Dana Anspach: Be Aware of Financial Biases

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can find out the brutal

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facts about annuities with no sales

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pitches or high pressure nonsense just

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the brutal and factual annuity truth

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which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

0:41
host stan the annuity man america's

0:43
annuity agent license in all 50 states

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so glad

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that you joined us on all major podcast

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platforms and the fun with annuities

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youtube channel where you can see me and

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the lovely guests interacting in our

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facial expressions etc especially when i

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say something and they disagree and they

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just kind of grimace and roll their eyes

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etc today's guest is a superstar rock

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star

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and she has graced our presence once

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before and i hope this isn't the last

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time hope to not offend her but you know

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occasionally i get calls that say you

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know i want somebody really smart with a

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high iq that has a very uh extensive

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background that's creative that has a

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good team around her but here's the key

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stan

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i need them to write a harley davidson

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now that last part typically eliminates

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most people but not this person welcome

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back to fun with annuities dana onspock

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stan i'm so glad to be here i should

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have rode my harley into the office just

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to record i could do a little room vroom

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right now next time well that's that

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that'd be kind of like judas priest the

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rock band you know they ride that harley

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on stage i know i'm dating myself a

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little bit but uh maybe the next time

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you wear the leather jacket you know

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with the sensible money

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sensiblemoney.com logo and the juicing

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on the sleeve you know i'll see if i can

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get a special bandana made i like it

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hey i wanted to get you on because i

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don't at the time of this taping

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everybody look at the day so if you're

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looking at it two years from now this is

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why we're talking about it

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there's a few things going on dana and i

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wanted to get a rational level-headed

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approach to a lot of things that are

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happening but um i wanted to start off a

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long time ago i think you had a

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i was kind of doing some research and we

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always do this on you even though you

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don't know that that's the reason i knew

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about the harley davidson

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but um i think he had a blog that was

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called don't blame the hammer

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but i wanted to lead into that because i

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thought that was neat because i always

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think annuity annuity agents most of

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them are hammers looking for nails

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um

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please don't be the nail but the key

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word and the one word i want to throw at

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you overhand with the run you start is

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the word

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biases can you

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jump into what we're going into and what

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people can get

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they can be they can be victim of biases

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from from agents advisors riaa's masters

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of the universe

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yeah absolutely so i see this i mean

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i've been practicing 27 years

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and you'll be in a conversation with a

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client and bring up something a stock an

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annuity a reverse mortgage bonds

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and suddenly they will react to one of

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these words like it was a four-letter

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word

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and you'll think what just happened and

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so i wrote this blog post called don't

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blame the hammer and in it i used the

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story of somebody that was trying to put

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a screw in the wall and they were

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pounding on it with a hammer and it

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didn't work and it made a big mess and

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the drywall was everywhere and the screw

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wouldn't stay in the wall and they were

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yelling and saying hammers don't work

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and i'm never going to buy a hammer

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again i'm never going to use a hammer

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again when really they just had the

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wrong tool for the job

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and maybe they wouldn't weren't educated

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on even how to use a hammer or how to

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put a screw in the wall that could be

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the problem too

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when you're not educated it's easy to

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use the wrong tool for the job because

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you don't really know what the tool does

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and what it's for

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and i encounter that i've encountered it

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so many times over the years with people

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who maybe they had a bad experience in

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the stock market so they say stocks

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don't work i'll never buy stocks again

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maybe they heard something about

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annuities that annuities are horrible

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and you lose all your money or you can't

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touch your money and so they say

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annuities oh you know i would never use

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those right

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we see it with reverse mortgages where

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we bring up this concept of a reverse

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mortgage and

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as i was thinking about this podcast

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today i thought about you know what i

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will probably most definitely use a

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reverse mortgage one day and i'd love to

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you know if we get into it explain to

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the readers why we see it with bonds

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where people say well interest rates are

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going to go up i shouldn't own any bonds

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so we see it all the time and those are

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biases that can inhibit us from making

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the most optimal decisions for our

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finances

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how do people guard against that though

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because you know we all have what's

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called confirmation bias in all forms of

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our life where it's political or or if

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someone say give you a good example if

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they're a florida gator they just think

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all gators are great i wouldn't know who

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i was talking about there dana but dana

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went to uf so um

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how do how do people in when it comes

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their money

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guard against those biases coming at

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them and they might not know it is a

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bias

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yeah

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well i think the first thing is

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raising awareness right thinking how do

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i view all of these financial

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instruments as simply tools

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not as a bad tool so how do we avoid the

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label this is bad and this is good

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and simply approach it the way we might

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approach a tool in our garage

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is you know what does it do

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well we all know i mean i'm not a handy

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person but i still know you have the

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right tool for the job it works much

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better than if you are trying to use the

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wrong tool

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so getting curious

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you know why are there so many annuities

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why is a reverse mortgage for

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what is the appropriate use for bonds so

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i think that curiosity really can can

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help people avoid falling into the bias

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trap and

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stepping back and thinking about i see

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so many media articles that will be

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slanted toward a certain view

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and

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you know you can see things for example

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you know you should buy gold you should

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you know do this you should do that and

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that advice is appropriate for someone

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but not for everyone

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so

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understanding who might the audience be

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is it a corporate audience so the way

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that companies have to manage their

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investment portfolios or a pension plan

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might manage theirs it's very different

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than the way an individual might need to

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manage so some of the things that we

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read out there aren't necessarily

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written for our household they don't

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know our age our dem you know our

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financial situation our tax rate when we

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want to retire our family situation

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so you have to be cautious and realize

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you know those biases can come because

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it was good advice for someone and that

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someone isn't you

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well and in my world i just made it very

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simple to take out the bias we just buy

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contractual guarantees and shop all

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carriers in your process what i like

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about

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your process uh with you and your team

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is it's very very pragmatic it's very

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very um

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detailed

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and non-rushed

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can you go into that a little bit about

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how your system

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strips away those biases

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yeah so we are

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a self-professed retirement income geeks

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and

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so one of the challenges i had when i

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started in this career in 1995 was

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you know people would ask you questions

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like should i pay off my mortgage or

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invest the money should i buy term

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insurance or whole life should i use a

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reverse mortgage should i buy this

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annuity we didn't have any way to

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quantify the answer and i started off

