40
education but I have also personally

29:42
changed my mindset on that that one

29:44
point I thought you could just educate

29:45
people and the world would

29:48
change and now I know education is a

29:50
piece of it it's not the solution and

29:53
interestingly enough there's actually a

29:54
ton of research which I didn't know it

29:56
at the time about how uh ineffective

29:58
education alone is in most areas right

30:02
that it does need to be coupled with

30:03
opportunity systems processes you know

30:06
but education is still important and

30:08
it's also often a very cost-effective

30:10
way to do things and Implement change

30:12
right Building Technology and systems to

30:14
get people into is very expensive

30:16
educating people tends to be fairly

30:18
cheap in comparison so uh I looked out

30:21
for a place that I thought was just

30:23
interesting and was Building Systems

30:25
that would help advisers create more

30:27
security retirement for their clients

30:30
and I I found Carson and ended up

30:32
joining here and have spent three years

30:34
here now feeling like we're doing that

30:37
and you know we've uh you know we impact

30:39
a lot of households is the way we look

30:41
at things at our firm we have served

30:43
39,000 households now which is a lot so

30:47
I I'm not at the million internally yet

30:49
but uh you know that's a lot of

30:51
individuals uh getting help and a lot

30:54
more people still need it though right

30:55
when you think about that number as the

30:56
grand scheme of the world it's not even

30:58
a percent of a percent right it's a a

31:01
very small piece of the overall pie but

31:04
that's what makes it easy for me so if

31:06
you get back to the end of the day

31:07
people are like well you work pretty

31:08
hard Jamie and you get up early and you

31:10
work late and all these different things

31:13
that I'm involved with it's easy because

31:15
what I tell people is my why you know my

31:17
why makes me cry it's very easy I'll

31:19
never I'll never have a moment in my

31:20
life where you know where I'm like I

31:21
don't want to work anymore I don't want

31:23
to do that because it's very easy you

31:25
think about your mom and your dad and

31:26
your dad passing away and your Aid and

31:28
leaving your family in that situation

31:30
your mom struggling for all those years

31:31
I'm never going to get tired of that I'm

31:33
never going to not have that as a

31:35
driving factor and so when we you know

31:38
when I coach people too I always say

31:40
that right find a why that makes you cry

31:42
and if you have that right you'll be

31:44
able to outwork other people and I know

31:46
a lot of people think they work hard um

31:48
but typically people who have that why

31:51
deeply rooted they understand it they

31:53
can go back to it they pull from it like

31:55
a well they can outwork other people and

31:57
a lot it just comes down to that are you

31:59
willing to put in the extra and that's

32:01
that's my driving why so it's uh you

32:03
know it's personal and it's I think most

32:05
why should be I great great background

32:08
great found foundation for the listeners

32:10
and viewers the why that makes you cry

32:13
can that be applied to the retiree or

32:15
the person going toward retirement

32:17
planning for retirement can you explain

32:20
what and give some examples possibly of

32:23
the why that makes you cry for people

32:25
that are going to chapter two of their

32:26
life absolutely absolutely I mean you

32:28
can use that in any area of your life it

32:31
just takes work it takes work on driving

32:34
down into yourself and understanding

32:36
what makes you click what you're afraid

32:38
of so a great example of this is I was

32:41
talking to Dr Brad Clans one time who's

32:43
a fantastic author and writer and he was

32:46
talking about I think it's his great

32:48
grandmother right um was you know super

32:51
conservative with her spending and how

32:52
she approached things and even some of

32:54
that still impacts him today and you

32:57
know you can look at things like that

32:58
like you know maybe you have a family

33:00
member you don't want to be like and you

33:02
don't want to live the life that they

33:03
did or as I said you know you want to

33:06
change like you're very involved with

33:08
your church and you want to leave a

33:10
lasting Legacy and impact so how are you

33:12
going to live your retirement to

33:13
actually give back and make meaningful

33:14
change there and if every day you wake

33:16
up and say you know what I'm doing

33:18
something positive today with my life

33:19
and I'm living my retirement in a way

33:21
that's going to you know show the change

33:23
that I want to have or maybe your

33:25
parents or grandparents passed away when

33:27
you were young you didn't get to spend

33:28
