Christine Benz: Avoiding Blind Spots in Your Retirement Portfolio Planning (From the Vault)

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Welcome to Fun with Annuities, where

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every single week I welcome a celebrity

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guest expert that can help you maximize

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chapter 2 of your life. Listen, learn,

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Let's get to it.

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Welcome to Fun with Annuities, the

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number one annuity podcast on the

0:32
planet. I'm your host, Stan the Annuity

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Man, America's annuity agent. I want to

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welcome everyone listening to us on the

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on all the podcast platforms. And also

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remember, I have two YouTube channels.

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One Stan the Annuity Man YouTube

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channel, which has up to 400 product

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informative and non-salesy about annuity

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with Annuities, has its own YouTube

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channel which where you can go and and

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view the guest and myself interacting

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and the facial expressions and all that

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good stuff. But I don't want to waste

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any time because today's guest is a true

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superstar. Her name is Christine Benz.

1:05
And let me tell you a little bit about

1:06
her. She is the director of personal

1:08
finance for Morning Star. You know what

1:11
Morning Star is. And a senior columnist

1:13
for Morningstar.com as well. Her primary

1:16
focus is on retirement and portfolio

1:19
planning for individual investors, which

1:20
is the reason that you're listening. Uh

1:22
she's she also co-hosts a podcast for

1:25
Morning Star. It's called The Long View.

1:27
I encourage you to listen to that

1:28
because they they bring in people and

1:31
interview them, you know, thought

1:32
leaders and in the investing and

1:34
personal finance space. Couple things

1:36
about Christine that you need to know.

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In 2020, Baron's named her to its

1:40
inaugural list of the 100 most

1:43
influential women in finance. and she

1:44
also appeared on that list in 2021 as

1:46
well and and she's going to be on that

1:48
list for infinity [laughter]

1:51
in 2021. Baron's also named her as one

1:53
of the the the 10 most influential women

1:56
in wealth management. You can just

1:58
probably remove the women. She's

2:00
probably the one of the most 10

2:01
influential people in wealth management.

2:04
She's al also the author of a book

2:06
called the 30 minute money solutions, a

2:09
step-by-step guide to managing your

2:10
finances, which I encourage you to read.

2:13
She also co-authored a book called

2:14
Morning Stars Guide to Mutual Funds,

2:17
which is the five-star strategies for

2:18
success. That's kind of the underlying

2:20
title, which you know, it's been a

2:22
bestseller since 2003, and she put out

2:24
the second edition and helped do that in

2:26
2005. Pretty interesting background from

2:28
an educational standpoint. Christine

2:29
holds a b a bachelor's of education, uh,

2:32
a bachelor's degree in political science

2:34
in Russian and East European studies

2:36
from the University of Illinois. I think

2:37
that's that's really fascinating. She's

2:40
also a board member of the John C. Bogle

2:42
Center for Financial Literacy and is

2:44
also a member of what's called the Alpha

2:46
Group, which consists of the top thought

2:47
leaders in wealth management uh across

2:50
the country. Now, when she has free

2:52
time, which is sounds like she doesn't

2:54
have a ton, but when she does, she works

2:56
with underprivileged women to improve

2:57
their understanding of personal finance

3:00
concepts, which is fantastic. Now, on my

3:02
site at theanuityman.com, we are going

3:04
to have links to her archives that are

3:07
on morningstar.com where you can read I

3:09
mean, she's a great writer. can read her

3:11
stuff and we're also going to have a

3:12
link to her podcast replays as well. I

3:16
could keep going. I mean that I

3:17
synopsized the bio, believe me. But I

3:20
want to welcome Christine Benz to Fun

3:22
with Annuities. Welcome Christine.

3:24
Stan, thank you so much. Gosh, that was

3:26
such a nice introduction. I really

3:28
appreciate it and I'm happy to be here

3:30
today.

3:30
Well, you've earned it obviously. So,

3:32
let's just jump right in. Um, you know,

3:34
you're very very passionate about um

3:37
retirement portfolio planning. What are

3:40
some of the reasons that you're so

3:42
passionate about that? I know that you

3:43
have told me that I I wrote them all

3:45
down, but I want you to tell the people

3:46
why, you know, why this is such a

3:48
driving force for you on a daily basis.

3:51
Sure. Well, I would start with saying

3:53
that it's personal for me because I have

3:56
helped older adults in my life through

3:58
this process. My parents, my in-laws, um

4:02
both my husbands and my dads have since

4:05
passed away and and my mom has passed

4:06
away as well. I still have my

4:07
mother-in-law, but I've helped them

4:09
through this process and through that

4:11
really began to recognize

4:14
that retirement deumulation is so much

4:17
more complicated than it was a couple of

4:20
decades ago, certainly 30 or 40 years

4:22
ago, where you have more and more people

4:25
like myself who are retiring without the

4:27
benefit of pensions. Uh more and more uh

4:31
folks will be coming into retirement

4:33
without a pension. But then you also

4:35
have this very low yield environment and

4:38
that has driven some retirees especially

4:40
I would to generalize a little bit some

4:43
of the older retirees

4:45
tend to gravitate to very income

4:48
ccentric portfolios they quite

4:50
reasonably want to try to subsist on

4:52
whatever yield their portfolio kicks

4:55
off. The odd thing about that today is

4:58
that if you or were to structure a

5:00
portfolio strictly for yield, you end up

5:02
with a pretty risky portfolio. So there

5:04
are the challenges of the current

5:06
environment. Another reason I'm

5:08
attracted to this space is that I am

5:11
involved in financial education

5:13
generally and one thing I know from

5:15
having worked with various groups is

5:17
that people are receptive to learn at

5:21
point of purchase sort of when they have

5:23
to make a decision about something. So,

5:25
you know, if it's a 401k investor, if

5:27
you give them a little bit of

5:28
information about how to make a sane

5:31
allocation within a 401k plan, they'll

5:33
be good to go and they'll listen to you.

