Andy Panko: Financial Planning Demystified and Unemotional (TAM Classic)

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[Music]

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welcome to fund with annuities where

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every single week I welcome a celebrity

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guest expert that can help you maximize

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chapter 2 of your life listen learn

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laugh and love every minute of the most

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unique Financial podcast on the planet

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let's get to

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[Music]

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it welcome to with annuities I'm your

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host Stan the annuity man America's

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annuity agent licensed in all 50 states

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as you know welcome to everybody on all

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the major podcast platforms and on the

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fun with annuities YouTube channel where

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you can see the dashingly good looks of

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both of me and my guest actually my

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guest not me you know what I look like

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for goodness sakes um but I'm very happy

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to have a brand new person on fund with

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annuities and he listen this guy he

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you're G to love this guy Andy Andy

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Panko is his name p n KO um born in

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Delaware went to University of Delaware

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got all the degrees then went to go Blue

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henss by the way and then went to uh

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ruter University and got some extra

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stuff goh Scarlet Knights um but kind of

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like me has been all over the place from

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the standpoint of working for firms and

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working for you know global insurance

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companies and banking firms and all that

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stuff and then he realized that's not

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what he wanted to do his passion was

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personal finance um there's a story in

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there that I'll I'll let him tell you

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but he is the owner of ton I think

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that's the way it's pronounced Financial

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t o n and all of that stuff's going to

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be on my site he's going to have his

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page all of our celebrity guests do have

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their own page on the site you can get

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all their stuff and email him and all

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that all that good stuff um he has a

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separate tax return preparation filing

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company called tentin on tax preparation

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um I found him through a Facebook group

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called taxes and retirement one of my

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clients turned me on to him that's how I

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found him and he has a great YouTube

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channel called retirement planning de

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mystified and I'll have all of that on

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there so without further Ado welcome

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Andy I appreciate you joining us hi

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thanks for having me super happy to be

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here and I appreciate the offer couple

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things before we get started uh we're

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both musicians Andy Andy is uh is an

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admitted sucker for mandolins and banjos

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I just bought a banjo the other day and

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I just bought an amplified Flying V

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banjo okay I know what you're saying

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what yeah yes yeah I I have no musical

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abilities I can play these instruments

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but I love the way they

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sound so it's a lot I you know anyone

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who says they're really good at guitar

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hasn't met a really good guitarist you

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know obviously I dink around with it and

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I'm out that good but one of the things

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that that and we'll we're going to jump

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into Financial stuff I promise everybody

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but when I have a person on the show

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that's actually done some stand-up

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comedy at Caroline's comedy club at

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Times Square and has done you know he

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been on TV he was a a contestant on

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hgtv's All-American handyman I mean

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you're talking about a diversified cat

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all right I'm gonna hand it to you Andy

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let's go from here wow that's a lot I'm

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gonna ask for joke later you got you

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gonna end this thing with a joke but

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tell me about the non joke which is

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people's retirement and financial

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planning sure so yeah business name is

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ten in financial I called it ton because

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I'm from the south and that's how we

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pronounce things but then that's

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accurate then go with it yeah it's like

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uh it's like here in New Jersey we say

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Insurance most the rest of the country

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says insurance insurance that's exact

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that's exactly right yeah but you know

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so and also born in New Jersey not born

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in Delaware uh I was born in Delaware

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that's right yeah did go to school in

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Delaware um but born in New Jersey so go

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Bruce Springsteen and bagels and not

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pumping our own gas you know New Jersey

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all the

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way so yeah uh retirement planning I

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quick background I wanted to be a

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financial adviser when I graduated

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University of Delaware in 2000 went to

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school there for finance didn't know

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what an advisor does or what the job

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looks like I just knew I wanted to help

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people with money decisions basically um

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interviewed at a lot of large household

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name places insurance companies and

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brokerage firms that everyone listening

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and watching has heard of and wasn't

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what I thought it would be not knocking

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products but they were all just sell

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this loaded mutual fund or sell this

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insurance or gather assets there's

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there's no talk of advice or planning or

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general guidance so kind of got

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disenfranchised gave up on the idea and

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stumbled into an Actuarial role at a at

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a large major insur on on the corporate

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side not sales not advising just helping

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price and value and understand it was a

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particular type of pension product I

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worked on um and then also worked on

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their general account for a little bit

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helping manage that and moved on to you

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know beyond that uh fast forward so that

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was early 2000 um spent most of my

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career in institutional Banking and in

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global Capital markets largely financing

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hedge funds and private Equity Funds

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with derivative trades Prime brokerage

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uh doing risk management of that

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and made good money did cool things

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worked with a lot of great people but

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always wasn't quite fulfilled wanted to

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do something more direct with people

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actually helping individuals not helping

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other Banks or hedge funds or private

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Equity Funds and was still always

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interested in personal finance um what

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what really sort of changed my future

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and career trajectory was 2016 I believe

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it was my mother was transitioning into

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retirement she was already working with

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the traditional percent of assets under

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management uh adviser at a large place

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we all heard of and my mom was trying to

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figure out how to claim Social Security

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and she has one of the the Harrier

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scenarios where she's divorced from my

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dad she's of an age where she can still

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do the uh restricted application you

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know to get her benefits or his and take

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hers later and and her adviser wasn't

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able to help her really iron out that

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decision and and didn't apparently

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didn't know all the Social Security

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nuances well enough to give her a you

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know firm committed answer yes you can

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or cannot do this strategy so that's

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when I got involved knew nothing about

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social security I thought it was

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basically personal savings accounts for

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savings accounts um that the government

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set up for us and uh just learned a

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tremendous amount and in researching

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Social Security like the light went off

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the proverbial light went off over my

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head I was like yes this is the advice

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and planning and help that I thought

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existed that I thought I wanted to do

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you know 16 years prior when I wanted to

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be an advisor and I realized yeah okay

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this is it you know this social security

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decision is probably the most impactful

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thing my mom can do for her financial

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future it's not farting around and over

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complicating the mutual fund allocation

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decision uh you know it's not all the

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other stuff that typical advisors

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normally do not to say they're

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unimportant but that's not the real

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value in many cases so so that got me

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thinking like wow what if there's a way

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to do a business where you really are

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giving planning and guidance and yeah

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you can still do Investments and yeah

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insurance is important um they need to

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be considered but the focus should be on

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the planning and the guidance and the

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advice so so that got me on a path of

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just researching and learning and I came

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across a few podcasts and blogs that

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that blew the lid off for me um

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specifically the XY Planning Group and I

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was like Wow there are people out there

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who have businesses and fee models that

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are either just advice or advice and

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investment but with the focus on the

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advice the planning and and like Yep

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this is it and the more I listened the

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more I read I realize I can do things I

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can start a business giving Financial

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advice the way I think it should be

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given charging how I think people should

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be charged for it focusing on what I

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want to focus on I always knew taxes

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were important and that most advisers

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kind of sorry we don't do tax planning

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sure um because there's tax implications