time with you know you never got to

33:30
spend time with your grandparents and

33:31
you want to make sure that your

33:33
grandchildren have that time with you I

33:35
mean that's a why that would make you

33:36
cry right being able to have

33:38
grandchildren that grow up you know

33:39
loving the experiences that they had

33:41
with you and that's how you design where

33:44
you want to live how you want to spend

33:45
your time and so I think all of those

33:48
right they can be different there's not

33:49
one answer for anyone there but I do

33:51
think if you get to retirement and you

33:53
say I have zero passions and I don't

33:54
have anything I care about right like

33:56
you're not going to live a great

33:58
right um whatever it might be like find

34:00
that pce and it might be you know

34:03
whatever it is for you I mean I think

34:04
that's deeply personal it's also why all

34:06
this stuff is called personal finance

34:08
because it's about you it's personal um

34:11
you know one of uh my friends Paul West

34:13
always when he does presentations on

34:14
this he holds up his thumb and he says

34:16
what's this you know it's my thumb print

34:18
it's Unique to me just like your

34:19
retirement will be unique to

34:21
you I love that because the whole why

34:25
that makes you cry um you know we can

34:27
tell people talk about money and get

34:28
caught up in Roi and get caught up in

34:30
what they have and can it cover for

34:32
long-term care and all this stuff um but

34:35
but I totally agree with you as part of

34:38
the and I hate to use the word holistic

34:41
but part of the whole planning for

34:43
people's

34:44
retirement um should involve the passion

34:47
what's the passion what are you doing

34:49
you know what's just because you're

34:50
retired passion is not flipping channels

34:53
unless you're you know professional

34:55
Channel flipper and work for neelon

34:57
right I mean that's your passion but

34:59
when you when you're advising um clients

35:02
and working with the advisers that work

35:04
um at the firm you're with are you

35:07
always making sure that they're asking

35:09
that why and making sure that there's a

35:12
reason for what's being done other than

35:14
just numbers and

35:16
return yeah so our you know process that

35:20
we we call it the proven process

35:22
internally which is you know always

35:25
working with people on the emotional

35:27
soft you know soft aspect of this first

35:31
that you do really have to dive in to

35:33
understand what's people's relationship

35:34
with their money what are their goals

35:36
you know how do they feel about things

35:38
versus just hopping in and saying hey

35:41
here's the numbers and our CEO talks

35:43
about it a lot he's like if you live and

35:45
die off the returns right you can't

35:47
control that end of day right returns

35:49
are going to be for the most part what

35:51
returns are and we're not out there

35:53
trying to outperform the market on

35:55
returns now there's a whole world out

35:56
there that's trying to do that and it's

35:57
not us and if you're looking for that

35:59
you got to go elsewhere and look for it

36:00
right if you think that there's magic

36:02
out there that you know that's that's

36:03
what you're looking for and some people

36:05
do right I mean there are there are

36:07
there's a portion of the world that's

36:08
looking for that and there'll be a

36:10
market then that serves you but it's not

36:11
kind of where planning lies the planning

36:13
doesn't lie in the notion of we're gonna

36:15
you know somehow find magic and you know

36:18
provide better returns or whatever it

36:20
might be so it's getting back to the

36:22
individual starting with the proven

36:23
process working on um you know planning

36:26
and just seeing what does true wealth

36:29
mean to you and so that's a term we use

36:31
a lot here too is true wealth and if you

36:34
kind of think about like the the the

36:36
hierarchy of needs which a lot of people

36:38
might remember from school which is you

36:40
know you take care of your bases and you

36:41
build off of it up until something

36:43
that's a little bit more you know

36:45
spiritual or detached from the basics

36:48
that you need and honestly that can be

36:50
applied to finances too that you have to

36:52
take care of your base income needs and

36:54
spending needs and you know your food

36:56
your Healthcare your housing taxes and

36:58
you build upon that to get to the things

37:01
that you know might be Legacy or meaning

37:03
in your life but you have to talk about

37:05
those because if you don't talk about

37:06
them like what are we doing there like

37:08
why are we why are we here to do

37:09
planning and you know I think all those

37:12
questions you know about family is

37:15
important about loss about Legacy about

37:18
how you want to make others feel like