5:36
Same goes for retirees. They need to

5:38
figure this out. If they are getting to

5:41
retirement, they need to figure out how

5:43
to extract cash flows from their

5:45
portfolios. They need to figure out how

5:47
much they can safely take out without

5:49
overspending. So, they're incredibly

5:51
receptive. I speak to these groups of

5:54
retirees and they are so engaged. There

5:56
are no sleepers in the audience when I

5:59
talk about retirement planning because

6:00
they really have a need to know this

6:03
information. Um, and then I guess

6:05
another reason why I like kind of being

6:07
in the um, public space to talk about

6:11
these issues is that I think that

6:14
unfortunately there's a little bit of a

6:15
tendency in the financial services

6:17
industry to make things a more

6:19
complicated than they need to be. And so

6:22
I like being a voice of uh, reason in

6:26
terms of saying it doesn't have to be

6:28
really complicated. You can do this in a

6:30
slightly simpler way. So those are some

6:33
of the highlights of why I like um being

6:36
in this space. And I guess just on

6:38
another personal note um the I know that

6:42
um cognitive decline is a major issue

6:44
among older adults. We had we

6:46
experienced that with with my dad later

6:48
in life and I was so happy that I was um

6:51
his investment buddy during his later

6:54
years and I was it was really pretty

6:56
seamless for us where I was able to take

6:58
over my parents investment plans. I know

7:01
a lot of older adults don't necessarily

7:03
have that trusted adult child who

7:06
understands investments. So, I like to

7:09
do education about this and I like to

7:11
help people create a a plan that could

7:15
effectively manage itself if need be for

7:18
a time or you know for the rest of their

7:20
lives. So, those are just just some of

7:22
the highlights of why I like to talk

7:24
about this area so much.

7:26
When you say the word de accumulation,

7:28
you know, we live in a world where we've

7:30
been taught accumulation. So when you

7:32
say the word de accumulation, I think a

7:34
lot of people instinctively reflex

7:36
because in essence, what they're what

7:38
they that says to them is my money is

7:41
going to decrease. I do me a favor and

7:44
do the do the listeners and viewers a

7:47
favor and tell them that deumulation's

7:49
okay and why

7:51
it is. And um you know I I do think that

7:54
many retirees do have that reflexive

7:56
desire to not touch their principle to

7:59
try to live off of yield. Um, but I

8:03
guess that my point is and the

8:05
philosophy that I bring to this is that

8:07
if you create the best possible

8:11
portfolio that you can with a sane mix

8:13
of risk and reward characteristics, that

8:16
portfolio doesn't know whether your

8:18
withdrawals are coming from income or

8:20
they're coming from selling appreciated

8:23
securities. What matters is that you are

8:26
not taking out too much and that you're

8:29
also maintaining that portfolio's

8:31
risk-reward characteristics as the years

8:34
go by. That's really the name of the

8:36
game. And I wouldn't get overly hung up

8:38
on never touching principle because

8:41
sometimes touching principle is actually

8:43
the right thing to do. So right now, for

8:45
example, we've had this tremendous run

8:48
in the equity market. My view has been

8:51
that if you're retired and you're

8:53
looking at what are still very low

8:55
yields today, your cash flows for at

8:57
least the next couple of years are

9:00
hiding in plain sight in terms of

9:02
harvesting some of those appreciated

9:04
equity securities, putting that money

9:06
into safe investments, probably cash,

9:09
short-term bonds, but essentially

9:11
setting aside your cash flows for the

9:13
next couple of years, and simultaneously

9:15
you are reducing risk in your investment

9:18
portfolio. So my view is that it's

9:21
perfectly okay to pull from those

9:24
appreciated positions. In fact, that

9:26
very much should be part of your

9:28
deumulation plan. And you shouldn't

9:30
worry too much about doing so if in the

9:33
end you're able to maintain your

9:36
portfolio and and maintain a a

9:38
sustainable withdrawal rate and make

9:40
sure that your money lasts throughout

9:41
your retirement years. That's a that's a

9:43
great explan explanation of deumulation

9:45
because I think that's almost a curse

9:47
word with a lot of people because they

9:48
they they were they remember Jimmy

9:51
Carter yields, you know, and I always

9:53
tell people, you know, Jimmy Carter's

9:54
building houses in Georgia, hopefully

9:55
hopefully he's still alive um at the

9:57
time of this taping, but um you're not

9:59
going to probably see those yields

10:01
anymore, those those 12% CD. So that's

10:03
tough for people. Um even though if you

10:06
look at the the 10-year Treasury

10:07
equivalents across the globe, we're

10:09
still pretty high. Um but high high

10:11
right now feels low

10:13
from a yield standpoint. One of the

10:15
I was doing some research on your

10:16
writings and it was fascinating. Um

10:19
you had a you had an article and and

10:21
I've seen you speak on this on some of

10:22
the blind spots that people um run into

10:26
and people miss when it comes to

10:28
retirement. And I think this is so

10:29
important because you know with with

10:31
over 10,000 baby boomers hitting the age

10:33
of 65 every single day. I mean it's a

10:35
demographic title wave. That's what I

10:37
call it,

10:38
right? Um, what are some of these blind

10:40
spots that people need to be aware of?

10:43
Um, and again, you don't have to write

10:44
it down everybody, especially if you're

10:46
driving or on that treadmill. I mean,

10:47
that you're going to We'll have these

10:48
replays up, but but kind of go through

10:50
the blind spots. I think I was writing

10:52
them down. I think you had around six.

10:54
You might have more. Can you cover

10:55
those?

10:56
Sure. Sure. So, um, I have a

10:58
presentation that's kind of structured

11:00
along these lines. And um one of them

11:03
that I start out the presentation with

11:05
is retirement date risk. And I think

11:08
that that's often times not discussed

11:10
very much. But the bottom line is that

11:13
even though we might have this very what

11:15
we think is a very well-conceived plan

11:17
of when we might expect to retire. Um in

11:22
reality when we look at the data and my

11:23
colleague David Blanchett who I think is

11:25
kind of one of the leading lights in

11:27
retirement research has looked at

11:29
people's stated anticipated retirement

11:32
dates and when they actually retired.

11:34
And what his research shows is that

11:37
we're not very good at this. We tend to

11:39
overestimate our ability to continue

11:41
working or our desire to continue

11:44
working. We we might say well I plan to

11:46
you know retire when I'm 69 or something

11:48
like that. When we look at the data, we

11:50
see that there's a gap that people

11:52
oftentimes are retiring earlier than

11:55
they expected to. And there are variety

11:57
of reasons why this might be. We know

11:59
that ageism is a thing in the workplace.

12:02
We know that older adults sometimes

12:04
encounter health issues or their spouse

12:07
encounters health issues that makes it

12:08
difficult for them to continue

12:10
or their parents

12:12
or their parents. Um, so a lot of

12:14
different forces can work against your

12:18
desire to work longer specifically. So

12:21
we see that there's typically a gap

12:23
where people are often retiring earlier

12:25
than expected.