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to virtually everything in a financial

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life and that was kind of it that that

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just that was 2016 from that point

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forward I was like yep let let me do

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this and do it by my terms and while I'm

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at it let me try to change my life up so

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I don't have to schlep to and from New

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York so I live in New Jersey worked in

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Manhattan long commute to and from every

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day long hours kind of Shackled to a

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desk you know 8 to six um and I was just

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like let me let me just completely pivot

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not just the work I do but how I do it

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let me work from home work for myself by

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myself and uh it all culminated and I

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decided 2019 will be the year I uh leave

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my old life and and start up my own solo

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retirement planning Investment

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Management business tenant financial and

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here I am and ten and financial now is

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just at full capacity we talked about

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that before and just for people keeping

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score Andy is a certified financial

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planner Andy is a retirement income

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certified professional RCP and he also

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is an enrolled agent with the

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IRS so when he talks about taxes he can

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talk about taxes because he's qualified

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to talk about taxes because the IRS has

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deemed him qualified to talk about taxes

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so I think that's um I think that and

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and when you talk I think that's

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fantastic because if you're going to get

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tax advice the person needs to know what

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the heck they're talking there's a lot

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of people that lead with tax advice and

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then try to sell you something sure when

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you retirement planning

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demystified Define and go into the

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demystification when you started taking

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it apart the way you thought it should

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be taken apart and then and then

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presenting it to people as this is way

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it should be what did that look like and

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what does that look

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like so it it sounds super cheesy and

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hokey and cliche but it's it's genuinely

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true I I am an educator at heart I I

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have taught at at Ruckers for their uh

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graduate school business I taught four

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or five semesters there teaching Finance

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um I also am not that I have but I'm

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certified to teach High School in New

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Jersey so if I ever want to go teach

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there you know I got my certification to

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teach in high school so I I truly enjoy

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the educating the teaching the

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explaining maybe part of it I like

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hearing myself talk you know um which

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very well could a bit of it but you got

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Meed so I I enjoy teaching and and what

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happened was it's back up so I started

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tenin Financial November 2019 from from

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true zero no clients no revenue and I

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was doing this stuff I thought advisers

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were supposed to do to drum up business

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I was doing local library seminars

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trying to capture emails and phone

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numbers yeah I was taking out estate

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planning attorneys and CPAs to lunch you

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know the centers of influence marketing

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I joined the local uh uh Chamber of

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Commerce and went to one of their mixers

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and I mean not much was working but it

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was only a few months and then Co

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happened you know three or four months

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into me starting the business and all

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that shut down right no more Library

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seminars no more lunches no more mixers

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I was like man now what this isn't cool

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uh so I started getting active online I

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already had a Twitter page a LinkedIn

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page a Facebook business page and none

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of them really were were clicking but I

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started a Facebook group I'll get to the

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YouTube thing I swear uh started a

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Facebook group called taxes in

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retirement I I knew I wanted to have a

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very clear focus on retirement planning

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from from a tax efficiency perspective

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hence the name tax is retirement there's

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other retirement planning groups out

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there but I was like let me be the tax

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guy let me Pitch the tent as the uh

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taxes and retirement spot and did that

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and just started posting things um

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answering questions sharing others

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articles and things and and it just it

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took off within months it just you know

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uh joiners are fast and furious now it's

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over 25,000 people I think um but

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another month or two after that

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I decided let me not pigeon hole myself

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and and how people perceive me as just

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the tax guy because I I do do and know

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and provide broader financial and and

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retirement planning including

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Investments including again insurance I

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don't sell insurance I intentionally do

11:44
not have licenses but I work on a few

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good platforms and have good connections

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that I refer people

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to and so in an effort to not be just

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the tax guy I thought let me start a

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YouTube channel and have it called

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something more General hence retirement

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planning Demis you know there's no the

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name doesn't key in on just tax and why

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you mistified I I frankly don't know um

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I just I knew I didn't want to be again

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pigeon hold is just tax it's still

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largely tax focused the stuff I

12:11
discussed but I wanted it to come off as

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a broader thing with educational focus

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and I just sorted like all let me go

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with the mystified um because I I think

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and I've been told by you know the the

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professors I worked for and students I

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had and and people I talked to that I'm

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I'm fairly good at br taking things down

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and educating and taking you know

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complex topics and uh making them

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palatable and digestible in plain

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English so I figured let me call it

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demystified because yes retirement

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planning has a lot going on there's a

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lot to unpack but if I can parse out

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bits at a time and and break those down

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into pling English for folks then I like

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to think I'm helping to demystify

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it so that's a YouTube video uh Channel

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couple things that I think people would

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find interesting about you um is kind of

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your view on life you have three things

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and you wrote I'll tell them to people

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and I just loved it his three things his

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that that he looks at on life is

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anything worth doing is is worth doing

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well number one which I like number two

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don't take yourself too

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seriously I'll add I'll add what I put

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on the end of that but be serious about

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what you do obviously his and then the

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third thing is be

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nice and um I don't know if you took the

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third one from Patrick suy and Roadhouse

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you know remember he's talking to the

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bouncers he goes be nice well what if

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they be nice and I think that is uh

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that's a lost art in the because a lot

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of people out here think they're Masters

13:38
of the Universe and they're not and I

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think that's it's refreshing that you

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you you look at things from a very

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pragmatic standpoint I would encourage

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everybody at this point I'm just gonna

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promote for Andy he has a newsletter

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it's free I would sign up for it go to

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his Facebook um group sign up for it go

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to his YouTube channel Channel um so

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taxes in retirement taxes in retirement

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three words Facebook group and Tenon but

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in the South we call it Tenon fin ton

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Financial um and and what's the what's

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the address there andy it's tenin

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financial.com tenen Financial t n

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Financial all onew word.com sign up for

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his newsletter list tell us about the

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YouTube channels taken off obviously we

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would love to with your permission add

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you as one of those channels we approve

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of for our people to look at on our

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YouTube channel tell us about that

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YouTube channel and not the goals but

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what drives you there and what people

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will find from the standpoint of

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categories and um playlist and things

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like that sure so the the goal with that

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and I started all this stuff not really

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knowing what I exactly wanted from I

14:50
mean I'd be lying if I were to say I

14:51
didn't want clients and business

14:53
development and it's worked but I I hate

14:57
sales I cringe at the of having to sell

14:59
in the traditional sense so I never

15:01
wanted to have a traditional lead

15:03
capture where it's like hey give me your

15:05
email and I'll give you this free

15:06
handout or sign up for my webinar give

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me your name and phone number and you're

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on you're on my marketing list I know

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that stuff works and I understand why

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but I just it's not me so I wanted to

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get as much content out there to do a

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few things one again I truly enjoy maybe

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it's I like hear myself talk but I truly

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enjoy just feeling like I'm educating

15:26
and helping um

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and I knew I needed exposure especially

