Branislav Nikolic: Looking Forward With Fixed Index Annuities

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foreign

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with annuities where every single week I

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welcome a celebrity guest expert that

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can help you maximize chapter 2 of your

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podcast on the planet let's get to it

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities I'm your

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host Stan the annuity man America's

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annuity agent licensed in all 50 states

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coming to you from Las Vegas Nevada

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where my main Administrative Office is

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and so happy to be there and we have a

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repeat guest he was on six or seven

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months ago and I'm so glad he's back

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number one because I'm very envious of

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his name and I'll explain that in a

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second but he was with us with another

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company last time he used to work for

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canx and now he works for the index

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standard and the reason we're having him

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on is because what he's doing now

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is so in line with my beliefs and what

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needs to happen in the annuity industry

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without further Ado let me introduce

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Brenna sloth nikolich how are you

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brandisloff

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very well thanks Stan nice to be here

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and uh always pleasure to chat well and

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then the name see he's branislavin and

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in the perfect world that I want to live

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in where the unicorns chase the

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butterflies I would be stanislav in the

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annuity Czar stanislav but it doesn't

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work like that brem slob but um let me

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give you some background a good friend

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of mine Gary Baker works for canx and

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kennex supplies all of the

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um you know spia Dia culac type quotes

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to us and and branislav was doing some

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really interesting work for them

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um and found and more even more

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interesting pro project in my opinion

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when he went to work for the index

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standard and they're based in New York

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City but but branislav still uh still

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likes to call Toronto home

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um but he is really really focused on

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this new project branislav give us

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kind of the elevator speech of what

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you're doing now and then let's dig in

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because this is going to be fun

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thanks Dan um yeah so it's been uh it's

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been over six months now

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um and uh in a in a I don't know 100

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words or less what we do is we try to

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bring together and demystify uh custom

2:21
indices used in Insurance space uh we

2:24
ranked him uh we create uh forecasts for

2:27
them uh we use that as a basis for what

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we call model locations for fixed index

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annuities and overall we provide guides

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uh that are written in human language

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that people can understand about things

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that are not so familiar to most

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well and that's the reason that when we

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spoke recently you were telling me what

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you were doing I was so intrigued

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because

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what's going on in the industry right

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now just so people don't know the index

2:53
in in index index annuity space and

2:56
universe universal index universal life

2:58
life insurance space their

3:00
using back tested numbers that are

3:03
really bloated and over sold and over

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hyped and there's some issues and

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there's some lawsuits coming down the

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pike and I think the annuity industry

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could really clean it up by just either

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looking at what branislav and his new

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company is doing the one he's with now

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and we're working with brandislav I told

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him before we got on the air I said next

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time in New York I'll you know we'll

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have to have dinner because I really am

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interested in this the what you're doing

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differently with the index annuity space

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because I think

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what's happening in the indexed annuity

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world is tragic and in some cases

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fraudulent and in a lot of cases

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misleading to people that hope and dream

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that these things are going to come true

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what is your opinion about the bat the

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current and we're not going to mention

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company names or anything like that but

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what's your what's your opinion about

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the current situation with

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indexed annuities index universal life

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using back tested numbers especially

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with indices that just were created two

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months ago

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it's problematic and I mean I can I can

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give you I can give you anecdotal

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example and you tell me if if this makes

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sense to you so let's say that this is

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not a custom index let's say we're

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talking about NASDAQ and we see the

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NASDAQ illustrates the last 10 years at

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16 a year now you take apple which is

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largest constituent of NASDAQ you grow

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that at 16 over 10 years and you go from

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Two and a Half trillion to over 12

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trillion now as a comparison that's like

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three four times the GDP of Germany so

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is that a good practice I'm not so sure

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I'll leave it at that

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um so that's one thing the other thing

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is that

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um I think it's interest Dynamics here

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right so the only things that that index

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providers or Banks or asset managers

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have to show the performance of an index

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is a back test uh to me that like

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illustration shows you how things move

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how you add things together how do you

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multiply them uh how do you mix the

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potion but it doesn't tell you what a

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potion will do today what it will do 10

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years from from today yeah the view that

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we take in index standard is trying to

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demystify this at a few levels one is

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first of all describe in a human

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language you don't really have to read a

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font too to understand what's going on

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in an index there is a paragraph they

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would always tell you what index is made

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of and how it works the other one is

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that we put it through a extremely

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rigorous algorithmic process they will

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give it a rating so you will get rating

5:38
anywhere from platinum gold silver

5:40
bronze all the way to what we call watch

5:42
which is are are not not the greatest

5:45
category that we that we currently have

5:48
on top of that what we think is

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important is to see how these indices

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will work in the environment that it's

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projected uh for the economy going

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forward so this is what we call the

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wisdom of Wall Street so we decompose

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every index into its building blocks and

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applied a couple of Market assumptions

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for the economy as a whole what Wall

6:08
Street and again we aggregate from over

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30 asset managers Banks insurance

6:13
companies forecasting houses on a couple

6:15
of Market assumptions and we apply that

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to decomposed indices to come up with a

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forecast of an index so that in our view

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is kind of the opposing or

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counterbalance to what happened over the

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last 10 years or what happened in the

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illustration now the back test itself

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um the fact that you're using a

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hindsight there and you let

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mathematicians and technology and

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they'll create you an index they have

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perfect 45 degree line in the back test

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the question is what happens after a

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live date and we more often not see

6:48
either them going flat going down but

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rarely ever they continue to Skyrocket

6:53
as well as they did and I think the word

6:55
of the day could be caution

6:58
yeah I I agree with that and and I think

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my interest here is obviously I'm

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director consumer and the largest person

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doing that I need you know I'm hoping

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that we can come up with something that

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our clients can look at because right

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now what you have if I'm not mistaken is

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kind of business to business and you're

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providing it to business to business

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this

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information that you're now cultivating

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and providing needs to be as we

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discussed earlier in a consumer format

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where consumers can can can look at I'm

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hoping that's where you're headed with

7:32
some of this because if you do then

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we're the platform for that because I

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have nothing against index annuities I

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was around in 1995 when they first were

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introduced

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um and you know they were they were put

7:43
on the planet to compete with CDs and

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they've become this

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really ridiculous

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um

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thing that every it seems like every