12:27
So that's kind of a risk factor for the

12:29
size of the portfolio,

12:33
but if you are overwithdrawing over a

12:36
longer time period, that is a risk

12:39
factor. So that's one of the key blind

12:42
spots that I would point to and and to

12:45
me that really

12:47
argues for thinking through well if I'm

12:50
not able to continue working until that

12:53
anticipated retirement date what's my

12:55
backup plan what's my plan B and I think

12:58
it's worth while for all of us really

13:01
through throughout our careers to be

13:03
thinking about well if this thing if

13:05
whatever I'm doing doesn't work for me u

13:08
due to workplace issues or lifestyle

13:10
issues or health issues. Could I

13:13
continue to earn some sort of income in

13:16
the meantime? And so I I that is sort of

13:19
a a piece of counsel that I would bring

13:21
to this and also just be aware that you

13:23
don't have as much control over that

13:25
retirement date as you might wish to

13:27
believe you have. So, is there there a

13:29
strategy or strategies that you would

13:32
tell people to do specifically if um and

13:34
you covered it a little bit about, hey,

13:36
I'm going to retire at 69 or 65. It's

13:39
tough, you know, especially because you

13:41
don't know where markets are going to go

13:42
or interest rates are going to go. How

13:44
do you advise people to be flexible with

13:46
that retirement date risk planning?

13:49
Well, so I think thinking about what

13:51
your backup plan is, certainly nurturing

13:53
your human capital and making sure that

13:56
you are continuing to prove yourself

13:58
valuable to your organization throughout

14:01
your career. I think we've all,

14:03
especially those of us who are home

14:04
office workers, we've all sort of had a

14:07
very uh quick ramp up into being savvy

14:11
about all different matters of

14:12
technology that we we've all had to be

14:14
our own IT staff. I think that's been

14:17
great. So continuing to nurture your

14:19
human capital, also thinking hard about

14:22
insurance planning. A real wild card is

14:25
in this is if you are premedicare and

14:28
somehow separated from your employer

14:30
provided health care earlier than you

14:32
anticipated, right?

14:33
Thinking through your plan for that is

14:36
absolutely essential. So those are some

14:38
of the key things from sort of a plan

14:41
uh aspect uh to to help protect

14:44
yourself.

14:46
One of the one of the uh risk and blind

14:48
spots was sequence of return risk that

14:51
you that you mentioned. And when people

14:53
typically hear that, they've heard it

14:55
before, but can you dumb it down? I

14:59
always tell people, you know, if you

15:00
can't explain it to a nine-year-old, no

15:02
offense to nine-year-olds, you either

15:04
shouldn't buy it or you, you know, it's

15:05
not simplified enough. Simplify it down.

15:08
Sequence of return risk for the people

15:09
out there that aren't really sure what

15:11
that is,

15:12
right? It it's a a concept that

15:14
retirement researchers call talk about

15:17
and basically the risk is that you may

15:20
retire into a not so great market

15:23
environment. So when we think about the

15:26
market environment today, what do we

15:28
know? Well, we know that yields are

15:29
pretty low. We've talked about that a

15:31
little bit. We also know that equity

15:33
valuations because we have had this

15:35
longunning bull market, equity

15:38
valuations, stock prices aren't what

15:40
they once were. And so it's risky if you

15:43
come into retirement and you do

15:46
encounter a weak market environment for

15:48
whatever reason. Inflation I think is

15:50
potentially a consideration today as

15:52
well. The risk is that if you

15:54
overwithdraw

15:56
during that period that the market is

15:58
down, whether that's, you know, six

16:01
months or whether it's two and a half

16:02
years, whatever, if you're taking too

16:04
much from your portfolio during that

16:07
time and that time occurs in the early

16:09
years of your retirement, well, that

16:12
leaves less of your portfolio in place

16:14
to recover and to rebound when stocks

16:18
eventually do. So, it's a big risk

16:20
factor for new retirees. If you're an

16:23
older retiree, if you're someone who is

16:26
80 and you've been retired 15 years,

16:28
well, guess what? You've won. You have

16:30
retired into a pretty good market

16:31
environment. It's the new retirees who I

16:34
think need to be cautious and need to be

16:36
thinking about, well, what's my plan in

16:38
that instance? How do I structure my

16:41
plan so that I can protect myself

16:44
against that possibility of retiring

16:46
into a weak market?

16:48
And it sequence of return risk is

16:50
something you obviously can't control.

16:51
similar to dovetailing into one of the

16:53
other blind spots, which is the the low

16:55
yield environment that we're in that um

16:58
a lot of the savers and the CD buyers

17:00
are scratching their heads because the

17:02
the yield isn't there. The coupons

17:04
aren't there.

17:05
You know, no one knows where interest

17:07
rates are going to go, including

17:08
Christine Vince. She'll be the first

17:09
[laughter] one to tell you that. She'll

17:10
pound the table and tell you that. But

17:12
what's your advice for people in in a

17:15
environment that's low and it doesn't

17:16
seem like, you know, the government's

17:19
painted themselves into a little bit of

17:20
a corner printing all this money. So

17:21
raising interest rates, they're going to

17:22
raise those payments on themselves. So

17:24
it'd be like me and you raising our

17:25
mortgage rates, right? What's your

17:27
advice to people here other than grin

17:31
and bear, right? What is it? What do you

17:33
tell people? Well, I think it it's

17:36
worthwhile to rethink why you hold safer

17:38
assets in your portfolio and why you

17:41
just sort of decide to accept lower

17:44
yields. That the key reason is that yes,

17:48
cash and bond, high quality bonds are

17:52
there to provide you with yield, but

17:54
they're also there to be the ballast for

17:56
your equity portfolio. They are there to

17:58
be the assets that you could spend

18:01
through. If you comehead come into

18:03
retirement and you encounter a weak

18:06
equity market, you have set yourself up

18:08
with safe assets that you could spend

18:11
through before you need to touch the

18:14
equity assets. So I think re sort of

18:16
rethinking the role of safe assets that

18:20
income production is less of their value

18:23
today. That may change in the future.

18:25
right now their key value is safety a

18:29
and providing that cushion of some of

18:32
some sort of an equity market shock. So

18:35
that would be my advice. My advice

18:36
absolutely would be not to gravitate to

18:39
very high-risk high yield securities as

18:43
a big portion of your portfolio. We

18:45
might have them around the margins like

18:46
five or 10% in high yield bonds or

18:49
emerging markets bonds but definitely

18:51
not the main course because what when we

18:54
look at assets like that whether junk

18:56
bonds or or emerging markets bonds what

18:59
we see is very equity like performance

19:02
we see them behave in sympathy with the

19:04
equity market. That's not what you're

19:05
going for for this portion of your

19:07
portfolio. You're going for safety and

19:09
you have to contend with and accept very

19:12
low yields on offer today.