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working for it was a great company but

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it was a sales organization and so they

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would train you to explain to the client

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how you could earn a higher rate of

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return by doing this versus that but

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there was never any mathematical

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analysis and and it really bugged me and

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so

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i went on my own deep dive of becoming a

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fee only planner and building our own

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spreadsheet models so that we could take

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these answers and turn them into an

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analysis a set of we call them our

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retirement readiness tests they're not

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really tests they're guidelines but if

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you you know exceed certain parameters

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we feel 100 confident that your plan

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will work without further adjustment and

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if you don't exceed a certain set of

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parameters then there's just a higher

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probability that somewhere along the way

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you might have to spend a little less or

8:55
work another year or make some type of

8:57
adjustment and so within those

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parameters when

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we

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build in an annuity into a client's

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financial plan we can quantify did it

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increase

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certain metrics one of those is what we

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call a coverage ratio

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did it increase their fundedness so much

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like a pension plan produces a report

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each year that shows its fundedness

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level we have a report or an analysis we

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do on our clients each year that shows

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us how funded their retirement plan is

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to support their future cash flows and

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so you can build in the use of these

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different tools and did it increase

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these metrics do they look better did it

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improve them or not and so it gives us a

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more mathematical way to say here's why

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we would be making this recommendations

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here's what it does for you and it's not

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all measured in terms of rate of return

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there's other risks we face the risk of

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running out of money of living long we

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don't think of that as a risk but

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living long is a risk in in financial

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terms uh there is the

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security of the income we might have

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people experience cognitive decline as

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they get older and

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they can do strange things with their

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money so if they have a baseline of

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guaranteed income or decisions that have

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been made ahead of time it can help

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protect them from them so it's it's a

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metrics based process that we use it is

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very detailed but it also looks at

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things from a viewpoint that's broader

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than just how do we increase your rate

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of return

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we're talking to dana onspock the pride

10:32
of scottsdale arizona and gainesville

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florida at the same time

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um

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cognitive decline dana i mean this is a

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this is an issue that's tough to bring

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up with those a personality clients

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because they're already they're hitting

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on 12 cylinders they're they're they're

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like yeah it's hard to convince them

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that they have to plan for that

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um or they have to realize that their

10:57
spouse or significant other

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isn't as into the financial

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um plan as they are and they need to

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have a continuation plan not just if

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they you know something happens to them

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if they're allergic it hits the mountain

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as i say but if they start not hitting

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on all cylinders how do you

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tiptoe into that tough conversation with

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your clients how does your team do that

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you know we probably don't tiptoe

11:22
[Laughter]

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you're the hammer you know okay here it

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is this is something we need to plan for

11:30
um

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i find most people who are working with

11:34
financial advisors have a level of

11:37
awareness around this already one of the

11:39
reasons they want that relationship in

11:42
place earlier in retirement is

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once you have a trusted advisor it

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becomes a lot easier to rely on them as

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cognitive decline sets in

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versus

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if you've met older people they can be

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distrusting when cognitive decline sets

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in of new people

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so when you have that trusting

12:02
relationship in place

12:04
you know we do see that people will

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realize we have their best interests at

12:08
heart and as we're giving them advice

12:10
later in life they they will accept it

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and they often introduce us to other

12:15
family members and give us permission to

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reach out to them if there's anything

12:19
that we see

12:20
but it so so we bring it up right from

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the beginning and we find the type of

12:24
person we typically work work with is is

12:27
amenable to it

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for

12:29
the people who resist the idea

12:32
you just have to think about some of the

12:34
people you know maybe family members

12:36
that you've seen

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we have a story here so we have a client

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we've been working with since 2010

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and the husband is our the primary

12:45
person that interacts the wife has

12:47
joined the meetings

12:48
maybe once or twice over 10 years he had

12:53
a series of two strokes last year

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and we could not get a hold of her she

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wouldn't respond

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and finally i'm sure she was dealing

13:02
with a lot you know we made sure

13:04
everything was still happening and their

13:05
retirement paychecks were getting

13:07
deposited to them

13:08
when we finally did get a hold of her

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she still at that age was like well you

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know why do we have so much cash in her

13:16
bank account she didn't know in in their

13:18
checking account we don't control their

13:21
normal banking checking account and why

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you know do you guys pay our bills do

13:26
you pay my bills for me

13:27
and and we don't

13:29
and so

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when you realize you know now what were

13:33
we able to do we was we were asking

13:35
who's helping you and she said her

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daughter was coming in towns we were

13:38
able to set up a conference call with

13:40
the daughter and the wife and help them

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understand like here's what we do and

13:44
your daughter can help you with the bill

13:46
pay and here's why your husband wanted

13:48
the extra cash in the checking account

13:51
it was i mean we love when we get to to

13:54
really be there for our clients in these

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situations

13:57
that wouldn't have happened if that that

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trusting relationship hadn't been in

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place for a decade ahead of this event

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steve pearce was on my podcast a while

14:07
back and he calls he calls the the three

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levels

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of cognitive decline and i don't think

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he came up with it but he's promoted it

14:14
really well and i i asked permission to

14:17
use it from him he calls it go go slow

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go and no go

14:21
and you've you've all heard of that but

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i think that's a very succinct way to

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put it to people there's a lot of people

14:27
in the go go world right now but you

14:28
there will be slogo and for all you

14:30
people over 50 that said yeah i'm going

14:32
to be you know active and and once you

14:34
hit 50 you're like wait a minute i'm not

14:36
as active it's the same it's the same

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thing but

14:39
with 10 000 baby boomers

14:41
hitting age 65 every single day i think

14:44
this is something in the financial

14:45
planning world and the financial world

14:47
in general that needs to be addressed

14:49
obviously you don't go into the meeting

14:50
go you're going to lose it eventually

14:52
jim so we need to get something together

14:54
you don't do that that's probably the

14:55
way i do it but

14:56
um i think it's part of the overall

15:00
financial plan whereas in the past i

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don't think that was something that was

15:05
discussed we just it's one of those

15:07
things where you just dealt with it when

15:08
it happened

15:09
and i'm hearing from you and your team

15:12
you're you're talking about it day one

15:13
whether they're 50 55 62 65 70 it

15:16
doesn't matter we're talking about

15:18
what's the continuation plan here

15:21
correct

15:22
yeah yeah you are because we've seen

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things that happened you know we had