7:53
single person that sells annuities they

7:56
lead with indexed annuities which is a

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joke they're not a one-size-fits-all and

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the index options and I think right now

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there's what over 750 that I know of uh

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index option choices that that are

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currently available

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over 100 indices and you have call it

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three dozen carriers and then you have

8:21
three four strategies in every index we

8:24
end up when choosing for different 3

8:27
premiums they were not I kid you not we

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cover over 4 000 of these combinations

8:32
every month where we calculate what we

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call the net forecast credit for a

8:36
crediting strategy 4 000. yes so it's it

8:40
and again this is not the entire thing

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because we only do uh the annuities that

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are currently available at my at my

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former employer which again we have a

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very tight relationship we rely on them

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for for some calculations for the data

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so that's not all of them that's not all

8:57
of them and yet if you think about the

8:59
entire Market has huge number of choices

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now a lot of these choices are

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repetitive yeah this is one thing that

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we try to do with our model allocations

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that even within a single annuity when

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you have buffering 15 20 30 choices

9:15
we want to bring it down to three four

9:18
five they're distinct

9:21
they're on a forward-looking basis

9:23
better than a fixed rate the that

9:25
annuity offers and if you can compare

9:27
those forecasted credits albeit to the

9:30
fixed trades in the let's say myga and

9:34
then that you're not repeating or over

9:36
concentrating in a single index choosing

9:38
a cap on s p participation SMP monthly

9:41
someone SMP I mean that's all on SMP

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so so that's that's kind of the key key

9:46
element that we are trying to provide

9:48
and going back to your question about

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um helping consumers our goal is helping

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the end consumer I our goal is to help

9:56
educate the end consumer to help educate

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advisors

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um for whom I think the expectations are

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too high to understand everything and

10:06
anything under under this sun and moon

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these indices are complex there's too

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many of them we'll give them the cliffs

10:13
notes for each and every index for each

10:15
and every indexed annuity so that they

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can comfortably speak to to an end

10:20
consumer and if you look at NMR

10:22
materials they're really written at a

10:24
level for the consumer to understand

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yeah I I unfortunately the the problems

10:30
that are arising in the index annuity

10:32
space and index universal life which I

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don't sell but it's similar

10:36
um are with are with agents and advisors

10:39
that will not take the time to do that

10:40
type of

10:42
of research I think that to really

10:44
combat the problem eventually you're

10:47
going to have to come up with a

10:49
consumer-facing

10:51
that will explain it to the consumer if

10:53
they want to do it I mean simple is

10:54
complex as Steve Jobs always said that's

10:57
an easy thing for me to say it's a very

10:59
hard thing for you to do but I think

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eventually as as annuities as a category

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keep heading toward

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um the direct to Consumer market and

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we're dragging all these carriers across

11:11
the finish line to get there there's

11:13
going to have to eventually be something

11:15
that the consumer goes to

11:17
and similar information that you're

11:19
providing to B2B and it's B to C where

11:22
they can look because

11:24
you know annuities are contracts and

11:26
people can make their own decisions

11:28
based on good information I I'm excited

11:31
about what you guys are doing but I am

11:32
excited about 2.0 and 2.0 it has to

11:37
involve the consumer because I really

11:40
don't have a ton of faith in the agents

11:43
and advisors as a whole and as a

11:46
collective and as a majority using your

11:49
information to base their

11:51
recommendations on indexed annuities

11:56
that's tough yeah it's tough again I

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wouldn't I wouldn't paid it with such a

12:02
broad brush uh I would say that if you

12:05
distill information such that is easily

12:08
accessible and again we do this directly

12:12
with the with the firms uh we do this

12:14
with platforms uh I think you're right

12:17
um enabling consumers even just to ask

12:20
the right questions

12:22
it's nice well let's go through that I

12:24
mean in your opinion and just off the

12:26
cuff

12:27
you know someone's pitching being

12:29
pitched an indexed annuity for Market

12:31
type returns which that's the first

12:33
No-No

12:35
um but they're being pitched and they're

12:37
being pitched back tested numbers what's

12:41
your what's your verbal response to that

12:43
if you're a consumer

12:45
so my first question is how are you able

12:47
to offer me market rate returns and

12:50
still protecting my principal who pays

12:53
for insurance who is who is who is it

12:55
who is a A Fairy Godmother that

12:58
underrigns that so that that'll be the

13:00
first one the other one is

13:02
um if you look at back tested

13:04
performance

13:06
I would just dismiss that off the off

13:09
the cuff and basically say that the back

13:12
tested performance is there to sort of

13:15
serve mathematical need of adding

13:17
multiplying uh I think to be to be

13:21
honest I think we're in an extremely

13:23
dangerous spot today with

13:26
kind of coming off the bull market

13:28
and interest rates they've risen

13:31
expanded the the budgets for for for

13:34
options participations that increased

13:37
caps that increased and now you have two

13:40
environments that have collided and now

13:42
you're adding these two together and

13:44
basically saying if I have a cap or a

13:47
participation as of today and I apply

13:49
that to the market in which rates are

13:51
zero and it was Raging Bull Market you

13:54
add it together you're getting

13:57
things

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low 20s on

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[Music]

14:01
return

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which is stupid

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it's ridiculous and I think that that

14:07
would be my my first question if you're

14:09
fixed annuity

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returns look anything like Equity

14:14
returns

14:16
there is some fudging going on

14:19
unless I need people to hear this okay

14:22
because I've been pounding the table on

14:23
this and taking the bullets from all

14:25
these sales people and organizations

14:28
if it if it sounds too good to be true

14:30
it is if it sounds like you're buying a

14:33
market product with principal protection

14:34
you're the sucker at the table

14:37
you are it's not going to happen period

14:41
but you know what what a problem is and

14:43
I think that's a problem with any any

14:45
any any type of type of these these

14:48
arguments is that there is

14:50
half of the people who will Who will

14:52
really have the people that will lose

14:53
and those those who win will boast about

14:57
it and those those who lose will cry

14:59
about it right right so I think I think

15:01
it's also fair to understand what are we

15:04
looking to what are you looking to to

15:05
get what are you getting yourself into

15:08
um if you look at someone who bought

15:10
Bitcoin in 2019

15:12
and ask them how they feel today they'll

15:14
give you a completely different answer

15:15
that someone who bought 2006.