19:15
Which leads us to the grill in the room

19:16
and your blind spot that you list

19:18
sometimes in your presentations as

19:19
number four, which is inflation.

19:21
Yes.

19:21
Um, which people are very tuned into

19:25
because even though you hear government

19:27
officials sometimes say that there

19:29
really is an inflation, if you're buying

19:31
lumber and if you're buying food and if

19:32
you're buying gas and you know, you're

19:34
saying, "Wait a minute, I think there

19:35
might be." [laughter]

19:37
Obviously, in the annuity world, as you

19:39
know, um, annuity companies don't give

19:40
inflation increases away. they just

19:42
ratchet down the payments if you're

19:43
buying lifetime income. That didn't mean

19:45
it's good or bad, but that that also

19:46
means that there's no perfect solution

19:49
to inflation, just really bad sales

19:51
pitches, as I say. Um, what's your

19:54
what's your thought and advice for

19:56
people to think about, address, and and

20:00
strategize around inflation?

20:02
Yeah, it's a huge question today, Stan,

20:04
and a year ago, I wouldn't have been so

20:07
concerned with it, but we are beginning

20:09
to see inflation tick up. And I think,

20:11
you know, the big question is whether

20:12
this is just sort of a natural part of

20:14
this emergence from the lockdown that

20:18
we've been in for the better part of a

20:20
year, for more than a year. Um, but I

20:22
think from a retirement standpoint, you

20:24
think about protecting against inflation

20:26
in a few different ways. First, you

20:28
think about your own spending patterns

20:30
and do a little bit of um research, a

20:34
little bit of reconnaissance on what

20:36
your spending has looked like, what

20:38
categories you tend to spend on. One

20:40
thing we know about older adults is that

20:42
they spend more on health care than the

20:44
general population. We we have

20:47
historically seen health care inflation

20:50
rise at a faster clip than the general

20:53
inflation rate. So take a just take a

20:55
close look at your spending habits. In

20:58
some areas you may be a loser like

20:59
health care. Uh in other areas like

21:02
energy costs you may be a winner because

21:05
you're not commuting. You're not driving

21:07
as much as you were when you were

21:08
working. So kind of just think about

21:09
your spending categories and then think

21:13
about your income sources in retirement.

21:16
So if you are, you know, on the really

21:19
positive end of the spectrum from the

21:21
standpoint of inflation and you have

21:23
sort of a a a

21:25
pension that provides you full inflation

21:27
protection and that pension is supplying

21:30
you with all the income that you need,

21:32
well, you're in great shape. And then at

21:34
the other end of the spectrum would be

21:35
the retiree who doesn't have any of

21:37
those in inflation protected income

21:40
sources and has a really safe portfolio

21:43
that he or she is pulling from for all

21:45
of the income. Well, that's someone

21:46
who's really vulnerable because their

21:49
purchasing power is just going to be

21:50
gobbled up by inflation. Most of us in

21:53
retirement fall somewhere in between

21:55
those two poles where they we have some

21:58
inflation insulation. If we're getting

22:00
social security, for example, we might

22:02
not agree that the little increase that

22:05
we get on our social security benefit is

22:07
sufficient, but that portion of our

22:09
income is inflation protected. It's

22:12
really the portfolio that we need to

22:14
concern ourselves with to make sure that

22:16
that portion of our withdrawals is in

22:20
some fashion insulated against

22:21
inflation. So, when we think about

22:24
protecting a portfolio against

22:25
inflation, we think about a couple of

22:27
key categories. One would be to make

22:29
sure that you have

22:31
stocks in your portfolio because even

22:34
though stocks aren't any sort of direct

22:36
hedge against inflation, when we look at

22:38
the asset classes with the ability to

22:40
outearn inflation over time, stocks very

22:43
much fit the bill. Whether they will do

22:45
so over the next couple of years or the

22:47
next five years, open question. But over

22:49
longer time periods, we see a pretty

22:51
good ability for stocks to beat

22:54
inflation. So, you want to make sure you

22:55
have stocks. But on the fixed income

22:57
side, I think it's also worth looking at

23:00
a category called Treasury inflation

23:02
protected securities or sometimes called

23:04
TIPS, right?

23:05
And tips are issued by the Treasury, but

23:08
they have a little bit of spin on the

23:10
ball in terms of offering an inflation

23:13
adjustment to your principal value,

23:15
which in turns turn affects your yield

23:18
when inflation trends up. So my

23:22
colleagues at Morning Star Investment

23:24
Management put together asset allocation

23:26
programs within a a person's fixed

23:30
income allocation. They typically

23:32
recommend a retired person's fixed

23:33
income allocation. They typically

23:35
recommend like a 20 to 30% allocation to

23:39
Treasury inflation protected securities.

23:42
The idea is that you are protecting the

23:45
purchasing power on on that portion of

23:47
your portfolio. Some retirees might say,

23:50
"Well, why not just have my whole fixed

23:52
income allocation in TIPS?" Well, the

23:54
risk is that that's not very

23:55
diversified. So, even though Treasury

23:58
bonds and Treasury inflation protected

24:00
securities are the most creditw worthy

24:03
bonds that you can find, um they tend to

24:06
be somewhat interest rate sensitive. So,

24:09
you'd probably want to diversify to

24:11
include some corporate bonds, some

24:13
agencybacked bonds, some other

24:15
securities to ensure that your portfolio

24:18
uh your fixed income portfolio is a

24:20
little bit better diversified. But those

24:22
are some of the key asset classes I

24:24
would think about. Some of the other

24:26
asset classes that people might add

24:27
would would include things like

24:29
commodities or commodities tracking

24:32
exchange traded funds, precious metals,

24:35
either um uh uh an ETF like GLD or

24:40
perhaps some of the precious metals

24:42
mining companies. And here I would

24:44
recommend owning some type of a mutual

24:46
fund or an ETF, exchange traded fund

24:48
that does this. And finally, real

24:50
estate, I think, is another asset class

24:52
that historically has shown some ability

24:56
to protect against inflation. And the

24:58
reason is pretty intuitive that when

25:00
rates are increasing and as a REIT

25:04
owner, you're able to participate and

25:05
benefit from that. Well, that's also the

25:08
time when inflation is typically running

25:10
up broadly. So, those are some sort of

25:12
non-core assets that I might think

25:15
about, but again, keeping them to very

25:17
small positions because they're quite

25:19
volatile as standalone holdings. You

25:21
definitely don't want to have giant

25:24
positions in a category like commodities

25:27
or precious metals.