15:26
another client who

15:27
they had a life insurance policy

15:30
actually it wasn't our client it was

15:31
their parents

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and so uh the client called us you know

15:37
wanting to know if there's anything we

15:38
could do this life insurance policy had

15:40
been

15:41
canceled literally two months before i

15:44
think one of the parents passed

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because they just missed the premium

15:48
notice

15:50
so they were in their 80s and the mail

15:53
came and they didn't pay it and they

15:55
didn't want to set it up on automatic

15:57
payment and and so

15:59
we've seen things like that that could

16:01
have been avoided i'll tell you another

16:02
situation i just had last year

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so i have a client couple

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uh the husband is younger than the wife

16:10
by i think about eight years

16:12
and he had a 50 000 life insurance

16:15
policy on her

16:17
and the premium was going up which

16:19
happens later in life sure and he called

16:22
me and he wanted to cancel it and i

16:24
think it was going up by 200 a month and

16:26
he just didn't want to pay it

16:28
well she had been quite ill

16:31
and

16:32
uh

16:33
was hospice had been called and he would

16:36
have canceled that policy and i said no

16:39
we need to keep that policy and we're

16:42
going to send you the extra money to pay

16:44
the premium but given her current health

16:46
situation i don't think you should

16:48
cancel it and within three months she

16:51
passed okay and that would have been

16:53
fifty thousand dollars he would have

16:54
just walked away from because right

16:57
that ability to measure out an extra two

17:00
hundred dollars a month and some of it's

17:02
just human he didn't want to face the

17:03
reality that she might pass right

17:06
you know you know you have to relate to

17:08
that sense like somebody doesn't want to

17:10
face that reality and by paying that

17:13
premium and thinking of it in logical

17:15
terms you're sort of saying well you

17:18
know these are the odds they don't want

17:19
to think of that in terms of of

17:22
you know

17:23
a payoff of course nobody wants to think

17:25
of that in those terms but that is our

17:27
job is to say you know we understand

17:30
you're super emotional but here's why

17:32
you need to to keep that policy

17:34
and at the time of this taping just just

17:36
in the past few days bruce willis the

17:38
actor has retired from acting because of

17:41
cognitive decline

17:43
and um so you know

17:45
if you think of bruce willis you think

17:47
of he's vibrant and he's funny and he's

17:49
sharp and

17:50
you know but you know things catch up

17:53
and things happen so

17:55
because things happen you have to have a

17:56
financial plan in place i do like the

17:58
fee only structure because

18:01
you guys are sitting on the same side of

18:02
the table

18:04
as as them

18:05
um and i always i always think that's

18:07
the always tell people find a fee only

18:09
planner and you're saying wait a minute

18:11
stan your your commission yes i am a

18:13
commission guy

18:14
um

18:15
but i'm a different one i know you're

18:17
saying sure you are no seriously i am um

18:19
because we're only talking about

18:20
contractual guarantees it has to fit and

18:22
it has to be in proportion and

18:23
allocation

18:24
um i always talk about

18:26
yeah there was always fake financial

18:29
news before there was fake news so trump

18:31
didn't come up with anything and i think

18:32
the fake financial news

18:35
um that we're seeing and and continue to

18:38
see we'll continue to see ongoing

18:40
leads into those biases as well

18:43
um

18:44
can you comment a little bit about what

18:46
you're seeing out there the typical cnbc

18:49
fox news fox business type thing the

18:52
business channels in bloomberg those are

18:54
you know those are cal you can calculate

18:56
that you kind of can see the ads coming

18:58
and and the agendas it's the other stuff

19:00
that's that's

19:02
getting into social media and very

19:04
subtly

19:05
pushing people to biases that are sales

19:08
driven

19:10
what's your take on that and how do

19:12
people try to filter that out as well

19:14
because seniors are on social media

19:16
whether people think they are or not

19:18
yeah

19:19
you know

19:20
i haven't seen it in

19:22
the financial social media as much but

19:25
i have seen

19:27
things that

19:29
people in my life whom i trust and

19:31
admire and who are highly intelligent

19:33
thought were true

19:35
and i said

19:37
no like that is a fake screenshot and i

19:39
was able to go prove it to them

19:42
but i have seen so many things like that

19:45
and there was a course i was just

19:47
reading about i don't know if it came

19:49
out of wharton

19:50
or colombia

19:52
where there's a professor now training

19:54
people on

19:56
you know i don't want to call it how to

19:57
spot fake news but how to be

20:00
how to interpret your social media feed

20:02
how to spot things that aren't true and

20:05
and actually teaching people how do you

20:06
go verify the source are there links to

20:08
the source you know what are some red

20:10
flags that would lead you to think that

20:12
this was

20:13
you know

20:14
fictitious

20:16
and so there is a ton of that out there

20:18
a ton of it i know and it's unregulated

20:20
because there's so much of it and um

20:23
there's no way to regulate that which i

20:25
always tell people just just be very

20:26
careful don't go looking for the perfect

20:28
product and if you do go looking for it

20:30
someone's going to find it for you and

20:31
sell it to you

20:33
they are it doesn't go it doesn't exist

20:36
and i see this

20:37
especially in my industry the life

20:39
insurance and annuity industry is is

20:41
just

20:42
you know they're

20:43
they're trying to sell people a product

20:45
that they think sells for everything and

20:47
they tell them that it does in order to

20:48
get the sale it's just an un

20:50
unfortunately

20:52
it's just hard to regulate it i don't

20:53
blame the carriers because they put out

20:55
the contracts it's just the agent of uh

20:57
army agent out there that's pushing it

21:00
with their own agendas

21:01
scottsdale arizona arizona is rife with

21:04
that obviously florida is a melting pot

21:07
of those kind of grifters and sociopaths

21:09
that sell that but i just tell people

21:11
all the time

21:12
there's no there's no quick fix there's

21:14
no pill to get skinny and i have

21:16
six-pack abs

21:17
and there's no per and there's no perfe

21:19
if there was i take it and there's no

21:20
perfect product as well which leads me

21:23
to the kind of the next thing i want you

21:25
to you mentioned it earlier and i had

21:27
weight foul on

21:28
recently and he's obviously written a

21:30
book on on reverse mortgages but i think

21:33
when people like you

21:34
start talking about reverse mortgages i

21:36
think

21:37
i think smart people in the room kind of

21:39
go they do the scooby-doo

21:42
because that's the wild wild west when

21:45
it comes to

21:47
marketing and things like that but there

21:49
is a place

21:50
for reverse mortgages can you kind of go

21:53
into

21:54
your research and what you have come up

21:56
with from an advice standpoint when it

21:59
comes to reverse mortgages

22:01
yeah absolutely you know a lot of people

22:03
think of the reverse mortgage as a

22:06
last minute resort i don't know even

22:08
last minute last you know

22:10
you're you don't have any other options

22:12
only bullet in the gun right yeah

22:14
exactly

22:15
but there's so many advantages

22:18
in general what we like to do in many

22:20
cases is preserve home equity for

22:22
potential long-term care costs later in

22:24
life if you're going to need to be in a

22:27
facility you're probably going to sell

22:28
your home and that equity can can be

22:30
used to help cover your care costs

22:33
so in general that that's our approach

22:35
now a lot of our clients have long-term

22:37
care insurance so they have a lot of

22:38
those costs covered already

22:40
and then we don't need to preserve the

22:42
home equity for that

22:44
and a reverse mortgage is

22:47
okay you know some of the basics it can

22:49
be used starting at i believe it's age

22:51
62.

22:52
generally you have to have at least

22:54
fifty percent equity in your home but

22:56
let's say someone had a four hundred

22:59
thousand dollar or three hundred

23:00
thousand dollar property and a hundred

23:02
and fifty thousand dollar mortgage

23:03
remaining at sixty five in many cases

23:06
you can use a reverse mortgage to simply

23:08
eliminate your current mortgage

23:10
now by eliminate no you're not getting

23:13
rid of the mortgage right but instead of

23:15
making payments to the mortgage and

23:17
having a hundred and fifty thousand

23:18
dollar balance that goes down a little

23:20
bit each year it's like the payment you

23:22
would have made a cruise onto the

23:24
mortgage and you have a slightly

23:26
larger balance each year now people

23:29
somehow look at this as

23:31
you know like the bank can take their

23:33
home there's still this this perception

23:35
out there but it doesn't work that way

23:37
if there is so let's say you did this

23:39
for a few years and you didn't have a

23:42
mortgage payment and

23:43
your home appreciates and your mortgage

23:45
balance also appreciates so it's several

23:48
years later and your home's worth more

23:50
but now your mortgage balance is at 250

23:52
000 it started at 150.