15:20
right now now the the question is

15:25
what are we measuring I think we have to

15:27
measure the the per unit of risk return

15:30
that you're getting how much you're

15:32
relying on the principal protection

15:35
versus how much you're looking for an

15:38
upside

15:39
that goes back to is a fixed annuity

15:42
one size fits all I think you can

15:44
achieve a lot of purposes you have

15:46
optional income benefit Riders which I

15:48
think are phenomenal uh I think that

15:51
even these are priced in a way that

15:53
those who keep them will benefit from

15:56
those who don't those who use them will

15:59
benefit from those who don't right you

16:01
have like

16:03
half dozen and six the other

16:05
one half ain't gonna be happy

16:07
I think the same thing same thing is

16:09
here that you have

16:11
some for whom these these things work

16:13
and again how you use it when you look

16:15
into volatility control index I think

16:17
what it allows you to do is take the

16:20
volatility as a variable out of out of

16:22
your out of your retirement

16:24
the the participations are more stable

16:26
if you look over last two years where

16:28
the rates are going up you would see

16:30
that on a benchmark let's say like SMP

16:33
the participation rate doubled

16:36
you tell me what's going to happen when

16:38
rates go down what happened to the

16:41
participation right if you don't have to

16:43
answer well let let people kind of

16:45
ponder on that one

16:46
if you look at a volatility control

16:48
index you would see the participation on

16:51
it went up but went up 20 30 percent

16:55
again what's going to happen if the

16:56
rates are coming down this is strictly a

16:59
function of rates not the volatility

17:01
that's important thing to put it in

17:03
baseball terms would you rather have 10

17:05
people in a lineup who hit singles and

17:07
doubles or would you like to have three

17:11
Heavy Hitters and hope the bases are

17:13
loaded when they come to hit the home

17:15
run if they hit it

17:17
I think that's well put we're talking to

17:20
branisoff nikolich of the index standard

17:22
formerly of canx he's a good friend and

17:25
he's very smart friends love give the

17:27
people a little bit of your background

17:28
don't overwhelm them with your math

17:32
accolades but tell him who you are

17:36
and your accomplishments no no Ma so

17:40
I've been

17:42
I've been for for past decade and um I

17:45
had a opportunity

17:47
uh very very fortunate opportunity to

17:49
work initially with Moshi malevsky at

17:51
his startup there was later acquired

17:54
mechanics where I uh had a privilege to

17:56
work with uh low low and Gary again the

18:00
big names in the industry sure and along

18:03
the way I I

18:05
um I got to work with Tommy Catalan who

18:07
was also at at canex and uh

18:10
made friends with um Dave Blanchard Mike

18:13
think yeah along the way wait foul so so

18:16
I I was I was extremely privileged to

18:19
have all these Heavy Hitters of the

18:21
industry influence my my young career on

18:24
the Mad side I I did all my education

18:27
here in Toronto and stand the news flash

18:30
I defended my PhD dissertation Evan wore

18:33
the the funny hat yet so I cannot write

18:35
to a doctor how did it go it went great

18:38
so um Doctrine awaiting so they're

18:41
they're they're tailoring the silly hat

18:42
and uh hopefully soon I'll be able to

18:45
write your doctor's note if you need one

18:46
and the and the dissertation was on what

18:50
so I I did I did research kind of was

18:52
like a three three-legged legged project

18:55
one was on optimal location to uh

18:58
deferred income annuities okay uh you

19:01
can apply this if you want to sell

19:03
pension eyes you can apply this in a 4rk

19:05
uh setting

19:07
um the other piece was uh strictly about

19:10
um regulatory requirements when you're

19:12
reserving for cash refund annuities

19:14
given that these gain in popularity

19:18
um last lasted a little while and then

19:20
finally the the project that I was

19:21
really passionate about was had to do

19:23
with what I'm currently doing is

19:24
applying some machine learning

19:26
techniques to understand the indices and

19:29
basically see how we can break them into

19:31
into building blocks and apply some uh

19:34
common common economy common factors to

19:37
it to get the the performance on a go

19:40
forward basis to forecast and understand

19:43
how annuities uh not well but would do

19:47
going forward

19:49
very nice I just came up with the index

19:52
standards uh logo I mean tagline

19:56
um you can you can steal it but I'll

19:58
obviously need you know some type of

20:00
royalty the index standard looking

20:03
forward not backwards

20:04
I mean that's in essence what you guys

20:06
do right which is the antithesis of what

20:10
everyone else is doing everything else

20:11
is back tested interesting I just did a

20:14
um another video on this but this the

20:17
The Perfect Storm of news is going in

20:21
your favor with the lawsuits now pending

20:25
on back-tested numbers and that class

20:28
action lawsuit growing and growing and

20:30
growing not only consumers suing because

20:33
of these promises but ironically agents

20:37
suing the carriers for providing the

20:40
back tested numbers that they pushed

20:41
which is one of the weirder things I've

20:43
ever heard in my life so I think this is

20:46
going to be

20:48
it's a softball of all softballs it's a

20:50
beach ball of all beach balls thrown to

20:52
your company to say we're not doing back

20:54
testing we're doing forward testing

20:56
we're doing we're doing legitimate

20:59
forward testing which

21:01
has it ever been done are you guys blew

21:03
water in this space I would think you're

21:05
Blue Water you're new I mean in this

21:08
space it's completely new but

21:09
forecasting has has been done of course

21:11
but annuity I mean the annuity the old

21:15
study you know fat guy you know in Des

21:18
Moines Iowa smoking a smoking a cigar

21:20
nothing gets to mourned a little bit

21:22
more but the point is it's never it's

21:24
never happened here

21:27
my question to you is why is it just

21:30
because it didn't need to or is it

21:32
because the back tested issues are

21:34
starting to come to a head

21:37
this this goes back again I can I can

21:39
give you kind of a secondhand story here

21:41
but uh the founder of the index standard

21:43
Lauren's black

21:45
spent a good part of last two decades

21:48
creating indices and creating good

21:50
indices uh having partnership with uh

21:53
people who are proven in Academia and uh

21:56
he he grew he grew massive index

22:00
business

22:01
um and in his past life right so for him

22:04
as a next chapter

22:07
um he thought it was oh he can create

22:08
more indices when he has been successful

22:10
at that but then he realized that the

22:12
questions that people asked about his

22:14
indices are questions that just multiply

22:17