15:31
since Co shut down physical interactions

15:33
so I thought this would be a great way

15:34
to get

15:35
exposure and specifically by doing

15:38
video people can can see me hear me know

15:42
what I look like get my mannerisms get

15:44
get my corny dad jokes so they they feel

15:46
like they know me if and when they ever

15:48
decide to consider me for a paid

15:51
engagement like they in theory are

15:53
already comfortable with me they know

15:54
what to expect and what not to expect so

15:57
anyway the the YouTube channel was let

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me just make deep dive

16:01
educational um again plain English try

16:04
to break things down so that any uh uh

16:08
reasonably intelligent adult can can

16:10
understand it and I started by doing

16:13
formally scripted stuff you know I I was

16:15
literally had my iPhone with a

16:16
teleprompter app that I I'd look at and

16:18
read and and that's how I recorded So

16:21
the first few dozen videos I did were

16:23
that uh and it was scripted 10 15

16:26
minutes long with slides and over LS and

16:28
charts and I did a whole series on

16:30
annuities nice you know fixed indexed

16:33
and variable and even

16:35
QX and um again technical pretty long

16:39
form it's not like the typical clickbait

16:41
three minute videos with a flashy page

16:43
like five things you have to do today

16:45
and you click into it and it's all just

16:47
fluff there there's no poomp And Flare

16:49
this is just like meat and potatoes

16:51
content that I can look at analytics a

16:53
lot of people drop off pretty early on

16:56
but those that truly want sort of

16:58
academic based but plain English deep

17:01
dive into things that's who I'm trying

17:03
to speak to um and it seems to be

17:06
resonating so you know now it's over

17:09
10,000 people I started it I already

17:11
know what year it is it's less than two

17:12
years ago

17:14
sure growing fairly well 15 to 20

17:18
something people a day joining uh and

17:21
and that was kind of it so I started

17:22
with those scripted ones and then what I

17:24
also do is in my Facebook group I do a

17:26
weekly live video every Wednesday night

17:28
typically a deep dive in a certain topic

17:30
but with live Q&A from people in the

17:31
group and I'd also replay those video uh

17:34
uh post up replays of those videos to

17:36
the YouTube channel now those are like

17:37
an hour to an hour and a half those are

17:39
really long

17:40
form but again for the for the people

17:42
who are looking for that right it's it's

17:45
it seems to be solid gold I was just

17:47
gonna say it's it's a Jerry Seinfeld

17:49
gold it's gold you know people people

17:52
are used to advisors that you know you

17:56
you you enter an agreement with them and

17:58
their fees are based on the size of your

18:00
in uh investment accounts Etc I think

18:02
what's unique about what you do and once

18:04
again um you you are book solid but you

18:07
are trying to figure out how to refer to

18:09
people that you trust Etc that that

18:11
follow your guidelines but for you it's

18:14
a flat annual fee it doesn't matter if

18:16
you have $20 million or $2 million or

18:19
$500,000 or whatever and I think when

18:21
people are looking for a trusted

18:23
fiduciary partner which is I guess what

18:25
you are that provides Financial tax

18:28
whole shooting match that flat annual

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fee seems like a like a

18:32
bargain What landed you there just the

18:35
fact that that made sense to you or that

18:37
no one was really doing it right in that

18:39
space it's a mix of things it's a bit of

18:42
of both so I my experiences trying to

18:46
get into the industry again go back to

18:47
when I was in college and the jobs

18:50
called financial advisor were just

18:51
commission sales and not knocking

18:53
commission sales but I didn't feel that

18:55
was the way I wanted to give advice I

18:57
don't want to sell product and getting

18:59
paid for consummation of a product

19:01
transaction you're not paid for the

19:03
quality or quantity of advice you give

19:06
so I knew that wasn't the route I wanted

19:08
to ultimately go even the percent of

19:11
assets which is what the vast majority

19:13
of advisers

19:15
do isn't is a far from perfect uh fee

19:19
model and it never really seemed right

19:21
to me and I worked professionally in the

19:23
percent of AUM model again dealing with

19:24
hedge funds private Equity Funds most of

19:26
my career and for people out AUM means

19:29
assets under management in the business

19:31
right that's what that

19:33
means and I I saw and knew what goes

19:37
into managing money managing Investments

19:39
and I knew the amount of time effort

19:42
resources expertise

19:44
needed wasn't directly related to asset

19:47
size asset size alone is frankly quite

19:49
arbitrary in determining the effort and

19:52
time and resources and you know whatever

19:53
it takes uh to to to do that process and

19:56
service those clients so I was always is

19:58
thinking there's got to be a better way

20:00
I mean frankly I think pure hourly is

20:02
the most Equitable but it's never going

20:04
to work for ongoing advisory

20:07
relationships because clients will be

20:08
reluctant to pick up the phone or send

20:10
an email for fear of running the clock

20:11
that's true but in theory that's the

20:13
most Fair model but but again won't work

20:15
for ongoing I'm sure some people do it

20:18
but it's never going to fully catch on

20:21
um next to that I I I feel the best

20:23
model is some sort of complexity based

20:26
where you're using complexity as a

20:28
measure of your time and expertise and

20:31
resources

20:32
provided so in principle I like the idea

20:35
of complexity based but the more you try

20:37
to make a model to accurately account

20:39
for complexity the model becomes

20:40
unwieldy the fee structure becomes

20:42
unwieldy I'm like man that's not really

20:43
going to do it either so I figured and

20:47
part of the reason why flat fee works is

20:49
that I have a very tightly defined

20:51
Universe of clients I wanted to work

20:53
with they're all more or less going to

20:55
be in the same stage of Life have the

20:57
same general level of comp complexities

20:58
all have the same general planning

21:02
needs um so so asset size is is frankly

21:06
irrelevant now I do draw limits I mean I

21:08
sort of draw a line in the S at about 10

21:10
million are net worth because I realize

21:11
at higher levels of assets yes there is

21:13
more complexity estate planning you know

21:15
creative uses of insurance and whatever

21:17
you have to worry about death taxes

21:19
inheritance and state taxes so I I stop

21:21
there so I don't you know charge a flat

21:22
fee for people with hundred million

21:23
bucks I'll just say no to

21:25
them and then on on the side so here's

21:28
the fla with percent of assets under

21:30
management um as I said the work isn't

21:33
linear to the asset size advisor

21:34
shouldn't make more money just because

21:36
assets go up now advisors can fool

21:38
themselves and thinking they're

21:39
providing Alpha and and deserve it but

21:40
no vast majority of advisors there's a

21:42
lot of beta you know Market based moves

21:44
in their portfolio sure that the market

21:46
is what makes assets go up and so

21:49
advisors kind of overcharge a lot of

21:51
cases with clients uh for clients have a

21:53
lot of assets but on the flip side

21:56
advisor shouldn't be paid less just

21:58
because the markets go down they're

21:59
still doing the same amount of work

22:01