37:20
why are you here today at all I mean if

37:22
it's you know somebody says I'm here

37:24
today because I want better returns than

37:26
my neighbor I mean

37:28
I that's that's a pretty shortsighted uh

37:31
view of the world so I think helping

37:34
people on that is often good and a lot

37:35
of people haven't done that work either

37:38
they haven't put in that time and you

37:40
know you can view this relationship as a

37:43
as a coaching relationship in a lot of

37:45
cases too Financial coaching is a term

37:48
that's out there now too and some people

37:50
need that and they need to change their

37:52
relationship with money where they've

37:54
come from an area of stress and

37:58
uh you know not an abundance mindset and

38:01
they need to change they need to

38:02
fundamentally go back to that

38:03
relationship and change it and that

38:05
requires coaching it's not just planning

38:07
it requires having conversations and

38:09
thinking about what was your first

38:11
experience with money well it was being

38:12
on food stamps and not having enough

38:14
money okay well you're going to approach

38:16
things differently than somebody else

38:17
who grew up wealthy and didn't have to

38:19
struggle and has always had an abundance

38:21
mindset and can spend spend spend

38:23
because they've never you know feel felt

38:25
the pain of being without money and so

38:27
those those require different

38:30
approaches looking at just retirement

38:32
income planning um what are some of the

38:35
misconceptions biases that you run

38:37
across that you're trying to clarify

38:39
with your

38:40
work yeah that there's been a lot out

38:43
there I think one of them was that this

38:45
retirement income you know issue was

38:49
somehow related to a lack of financial

38:52
literacy uh that's actually a bias that

38:54
we can kind of prove isn't really the

38:56
case now there is uh like an income

38:59
literacy Gap out there and I know people

39:01
we've been talking about terms people

39:02
don't love literacy is a term that PE

39:04
not everybody loves but it's one that at

39:06
least people understand what we're

39:07
talking about when we use it so for

39:09
purposes of conversation it functions

39:12
well as a communication

39:14
tool but if you look at people nearing

39:16
retirement we actually see most

39:18
Americans have gained some sense of

39:20
financial literacy it does not mean

39:22
though that they're good at income

39:23
planning those are two different things

39:25
they're very different the testing for

39:27
both like we understand compound

39:29
interest and the value of savings and

39:31
long-term growth by the time we get to

39:33
retirement um so that's a good thing but

39:36
the flip side is Americans don't exhibit

39:38
much retirement income literacy and

39:40
again it makes sense because they

39:42
haven't experienced it so I do think

39:44
that that is a jux position that not a

39:46
lot of people get that I might be

39:48
Financial literate but it doesn't mean

39:50
I'm retirement income literate and those

39:52
are two different things the other one

39:54
is I think there's a big misconception

39:56
about longevity and what does that even

39:59
mean and what we do see there's a lot of

40:01
data that will show people tend to

40:03
underestimate their own life expectancy

40:06
right we think we're going to die

40:07
earlier than we're going to but at the

40:09
same time we also act as if we're

40:11
Immortal and won't get sick and won't

40:13
need long-term care so we we have this

40:15
very weird piece right like well I'm

40:17
obviously not gonna live to 90 but I'm

40:19
not going to need long-term care either

40:21
and I'm like well how are we playing

40:23
both of these wrong right and so some

40:26
things are just reframing how you ask

40:29
questions there and you know if you're

40:31
alive at 65 you're a couple right it's

40:33
more likely than not that one of the two

40:35
of you will be alive at you know 90 95

40:38
you start looking at the numbers like

40:39
that then you said like if there was a

40:41
greater than 50% chance you'd be alive

40:43
at this date would you plan for it and

40:45
if the answer is yes then we need to

40:46
change our planning and if you frame the

40:49
question like that people answer yes if

40:51
you say you expect to live to 90 many

40:53
fewer people say yes so some of that is

40:56
just you know that's framing it's how

40:58
information is presented to you changes

41:00
your outcome and that is truly what is

41:02
considered actually an irrational

41:04
decision do you make a decision

41:05
differently just based on the way that

41:07
information is presented so I think as

41:09
an industry we've presented information

41:12
uh kind of improperly for a long time uh

41:15
even something you'll appreciate this

41:17