when you see the number of players there

22:19
enter the arena in the last uh five five

22:22
to ten years Banks asset managers even

22:24
indexers right getting proprietary

22:27
indices so

22:29
instead of doing more of what

22:31
he was great at but doing it one off for

22:34
a single purpose Let's help everyone

22:36
Let's help people retire with more money

22:39
money in their pockets I think the the

22:42
key here is that the end consumer was

22:45
and is in in our eyes and Minds when we

22:49
do something and that's something that I

22:51
believe sets us apart

22:53
um the fact that uh we have collectively

22:56
so between Lawrence and Jay Watson

22:58
another partner and myself we have

23:01
enough experience

23:04
they have it in indices I have it enough

23:06
in in annuities to bring together a

23:09
solution that will help Mom and Pop

23:12
in there in their in their retirement

23:14
help them retire with more money in

23:16
their pockets whether these indices are

23:18
used to grow money whether these indices

23:20
are used and more often or not you're

23:22
seeing they're being used in In Living

23:24
benefits as well to to to drive to drive

23:27
income

23:28
how do we help people understand what

23:31
they're buying make the choice whether

23:33
they want to participate in that game at

23:35
all and help them

23:38
with a forward-looking view

23:41
and I think it's important to show

23:42
people with forward-looking is here's

23:45
forward looking and then here's

23:46
contractual here are the two you know

23:48
which which one do you want to do which

23:51
one fits you if you're done you know as

23:54
as chapter two of your life means you

23:56
don't want to track anything anymore

23:57
make those type of decisions you just

23:59
want to Lock and Load and just have the

24:00
guarantee then have the guarantee or

24:03
have a have a um a combination of the

24:07
two the other thing that's happening in

24:09
the industry which is really sad is

24:12
there are the handful of products that

24:14
have the index that is linked to the

24:16
income benefit but they're being sold

24:17
improperly and not people aren't being

24:21
told that the contractual guaranteed

24:23
equivalent is so much higher in the

24:25
annuity companies just simply in most

24:27
cases lower that initial payment to make

24:29
up for that potential increase of that

24:33
index I just think that the industries

24:36
as a whole and I'm including your

24:39
company as well and when I get in front

24:41
of you and Lawrence and everybody I mean

24:43
I'll be brutal I'll say listen man

24:45
you've got to take this and take it down

24:47
a few notches you have to in order for

24:51
it to be now with that being said I mean

24:54
the companies that are using you and the

24:56
firms that are using the kudos to them

24:57
for for doing that but for for the

25:00
consumer

25:02
to really not get taken to the wood shed

25:04
like they are in a lot of cases they're

25:06
they have to be educated on a very

25:09
simplistic level like mine that they

25:14
understand if they're going to look at

25:15
these indexed annuities or index

25:17
products that are packaged they have to

25:20
fully understand it and be able to

25:22
explain it to a nine-year-old and that's

25:24
going to be the hard part for you guys

25:25
now you're going to make a good living

25:27
and it's going to be great and you guys

25:29
are going to grow and all these firms

25:30
are going to hire you

25:32
but that's still not that's still not

25:34
reaching the consumer like you need to

25:37
con to reach the consumer what is

25:38
Lawrence and you're in the I forgot the

25:40
other partner's name what'd you say his

25:42
name was Jay Watson what's between you

25:45
Jay and Lawrence what are you do you

25:48
have those conversations about

25:51
the consumer is the conversation just

25:53
that the hopeful information you're

25:55
providing to the advisor gets to the

25:56
consumer

25:58
so of course it's it's a kind of like

26:01
front and center of all the conversation

26:03
how does this get to the end consumer

26:06
and that's why we partner with with our

26:07
distribution firms that's why we partner

26:09
with uh with platforms that's why we're

26:11
looking to partner uh with folks folks

26:14
like you we do you in particular who get

26:17
this straight straight to consumer

26:20
to enable a consumer to make a choice

26:24
and everything that goes into creating

26:26
any of our solution you're saying

26:28
explaining it to a ninth grader we have

26:32
a editor and staff who actually takes

26:35
every everything that we say at a high

26:38
level they come from Banking and from

26:39
insurance and we are talking all this

26:42
mumbo jumbo and the mumbo jumbo from the

26:44
index documentation from your new

26:46
documentation yeah it takes it down the

26:48
Notch and basically says hey guys we

26:51
need to talk

26:52
simple language right we have to every

26:55
time you have someone in mind again

26:56
there's been ingrained in my mind for

26:58
for a long time now would my grandma

27:01
understand what I'm saying if I don't

27:03
think she would you're right bring it

27:05
down a notch this information I hope our

27:09
hope is that our reports on annuities

27:12
and on indices eventually and in every

27:15
client file

27:18
similar now how illustrations are

27:20
printed how the the needs assessment the

27:23
best interests uh suitability that's

27:27
there because we see that as perfect

27:30
starting point to manage expectations

27:33
you know in one words one in other words

27:35
you have the illustration that tells you

27:37
how things work what what this what what

27:40
we are trying to provide is how this

27:42
might look for you five ten years down

27:45
the road

27:46
so we hope that it ends up uh I think

27:49
yeah I think I mean it's not gonna

27:50
happen overnight but I I you know I'm

27:52
going to encourage you to to think

27:54
through that because at the

27:57
in five to seven years in my opinion and

28:01
maybe the industry is going to fight me

28:02
on this but if they do it's going to be

28:04
one hell of a fight

28:06
um of which I'm going to win I think

28:08
consumers will be able to buy Direct

28:12
I really believe that and and and if and

28:15
if I leave a legacy out here that's

28:17
going to be it it's going to be I'm

28:19
going to make sure that the simplistic

28:22
annuities and this can be simplistic if

28:25
it's done correctly the the index space

28:29
um can be purchased well and in and be

28:33
informed just like people can buy stocks

28:36
and can buy mutual funds and can buy

28:37
anything direct there is absolutely no

28:40
reason whatsoever that the rule of of an

28:45
agent having to be in the middle of that

28:47
sale has to be in place that is archaic

28:50
that will eventually change and that I'm

28:54
hoping to drive uh drag those people

28:57
across the finish line but with your

28:59
company doing what they're doing you