providing the same Services Etc so I was

22:04
like let me come up with a fee knowing

22:07
that I have the same kind of homogeneous

22:09
pool of clients that all sort of want

22:11
and need the same things from me let me

22:13
come up with a fee that I think is fair

22:15
for the value and service and resources

22:17
I'll be providing where asset size

22:18
frankly doesn't matter at all and I I I

22:20
could truly say that um I actually have

22:24
many cases where clients with a million

22:25
dollars are a lot more work in time than

22:27
clients with million yet traditional

22:30
percent of asset model would have the

22:32
higher asset clients paying you know two

22:33
to five times more which is ridiculous

22:35
so that that's how I came up with the

22:37
flat fee it made a lot of sense in my

22:38
head and I can't think of any other

22:40
professional service where outside of

22:43
investment management where the fee is

22:46
in effect means tested or you pay based

22:48
on how much you have right the one case

22:51
I came up with which makes sense is

22:54
lawyers when they represent you for uh

22:56
some sort of lawsuit and they take like

22:58
30% of your winnings now that's pure

23:01
Alpha in financial speak meaning if you

23:03
didn't hire that lawyer you wouldn't

23:04
have any of that money in the first

23:05
place right right so if they do directly

23:08
get you you know a million dollar

23:10
lawsuit settlement sure that they should

23:12
take a cut of it that's not what we do

23:15
in financial advising and those that

23:16
manage Investments again are fooling

23:17
themselves if they think they're

23:18
uniquely uh responsible for the client's

23:20
portfolio going up they're not so don't

23:23
charge on it I'm kind of ranting now but

23:25
but that that's the place I came from

23:28
I like it it's pure and it makes sense

23:30
and it's simple um and it's rational and

23:33
I think people out there going man that

23:35
that that's the way it should be and I

23:37
guess when you started the business in

23:40
2019 um you followed your passion and

23:42
you say well how how would I like it how

23:45
how do I think it should work and that

23:47
there you know here we are with you with

23:49
a waiting list and and not taking any

23:51
new clients on but but for people out

23:53
there don't that doesn't mean don't sign

23:55
up for his newsletter don't he is

23:57
working on some things that can't be

23:58
revealed right now um just from the

24:00
standpoint of of potential referrals to

24:03
people that are in a space I just

24:04
referred to recently in the world of

24:07
do-it-yourself investors um you

24:11
know you almost have to reprogram those

24:14
people I would think a little bit to not

24:16
just think like you do but but have um

24:20
realistic uh expectations of the process

24:24
can you kind of go through some examples

24:26
of that and maybe um um some of the

24:29
hurdles people have with going to

24:31
someone like you or someone that's that

24:33
uh isn't trying to find on the next

24:35
Tesla you're trying to find them

24:37
lifestyle and peace of mind and TurnKey

24:41
yes th that that's the challenge a lot

24:44
of people equate advisor with simply

24:46
someone who's going to try to beat the

24:48
markets so like my adviser got me X

24:50
percent what did yours do yeah and

24:53
Investment Management even good

24:55
investment management has become

24:56
increasingly cheap easy and commoditized

24:59
to do and do well again I I worked in

25:01
institutional Investments I I I've seen

25:03
the best and the brightest bepoke unique

25:05
strategies hedge funds private Equity

25:07
Funds that all thought they had some

25:08
Alpha and Edge yeah and and some some

25:10
did really well a lot did not and most

25:13
of them just sort of hovered around you

25:15
know the returns that indexes would

25:17
would provide sure yet they charge 2% of

25:20
assets and management 20% of of profit

25:22
so go figure um the the value in good

25:26
planning and advice is it investment

25:28
management and I tell my clients this

25:30
any monkey with a computer can do what I

25:31
do from an investment perspective

25:34
there's some value to be had but that is

25:35
by far uh not the most uh not the

25:39
biggest piece of value I'm a passive

25:41
index based guy I do that myself

25:44
personally and for clients now there's

25:45
some folks out there that say

25:47
accumulation is different than

25:48
decumulation th% accurate but that

25:51
doesn't mean you still can't use

25:52
traditional investment of products just

25:53
rethink the way you use them and manage

25:55
them from a decumulation perspective Ive

25:58
um so what I found with my clients is a

26:02
lot of them are already quite educated

26:04
about financial stuff and that's how

26:05
they found me by seeking out you know

26:08
the the content I make so they were

26:10
already sort of DIY passive investors to

26:13
start with and know the Investments

26:15
well and most people can do accumulation

26:19
well in life it's a decumulation where

26:22
things get more tactical and complicated

26:25
because there's a bunch of things

26:27
merging there's okay I saved all these

26:29
Assets Now I have some in tax deferred

26:31
accounts like my 401k I have regular

26:33
brokerage assets maybe I have some Roth

26:35
assets I got cash value life insurance I

26:37
got Social Security how does that tie in

26:39
I got a pension what do I do with that I

26:40
got home equity tying all this stuff

26:43
together into a

26:45
cohesive action plan to how to turn this

26:47
all into income while trying to manage

26:49
the tax efficiency and keep taxes as low

26:51
as reasonably possible over the long

26:52
term that's what I do uh Investments are

26:55
part of it but it's it's a small part

26:57
part of it the the actual carrying out

27:00
of investing and trading rebalancing is

27:02
commoditized is easy and it takes no

27:05
more time for a $5 million account as it

27:06
does a $500,000 account 100%

27:10
truth is this your passion is this what

27:12
you're going to do the rest of your life

27:14
besides trying to play mandolin and

27:16
banjo I did try to pick up guitar a few

27:18
years ago and did not go well I

27:20
understand uh I understand banjo would

27:21
be even more difficult uh it is it is

27:24
and as you mentioned my my business is

27:26
that Capac capacity I hit it in two

27:28
years I am a true solo have zero

27:31
assistance and that's

27:32
intentional um but that doesn't mean I

27:34
don't want to keep trying to better the

27:37
industry or at least what I perceive to

27:40
to be bettering the industry um it

27:42
doesn't mean I'm not going to keep

27:43
beating the drum about the value and

27:46
benefit of flat fees they're not perfect

27:48
no fee models perfect but I think in the

27:51
right circumstance like mine again

27:53
homogeneous pool of clients all kind of

27:55
getting and doing the same things makes

27:58
sense percent of assets is flat out dumb

28:00
um and just continuing to educate about

28:03
not just the industry but the products

28:05
the strategies the the things I talk

28:07
about in the Facebook group and YouTube

28:09
I am truly passionate about that so I I

28:12
don't want my business my my day job to

28:14
completely consume me I do not work 60

28:17
70 80 hours a week and there's times of

28:18
the year where I am much busier than

28:20
others but my goal is to have clients

28:23
that I can properly serve and service

28:26
well

28:28
without you know anything falling

28:29
through the cracks and without

28:30
stretching myself too thin but still

28:32
giving me time to follow what else I'm