one like deferring Social Security is uh

41:21
I believe that we've kind of messed that

41:23
up because we've presented the

41:24
information incorrectly we always tell

41:26
people hey if defer you get 8% more well

41:29
what are we telling people we're saying

41:30
take on additional risk to get a higher

41:33
guarantee exactly well we know that

41:35
people actually don't chase on average

41:38
people don't like to chase risk for

41:40
higher return we'll Chase risk to get

41:42
rid of loss and we like to lock in gains

41:47
right like we want the certainty of gain

41:48
but we'll take risk to avoid loss it's a

41:51
little bit odd but it is how people

41:52
react so telling people to defer meaning

41:55
I will skip my guarantees and I will

41:58
take on the risk of dying next year to

41:59
receive a gain is the incorrect way to

42:01
look at it what we need to present it is

42:04
you know if you claim today here's how

42:06
much total income you would be giving up

42:08
in your life that is a better way to

42:10
present it to most people not everybody

42:12
but to most people but it's not how it's

42:14
done right it's not how we present

42:16
anything um in that fashion and so there

42:18
are little things like that those are

42:19
learning how people react to information

42:22
and reframing those points uh so you

42:26
know deferral secure income we talked

42:29
about longevity and uh long-term care

42:32
all of those can be presented in better

42:34
ways to actually get people to act upon

42:36
them versus how we approach it today

42:38
which is more fear-driven which is a

42:40
motivating factor but it's not as

42:41
powerful as some of the other ones that

42:43
we could

42:44
use you and we had weight fou on

42:46
recently and and um one of his books

42:48
that I just found fascinating was the

42:50
you know the the reverse mortgage book

42:52
and I know that you are one of the few

42:54
handful of people that bravely address

42:57
that and take you know Pioneers take all

42:58
the arrows right um can you kind of

43:01
explain how that works from the

43:04
standpoint of just how you introduce

43:06
that to people because I know annuities

43:08
get a bad rap and a lot of that's

43:10
deserved on some of the sales practices

43:12
that are going on out there um but in

43:14
the reverse mortgage side um you know

43:17
Wade has a good take on that I'd like to

43:19
hear your take on that as well yeah so

43:22
you know Dr Wade fou and I are pretty

43:24
good friends he wrote the forward to my

43:26
book I was part of the college uh in the

43:29
income Center when we hired him to bring

43:31
him in and he actually uh you know that

43:33
that Scara you said the future right he

43:35
was the future of the program when I

43:37
stepped out he was uh right there behind

43:39
me and stepped in as a director and uh

43:42
so Wade and I uh while we were at the

43:44
college we became involved with a group

43:46
at the time which was called the the

43:48
funding longevity task force and it was

43:50
a group of academics or we joke Eggheads

43:53
that uh just talked about reverse

43:55
mortgages and started to be the early

43:57
group of researchers Dr Barry Sachs Jo

44:00
Dr John Salter at a Texas Tech and Barry

44:03
Sachs is one of the more intelligent

44:04
people I've ever met I don't know how

44:06
many of these people I believe he has a

44:08
PhD from MIT and a JD from Harvard

44:11
there's only you know what is I don't

44:13
know how many of those there are but

44:14
that's pretty good combo yeah yeah so he

44:18
he's he's at least good at research

44:20
right um at a minimum and exactly he's a

44:24
very humble person he's one of those

44:25
people that also teaches you that the

44:27
smartest person in the room never

44:28
actually thinks they're the smartest

44:30
person in the room right if you asked

44:31
are you above or below average

44:32
intelligence he might put his hand up on

44:35
average intelligence and you're just

44:36
looking at him going Barry there's

44:38
nothing average about you my friend so

44:41
this group came together and um you know

44:44
it was kind of based off of this notion

44:47
that that popped up two researchers

44:48
Barry saxs and his brother and John

44:50
Salter and Harold vinsky and for people

44:53
who are listening you don't have to

44:54
worry about who these people are they're

44:55
just the names of the researchers so we

44:57
had two groups in the same year that

44:59
ended up doing research about reverse

45:01
mortgages and the use of them because

45:03
everything was and even finra one of the

45:05
regulating bodies here in the financial

45:07
industry said use reverse mortgages as a

45:10
last resort that's been the status quo

45:12
for a long time right and so you got

45:15
academics that just decided to go test

45:17
this and what they found was that that

45:19
was