29:02
know within the next five years

29:03
hopefully that will be a part of how we

29:05
do it because everything's information

29:08
and the problem right now is the the the

29:12
annuity industry seems to be the keepers

29:15
of the information and they're not and

29:17
now you're saying no no we're taking

29:20
that information and we're going to

29:22
distribute it the way we think it should

29:24
be distributed with that being said are

29:25
you getting any pushback from carriers

29:27
on this at all are they participating

29:29
absolutely not no every everyone I knock

29:33
on wood everyone who sees it likes it uh

29:36
we don't have any any pushback from

29:38
carriers we don't see any pushback from

29:40
from distribution firms I think you're

29:41
right I think everyone is realizing that

29:44
the that this is that we're living in

29:46
the age of of information now I have to

29:49
push back on on what you just said

29:51
please and again I've I've no horse in

29:53
this race so

29:55
um I think that what what you are

29:58
proposing that everyone going online

30:00
clicking and buying I think that that's

30:03
the future but there is going to be a

30:05
point similar to how does it work when

30:08
you when you buy a car I don't think

30:10
that every car dealership adds value but

30:13
a lot of them do

30:14
um I don't think that customization of

30:16
the car is something that everyone not

30:19
can or cannot do cares to do where I

30:23
think that the dealership can help again

30:26
I understand let me give you my

30:27
correlation in their Direction just give

30:30
me a second and then you have

30:33
Elon Musk and Tesla I said I'm not going

30:35
to advertise I'm just gonna you can buy

30:37
it online with your credit card

30:39
that's yes if you have a unique

30:42
proposition and a proposition that's one

30:44
size fits all if someone can identify

30:47
that that's their piece of clothing

30:50
I don't think that it will ever go one

30:54
way or the other but I think that

30:56
information at a fingertips

31:00
and and again the advisors are saying we

31:02
love this information because we are

31:04
unable to know everything my heart like

31:08
I've heard once someone said my car

31:10
stops when I have to talk about its

31:11
indices but in order for me to close the

31:13
sale I have to now you're enabling me

31:16
not to make stuff up you are giving me

31:20
the information that I can rely on so I

31:22
with you the information is is going to

31:24
be a key but what are every consumer is

31:28
interested to hear it all

31:31
let me give you my correlation and this

31:33
is one that that that uh rural American

31:35
flyover America will understand long

31:37
time ago every single small town or most

31:40
of them had a travel agency in that

31:43
small town where you go out and got your

31:44
travel at this point in time those have

31:46
been eliminated from Direct online uh

31:49
marketplaces and you have boutiques you

31:52
have some that still stand that cater to

31:54
a specific small Market the same thing

31:56
will occur in the annuity industry there

31:58
still will be Boutique people that do

32:00
that

32:02
um but I think at the end of the day the

32:04
local

32:06
um agent that sells within a 30 mile

32:07
radius of where they live no offense to

32:09
you guys out there if you're listening

32:10
to gals but it's over and it's the same

32:13
thing as

32:15
um you know the Walmarts and Amazons of

32:17
the world when people said to me you

32:19
know Amazon's not going to be able to

32:20
sell things like that because you're

32:22
going to want to try things on or you're

32:23
going to want to touch it okay right

32:25
sure that's been disproven I think I

32:28
think this is the last archaic industry

32:30
to be drug across the finish line and I

32:34
think that uh it's just going to be it's

32:36
going to be interesting to see how it's

32:38
packaged now the answer the other

32:39
interesting part is I'm probably one of

32:41
a handful of people that are either

32:43
interested in and doing this on my

32:45
website and putting it and B more

32:48
importantly can afford to do it and

32:50
stroke that check to get the information

32:52
out to the consumer for free no one else

32:54
is going to do that no one's just crazy

32:56
enough to do that with that being said

32:58
do you find you said to me earlier that

33:01
there are some carriers that don't

33:03
participate is that a function of them

33:05
not being

33:07
um interested is that a function of cost

33:12
not necessarily either I think the key

33:15
is that we are still relatively

33:17
relatively new and we are we are working

33:21
with with some uh we haven't contacted

33:25
them all I mean have with all the people

33:27
in the space

33:28
have you contacted them all or are you

33:31
just working with the major ones and I'm

33:32
going to answer I'm going to give you my

33:34
answer once I hear your answer

33:38
yes you've contacted every single

33:41
carrier not every no no that that that's

33:44
where that's where I'm kind of shaking

33:45
my head no I'm slowly I'm slowly going

33:48
going through that process and uh but

33:51
obviously we we have started with Once

33:53
where we saw that we could have the

33:56
traction first because you start with

33:58
the major ones and now you're trickling

34:00
down but there can't be that many I mean

34:02
it it has to be roughly three dozen

34:05
okay

34:07
so so so you've gotten to how many out

34:10
of the three out of the three dozen how

34:12
many are you working with now

34:15
it depends on on what level we work with

34:18
with few very closely uh to the point

34:22
that we are helping them Drive their

34:25
their message changing their processes

34:27
based on what we have and we have

34:30
um

34:31
a few more I would say that there are

34:34
kind of arms length that are using our

34:36
service for competitive intelligence uh

34:39
for understanding what we do and how

34:41
they look compared to the rest of the

34:43
market and that's basically our hope

34:46
that that's our entry point that we

34:48
provide a different dimension of uh

34:50
competitive intelligence to begin with

34:52
and then work with with few uh to help

34:56
them drive drive the drive their change

34:58
yeah but it can't be like that in my

35:00
opinion you've got if you've got 36

35:01
carriers let's just say you have 36

35:03
carriers

35:05
my question at UJ and Lawrence is

35:09
why haven't all 36 been contacted why

35:12
don't we have specific answers from all

35:14
36 why haven't all 36 been flown to New

35:16
York and sit in a room why haven't all

35:18
36 been said this is what we're trying

35:20
to achieve as an industry because once

35:22
you start paying and I'm not putting

35:24
down business model I'm just a brutally

35:26
factual dude that understands this

35:28
industry backwards and forwards like

35:31
nobody else from a consumer standpoint

35:33
my question to you is why not the full

35:35