28:34
passionate about the education of this

28:36
stuff they trying to change the industry

28:37
from the inside out and just spread the

28:39
message about things I think are

28:40
important that that I think clients

28:41
think are

28:42
important Wayne Gretzky hockey player

28:45
always said you know I don't skate

28:47
behind the puck I skate where the Puck's

28:49
going to be and I always like to ask

28:52
people like you who I consider

28:53
Visionaries in the space your Pioneers

28:56
um where's the puck where are you

28:59
skating where where's the puck going um

29:01
in the financial world and with your

29:04
business man you're giving me way too

29:06
much credit I'm far from a Visionary I

29:09
you are believe me I I think a lot of

29:12
other advisor some flat out don't get it

29:14
and and we'll you know I do get in

29:15
heated debates arguments on LinkedIn and

29:18
other venues about fee models right

29:20
maybe I push buttons too hard and I I do

29:22
get so boxy at times which I'm trying to

29:25
work on that but think a lot of advisers

29:28
get where I'm coming from and and I've

29:30
had lots of advisers reach out to me

29:31
like man I love how you're doing you

29:33
know I thought about that before I

29:34
didn't think it could be done part of

29:36
the problem

29:38
is advisors may be hamstr strong if you

29:41
already have a business built on percent

29:42
of AUM you got a 100 clients or whatever

29:44
it is you can't just turn and and start

29:46
charging everyone a flat fee it means

29:48
you're gonna have to charge a lot of

29:49
clients more and a lot of clients less

29:51
and that's going to be awkward

29:52
conversations on both sides it is um so

29:55
even if existing advisor genuinely feel

29:58
flat fee makes more sense they may not

30:00
be able to do it whereas I had the

30:02
benefit of starting from scratch I can

30:05
structure this fee however I wanted you

30:07
know with with no reservations or

30:09
problem take it or leave it this is it

30:11
exactly and so I hit it hard the message

30:13
was clear from day one you know my my

30:15
positioning my messaging was retirement

30:18
de accumulation Focus that right there

30:20
is a bit of a standout because most

30:22
advisors are just

30:23
accumulation um tax focused a lot of

30:27
revisers Flatout can't do tax if you're

30:29
working at a big wirehouse or insurance

30:31
company they will tell you you are not

30:32
allowed to do tax planning correct right

30:35
and then and then flat fee so that that

30:38
one by itself is a huge differentiator

30:41
the other

30:42
two aren't complete differentiators but

30:44
big enough but you package these three

30:46
together and that's what really clicked

30:48
for me distribution focused tax focused

30:50
flat fee I I've yet to find someone that

30:53
hits those three things to the same

30:54
extent I do which is why I think those

30:56
who did find me was like boom you know

30:57
if they were looking for that here I am

30:59
prepackaged the messaging was clear the

31:01
content the uh everything I put out

31:04
there they can see my knowledge what I

31:05
know what I don't know it's all you know

31:08
they knew what they were getting and

31:09
those that wanted it it was a great

31:11
match and I think that's why I hit aacy

31:13
within you know two years we both work

31:15
for large Warehouse firms and big firms

31:18
and that's kind of both of our

31:19
backgrounds you're a lot younger than I

31:20
am but I work with firms that were

31:22
absorbed like Dean Whitter was absorbed

31:24
by Morgan Stanley and Payne Weber was

31:26
absorbed by Bank of Switzerland yeah is

31:29
the is the traditional Legacy brokerage

31:32
model in your

31:34
opinion too broken to

31:40
fix it's it's not going to go away in my

31:43
lifetime it's slowly getting pressure to

31:46
change from the outside and inside the

31:48
writing is on the wall that traditional

31:52
brokerage product focused

31:54
relationships aren't the wave of the

31:57
future they're so going to always need

31:58
to be there people always need the

32:00
products that brokerages and insurance

32:02
companies sell I'm not again as much as

32:04
it sounds like I am I I am not

32:06
downplaying the importance and necessity

32:08
of those products right what I am uh I

32:11
want to say downplaying but what I don't

32:13
agree with is people who only sell

32:14
things trying to put themselves out to

32:16
the world as broader comprehensive

32:19
advisors why am I going with this oh The

32:21
Brokerage industry

32:24
um I mean anecdotally I you know you

32:27
investment news you read other industry

32:28
Publications and and wirehouses and

32:31
insurance companies like have been

32:32
trying to put more Focus towards

32:33
advisory business percent of AUM if

32:35
nothing else because it's good money

32:37
it's it's steady stable subject to

32:39
Market dips obviously but it's easy way

32:41
to project Revenue it's the easy way to

32:43
project revenue and and they realize

32:46
planning and advice is going to continue

32:48
to be more in demand than just a product

32:51
sale or just management of Investments

32:53
so the industry is definitely I want to

32:56
say pivoting but but giving more

32:58
attention to advice and planning but

33:02
they're going to by that I mean like The

33:03
Brokerage industry at large insurance

33:05
industry at large are going to struggle

33:06
to find ways to get there they can't

33:08
completely just Shed off the businesses

33:11
and products they have they need to try

33:13
to find a way to uh transition or at

33:16
least you know do both simultaneously

33:18
somehow I know your process is is very

33:21
is is just very solid and it's facts

33:24
facts based driven but we when we have

33:27
Black Swan events like like Co or other

33:30
countries invading you know pick your

33:33
country this month it might be another

33:34
one next month and things happen that

33:37
you don't

33:39
foresee from your standpoint from a

33:41
planning I'm assuming that your clients

33:43
they're like everyone else they're

33:45
worried and concerned what are you

33:46
telling them during these

33:49
times I got a a few responses to that

33:52
one is to try to make the plan as good

33:56
as it can be initially and the plan

33:58
should in theory account for stuff like

34:00
this we all know dips and geopolitical

34:03
events and uh unpredictable inflation

34:06
and oil prices and whatever are going to

34:09
happen so try to structure your plan as

34:12
best as possible to account for those

34:14
things and now by plan notice I didn't

34:16
just say structure your Investments and

34:17
didn't just say structure your insurance

34:19
or whatever the plan is is all those

34:22
things working cohesively so so what I

34:24
do I like to think it's a mix sort of

34:27
the the best of all world it's not just

34:29
insurance it's not just Investments it's

34:31
not just real estate it's kind of

34:35
everything guaranteed lifetime income is

34:37
important Social Security is one of the

34:39
best things people can have you know

34:42
what you know last for life with

34:44
inflation adjustments it's the best

34:46
inflation annuity on the planet it

34:47
really is so maximize that make the most

34:51
out of that is definitely you know a

34:53
Cornerstone of my process if people have

34:56
pensions they're lucky enough to have

34:57
traditional Divine benefit pensions same

34:59
thing let's get the most out of that not

35:01
just for you but for your spouse if

35:02
we're married sure um and then if you

35:06
have annuities if you have cash value

35:07
life insurance I don't just say shed

35:09