23:55
you pass or decide to sell the home you

23:57
sell the home the remaining equity is

23:59
still yours

24:00
you pass the remaining equity still goes

24:03
to your heirs

24:04
so

24:06
if your goal is to maximize cash flow

24:09
right i want to have cash flow and this

24:11
is why i said i would probably use a

24:13
reverse mortgage i don't have children

24:15
why would i want to preserve my home

24:17
equity to pass along to someone i'd

24:19
rather maximize my cash flow so i can

24:22
enter retirement with a mortgage use a

24:24
reverse mortgage to eliminate it and you

24:27
know i'd rather have that money to

24:29
travel and spend and do some fun things

24:31
in retirement

24:32
even if i do have children

24:35
mentally

24:36
we tend to bucket things right i want

24:38
the house to be go here i want this to

24:41
go there

24:42
if we

24:44
instead think about this as a big jigsaw

24:47
puzzle and think about these different

24:49
pieces and how do i put them together in

24:52
the way that's going to

24:53
accomplish the picture that's most

24:55
important to me

24:56
and for many people having a comfortable

24:58
retirement lifestyle is important and

25:01
leaving assets to errors is secondary

25:04
right yes i want to be comfortable and

25:06
yes it would be nice to leave something

25:08
and so reverse mortgages can fit very

25:11
well into those situations too to free

25:13
up cash flow so that you can go out

25:16
especially during your go-go years you

25:18
brought up those you know

25:20
gosh we see that in real life with every

25:23
one of our clients early retirement

25:25
they're traveling and active and

25:27
usually by by mid 70s sometimes early

25:30
70s about the time required minimum

25:32
distributions begin

25:34
people slow down

25:37
they they slow down they don't spend as

25:39
much

25:40
so you want to front load that spending

25:43
during those go-go years if that's the

25:45
likely path and

25:47
reverse mortgages and many other things

25:49
are all tools that can help you do that

25:52
you don't have to answer this if you

25:53
don't want to but reverse mortgages we

25:55
talk about that conceptually i'm

25:57
assuming if people contact you at

26:00
sensiblemoney.com that's all one word

26:02
sensiblemoney.com and again we're going

26:04
to have a full page for dana on my site

26:07
so that you can access that so you don't

26:08
have to scramble for a pencil do you

26:11
have sources that you have vetted your

26:13
you and your team have vetted and trust

26:15
for these reverse mortgage process if

26:17
someone wants to do that

26:19
we have some local ones but it really

26:21
depends on your state

26:23
and so you're required to go through a

26:26
counseling session which i think does a

26:28
disservice to a reverse mortgage that's

26:30
weird i didn't know that really yeah

26:33
yeah so the you know it's it's a

26:35
government-backed program and they

26:37
basically say

26:38
they want and well i guess it's not so

26:40
horrible here i am talking about the

26:42
need for education right so

26:44
they want you to go through education to

26:46
really understand what it is and how it

26:48
works and so actually that does make

26:50
sense but that scares some people off

26:52
too

26:53
to think what i have to go through a

26:54
counseling session sure should be called

26:56
an education session you know how does a

26:58
reverse mortgage counseling is probably

27:00
not the right word to promote this it

27:02
would be a

27:03
informative fact fact-finding meeting

27:06
yes

27:07
but that is required and so oftentimes

27:10
you're going to want someone in your

27:12
state

27:14
and and that's going to offer the

27:15
reverse mortgage program now sometimes

27:17
we can help you vet that person okay but

27:20
but usually you're going to want someone

27:21
in your state since it is a

27:23
government-backed program

27:25
there are a lot of reputable

27:27
uh banks and mortgage lenders that offer

27:30
it because it's very low risk to them

27:33
very very low risk yes there's fees like

27:35
any mortgage

27:37
but the government has basically said

27:39
hey

27:40
if the home has less equity than the

27:42
mortgage we're going to pick up the

27:43
difference so the bank has no risk and

27:46
as a consumer that's great on you if

27:49
your house should be underwater you

27:50
don't you don't carrying that risk now

27:52
you still get your monthly income along

27:54
the way and if there is equity in the

27:57
home then great the mortgage gets paid

27:58
off and you or your heirs get to keep it

28:02
i've got to ask you this because i'm

28:04
sure your head

28:05
you're when you're riding your harley

28:07
and you're wearing your helmet your

28:08
helmet just blew off when you heard it

28:11
the proposal which i don't think will

28:12
pass about taxing unrealized capital

28:15
gains i know for billionaires but they

28:17
always come down below that

28:20
can you say on a scale of 1 to 10 how

28:22
dumb that is oh oh is 10 the dumbest it

28:25
could be that's the dumbest thing dana

28:28
i can't imagine

28:31
being a president and and someone handed

28:33
me that card to read and then i read it

28:35
that i i don't that just tells you how

28:37
out of touch

28:39
and money greedy those people are

28:41
because that's the stupidest thing and i

28:43
think if that ever passed i think me and

28:45
you immediately retire and go ride

28:47
harley's correct yeah it would be you

28:49
know and so

28:50
i i've recently read something else now

28:53
this was on twitter by somebody

28:55
reputable on twitter but i haven't

28:57
verified it okay but their take was that

29:00
the media surprised the price had sort

29:03
of blown this proposal out of proportion

29:06
and yeah so

29:08
that there is a i think mark to market

29:11
requirement for certain dealers or

29:13
institutions yes and so all they were

29:16
doing was looking at

29:18
implementing that for institutions for

29:21
certain digital assets also and that

29:23
perhaps the media took it and ran with

29:25
it and thought that it would apply to

29:27
everyone and that didn't seem to be the

29:29
intention i haven't verified any of this

29:32
but would it surprise me that the media

29:33
might take something and blow it out of

29:35