45:20
wrong that that like none of the mass

45:23
supported it and you know now it seems

45:25
common sense that obviously the M should

45:27
support it but at the time people just

45:29
hadn't tested it and interestingly

45:30
enough this is the best thing for

45:32
academic research is that both of the

45:34
studies were occurring at the same time

45:36
unknown to each other and had similar

45:38
outcomes why is that really important in

45:40
the research world because it means that

45:41
we didn't have the bias of one existing

45:44
and impacting the research of future

45:46
researchers so while they were published

45:49
not at the exact same time they actually

45:51
finished their outcomes and were in

45:52
journal publication at the same time

45:55
which is huge and what those that

45:57
research found at the time was instead

45:59
of using home equity and reverse

46:01
mortgages as a line of Last Resort in

46:03
most situations you're going to be

46:05
better off using it early in

46:08
retirement and there's a basic

46:10
fundamental principle that underlies all

46:12
this and I always do this let's say we

46:14
had three assets one's going to grow at

46:17
3% one's going to grow at 5% one's going

46:19
to grow at

46:20
8% and you get to retirement stand and I

46:23
say here's your three assets we got your

46:24
3% bucket your 5% and your %. mhm you

46:29
choose which one to spend first and how

46:30
do you want to end up with the most

46:31
money which bucket do you spend first

46:33
you spend down your highest earning

46:35
asset first no of course not you leave

46:37
that for as long as possible do you send

46:39
your second highest earning asset next

46:41
no you probably don't you you probably

46:43
spend what you spend your lowest earning

46:45
asset first right makes perfect you know

46:48
all else being equal makes perfect sense

46:51
well essentially houses you look the

46:52
Schiller index grow about 3% historical

46:55
right throughout the course of the

46:56
United States Bonds were closer to four

46:58
to 5% equities are closer to eight

47:00
depending on which equities you're

47:01
looking at okay so if we get to

47:04
retirement should we keep our home to

47:06
our final asset that really all homes do

47:08
historically is keep PA with inflation

47:11
well actually we shouldn't because on

47:13
average that is going to keep our worst

47:14
performing return asset the longest and

47:17
spend down our other assets first and so

47:20
what the research essentially found was

47:22
use reverse mortgages in

47:25
downturns right or earlier in retirement

47:28
or to help defer the spending of other

47:30
assets right so if the market drops

47:33
instead of spending a bunch of your

47:35
right equities and bonds pull from your

47:38
home pull from your Equity through a

47:40
reverse mortgage versus spending down

47:43
your stocks and bonds early during

47:45
volatile time periods and leaving your

47:46
home to the end and that's what they've

47:48
kind of deemed as the coordinated

47:50
strategy coordinating your home equity

47:53
distributions and spending along with

47:55
your other assets and you used the term

47:57
earlier it's a holistic approach and

48:00
honestly there are very few things in

48:03
the world that I've ever seen we're just

48:05
leaving something alone and doing

48:07
nothing with it is the best strategy

48:11
right typically doing something is

48:13
better than doing nothing so it actually

48:16
makes perfect sense that some

48:17
coordination between the assets is

48:19
probably better than doing absolutely

48:22
nothing with it and that is what the

48:24
research has found now uh telling the

48:27
story of that group it's obviously

48:28
progressed a lot the laws and the rules

48:30
have changed the research has gotten

48:32
deeper and deeper that group uh moved

48:34
from there to part of the American

48:36
college when Wade and I were there and

48:38
then when I left um I kind of I guess

48:40
shephered it away in a sense because I

48:43
wasn't going to be there anymore um

48:45
Wade's still part of it and we took it

48:47
to University of Illinois and it is a

48:49
part of the University Illinois and we

48:51
still do research out of there it's

48:52
grown a little bit where we've got some

48:55
uh former HUD members and uh additional

48:58
researchers that have joined since then

49:01
and it has broaden we do look at home

49:02
equity um really it's a you know is

49:06
really the initiative now is around home

49:08
equity right and income planning but

49:11
it's a big Miss for a lot of people is

49:13
just having a bias against a product now

49:16
I agree the same way and I've said this

49:17
many times uh both about annuities and

49:20
reverse mortages is I believe both

49:22
products have been oversold and

49:23
underutilized agre which means I don't

49:26