them off you know we'll invest no look

35:11
at them how can they be used how can

35:12
they be beneficial and and the analysis

35:14
comes down to you know my basic

35:17
approach let's try to project out your

35:19
expenses as best as we reasonably can

35:21
now there'll be a lot of frankly

35:22
educated guessing because we're looking

35:23
out 30 years into the future sure but

35:26
doesn't mean you don't have to do the

35:27
exercise still and and try to figure out

35:29
how much of those expenses are basic

35:32
necessities versus fun stuff and the

35:34
goal the underlying goal is cover as

35:36
much of your basic necessities as

35:38
possible with money that can't run out

35:39
Social Security pension and or

35:43
annuity if and when your Basics are

35:45
covered then this is where it gets a

35:47
little more gray and depends on the

35:48
client H how sensitive are they to risks

35:51
you know will they lose sleep if they

35:53
see their portfolios go down are they

35:55
gamblers at heart on the other hand

35:57
or do they have such a sizable nest egg

35:59
that even under the worst of

36:00
circumstances they're not going to

36:01
possibly be able to spend it down um

36:04
that all helps decide do we consider you

36:06
buying more guaranteed income in the

36:08
form of inity or are you okay with you

36:11
know this remainder of your financial

36:13
life being in an investable portfolio

36:16
traditional stock and bond type

36:17
portfolio you know layering some cash as

36:19
well whether it's actual cash and Banks

36:21
or multi-year guaranteed annuities or

36:23
something sure Factor all that in so

36:27
what I'm going with this is what you're

36:29
referencing is the investable portfolio

36:31
right because if you have an annuity if

36:32
you have a Social Security doesn't

36:33
matter what happens in Russia Ukraine

36:35
doesn't matter what oil prices are well

36:36
I mean it does because of inflation but

36:38
um your guaranteed income is there good

36:42
so it's just the investable pot that's

36:44
impacted by this stuff and in the

36:46
analysis in in the plan in in meeting

36:48
with clients to try to faret out their

36:50
risk tolerances risk capacities feelings

36:52
towards risk we set up the investable

36:54
portfolio to to to have enough exposure

36:57
to growth to meet whatever their goals

36:58
may be be it leaving a legacy be it

37:00
simply not running out um with not

37:04
having so much risk that events like now

37:07
or what if the US Stock markets drop 30%

37:09
like they did during covid sure and

37:10
don't bounce back anytime soon aren't

37:12
going to put them in a in a position of

37:14
undo harm or real financial distress and

37:18
different clients have different tales

37:19
for this stuff again some some at one

37:21
extreme may want all of their income

37:23
locked up in in Social Security pension

37:25
annuities in which case great that's the

37:27
approach we'll take other clients are

37:29
okay with the sort of hybrid approach of

37:30
get the most you can from the lifetime

37:33
income you have and it's okay to invest

37:35
the rest in a in a suitable you know

37:36
suitable portfolio sure and then

37:38
everywhere in between so long way of

37:40
saying in events like now this was going

37:43
to happen I didn't specifically know

37:44
Russia would invade Ukraine but we knew

37:47
some event would happen especially the

37:49
the stock markets were long overdue for

37:51
some sort of

37:52
Correction I'm not surprised what's

37:54
going on now is going on with the stock

37:56
markets I'm Frank surprised things

37:57
aren't down more um you know S&P 500's

38:00
down a little over 10% as of when we're

38:02
recording this I think I'm surprised

38:04
it's not down more I sort of hope it to

38:06
go down more to further cool off the the

38:08
peak it was at but this was point is

38:11
this was already accounted for now my

38:13
messaging to clients when they sign up

38:15
and you know we go through this sort of

38:17
courtship process before becoming former

38:19
relationship is They Know My Views they

38:21
know I'm hands off I'm passive as long

38:24
as your allocations you know your

38:26
guaranteed is what it is your investable

38:28
portfolio we we dial in your allocations

38:30
at the onset to the relationship knowing

38:32
bad events will happen if and when they

38:35
do we don't change course I rebalance

38:38
every quarter systematically without

38:40
thought without emotion I do not try to

38:42
Market time or speculate because that's

38:43
just gambling yep every quarter I go in

38:46
I rebalance portfolios back to the

38:47
Target allocation guess what I'm going

38:48
to rebalance in in uh 10 days CL client

38:52
stock allocations will be below what

38:54
their targets are because stock markets

38:55
are down that means I'm going to sell

38:56
out a bond fund buy stock funds that

38:59
forces me to to buy low sell High you

39:01
know this automatic

39:02
rebalancing um so I don't change any

39:05
part of the process and I don't go out

39:07
of my way to write newsletters and get

39:09
in front of people with events like this

39:11
good and I have mixed feelings about

39:13
that now I realize some clients do reach

39:15
out to me and I sort of feel like I

39:17
should have got ahead of them but I

39:20
realize people will get nervous when

39:21
stock markets drop 3% in a day and and

39:24
when they when they see on the front

39:25
page of the news tank rolling into you

39:27
know the heart of

39:28
Ukraine but again we knew stuff like

39:31
this would happen and I sort of feel

39:33
like by me proactively going out of my

39:35
way to send a special message to my

39:37
clients they may interpret that as wow

39:40
if Andy feels like this is worth talking

39:41
about this must be bad so it you know

39:45
I'm conflicted with what to do about

39:46
this so far other than the few clients

39:48
that have reached out to me I have not

39:49
proactively sent a newsletter or uh an

39:52
email or proactively called

39:54
clients um now if markets were to drop

39:57
you know 10% in a day or something maybe

39:58
I then I probably should but the

40:01
correction the dip the reversal we're in

40:03
now this was part for the course and and

40:05
I try to explain to folks do not be

40:07
surprised if and when stuff like this

40:08
happens it's happening I don't want to

40:10
draw special attention to it for for

40:13
again getting people uh feared when I

40:15
don't think this is undue reason for

40:17
concern so that's my thoughts on that um

40:20
and I did previously during Co I did

40:22
send something out and even like six

40:24
months ago I think I sent something out

40:27
just recapping what my thought process

40:29
is what I will be doing during times of

40:31
distress and re reiterating what

40:34
people's plans are again maximizing

40:36
lifetime income where feasible the

40:38
rebalancing SE um uh sequence of of uh

40:42
I'm dra a blank when we do take

40:44
distributions from portfolios of returns

40:46
returns you know I don't just sell Pro

40:50
slices of stuff across the portfolio

40:51
stocks are down I'm selling off the bond

40:53
fund you know not the stock fund so what

40:56
I sent clients a few months ago is just

40:57
to reiterate the process how times of

41:00
distress will be handled how your plan

41:02
already accounts for stuff like this and

41:04
already has uh action steps built into

41:06
it that that will help minimize and

41:08
alleviate to some extent alleviate uh

41:11
you know unwanted surprises in financial

41:12
markets so that's my view have you I'm

41:16
sure you have I just wanted to get you

41:18