36 and let me tell you why because it in

35:39
Rural America flyer of America small

35:41
town America that local agent a lot of

35:45
times is selling that low end

35:48
carrier that's offering one or two index

35:50
annuities that pay a huge Commission

35:53
and that's the one those are the people

35:55
I'm worried about not the big carriers

35:58
that you're helping enhance and all that

35:59
I don't give a damn what I care about is

36:03
the smaller you know the lady or her

36:07
husband that just retired from the local

36:09
Mill and somebody's showing them one

36:12
indexed annuity company of which the

36:15
index standard doesn't have a

36:17
relationship with that's who I'm worried

36:19
about

36:20
ah okay so so I I think I think I

36:22
understand what you're saying so so what

36:24
do we have a relationship with them

36:26
currently or not doesn't tell you

36:27
whether we cover their product so we

36:30
cover everything now whether we have a

36:33
relationship with them to help them

36:35
further than just having their indices

36:38
rated their annuities Putra model

36:42
allocation process that's a that's a

36:44
that those are two different things but

36:47
it also costs that carrier to work with

36:49
your company to take it to the next

36:51
level to provide that additional

36:52
information correct absolutely yes okay

36:55
and and that's yeah obviously the hurdle

36:58
of of every everything like this which

37:00
is okay I mean it's just it is what it

37:02
is but you do cover that carry you do

37:06
have as much information as they have

37:07
provided to you on that Index right or

37:10
industry

37:12
and you do the best you can with what

37:13
they have or do they even have to give

37:16
you that information for you to really

37:17
do a deep dive no one no one has to give

37:20
us give us anything on an index side the

37:22
moment an index comes Comes live gets

37:25
into the space that's fantastic cover it

37:28
okay and basically our our subscribers

37:31
what are their distribution or the

37:33
carriers get to see all of these indices

37:36
at once uh for the annuities it's a

37:39
little bit more complicated because it's

37:41
not all in index it's the annuity data

37:43
as well and you can guess that there is

37:46
a there is a lag where where we need to

37:49
get that from the carrier but again

37:51
that's the information that carriers are

37:54
willingly Supply or it's available in

37:56
the in the in the space because in the

37:58
in the future any uh the great part

38:00
about this podcast is is obviously it's

38:03
it's not softball in a Love Fest it is

38:05
us talking about

38:07
what's happening and what's good and I'm

38:09
so happy that renasloth is with this new

38:12
company the index standard and and kudos

38:15
to Jay and and um Lawrence I hope to

38:17
meet them soon

38:19
um with what you're doing but I hope in

38:21
the future and I Envision and maybe it's

38:23
there now is let's just say Mom and Pop

38:25
let's say Doris and and Bob Bob Johnson

38:29
and they're in you know they're in

38:33
middle of nowhere Kansas okay or North

38:35
Carolina and they've been pitched XYZ

38:38
indexed annuity only one

38:40
there has to be a place in the future

38:42
where they know that they can go

38:44
hopefully it's my site that they can

38:46
type in the carrier and that product

38:49
name and not only get the truth about

38:52
that product but good comparison

38:54
products as well is that what I'm am I

38:57
dreaming brownislav

38:59
I don't think you are I I think I think

39:02
that there are multiple way multiple

39:04
ways to to do that okay uh I think that

39:07
the first the first bit is and again

39:10
this is something that doesn't get

39:11
talked

39:12
much in Industry about is how do you

39:15
Benchmark these products what are the

39:17
comparisons right what are the things

39:18
that you ought to compare to these

39:20
Apples to Apples now if I mean I I'll

39:24
use this one

39:25
um the the

39:27
again

39:29
are you comparing Apples to Apples based

39:32
on the rates are you comparing Apples to

39:34
Apples based on the illustration are you

39:37
running this through

39:39
some kind of process are you back

39:42
testing are you forecasting

39:44
I think that the key is that you have to

39:47
bring them all to a Level Playing Field

39:49
I think

39:50
that

39:52
understanding

39:53
what the index is and I think of index

39:56
as a fuel what fuel goes into the engine

39:59
that's an index annuity now weather fuel

40:02
is good

40:03
makes no difference to you but our

40:05
engine is good makes no difference to

40:07
you what are these Fuel and this engine

40:09
work together well is what you as a mom

40:12
and pop care about and this is what we

40:14
are trying to to get at that we provide

40:16
this like an onion that you can

40:18
understand the annuity construct you can

40:20
understand index but when it comes to it

40:22
what we call the net forecast credit

40:24
it's something that people are used to

40:27
seeing what number they will tell you

40:29
and you're able to compare among

40:31
crediting strategies within annuities

40:33
and my debt by that token across

40:37
annuities as well

40:40
interesting and fascinating and you can

40:42
you know me being very familiar with the

40:44
canex platform obviously you know as you

40:47
were talking and about how that's going

40:49
to be laid out you can certainly

40:52
understand the canex

40:55
connection there because in essence what

40:57
you're trying to do is provide that same

40:59
type of Clearinghouse

41:01
objective view of what's out there so

41:05
that people can make their choices as if

41:07
it can't be as simplistic as when you

41:10
run an immediate annuity quote on my

41:12
site and you see from top to bottom what

41:14
the con what the number is because

41:16
that's real simple and that's the reason

41:17
I like that but I think you can get it

41:19
pretty close and it would be interesting

41:23
conversation look forward to it now I

41:25
got to come to New York now

41:27
um and and talk about how to do that

41:31
because I'm telling you what you're

41:33
doing here and I'm not sure you know you

41:36
Jay and Lawrence understands that at the

41:38
consumer side as much as you do maybe

41:40
they do but um

41:42
this is an industry changer that's the

41:45
reason I was excited to have you on this

41:46
this right here

41:48
is what's needed to clean up the space

41:52
of indexed annuities now that's just one

41:54
product type out there there's many

41:55
product types but this could clean it up

41:58
once and for all it really could so that

42:01
people would be making decisions not on

42:03
fictitious back tested numbers but on

42:06
projections just like they do with

42:08
everything else as I always tell people

42:10
if you think about mutual funds and I've

42:12
having been at Dean Woodward Payne Weber

42:15
Morgan Stanley UBS worked in New York

42:16
City to do the whole thing understand it