love the sales practices and there were

49:27
a lot of uh in the reverse space

49:30
especially one of the issues was people

49:32
were compensated based off of the dollar

49:34
amount that you pulled out of the loan

49:37
that actually doesn't tie to any best

49:38
practice of the research I mean and the

49:40
clear bias there is if I am a loan

49:42
officer there and that's how I'm

49:43
compensated I'm trying to get you to

49:44
pull all the money out at day one even

49:46
if you need it or don't need it that's

49:48
obviously not a good practice and I

49:49
don't support it but you know

49:52
integration of home equity and

49:53
retirement planning is important the

49:56
American dream can turn into the

49:58
American stream right I'm always

50:01
thinking about marketing how do you how

50:03
do you frame it in English to so that

50:05
people understand it but um I haven't

50:08
even gotten to the list of topics so

50:10
that means you have to come back on in

50:12
the future Jamie the truth but um any

50:16
last I we got to kind of close it up

50:18
because uh you know people have to get

50:19
off the treadmill um or get out of their

50:21
car so what any any Sage advice for the

50:24
listeners and viewers from me the truth

50:27
Hopkins well I thought it was the future

50:29
now I'm you know Paul Pierce the truth

50:31
the truth is already taken it is you are

50:34
the F no all all kidding you are the

50:36
future and and I say that with respect

50:39
but also the fact that I think you're

50:42
kind of like me you're very serious

50:43
about what you do but you don't take

50:44
yourself too seriously yeah well I would

50:47
say here's here's something I give to

50:49
everyone I write this in the book to

50:50
reement which is challenge what you

50:52
think is true okay there are lots of

50:55
examples of things we know to be true

50:57
that we're wrong about and I use this

50:58
example as more of a you know normal one

51:01
because everyone knows the answer what's

51:04
the one thing Stan you know about

51:06
Napoleon I'm taller than he

51:09
is right everybody knows that Napoleon

51:14
right or most people was a a shorter you

51:17
know a short person right there's a

51:19
Napoleon complex named after it

51:21
vertically challenged is what I call it

51:23
right yeah right and then here's the

51:26
thing we know as a fact that Napoleon

51:28
was an above aage height

51:30
individual he was he was an above

51:32
average height

51:34
person and all of a sudden you're like

51:36
no no no they can't be treated I can go

51:37
look it up we've got all that you know

51:39
they they have everything about it the

51:40
only reason we believe that Napoleon was

51:42
short was because of British propaganda

51:45
during the war they drew him as a tiny

51:47
short fat guy on the horse to discredit

51:49
him very nice I said it with confidence

51:52
because I'm 66 so I'm pretty sure oh

51:55
yeah that I could post him up and score

51:57
at will on him on Napoleon you you

52:00
easily could have posted him up and

52:02
remember everybody was sure and then

52:03
some people bring it up well you know he

52:04
was only 5 foot six or whatever I'm like

52:06
but that's irrelevant because at the

52:08
time he was a taller person right he

52:11
would be a six foot one person today you

52:13
know so no Napoleon wasn't short but

52:16
everybody believes that to be true I

52:18
mean you probably could even get a

52:19
Jeopardy question which what is you and

52:21
get that one wrong and those things are

52:23
amazing to me in the fact that we just

52:25
believe that they're true we don't

52:26
challenge things that is true all across

52:28
the board you believe that reverse

52:30
mortgages are bad and evil products in

52:32
themselves are very rarely says I hate

52:35
all annuities yep I hate annuities well

52:38
you know we don't we don't have enough

52:39
time to dive into that one but obviously

52:41
next next time I mean I I always tell

52:43
people you already own one it's called

52:45
Social Security so you can't hate it

52:46
that much or you need to call the

52:48
government and cancel the payments Jamie

52:50
the future I really appreciate it it's

52:52
been a pleasure um having you on I'm

52:54
going to hold you to the fact that you

52:55
nodded your head that you will come back

52:57
on because I want to get into a lot more

52:59
details but um I really enjoyed learning

53:02
about who you who you are what makes you

53:04
tick the background um I've certainly

53:06
been a follower of your work as I'm sure

53:08
all of my a lot of my clients and and

53:10
people listen to this but I really

53:12
appreciate you uh you joining us and

53:14
with that I want to thank everyone for

53:16
joining us on fun with annuities where

53:18
our saying here is living the reality

53:20
not the dream I will see you next

53:25
week

53:28
a