on um on the podcast to comment on it

41:20
have you commented on crypto and the

41:22
underlying blockchain Revolution that's

41:24
kind of happening um would love to hear

41:27
that from someone like you who's been

41:28
around the block a little

41:31
bit

41:33
um

41:36
yes the

41:38
blockchain I think definitely has has

41:41
potential to be

41:43
revolutionary lots of potential use

41:45
cases for how the blockchain can can uh

41:48
rewrite how things are done how things

41:50
are accounted for how things are

41:52
approved I do not see blockchain going

41:54
away um and it will only gain in in

41:57
importance crypto specifically what

41:59
people call

42:02
cryptocurrencies man I struggle I I

42:05
understand them well enough I

42:07
think I wouldn't be

42:10
surprised if crypto assets I won't name

42:14
specific names but crypto assets yeah

42:16
continue their long-term meteoric rise

42:20
and people make boatloads of money off

42:22
them I I'd also put as much chance on

42:25
crypto assets completely collapsing down

42:27
to zero close to it whether it's because

42:28
governments flat out shut them out or

42:31
people realize it really is the epitome

42:35
of the um the what is it the greater

42:37
sucker uh the greater fool Theory the

42:40
tulip bulb theory is what I call it yeah

42:43
it be there's truly zero intrinsic value

42:47
to crypto assets the value is is 100%

42:52
based on simple auction market pricing

42:55
whatever someone willing to pay for it

42:56
that's what it's worth now again because

43:00
of that reason they can go up forever

43:02
right I'm not I'm not disputing it can't

43:04
but it can also collapse there's

43:06
literally zero value you know with

43:08
stocks stocks are sort of out there a

43:10
little esoteric but in theory you own

43:12
share of a company and if that company

43:13
were to liquidate you the shareholder

43:15
gets paid out whatever's left so there

43:17
is some intrinsic value right true um

43:19
bonds you know things that have stated

43:21
cash flows their their value is the cash

43:23
flows they pay even precious metals how

43:26
do you value gold I mean at a minimum it

43:28
has some use use value in making

43:30
semiconductors and chips and jewelry so

43:33
like that has value crypto has zero

43:35
intrinsic value so for that reason I I

43:38
view I don't actively invest clients in

43:41
crypto if they ask me about it my view

43:43
is if you want to put a small portion of

43:45
your net worth in it something you're

43:46
comfortable completely go potentially

43:48
going to zero 100% fine right view it as

43:51
a lottery ticket maybe you quadruple

43:53
quintuple Tuple your money sure maybe it

43:56
goes to zero close to it I would not be

43:58
surprised either way I'll leave it there

44:00
that's and one other rant on crypto

44:02
actually sorry go ahead I want to hear

44:04
it it's fascinating the the the word

44:07
currency cryptocurrency is such a

44:09
misnomer and this is why I think crypto

44:11
as a medium of exchange will never fully

44:14
catch on because it's not a currency

44:16
it's an asset class every single time

44:20
you buy something with crypto what

44:21
you're technically doing is selling a

44:23
piece of that crypto that sale will have

44:25
tax implications it's it's no different

44:27
than you using a stock to buy something

44:30
you know giving a share of stock to

44:31
someone in exchange for a good or

44:33
service that's a taxable

44:35
transaction now when you frame it that

44:38
way which is the accurate way to frame

44:40
it I you know the tax implications alone

44:44
make it so unwieldy and burdensome for

44:45
crypto to ever be a widely used medium

44:48
of exchange and the IRS is cracking down

44:51
and rightfully so now the IRS is far

44:53
behind sure in figuring out ways to

44:55
properly think about and regulate crypto

44:57
I fully agree with that but that doesn't

44:59
mean crypto should continue this wild

45:01
westree reain of like anything goes um

45:04
and and the tax accounting for crypto

45:06
transactions is nothing short of a

45:07
nightmare because there aren't

45:08
standardized 1099s like there are for

45:10
brokerage accounts and stuff exactly so

45:13
that that that concerns me um if and

45:16
when the IRS continues to clamp down a

45:18
lot of people will get a lot of unwanted

45:20
Surprises with what they thought was

45:22
their currency it's not they're

45:23
exchanging a taxable asset for something

45:25
else and there's tax implications so

45:29
bringing it back to your question

45:30
blockchain I see tremendous value and in

45:32
going great places

45:34
crypto it's a completely intangible um

45:38
cloud in the sky thing that's sure it

45:40
may continue to go up but it as a as a

45:43
medium of exchange I I can't see

45:45
practically how how that'll ever fully

45:47
take over oneof things here and there

45:48
sure but like as a replacement for

45:49
dollars no way no way great Insight

45:52
phenomenal Insight was wondering with

45:54
the co with Co which was horrific it's

45:57
funny how it's just out of the news now

45:59
at the time of this taping we're not

46:00
even talking about anymore but people

46:01
are still dying um has it pushed your

46:05
clients to to proactively ask more about

46:08
Legacy planning have you seen that or

46:11
have people just kind of

46:12
compartmentalized it and said oh that

46:14
was a bad time I don't want to talk

46:15
about

46:16
it um not not wholesale no I mean there

46:21
were a couple clients who did say

46:23
something along the lines of covid made

46:24
me much more aware of my own there you

46:26
go

46:27
mortality and so charitable giving and

46:30
Legacy plans became a little more

46:31
important for those folks but as a whole

46:33
no I wouldn't say it was like a a

46:34
cultural shift in in the way people

46:36
think about what they want their

46:37
advisors to address one of the things we

46:40
do share is that um I used to wear

46:41
t-shirt around the house when my two

46:43
daughters were in dance classes and it

46:45
said I'm not the dancer I'm the

46:47
financier um and it's and you have you

46:50
have daughters that are in the dance

46:51
world so I kind of I smiled at that um

46:54
I'm assuming they're young correct

46:56
yep they are 12 and 14 yeah yeah mine

46:58
mine are 25 and 23 and they just you

47:02
know they've moved on from from good old

47:04
dad um and you you know a couple other

47:06
things I think people would find

47:07
interesting about Andy which you know if

47:09
you you haven't enjoyed this you you

47:11
need to check yourself here because he

47:13
has been fantastic he's um he's a road

47:15
cyclist he's that guy on the road that's

47:17
going like 30 miles an hour on a bike

47:19
you're like how does anybody do that you

47:20
know and he also he's also a runner um

47:24
but here's the here's the part that

47:26
makes me mad at you because if my wife

47:28
finds this out she's going to really be

47:29
mad is that you can remodel kitchens and

47:32
bathrooms in addition to being one of

47:34
the best Minds in the financials you do

47:37
that as well where did that come from

47:39
you just are you just one of those guys

47:40
that tries to figure that stuff out as

47:42
you're Mak making custom furniture as

47:44
well uh yeah that's part of it so I have

47:48
to attribute the the uh natural

47:51
abilities and and Fascination to my

47:53
father so when we were growing up he

47:56
single-handedly remodeled our house due

47:58
to lack of time and money it took him I

48:00
think 14

48:01
years so so my whole childhood was

48:05
around various forms of Demolition and

48:07
Construction in our house and I I