proportion no that wouldn't surprise me

29:37
at all the surprise to me is is the

29:40
handlers and the supposed smart people

29:42
around the president allowing him to

29:44
even utter it

29:46
and have people translate it that they

29:47
want there's no way that was a win when

29:50
you said it there was just there is no

29:52
unless you know the person out there

29:53
going

29:54
good elon musk you know i understand

29:57
those kind of you know class envy

29:58
sentiments but

30:00
um people always need to remember if

30:01
they're if they're going after

30:02
billionaires guess who's next

30:04
yeah

30:06
yeah so i i mean it would be ridiculous

30:10
to tax unrealized games

30:13
like i said i mean that's when you text

30:15
me go hey stan i'm out you know we're

30:17
gonna just drive

30:19
drive the bike

30:20
think about right some of the the things

30:23
around corporate earnings right

30:25
we have a publicly traded company and

30:27
there's this

30:28
concern they're so focused on short-term

30:30
thinking and corporate earnings and the

30:31
next earnings statement that they make

30:33
decisions that don't help the company in

30:34
the long term well if you're taxing

30:37
unrealized gains you're going to have to

30:39
sell assets to pay the taxes and now you

30:42
have people thinking short term short

30:44
term trading short term holding times

30:46
they're not thinking about the long term

30:48
potential of the asset that is not good

30:50
for anybody it's not good well and and

30:53
this is a direct reflection of what

30:55
happened during covet and giving away

30:57
the money and the fraud that went i mean

30:59
the fraud that we're hearing about and

31:00
me and you both knew was happening

31:03
it's just horrific but can you comment

31:06
on the numerous black swan type events

31:08
that are happening with with russia

31:11
invading

31:12
interest rates supposedly rising gas

31:15
prices at at ridiculous highs

31:18
um

31:19
i could keep going

31:21
i mean

31:22
this is i mean

31:24
you have a system in place with you and

31:26
your team that's pragmatic etc but i

31:28
guarantee you people are calling what

31:30
are you telling people here at this

31:32
point in time when they're panicking

31:34
just a tad

31:35
yeah we've been lucky we we did get a

31:37
few calls when the the russia invaded

31:40
ukraine

31:41
with people who wanted to move their

31:43
money around and

31:45
you know should we be doing something i

31:47
know there's that sense to think i

31:48
should be doing something but

31:50
when you can step back and study the

31:53
statistics study the numbers

31:55
we have been through

31:57
many events like this we've been through

31:59
world wars we've been through the great

32:00
depression we've been through peak oil

32:03
prices peak inflation in the 80s there's

32:06
all kinds of things that have happened

32:08
and so what's going on right now we

32:11
don't really view as a black swan event

32:14
it was you know a confluence of things

32:17
that have happened that are causing

32:18
supply chain disruptions and inflation

32:22
and it has happened before

32:24
and it will smooth out so when we think

32:28
about

32:29
the last 10 years up until this past

32:32
year we had significantly below average

32:35
inflation and so if we had a decade of

32:38
above average inflation when i stepped

32:41
back and i look at the 20-year view i'm

32:44
still

32:44
within the long-term projections or

32:47
averages that that we might use and when

32:50
we're looking at financial plans we're

32:52
looking at the long view

32:54
and we get so focused on what does our

32:58
account statement say today

33:01
and we're concerned with

33:03
how do we manage this portfolio of

33:07
assets and things that you own to

33:09
deliver a reliable stream of cash flow

33:12
over potentially 30 or more years in

33:15
retirement

33:16
it is a very different answer if i'm a a

33:19
bank that needs to mark my assets to

33:21
market and has certain requirements to

33:25
to report

33:26
i might need my balance sheet to stay x

33:29
at the end of every quarter so it might

33:31
be really important what my account

33:33
balance says today

33:35
but for a consumer that needs cash flow

33:38
over 20 or 30 years that shouldn't be

33:41
the primary measuring metric it it makes

33:44
us focus on the wrong thing

33:46
the ability to deliver sustainable cash

33:48
flow is the primary metric that's why

33:51
annuities can be a great addition

33:54
you wouldn't put all your money in it

33:55
but when you start to layer in

33:57
guaranteed cash flow to other types of

34:00
assets it actually can increase the

34:02
security of your portfolio the

34:04
sustainability can help you weather all

34:06
kinds of risks so people look at the

34:08
wrong metrics and the media of course

34:10
stirs us up the media

34:12
needs page views and if they can trigger

34:15
our emotions right

34:17
they can cause us

34:19
i don't know if you have you seen the uh

34:21
netflix documentary called the social

34:23
dilemma yes

34:26
very disturbing so

34:28
it knows if you stay on an article

34:31
longer so certain types of headlines

34:34
that you stirred up

34:36
and you you start to think oh no i need

34:39
to do something with my money it will

34:41
send you more and more of those

34:42
headlines and it becomes this

34:44
loop that feeds on itself

34:46
and so that benefits the media they get

34:49
paid and the more page views the more

34:50
advertising dollars they get so it's not

34:53
they're not aligned with what's in our

34:55
best interest the way that they share

34:57
information and how they share it to us

34:59
it's not aligned

35:01
no doubt what's new for for dana and

35:03
sensible money um i know that you're

35:06
always trying to as gretzky said skate

35:08
where the puck's gonna be and not behind

35:10
the pot

35:10
and

35:11
what are you what are you doing with the

35:14
firm and yourself

35:16
going forward because i know you're

35:17
always learning you're a consummate

35:19
learner which was what i really like

35:21
about you you're always

35:23
not that you need any more education you

35:25
don't you forgot more than most people

35:26
ever know the point is

35:28
that's your passion what are you doing

35:30
right now with with you in the firm

35:32