25:29
It's all about allocation and

25:30
proportion. And then you you preach that

25:32
with your your writings and what you've

25:34
done uh for for decades at at Morning

25:36
Star. one of the kind of the new

25:38
gorillas in the room and I read a couple

25:39
of recent articles that you have have

25:42
written on this topic is health care and

25:45
long-term care and obviously again the

25:47
demographic title of people hitting age

25:49
65 and and we're living longer etc.

25:53
tell tell people why this is important,

25:55
why long-term care coverage and that

25:57
transfer of risk type coverage they

26:00
should be looking at. Why why should

26:02
they do that?

26:03
Such an important topic, Stan. And um

26:06
I'll just start with talking about

26:07
health care expenses in retirement more

26:09
broadly. Fidelity annually puts out

26:12
these um estimates of what a 65year-old

26:16
couple who is retiring will spend over I

26:21
I believe it's like a 25 or 30 year

26:23
period. And the most recent information

26:26
that I saw was roughly $300,000. So

26:29
these are various premiums that they're

26:32
paying. These are out-ofpocket expenses

26:35
and so forth. So even after you're

26:36
covered by Medicare, you still have some

26:38
health care costs. And what we see when

26:40
we look at those health care costs is

26:42
that they're not linear. They're not the

26:43
same yearbyear. They tend to trend up

26:47
later in retirement. So Fidelity's

26:49
$300,000 estimate does not include

26:51
long-term care costs. That's just all

26:53
the other stuff that um people pay. So,

26:56
I think it's worth staying mindful about

26:59
those costs and certainly making sure

27:00
that you are incorporating them into

27:03
your budget and into your spending plan,

27:05
but also recognize that there's

27:07
tremendous variability in those costs.

27:09
So, giving some hard thought to what

27:12
your health situation is, what your

27:14
spouse's health situation is, where you

27:17
live is a big determinant of your

27:19
out-ofpocket health care outlay. So if

27:22
you live in a high-cost part of the

27:23
country, if you live in Chicago or LA or

27:26
some other city where high where costs

27:28
are high at large, you'll pay more for

27:31
health care. If you live in a less urban

27:33
area, you'll tend to pay less. So give

27:36
some thought to that. Make sure you're

27:37
factoring it into your budget. Also,

27:40
long-term care is uh the real wild card

27:43
in my view for many retirement plans. In

27:46
fact, when I'm out speaking, if there is

27:48
a topic that will send the room up for

27:50
grabs because it gives people so much

27:52
angst, it's this. People wonder how to

27:56
contend with long-term care costs. So,

27:58
these are costs that are not covered by

28:01
Medicare. They are costs that many older

28:03
adults incur if they encounter cognitive

28:06
decline or even if they just simply

28:08
start needing help around the home to

28:12
make meals or whatever it might be. um

28:15
to you know to help them shower or a lot

28:17
of um situations can occur. The idea is

28:21
that these costs are not going to be

28:24
covered by Medicare nor will they be

28:26
covered by your supplemental policy that

28:28
you may have purchased, right?

28:29
You need to create a plan for what these

28:32
long-term care costs might be and also

28:34
how you might contend with them. And so

28:36
it's super tricky because I often speak

28:40
to retirees who thought they were doing

28:42
exactly the right thing by purchasing

28:45
long-term care insurance. And what we've

28:47
seen is that the marketplace is pretty

28:49
troubled. That unfortunately these

28:51
policies that were priced 20 years ago

28:54
did not adequately incorporate long-term

28:57
care usage. Um, and they didn't

29:00
incorporate this very low yield

29:02
environment that we find ourselves in,

29:04
which has afflicted insurance companies

29:07
as well because they can't really earn

29:08
much on the premiums that they've been

29:10
able to take in if they want to be able

29:13
to make uh make their policy payments.

29:16
So, um, that's the the troubling part of

29:20
this. The easy answer 20 years ago might

29:23
have been to purchase some sort of a

29:26
long-term care policy. people have seen

29:28
their premiums really increase

29:30
to account for the fact that it's a

29:32
pretty troubled marketplace. So, I would

29:34
really um when thinking about this, when

29:37
approaching this risk, I would kind of

29:39
think about my own situation and sort

29:41
myself into one of three groupings. So

29:44
for people who don't have a lot in re in

29:47
retirement assets, they will probably to

29:50
the extent that they have long-term care

29:52
needs, they will be covered by Medicaid

29:55
and and Medicaid is the largest payer of

29:57
long-term care expenses in the US. Many

30:00
people end up needing Medicaid provided

30:03
care. So for people without a lot of uh

30:07
wealth that will be their um be their

30:10
strategy that they probably shouldn't

30:12
overly worry about it. Now it's worth

30:15
mentioning that you need to essentially

30:18
deplete most of your assets which could

30:21
leave your spouse um needing some sort

30:23
of u financial assistance in the

30:25
meantime. But that's sort of that group.

30:28
And then at the other ex extreme would

30:30
be very wealthy people who you know when

30:32
they look at their portfolios they have

30:34
more than enough to last during their

30:36
lifetimes and they can also cover an

30:39
extended long-term care need comfortably

30:42
out of their assets. I'm sometimes asked

30:44
well how much asked how much would I

30:47
need to have in assets to put me in this

30:49
other area where I'm self-funding

30:52
long-term care expenses. And my point is

30:55
I can't tell you that. I can't tell you

30:57
a dollar amount because I don't know

30:58
what you're spending from your

30:59
portfolio. Right?

31:00
If you have, you know, a $2 million

31:03
portfolio, but you are spending

31:06
too heavily from it, well, you probably

31:08
should have long-term care insurance.

31:11
So, um, get some guidance on that. If

31:14
you're a higher net worth person with a

31:17
sizable portfolio, make sure that you do

31:20
have adequate assets to self-fund

31:22
long-term care. And then my view is if

31:25
if you have determined that you have

31:26
enough, go ahead and segregate those

31:29
assets from your spendable assets to

31:31
ensure that you're not considering them

31:33
part of your spending plan. If you're a

31:35
young retiree and that's your plan to

31:37
self-fund long-term care, segregate

31:40
those assets. You'd probably want to

31:42
invest them pretty aggressively because

31:44
the chance of having a long-term care

31:46
need earlier in in your life is pretty

31:49
low. Um, and then that middle group is

31:52
the the group who I think is the best uh

31:56
candidate for some sort of insurance

31:58
product to help ensure against this

32:00
risk. You can still buy long-term care

32:03
policies, but increasingly what have

32:06
come on strong are these hybrid type

32:08
asset based Yeah. They call them

32:10
assetbased coverage. Yes.