42:19
you know if you look historically at the

42:21
best mutual funds last year

42:24
they're probably not going to be the

42:25
best mutual funds this year you know

42:26
it's just it just happens that way yet

42:29
the annuity and streams hanging their

42:31
hat 100 on back tested return scenarios

42:35
to convince the Baby Boomers that are

42:38
retiring that this is a good idea this

42:41
will explode legally and it is right now

42:44
unless it's cleaned up and I'm hoping

42:46
that the National Insurance National

42:49
Association of insurance commissioners

42:52
you know are flying into New York and

42:54
Toronto every day to take you guys out

42:56
to dinner because this is the potential

42:58
solution for

43:00
issues coming down Pike in my opinion we

43:04
sure hope to do that you're right we

43:06
sure hope that uh again from naic's

43:08
point of view if you think about the the

43:10
current illustration regulation when it

43:13
was put in place

43:14
I think it was like well intended and it

43:16
was sure properly designed and sure in

43:19
the last 10 years in 2012 you had 2008

43:22
they would kind of Crash everything

43:24
that was fine no one

43:27
again kept it up to date now that your

43:30
last 10 years is probably the best

43:32
things that these people

43:34
have seen and probably will see in their

43:37
lifetimes and I don't think taking that

43:40
as a base case is is the same is the

43:43
same assumption

43:45
um I again I go back to to Word of the

43:48
Day caution I would caution against

43:50
using the last 10 years as an indication

43:53
of a performance of any kind correct

43:57
inside of an annuity outside of annuity

43:59
last 10 15 years have been really really

44:03
good

44:04
and we've also seen the other thing

44:07
changing that we went from like

44:11
like very low interest rates to now

44:13
again historically these are not high

44:15
interest rate numbers but it's high

44:17
compared to where it was three years

44:19
right correct and for people listen to

44:22
this check the date you know just we're

44:23
talking about current current and this

44:25
is Evergreen content so that's gonna be

44:28
um go ahead continue so those those two

44:30
things combine

44:32
that's what I'm most worried about it

44:34
what you're

44:36
telling about what you're saying is that

44:39
we have a structural problem and we can

44:42
agree or disagree the level of

44:44
structural problem but I think that we

44:47
could we can do better for moms and Bobs

44:50
and again I think like going back to my

44:52
grandma I thought we can do better for

44:55
people like my grandma that aside

44:58
but what what I think what we are also

45:01
have to be cognizant of is that we are

45:03
in a unique point in time that we went

45:06
off a bull run Truck Yeah crazy crazy

45:11
pandemic that did

45:14
raise raise issues in in the market sure

45:18
the interest rates going from zero to

45:21
some meaningful level now

45:23
combining the two I think that this the

45:27
the this this this time in in our in our

45:30
history will be will be will be

45:31
remembered the remembered is a right

45:34
word there's something in the industry

45:35
index annuity industry called renewal

45:38
rates and renewal rates um to the person

45:40
out there means that

45:42
let's just say you buy tenure surrender

45:44
charge product and the index option is a

45:46
one-year option so every year the the

45:49
annuity company can set the

45:52
participation caps spreads all of that

45:56
um every single year at their discretion

45:58
based on on numerous things

46:01
does your company the index standard

46:03
look at renewal rate history because

46:05
that's a big one in our world that no

46:07
one really talks about

46:10
I think a lot of people talk about it I

46:12
think the problem is it's so nobody does

46:15
anything about it no no

46:18
I would disagree I tried really hard

46:23
okay again getting the data and having

46:26
it somehow

46:28
anonymized so that you can report it

46:30
back that's hard man is is a problem

46:34
um I've tried that I think that that's

46:36
super important

46:38
um renewal rates are important and

46:40
people understanding what the rate of

46:42
today means

46:45
in a year or two years time now you have

46:47
products that would guarantee you the

46:49
rate for duration and I've recently had

46:51
extremely interesting conversations I

46:52
would ask me do you think it would be

46:55
appealing

46:56
if we were to offer a raid participation

46:59
rate or a cap rate that's a notch lower

47:02
than the High Street rate but guaranteed

47:06
for 10 years yes

47:08
and yes see and that's that's it right

47:11
there yes that's what we should do

47:13
because rational people will buy that

47:16
because when you were talking about

47:18
renewal rates I mean the problem with

47:19
renewal rates is is the is there one

47:22
word that messes the whole thing up from

47:24
a an analyst standpoint is the word

47:27
discretion in other words the annuity

47:30
companies reserve the right

47:32
at their discretion

47:34
to to change it the companies that are

47:38
thinking like that in other words if the

47:40
cap is eight at XYZ company and ABC

47:43
company comes in and goes okay we're

47:45
going to put it at six we're gonna put

47:47
it at six for ten years

47:49
you know that and give an example

47:52
that's going to be more I'm telling you

47:55
right now from the consumer standpoint

47:57
they're gonna they're gonna eat that up

47:59
if someone does that because

48:03
the hopes and dreams go away and and the

48:05
in the in the bad sales pitch goes away

48:07
in the rational thinking caps start

48:10
coming on and people start going okay I

48:13
understand that the other stuff

48:16
we gotta we gotta clean it up and make

48:18
it simple truly but it's also also it

48:21
comes down to

48:23
two

48:25
again this is kind of the the expertise

48:27
that we want to bring to the tabling and

48:29
there's there's enough people hating on

48:31
this type of index or that type of index

48:33
or like I don't like it with asset

48:35
manager I don't like it with a bank I'm

48:38
S P 500 only I think what what needs to

48:40
be understood is that

48:42
the S P 500 for example was never meant

48:45
to sit in an annuity it was meant to

48:48
track the largest 500 companies with

48:51
dividends with dividends included

48:55
that that again that's one kind that's

48:57
the total return then you have a price

48:58
return

48:59
out right

49:01
point being that now you have the second

49:04
generation of indices that are created

49:07
to eliminate

49:09
with furthest extent possible some of

49:12
that variability so if I I talked about

49:14
a little bit on on a participation rate

49:17
that we've observed the last two years

49:19
what are the two things that impact the

49:22
renewal rates is the option budget

49:24
basically interest rates sure any

49:27
fertility

49:28
sure if you have something that's highly