yeah great question so at year end we

35:35
started the first round of my own

35:37
succession plan so i had owned a hundred

35:41
percent of sensible money but you're 25

35:43
dana how's that how's that even possible

35:46
you know i turned 50 last year and when

35:48
you were saying you slowed down at 50 i

35:50
was thinking whoa whoa whoa i just took

35:52
a pickle ball

35:53
oh your pickleball you're a pickleball

35:55
harley-davidson okay there's my new

35:57
introduction for you next time there you

35:59
go okay okay

36:01
so new six is so you're what's

36:04
i mean your legacy is in place obviously

36:06
but what's the uh what's the plan

36:09
yeah so

36:10
i own 100 or did own 100 of sensible

36:13
money and

36:14
i have looked and get approached by

36:15
firms all the time to acquire us and i

36:18
have you know been down the path to look

36:20
at a few of those but

36:22
felt like we would lose a lot of what

36:24
makes our firm special and lose our

36:26
ability to customize the work that we do

36:29
and so

36:31
your other option is to you know sell

36:34
internally to build an internal

36:35
succession program and so that's what we

36:38
did created a partnership track and many

36:41
years actually started talking about it

36:42
five years ago and so two of the people

36:45
in our firm cj miller and amy shepard

36:48
each bought five percent from me so i

36:51
still own the remaining 90 of the firm

36:54
and our plan is to continue that by

36:56
selling small increments so that by the

36:58
time i'm 70 i will be down to about 51

37:02
52 ownership

37:04
and at that point you can usually get

37:06
bank financing to to sell out the rest

37:09
so we will have likely other people in

37:12
the firm who will also join as owners

37:15
and it's been awesome it's a huge relief

37:17
on me

37:19
many of our clients even would ask you

37:21
know what's going to happen to the firm

37:24
if something happens to you now i had a

37:26
buy sell in place

37:27
i did everything you're supposed to do

37:29
because one of my nightmares was always

37:32
like something would happen to me and

37:33
the headlines would say you know

37:35
financial planner didn't do her own

37:36
planning

37:39
i didn't want that no you don't want

37:40
that no so i've always you know made

37:43
sure all the right things were in place

37:44
but this feels really good to me it's a

37:47
huge stress off my own shoulders to know

37:49
that there's

37:50
very very capable people who could step

37:52
in if something did happen to me now i

37:55
love what i do i love helping and

37:58
develop young people and growing the

38:00
firm and the profession so i plan to be

38:02
here for the long term but it's really

38:04
nice to know if something should happen

38:06
we're covered

38:08
anything the firm's doing from a

38:10
technology or processes standpoint i

38:13
know you're very high tech

38:15
which i love

38:16
anything new on the horizon are you guys

38:18
just blocking and tackling with what you

38:20
have

38:21
right now we're blocking and tackling

38:23
you know in terms of figuring out how to

38:26
free up some of my capacity that's what

38:28
i'm working on right now so the second

38:30
half of the year i do have some

38:32
technology projects that we want to work

38:34
at to look at

38:36
some better ways to to make the way we

38:38
gather and share information more

38:40
efficient right now in the financial

38:42
services industry it's been this way for

38:44
a decade or more there's so many

38:46
different places you have to put

38:48
information and they don't talk to each

38:49
other seamlessly and it's it's a

38:52
constant struggle and it creates

38:53
inefficiencies it makes it

38:56
harder to train and hire people because

38:57
they have to learn so many different

38:59
things and harder to share the

39:01
information with the client in a

39:02
seamless way and i think there's

39:04
a lot of room for improvement in that

39:07
that when i can free up some of my time

39:09
to really look at some of the tools that

39:11
are out there that that's what's next

39:12
for us in the second half of this year

39:15
is that your passion now because you're

39:16
kind of taking a little bit more of an

39:18
um

39:19
oversight view is trying to make sure

39:22
the process is even better than it is

39:24
which is i'm sure it's hard to do but is

39:26
that what you're always looking at

39:29
it is my passion you know right now we

39:31
have a wait list so we have so many

39:33
people inquiring for our services that

39:36
we cannot keep up

39:38
and so

39:39
when you see that i think what we do is

39:41
so valuable and that's why we have a

39:44
wait list and people tell us all the

39:46
time it was the best decision they made

39:48
and the best money they've spent

39:50
and so then it's well how do i hire and

39:53
train enough people and scale so that we

39:55
can keep up with the demand that's out

39:57
there right and in order to do that we

39:59
have to be efficient and improve the

40:01
processes without sacrificing quality

40:05
so

40:06
it's hard that sounds easy but that's

40:08
really hard it's super hard

40:11
you know we've had people in the past

40:13
that asked if we could lower our pricing

40:15
and we looked at it and we said well

40:16
what should we leave out as a team we

40:18
thought in order for this to take less

40:20
time in order to reduce pricing would

40:22
have to take less time what can we leave

40:24
out and we thought no this is too

40:27
important all of these topics we cover

40:29
are too important to

40:31
one of the biggest decisions you make

40:33
which is retirement one of the biggest

40:35
financial decisions if not the biggest

40:38
financial decision you ever make so

40:40
you know we we said no we don't want to

40:42
leave anything out and obviously people

40:44
are starting to see the value in that

40:46
and so yes we have to make it more

40:48
efficient without sacrificing quality

40:50
and we have to make it easier to get new

40:52
people up to speed and right now it's

40:55
not easy uh for them to get up to speed

40:58
our process is very technically complex

41:00
and so they will train with us for a

41:03
year before they can really start to do

41:04
things on their own without having

41:07
someone double check everything