32:11
Yes. which Stan, you know more about

32:13
these types of products than I do, but

32:15
it's typically either a life insurance

32:18
policy or an annuity with a long-term

32:20
care rider bolted on. And those can be

32:24
attractive options, especially in my

32:26
opinion, for people who had life

32:29
insurance and they had that need to

32:31
protect their dependence when their

32:33
dependents were younger. But if they're

32:35
older and they've accumulated sufficient

32:38
assets, life insurance may no longer be

32:41
a a big concern for them. Um, but they

32:44
can switch into one of these assetbased

32:47
policies to to help protect themselves

32:50
and they can do what's called a 1035

32:52
exchange,

32:53
get some tax guidance on this before

32:55
embarking on this. But um, these

32:57
policies, these products can be pretty

33:00
interesting in some situations. Maybe

33:02
not perfect, but um something to

33:05
consider and something to get some

33:07
unbiased advice about. Um you would

33:11
definitely want to engage the services

33:13
of some sort of a a financial planner or

33:16
advisor who is not selling these

33:18
products to help assist you in in doing

33:20
your due diligence because the products

33:22
can be a little complicated in my

33:24
experience. The hybrid

33:25
they certainly can. We had a um I had a

33:27
guest on recently. His name is Jack

33:29
Lindenberg. is arguably the top

33:30
long-term care expert in the country.

33:32
He's also a lawyer as a background. Um

33:34
but he talked about these assetbased um

33:37
long-term care solutions which covers

33:39
the biggest fear for most people which

33:41
is what if I don't use the what if I

33:43
don't use the coverage. These assetbased

33:45
policies protect the principle which

33:48
would go to your beneficiaries if you

33:49
didn't use it which is the biggest fear

33:51
of traditional long-term care which is I

33:53
pay in I pay in I pay in and it's you

33:55
know it goes poof when I die. with these

33:57
newer policies um you know that that

34:01
circumvents and gets rid of that fear

34:03
even though you have the coverage. So

34:05
you know uh I would encourage people if

34:07
you can go to my site at the

34:08
annuityman.com and re and relisten to

34:10
that podcast with Jack Lennenberg

34:11
because he's going to dovetail what

34:13
Christine's talking about but go into

34:15
detail about those specific products

34:17
which leads me to the the sixth blind

34:19
spot which which is where annuities can

34:21
fit in because they're the only product

34:23
on the planet that can provide lifetime

34:25
income. And it's a it's a blind spot

34:26
that you talk about. It's called

34:28
longevity risk. Can you go into that?

34:30
Yeah. You know, this is a good news

34:33
story in so many ways um that we see

34:36
life expectancy gains especially among

34:38
higher [music] income adults, right?

34:41
Um where you know the the probability of

34:45
if you're part of a married couple, the

34:46
probability of one of you making it to

34:48
age 95 is uh is quite high. I don't know

34:52
off the top of my head specifically what

34:54
it is, but it's it's I think it's one in

34:56
three.

34:56
Um, and when you further sort of

34:59
subdivide that group by higher income

35:02
adults, we unfortunately, in my opinion,

35:04
we see um longevity very much correlated

35:07
with level of wealth. And so we do know

35:10
that higher income, higher net worth

35:12
people tend to live longer. So you need

35:15
to protect yourself against that

35:17
possibility. Um, and there are a few

35:20
different ways to do that. I would say

35:22
that right out of the box, if you're

35:24
thinking about doing that, you want to

35:26
make sure that your money lasts. Well,

35:28
you certainly want to make sure that you

35:30
are looking at non-portfolio income

35:33
sources with an eye to maximizing those

35:35
lifetime [music] payouts. So, at the top

35:38
of the list would be to make sure that

35:40
you're making smart decisions about

35:41
social security claiming. And Stan, I

35:43
don't know if you agree with this

35:44
assertion, but I believe that that

35:47
should really be job one before you look

35:49
at an annuity just to make sure that you

35:51
are getting

35:52
I agree with that. I agree with that.

35:54
And the reason I agree with that, just

35:55
to interject real quick, is people

35:57
always say, "Well, I hate all

35:58
annuities." And I say, "Well, you

35:59
already own one, right?

36:00
And it's the best inflation annuity on

36:02
the planet." And they go, "No, I'll

36:04
never own an annuity." And Social

36:05
Security. So, I totally agree that

36:07
that's the foundational annuity

36:10
um that you need to make the best

36:11
decision on um and seek someone out, not

36:14
an agent or adviser, but someone who

36:16
really specializes in social security

36:18
type planning so that you can make that

36:20
decision for your situation because

36:22
there's no perfect answer across the

36:23
board. It's customizable to what you're

36:26
trying to do and achieve. I would think

36:27
absolutely. And if you're part of a

36:29
married couple, I think that decision-

36:31
making is even more important. Um, one

36:34
free tool I would note, Stan, is um,

36:36
from my friend Mike Piper who has a

36:39
website called Open Social Security.

36:41
It's a free website there. There's been

36:43
kind of a cottage industry in these

36:45
social security calculators. Mike's is

36:47
all uh, free and it's very rigorous.

36:50
Mike is a um, a CPA and a social

36:53
security expert. So, I would urge your

36:56
listeners to give that tool a trial run

36:58
because it's an absolutely terrific tool

37:00
and it helps you include different

37:02
variables that you don't necessarily see

37:04
everywhere. So, you can haircut your

37:06
potential benefits. If you're a younger

37:09
person, for example, and you're worried,

37:11
well, there might be changes to social

37:13
security down the line, you can factor

37:15
that in. You can also use different um

37:19
different actuarial tables that factor

37:22
in different health situations. So if

37:24
you think that you will be in especially

37:26
long lived retirees, you can take a look

37:28
at that. So I would urge people to check

37:30
that out.

37:31
What's that site again?

37:32
It's called Open Social Security.

37:34
So open social security. Open social

37:37
securitycurity.com I guess.

37:39
Yes, I believe so.