48:09
remember one Christmas he was in the

48:12
process of redoing a living room walls

48:14
were gutted there's no insulation no

48:16
sheetrock and it was cold we live in New

48:18
Jersey and

48:20
uh you know we celebrated Christmas with

48:22
a small little Christmas tree on the

48:24
table saw which was in the living room

48:25
at the time with no walls we all had

48:28
jackets on because it was that cold in

48:30
the house and that that was a large part

48:32
of my childhood so I was always helping

48:34
build fix get a tool for him and uh I

48:38
don't know when I was in college I just

48:39
sort of had this desire to to make

48:41
things with my hands and started

48:42
watching a lot of TV shows about

48:44
woodworking Home Improvements when I got

48:46
out of school moved into my own house

48:48
rental house with my wife then

48:49
girlfriend just I I built a bird house

48:52
you know in the kitchen of our apartment

48:54
at the time and just slowly progress to

48:56
do the firstep that's the first step the

48:58
bir the bird so I need to commission the

49:02
Andy Panko uh um table or coffee table I

49:07
need to get that from you if you want to

49:09
see some of my stuff go to panko

49:11
Woodworks docomo woodwork. comom you

49:14
know what's funny I'm gonna put that on

49:15
your site so pankow woodwork. comom now

49:19
it's not a business it's it's really

49:20
just me kind of having a place to show

49:23
some of my projects and things I've done

49:26
anyway well that's that's Fant one last

49:27
question just because I call it Tenon

49:29
but it's ten Tenon Financial t n o n

49:32
Financial what's that mean woodworking

49:35
term oh interesting story so do I'll

49:39
first give you the the sappy typical I

49:41
want the sappy one first I'm from the

49:43
south yeah sappy one typical cheesy one

49:47
is I'm passionate about woodworking that

49:49
that's a fact and so I wanted a name for

49:51
my business that ties into me and what

49:54
I'm passionate about M also tenin is a

49:57
type of woodworking joint a mortise and

49:59
Tenon okay ten a tenin is a square peg

50:01
that goes into a square hole simple but

50:04
super sturdy so if you wanted the the

50:06
the fuzzy you know nice it's

50:09
that tenin is indicative of a good plan

50:13
doesn't need to be complicated or or

50:16
carried away to be effective the mortise

50:19
andant joint is one of the simple yet

50:20
strongest woodworking joints there is so

50:22
that's how I Envision my financial

50:23
planning doesn't need to be difficult to

50:24
be good

50:26
that's a sappy story I love that get

50:28
give the uh give Hardline story what's

50:31
the Hardline story on that the the

50:34
biggest limiting factor in trying to

50:35
come up with a name for my business was

50:37
website domain

50:39
availability exactly I I wanted

50:41
something short and sweet I didn't want

50:43
like blah blah blah blah blah

50:44
financial.com that you know would take a

50:46
half hour to type um I didn't want my

50:48
name in the company I didn't want

50:50
something- FAA or- FP I wanted just like

50:54
something something to words and for the

50:57
life of me I I spent weeks and had AA

51:00
over coming up with every single word I

51:02
can think of I Like It searching for web

51:04
domain availability I did all the all

51:07
the typical cheesy Stuff things about

51:08
lighthouses and Compasses and um God you

51:11
know blueprints like all the corny

51:12
cheesy stuff that is so endemic in uh

51:15
financial advisor but I like it tenant

51:17
and of the of the percentage of clients

51:19
that you've talked to how many

51:21
understood what that meant nobody cares

51:24
I care well what what I'm saying is they

51:26
hire me because they know Andy from

51:28
Facebook or YouTube they they do not

51:29
give a squat about my company name so

51:31
you don't have any professional

51:32
Woodworkers that go you know what that

51:34
name right there sold me oh man funny

51:37
story so I forgot to mention this in my

51:39
early stages of Business Development so

51:41
March 209 uh

51:43
2020 I took a gamble on Business

51:46
Development and there's a there's a

51:47
national woodworking Expo that tours the

51:50
country and they fill up like huge Expo

51:52
halls and please tell me you had a boo

51:53
please tell me you had a booth I bought

51:55
a table I bought a table love it so I

51:58
went to this this Expo every year for

52:00
the last 15 years as as an attendee and

52:02
it's all like tool manufacturers W

52:04
guilds and whatever and I thought 10 in

52:08
financial I thought a few things

52:11
thousands of potentially my target

52:13
market you know Woodworkers are

52:14
typically older 50 plus sure so right

52:16
there you know that's that's one good

52:18
sign they'll see my sign tenant

52:21
Financial everyone in that room is going

52:22
to know what a tenant is right I I'd

52:25
hope it would spark some like oh yeah I

52:27
have a natural Affinity with this guy

52:28
because of woodworking as opposed to

52:30
someone from you know major wirehouse

52:32
whatever and so for 3,000 bucks I bought

52:35
a table I bought a bunch of signage um I

52:38
made up uh custom business card holders

52:41
you know my own woodwork out of w

52:44
display I had these on display I had

52:46
custom mechanical pencils Woodworkers

52:48
love mechanical pencils because the

52:49
points are always sharp sure and you

52:51
know easy to refill so I made up

52:53
mechanical pencils with tendon Financial

52:55
on

52:55
it absolute bust over the course of the

52:59
weekend I gave out maybe three business

53:01
cards I gave away probably 300 pencils

53:03
just just to get rid of them um I I I I

53:07
had a conversation with five people

53:09
maybe while I was there zero followup

53:12
afterward so I knew it was risky I I

53:16
knew the chances of success were

53:17
probably small but I was like this is

53:18
gonna be a tremendous flop or a stroke

53:20
of Genius it was a tremendous flop but

53:23
um I'm glad I did it it was experience

53:25
and it helped me realize I'm not that

53:27
guy I wasn't outworking the room I was

53:29
standing in front of my booth I had a

53:31
computer monitor set up with e money

53:32
where I can show people like yeah this

53:34
is cool stuff I can do but I wasn't out

53:36
there like patting backs and you know

53:38
trying to drum up business and just

53:39
that's not me so that's pic happened

53:43
yeah pic for me to get online and get

53:45
active socially and find my voice

53:47
virtually and that's what really clicked

53:48
me marketing is an art not a science we

53:50
all know that I mean it's it's hard it's

53:52
hard work but hey um we kind of ran out

53:54
of time but I'm going to to hold you to

53:55
coming back because you know I'm going

53:57
to make you tell a joke so I'm going to

53:59
give you preparation up front you know

54:00
we'll bring you back on the on the show

54:02
and and have you dig in and tell us

54:04
what's new in your world because I I

54:06
have this strange feeling here that

54:08
we're catching you really early and um

54:11
and real happy to do that because I

54:13
think your your uh your future is really

54:15
really bright because I think you're

54:17
going to do some things that you haven't

54:18
even thought of yet from um marketing

54:21
and expansion of the idea and the

54:23
strategy which is needed out here so um

54:26
we really appreciate you being on the

54:28
program and I appreciate every single

54:30
one of you out there listening on the

54:31
podcast platforms and on watching us on

54:34
the YouTube channel and I'll see you

54:35
next time on fun with

54:43
annuities