41:09
for the person that wants to get on that

41:10
waiting list i'm assuming there's a

41:12
process for that but if they want

41:14
i think you had a newsletter

41:16
that you offered or some obviously a lot

41:18
of videos and writings etc how can

41:21
people

41:22
interact without becoming a client and

41:24
get on that how do they get on that

41:25
waiting list

41:26
yeah so they would go to our website

41:28
sensiblemoney.com

41:30
and you can sign up for our newsletter

41:32
at the bottom

41:33
and we don't send you any extra ads we

41:36
don't add you to anyone else's

41:37
subscriber list we're big on that you

41:40
can unsubscribe anytime sure uh but in

41:42
that newsletter we we typically send it

41:44
out about once a month and we also will

41:46
announce free webinars that we offer so

41:48
we've got one coming up in june on how

41:50
to make a retirement spending plan we

41:53
usually do about

41:54
five to six webinars per calendar year

41:57
that are always free we put the

41:59
recordings on youtube so you can find

42:01
our youtube channel which is

42:02
sensiblemoney and we'll link we'll link

42:04
to that as well on on our page so

42:07
absolutely yeah we have a ton of free

42:09
classes on there a lot of content on

42:11
there and then there's also a

42:14
schedule a consult button all over on

42:16
our website there's three reports you

42:19
can download but the schedule of consult

42:21
takes you to a set of pre-meeting

42:23
questions and if you do want to get on

42:25
the waiting list you would fill those

42:26
out and i would would write you back and

42:29
let you know what our current wait time

42:31
is we're recording this on april

42:34
1st and um right now we have a wait list

42:37
and we're going to start reaching out on

42:39
april 18th so right after tax season we

42:41
get extra busy during tax season so we

42:43
need our time to be highly responsive to

42:46
our current clients and so we put a hold

42:48
on on everything and if you were our

42:50
client you would appreciate that you

42:51
would say wow that's great yeah

42:54
tell people about your book

42:57
so my book uh control your retirement

42:59
destiny i first wrote in 2012 and then

43:02
updated it i think it was about 2016-17

43:06
uh would love to get a third edition out

43:08
there but i keep being concerned that

43:11
with the changes to the required minimum

43:13
distributions and more changes that

43:14
every time i write it it gets outdated

43:16
so

43:17
you know i'd love a period of certainty

43:19
before i update it

43:21
but uh so wait a minute you're looking

43:23
for a period of certainty in washington

43:25
dc is that what i'm hearing yes good

43:28
okay great yeah so once again

43:30
sensiblemoney.com

43:31
not sensible politics sensible money

43:34
exactly

43:36
sensible politics is too much to hope

43:38
for oh my gosh yeah all right well yeah

43:40
tell them about the book i'm sorry yeah

43:42
so we've had several professors tell us

43:45
they use it uh to teach their class

43:47
financial planning so it's been very

43:49
well received it's got fantastic reviews

43:52
but it walks you through all of the

43:54
different topics we've talked about so

43:56
we talk about annuities and reverse

43:57
mortgages and different tools and

43:59
different metrics you can use and how to

44:01
make a retirement spending plan and then

44:03
i also have a course on uh the great

44:06
courses so it's a lecture series that's

44:09
out there and that was produced and and

44:12
released at the end basically january

44:14
1st of 2021

44:16
and so it

44:17
is a little bit more life cycle oriented

44:20
so we talk about what you should do in

44:22
these different phases of retirement

44:25
right while saving for and then in your

44:27
mid-career phase and then early

44:29
retirement and then later stage

44:30
retirement so very life cycle oriented

44:33
have gotten great great feedback from

44:35
that

44:36
they're very different the lecture

44:38
series you learn a lot you can listen to

44:40
it like a podcast the book has a lot of

44:42
schedules and examples in it so if

44:44
you're a spreadsheet type of person

44:46
people will take the book and then go

44:48
out and build their own spreadsheets off

44:50
some of the models in the book

44:52
so you can go i mean get on the wait

44:54
list why wouldn't you there's no no no

44:56
cost to do that get on the newsletter

44:58
list start start learning

45:00
there's no downside to doing that

45:03
um correct so you know i would i would

45:06
encourage you to do that and and they

45:07
are professionals they're not going to

45:09
chase you and ping yang call you they

45:11
don't do that okay they're pros

45:14
i have people on my podcast that kind of

45:16
like me which are

45:17
listen we're going to give you the best

45:19
information we can if you want to be

45:20
clone of a client that's fine for them

45:21
they have a waiting list but we're not

45:23
going to there's not going to be

45:24
somebody showing up at your doorstep etc

45:27
so you get on the harley

45:30
and you drive to the pickleball

45:32
tournament

45:34
now when i

45:36
pull up the pickleball national

45:37
championships coming up am i going to

45:40
see

45:41
sensible money pickleball national

45:43
championships i think i've got a ways to

45:45
go but that would be kind of fun you're

45:47
giving me the idea here to sponsor

45:49
something like that i don't think that's

45:51
a bad idea dana

45:53
um especially maybe the uh you know the

45:56
warm-up suit

45:58
um as you're warming up is a pic you

46:00
know of course i'm logoed out dana as i

46:02
said for the people on the podcast

46:04
that can't see it i just held up all of

46:06
my logos and dana laughs at me because

46:08
everything i wear is logoed but i want

46:10
the sensible money pickleball

46:12
tournament t-shirt sent to me double

46:16
extra large when that happens i mean why

46:17
wouldn't you sponsor that dan in

46:19
scottsdale arizona

46:21
it's a really really good idea stan

46:25
i'm a marketer you know i'm a marketer

46:27
i'm a brander

46:28
um

46:30
these markets are crazy as you know and

46:33
volatile as you know but they always are

46:34
crazy and volatile as you know

46:37
um what are you keeping your eyes on

46:39