37:40
Okay, good. Um we'll we'll list that on

37:42
our on our site as well. But getting

37:44
back to longevity and that longevity

37:46
risk, you know, social security, big one

37:47
you got to plan for and and what I call

37:50
this is the income floor. What is your

37:52
income for? What is the money that's

37:53
coming into your account

37:54
that's going to hit every single month

37:56
to that will take care of you in what I

37:58
call chapter two of your life? Um, you

38:00
know, chapter chapter one is

38:01
accumulation, chapter two is

38:02
deaccumulation and going and living your

38:04
lifestyle. Um, where do you see

38:08
annuities get a really bad rap, but um,

38:10
they are the only product that can um,

38:13
provide income as long as you're

38:15
breathing. And I've seen you speak upon

38:17
about immediate annuities and the sister

38:19
product, deferred income annuities, and

38:20
also QAX, which are deferred income

38:22
annuities for IAS. Do you encourage

38:25
people to look at those, and it's okay

38:27
if you say you don't because annuities

38:29
aren't for everybody. I'm the first one

38:31
to say that. How does that how does that

38:33
those those transfer of risk lifetime

38:35
income products fit into your um

38:38
portfolio planning?

38:40
Yeah, I I do think that an annuity can

38:43
be a good fit for someone who has taken

38:45
the steps to look at what Social

38:48
Security will pay them

38:49
and to the extent that there's a gap in

38:52
terms of fulfilling their basic living

38:54
expenses, I think that an annuity can be

38:57
perfectly appropriate. Unfortunately, as

39:01
as you know better than anyone, Stan,

39:02
annuities um are incredibly complicated.

39:06
It's uh we were doing our podcast with

39:08
Carrie Pector who uh head of the

39:10
Retirement Income Journal. Sure. And

39:13
yeah, he made the point that you know

39:15
that the word annuity is almost useless

39:18
because the products under the annuity

39:21
umbrella are so incredibly varied.

39:24
There's many of them. Yeah. You can't

39:25
say you hate all annuities unless you

39:27
want to say I hate all restaurants. um

39:29
because it just um there's so many

39:31
types. Uh the annuity industry has done

39:33
a very poor job of um of explaining what

39:37
they are and what they can do and what

39:38
they solve for. Primarily, it's either

39:40
principal protection or or income for

39:43
life. One of those two. I can solve for

39:46
for legacy and long-term care. My

39:47
acronym I use is pill, you know,

39:49
principal protection, income for life,

39:50
legacy, and long-term care. And if you

39:52
don't if you if you don't want to solve

39:54
for any of those four, then you don't

39:55
need an annuity. So, that's kind of my

39:57
mantra. I do want to talk about, you

39:59
were mentioning recently, we're on the

40:00
phone and you were mentioning there's a

40:02
um there's a research team you're part

40:04
of. There's four of you

40:06
and it's primarily revolving around

40:08
portfolio structuring.

40:10
Tell us about that that uh that locked

40:13
room that you guys are sitting in and

40:14
what you guys are working on because

40:16
that sounds fascinating that four of the

40:18
brightest people on the planet in this

40:20
in this space are talking about

40:22
portfolio structuring. What are you

40:23
working on?

40:25
Yeah, it's really fun. And we just

40:27
started this team at the beginning of

40:28
January and um it's several of my

40:31
longtime Morning Star colleagues and the

40:34
idea is that at Morning Star we have

40:36
these deep teams that are associated

40:39
with doing individual security research.

40:41
So we've got a team of mutual fund

40:43
researchers, ETF researchers. We've got

40:46
a big stock research team.

40:48
We have fewer people working on

40:51
financial planning matters, retirement

40:53
planning, portfolio planning matters and

40:56
it's a very rich territory. And we also

40:58
find that the

41:00
community the community of financial

41:03
advisors and individual investors and to

41:05
some extent the institutional community

41:07
really needs the help in some of these

41:09
areas. I think that we have a lot of

41:12
financial advisors who came of age in an

41:14
environment where their secret sauce was

41:17
how do I put together an investment

41:19
portfolio

41:20
and you know what are the specific

41:22
investments I choose for my clients.

41:25
Many adviserss are recognizing that yes

41:27
perhaps I can add value there but there

41:30
are all these other areas where I might

41:33
add add value as well. So internally

41:35
we've kind of called them gamma factors.

41:37
So there's alpha, beta, and there's

41:39
gamma where those are the all the other

41:42
levers that you have to improve your

41:45
plan's outcome. So those would be things

41:48
like smart social security

41:50
decisionmaking,

41:52
uh how to asset allocate for retirement,

41:56
what's a safe withdrawal rate in

41:58
retirement. So we feel like we have a

42:00
very broad toolkit which is a little

42:02
overwhelming but also super fun. And um

42:05
an example of the some of the research

42:07
we've been working on. In the first

42:09
quarter, we put out a research paper

42:11
that examined the correlations among

42:13
various asset classes. And what we

42:16
concluded was that asset correlations

42:19
have trended up over the past couple of

42:21
decades that we're seeing assets that

42:24
historically had behaved differently

42:27
come closer together. So an example

42:29
would be real estate, equities, REITs.

42:32
We've noted that when we look at

42:34
correlations with the broad equity

42:36
market, they've come more closely

42:38
aligned. And so, um, the paper concluded

42:42
that there are a few asset classes that

42:44
still do provide really good balanced

42:46
for equities. It comes down to treasury,

42:49
bonds, really across the interest rate

42:51
spectrum, and cash. those two assets.

42:54
Generally, if you're looking for

42:56
something that will zigg when your

42:57
stocks zag, you probably want to ensure

43:01
that your portfolio includes cash and

43:04
treasury bonds. So, th those are the

43:06
kinds of projects that we're we're

43:08
working on. We have um also been toiling

43:11
in the retirement income space and

43:13
you'll see some research from us uh

43:15
forthcoming on that topic as well.

43:17
last topic that I want to cover with

43:19
you. It's been fantastic for I mean my

43:22
listeners are just I'm going to get all

43:23
the love emails and I'll just forward

43:25
them to you. But [laughter] uh I mean I

43:28
mean it's been great and I hope to have

43:29
you on again. But I wanted to talk to

43:31
you about your bucket approach and

43:33
bucket approach um investing and

43:35
portfolio um uh the way you put together

43:38
the portfolio. This is nothing new.

43:40
Okay. The bucket approach it's been

43:42
used, excuse my French, it's been

43:45
bastardized. it's been it's it's been

43:47
improperly shown.

43:49
Can you explain to people the bucket

43:50
approach and how it might help them with

43:53
their planning?