49:30
volatile and you don't have

49:32
don't have interest rates high enough to

49:35
to buy all these options

49:38
your participation tags your cap tanks

49:40
and you just lost you just lost 95 of

49:43
the public right there that conversation

49:45
just lost them done and I know you don't

49:48
believe that no no I I I do but then

49:50
then the key is that someone introduces

49:53
a concept would it eliminates

49:56
one of these two out of out of the

49:59
picture and says let's I'll let you

50:01
choose the volatility level I'll let you

50:03
choose the level that you're comfortable

50:05
with is that five percent seven and a

50:07
half ten percent and for that what

50:10
drives your participation is really

50:12
where the rates are are going to be

50:15
that's a a simplified half the story

50:18
already now Stan you got to do something

50:20
let me let me tell you something and I

50:23
and I've told you know obviously index

50:25
annuity companies would love for me to

50:26
push their product and I don't but I'm

50:28
gonna tell you something there's gonna

50:29
come a day there's gonna be a product

50:31
like that that I truly believe in on the

50:33
index side and when I tell people to buy

50:35
it because it's good it's gonna be game

50:39
over it's gonna be game over and they

50:41
better be able to take the inflow get a

50:44
retirement plans then no no no I don't

50:47
need no is it 3.0 no I no I don't need

50:51
I'm already there I don't need any more

50:53
um I I I'm giving money away now and I'm

50:56
fortunate it's been I'm I'm just now

50:58
here to make the industry better and to

51:00
piss everybody off that I need to piss

51:02
off but the point is

51:04
that if that product those types of

51:07
products start coming on board that are

51:08
pro-consumer that can be easily

51:10
explained on the index side all I have

51:12
to say to the carriers if if I if I

51:14
start saying let's buy that they better

51:16
be able to do the paperwork because

51:18
we'll suffocate them because people are

51:20
waiting for me to say this indexed

51:23
annuity is the right one this index

51:25
annuity can be explained to the

51:27
nine-year-old this index annuity will

51:29
not pull the rug out from under you this

51:31
index annuity is easy to understand and

51:34
this index annuity is fair and the

51:36
renewal rates are legit

51:38
I can't say that now I want to say that

51:43
I'm going to eventually say that which

51:45
is and I'm going to give your company

51:47
the index standard and you and Jay and

51:49
Lawrence the credit

51:51
for being a fresh voice out here because

51:54
up until see the interesting part about

51:56
where we are right now is now there's

51:58
lawsuits on this back tested stuff but

52:00
now we have someone that can that can

52:02
fill the void and get rid of that as a

52:05
legitimate source of information that

52:08
people can rely on and that's

52:10
I kudos to you guys for you know running

52:13
toward the bullets you know Pioneers

52:15
take all the arrows however you want to

52:16
say it but I'm excited to watch you guys

52:19
grow I'm excited to have those

52:20
conversations with you on how I think it

52:22
can be positioned

52:24
um I'm willing to pay whatever it takes

52:26
to get it on my side if I believe it's

52:29
it's pro-consumer and easy to understand

52:32
and I'm looking forward to that day when

52:34
you say Stan here's the Obscure

52:36
outrageous price you're gonna have to

52:38
pay for this giving away this

52:39
information for free and I'm going to

52:41
say who do I make the check out to

52:42
because I want to do that I want to

52:45
disrupt and change this index annuity

52:48
space for the better I like the product

52:49
I just don't like how it's being sold

52:51
right now period

52:54
no I I I I think we agree we agree on I

52:58
mean do you do you want to do a mic drop

53:00
or yeah man we got to do that is that it

53:04
nah man that was my micro up but you get

53:06
one in just a second and by the way just

53:08
then just to uh I'll have a full write

53:10
up on branislav on our on our site

53:12
obviously you know he is a friend and

53:14
he's a he's a Visionary and he's someone

53:16
that's very important in the industry

53:18
and um kudos to him and his partners for

53:21
for doing this and and coming on this

53:24
show because it's it's not a soft

53:26
landing spot I push people but I I like

53:28
what I'm hearing the index standard his

53:31
name is branisloff nikolich

53:34
um I'm assuming that um you have you

53:37
have uh from where are you originally

53:39
from from Serbia from Serbia we're a

53:43
very good basketballs played by the way

53:44
we're finding that out so um

53:48
this is a new uh New Era of it it was

53:51
always good no no it's always been good

53:54
that is exactly right it's always been

53:56
good

53:56
um so I digress because I put myself in

53:59
college playing basketball so

54:01
um my drop moment for branislogger I'm

54:03
going to cancel down five four three two

54:04
one and then you know wow us with your

54:06
expertise and in a in a very succinct

54:09
way and then I'll uh close us out and

54:12
we'll go from there so my drop moment

54:13
branislav from the College of the index

54:15
standard an absolute star in the

54:18
industry

54:19
and I'm hoping he doesn't move to

54:21
another one I hope he stays right here

54:23
in five four three two one go

54:27
thank you Stan I mean this was again

54:29
pleasure as usual

54:31
um my my Mike duck moment this time is

54:34
gonna be again I'll repeat myself

54:36
it's caution I think we are in a

54:39
you know defining times per industry I

54:42
think it's it's a pivotal moment

54:45
um I think that there is there is a will

54:48
to to change the industry

54:51
um I am not going to say that all is bad

54:53
and always Doom and Gloom no I think we

54:55
we tend to improve

54:58
um we are playing our role to um improve

55:01
the industry and most importantly

55:03
looking looking into into into into the

55:07
eyes of the end consumers

55:09
um Moms and Pops grandmas and grandpas

55:11
and helping them do better achieve

55:15
better have more money in their pockets

55:17
for their retirement and if we do that

55:20
that's what we will consider success

55:23
ladies and gentlemen that's Miranda slob

55:25
Nicole it's brandislav and stanislav on

55:27
the fun with annuities program today

55:29
we're going to have you back on I am

55:31
flying to New York here pretty soon I am

55:33
going to come see you and hopefully we

55:35
can start working to getting this type

55:38
of information on my site which my I'm

55:41
sure my board of directors are listening

55:43
to this and they're going to be saying

55:44
go to New York

55:46
that is going to happen sooner than

55:47
later but I want to thank everybody and

55:49
all the major podcast platforms

55:50
listening to us and obviously on the fun

55:52
with annuities YouTube channel I will

55:54
see you next time

56:01
[Music]