that may that that's not the obvious

46:42
obvious stuff is russia ukraine

46:45
cryptocurrency interest rates midterm

46:48
elections inflation printing of money

46:51
and covet

46:53
throw those out

46:54
what are you looking at if there's

46:56
anything

46:57
yeah so we look at it so differently so

47:00
the typical way that people build

47:02
portfolios is

47:04
to minimize risk and risk is often

47:07
measured as volatility over a relatively

47:09
short time period

47:11
three months you know a calendar quarter

47:13
or a year and so you'll see those risk

47:15
tolerance questionnaires if my portfolio

47:17
was down 10 i would not be concerned i

47:20
would call my advisor i would jump off a

47:22
bridge and so we don't like those risk

47:25
tolerance questions we've never thought

47:27
that they they provided much useful

47:30
information instead

47:32
if you look at it's at risk as measured

47:34
over your lifetime

47:36
you can create

47:38
a portfolio that has you know pimco has

47:42
new material on it that i love they call

47:44
it the income paycheck replacement

47:47
portfolio and the growth portfolio and

47:50
so your paycheck replacement portfolio

47:53
might be funded with

47:55
six to eight years worth of cash flow

47:57
that you need that is intended to

47:59
replace your regular paycheck direct

48:01
deposited to you just like your paycheck

48:03
was

48:04
and your growth portfolio is intended to

48:09
have volatility just as we're discussing

48:11
and then when it when in the volatility

48:13
works your advantage when it's up right

48:15
we think of it as negative but when it's

48:17
upside volatility you sell some of it

48:20
and you use that to replace some of

48:22
what's been withdrawn from the paycheck

48:24
replacement portfolio

48:26
when you do that

48:27
you can start to step back and build

48:30
this growth portfolio

48:32
from a

48:33
well

48:34
what would have held up the best

48:37
over a 7 to 15 year time frame

48:40
so instead of being concerned about risk

48:44
over a calendar quarter or a single year

48:46
i don't have to worry about that i have

48:47
my paycheck replacement portfolio it's

48:49
going to cover me for for eight years

48:52
now how do i build my equity portfolio

48:54
for something that if we got the worst

48:57
decade in equities

48:59
this equity portfolio

49:01
would still have held up better

49:03
than others

49:05
and when you look at that allocation mix

49:07
it is a very different mix

49:10
than what

49:11
reduces volatility on shorter time

49:13
frames so if shorter time frames asset

49:15
classes like real estate and commodities

49:18
and gold will add a lot of value in

49:20
minimizing short-term volatility

49:23
but when you look at volatility over

49:25
longer time periods they don't add value

49:27
things that that hold up better in bad

49:30
time periods over long time frames or

49:32
things like small cap value

49:34
emerging markets international small cap

49:37
value so it leads to a very different

49:40
mix so

49:41
when you you know think about what we're

49:43
looking at we're always looking at is it

49:45
the right time to

49:47
sell some of our growth portfolio and

49:49
replenish some of what's gone into our

49:52
paycheck replacement some of what's come

49:53
out of that we did a lot of that in 2021

49:56
and now things have already recovered

49:59
amazingly well from from the volatility

50:01
at the start of the the russia invasion

50:04
and so once again we're looking at okay

50:06
now could be a good time to sell some

50:08
growth and refinish and that's what we

50:11
focus on is that process of when is it

50:13
the right time to to replenish that

50:15
paycheck portfolio

50:17
forget black swan it's called sensible

50:19
swan

50:20
investing i just trademarked that by the

50:23
way

50:24
nice

50:26
dana it's i mean obviously it's it's

50:28
always the time flies when we talk i

50:30
mean

50:31
we were we were discussing what are we

50:33
going to talk about i don't know let's

50:34
just talk i mean we always we always

50:35
just kind of go down the path and it

50:37
makes so much sense and people love when

50:39
you're on but as you know at the very

50:41
end of every podcast i do something

50:42
called the mic drop moment

50:44
so that i'm going to throw you the mic

50:46
you're going to catch it and then you're

50:48
going to say something unbelievable

50:51
as we go out of this program and then

50:52
you're going to drop it so mic drop

50:54
moment throw the mic to dana on spock

50:56
superstar dana go

50:59
i am going to win a pickleball

51:02
tournament in 2023.

51:04
that's it

51:06
sounds good to me listen um i really

51:09
appreciate you being on

51:10
the fun with annuities podcast which by

51:12
the way dana it's the number one annuity

51:14
podcast on the planet but it's also one

51:16
of the fastest growing financial

51:18
podcasts on the planet and you know why

51:19
is because we have people like you on

51:21
that make me look good

51:23
and i hope you're going to join us uh in

51:25
the future again i wish you the best

51:27
with your harley davidson writing and

51:29
your pickleball playing

51:31
and i want to thank every single person

51:33
that's out there listening to us on all

51:34
major podcast platforms and watching us

51:37
on the fun with annuities youtube

51:38
channel i will see you

51:40
next week

51:46
thanks for listening to fun with

51:48
annuities please hit the subscribe

51:50
button and make sure to go to my site at

51:52
the annuityman.com

51:54
where you can run your own spea dia and

51:57
culat quotes and see a live feed of the

51:59
best mega fix rates in the country and

52:02
even get indexed and income writer

52:04
quotes as well

52:05
you can also sign up for my six annuity

52:08
owners manual books and i'll ship them

52:10
for free and under no obligation i also

52:13
encourage you to schedule a one-on-one

52:15
call with me stan the annuity man so we

52:18
can have a full discussion of your

52:20
specific situation it will be the best

52:23
brutally factual and truthful advice you

52:26
will ever get and that's one guarantee

52:28
you should definitely take advantage of

52:30
so join me next time for the number one

52:32
annuity podcast on the planet

52:35
fun

52:36
with annuities

52:40
[Music]

52:51
you