43:54
Yeah, thanks for that question, Stan. I

43:57
always say I did not invent the bucket

43:59
approach. This strategy um really came

44:01
on my radar. I was talking to Harold

44:03
Deky who is a retirement um person and

44:08
professor

44:09
and and his wife Dana Catz. Right.

44:11
Exactly.

44:11
Yeah. They're they're fant he's he's out

44:13
of Texas Tech University. that's where

44:14
he bases his program. Um, but Harold

44:17
Devinsky is is a thought leader, not to

44:19
interject too much on just retirement

44:22
planning as a whole. He's kind of the

44:23
godfather a little bit.

44:24
Yes.

44:25
And um, you know, but but Christine's

44:27
sitting pretty close toward him on all

44:29
this, but yeah, but but go ahead with

44:31
that.

44:32
Yeah. So I I was talking to Harold um

44:35
gosh it must have been close to I don't

44:37
know 12 years ago or so and I was asking

44:39
him I was thinking very much about this

44:41
yield issue the fact that yields then

44:43
were pretty low too. So just talking to

44:46
him about all the dimensions of how he

44:48
crafts his clients portfolios and I

44:50
asked him that question about well like

44:53
how how do you do it and how do you keep

44:56
your clients comfortable with portfolios

44:59
today that back then that should include

45:02
healthy allocations to equities. And his

45:05
comment was that well I use this kind of

45:07
bucket system and I know Harold has

45:08
evolved a little bit on this view over

45:10
the years but basically he said he took

45:13
one to two years of his clients cash

45:16
flow needs and held it in cash alongside

45:19
the total return balanced portfolio that

45:22
he was running for them. And what he

45:24
said was that he found that it gave his

45:27
clients an incredible amount of peace of

45:29
mind to sit tight with the long-term

45:31
portfolio knowing that they knew that

45:34
their cash flows for the next couple of

45:37
years were were pretty much secured.

45:39
Um, and he said sometimes he would call

45:41
his clients on the markets down days and

45:43
ask, "Well, how are you feeling about

45:46
this big market shock?" back and

45:47
basically his clients would say, "No,

45:49
I'm okay because I've got this cash

45:52
buffer, this bucket." And so a light

45:54
bulb went off in my head because I, you

45:56
know, I'm so attuned to the behavioral

45:58
aspects of all of this. You know, if we

46:01
optimize a retirement plan, but people

46:03
can't live with it and and it makes them

46:05
uncomfortable. Well, that's not worth

46:07
anything. We want the plan that people

46:09
will be able to live with and be

46:10
comfortable with. And so Harold made the

46:13
point that doing this gives the clients

46:16
peace of mind. So that's really um led

46:18
me to provide guidance on how you might

46:22
sort of incorporate this bucket system

46:24
into your own plan. And the way I think

46:26
about it is that you're using maybe two

46:29
years worth of anticipated portfolio

46:32
withdrawals and you're holding that

46:33
money in cash investments and then from

46:37
there you're stepping out on the risk

46:39
spectrum. So you're holding highquality

46:42
fixed income investments with the next

46:44
bucket. So your cash buckets bucket one.

46:47
Bucket two would be sort of your

46:48
highquality bond bucket. And that's

46:51
holding maybe another five to eight

46:53
years worth of portfolio withdrawals.

46:55
And with those two buckets, you've

46:58
effectively built yourself a bull work

47:00
that you could spend through if you

47:04
we're talking about sequence of return

47:06
risk. If you're one of those retirees

47:08
who walks headlong into a really bad

47:10
equity market,

47:11
yeah,

47:11
well, with your buckets one and two,

47:13
you've given yourself a set of assets

47:15
that you could spend through and maybe

47:18
not have to touch your equity holdings

47:21
for another 10 years, which should give

47:23
them the opportunity to recover. So,

47:26
that's kind of the basic structure. I

47:28
know that there are a lot of different

47:30
variations, but that's how I approach

47:32
it. And I think it's kind of an

47:34
intuitive way to visualize what a sane

47:38
asset allocation for retirement might

47:40
look like. And it's also just a way to

47:43
build yourself a portfolio that you

47:45
could live with and that would give you

47:48
peace of mind to stick with it to stick

47:50
with the long-term investments through

47:53
um various forms of volatility that

47:56
might materialize.

47:58
I'm going to tell you this has been a

48:00
this has been a great conversation. And

48:02
I know my listeners and viewers have

48:03
enjoyed it as well. Remember who this is

48:05
if you don't already know. Christine

48:06
Benz, she's the director of personal

48:08
finance for Morning Star and a senior

48:11
columnist at Morningstar.com.

48:13
We're going to have her links to her

48:15
archives on my site. We're going to have

48:17
the links to her podcast recordings on

48:18
my site. And I encourage you to start

48:20
following her following her if you don't

48:22
already. Um Christine, thank you so much

48:25
for being here. any any final thoughts

48:27
for the the retirees, pre-retirees or

48:31
postretirees that are tuning in?

48:34
Well, one thing I always like to say,

48:36
Stan, is as much as I like to help

48:39
counsel the DIY type investors, people

48:42
who have done,

48:43
you know, their own portfolio plans. I

48:46
would say this is an area where it

48:48
really helps to get some help. Get at

48:50
least a second set of eyes on your plan

48:53
to make sure you're just thinking

48:54
through your own situation. And it may

48:58
not be that you are, you know, engaging

49:01
with an adviser where you have to pay

49:03
him or her forever, but at least get a

49:05
second set of eyes on that plan to make

49:08
sure that you're thinking things

49:09
through. And the other nice thing about

49:11
engaging some sort of a professional

49:13
either on a short-term or a long-term

49:14
basis

49:15
is that you are building in kind of a

49:18
backup plan that if something should

49:21
happen to you, there is someone

49:23
somewhere who knows kind of the broad

49:26
contours of whatever plan you were

49:28
using. I'm a big evangelist for this

49:30
idea of getting a a little bit of help

49:33
with your plan even though you're very

49:35
engaged and you know might consider

49:37
yourself very savvy about these matters.

49:39
to just get another set of eyes on the

49:41
plan.

49:42
Sage advice from an absolute financial

49:45
advice superstar and recognized

49:47
financial advice superstar, Miss

49:49
Christine Benz. Thanks for joining us. I

49:51
really appreciate it. It's been it's

49:52
been an honor and a privilege and hope

49:54
you can join us again soon uh on the

49:56
number one annuity podcast on the planet

49:59
and we will see all of you next week on

50:01
all major podcast platforms and on the

50:03
Fun with Annuities YouTube channel.

50:05
Thanks again, Christine Benz.

50:09
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