100 Michael Finke: Retirees Should Calculate to Not Be a Loser

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can find out the brutal

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facts about annuities with no sales

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pitches or high pressure nonsense just

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the brutal and factual annuity truth

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which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

0:41
host stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent i want to welcome everyone

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on the podcast platforms all of those

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things that i can't remember but there's

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a bunch of them and also the fun with

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annuities youtube channel so you can see

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the dashingly good looks of my guest

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and

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what color baseball cap i have on which

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is always good um i want to welcome back

1:00
a person that i have so much respect for

1:03
and if there's two people on the planet

1:05
that like culax more than

1:07
than me and this person i want to meet

1:09
them in fact he has a cue like hat

1:11
typically that he wears uh he wore it on

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the last podcast but i want to welcome

1:15
back to fun with annuities michael finka

1:17
michael

1:19
great to be back on stan good to see you

1:21
again

1:22
it's good to see you as well you know i

1:24
follow you i stalk you and everything

1:26
that you write out there so there's been

1:28
a couple of articles that have popped

1:31
up and i'm going man i got to get him

1:33
back on and talk about that and the

1:34
first one and i'm just by the way you

1:36
can go to my site at theannuityman.com

1:38
and and read about how wonderful michael

1:40
is and all the accomplishments it's

1:41
ridiculous he's done so much

1:44
um

1:45
you know at his funeral whoever gets up

1:47
to talk and talk about what he's done

1:50
it's going to be a long one

1:52
because he is really accomplished and

1:55
we're so happy to have him on michael

1:56
you did an article for think advisor

1:58
magazine and the title was why claiming

2:02
social security at 64 or 67

2:05
could be a big mistake now social

2:08
security should be handled and advised

2:10
by experts like you and i it drives me

2:12
crazy when the indexed annuity sales

2:14
people have a social security seminar

2:17
and then oh by the way you need an index

2:18
annuity i'm so happy for you to be on

2:21
and and hammer home factually why this

2:24
could be a mistake so i throw the ball

2:26
to you michael finka

2:28
well first of all uh social security is

2:31
an annuity anybody who says that they

2:34
hate annuities should also say that they

2:36
hate social security and pensions

2:38
because

2:39
they're both a form of annuity and it

2:42
just so happens that social security is

2:44
provided by the federal government to

2:46
everybody it's not priced based on

2:49
market prices which is uh important to

2:52
note and i also in my article break down

2:55
how to value the income you get from the

2:58
annuity and i think that's very

2:59
important because it's the same way

3:02
we value a private annuity so when you

3:04
buy a lifetime annuity from an insurance

3:06
company

3:07
there's a way to price it there's

3:09
there's there are actuaries at the

3:11
company who look at mortality tables and

3:13
they look at the rates of return they

3:15
can get from bond investments they have

3:17
to be funded with the safe investments

3:19
if they're going to guarantee the income

3:21
and you can use the same

3:22
way to value the income that you're

3:25
receiving from social security when you

3:28
delay by a year so essentially what

3:31
you're doing when you delay receiving

3:33
social security is you are buying more

3:37
of a government-provided

3:39
inflation-protected annuity

3:42
and inflation-protected annuities take

3:44
away two sources of risk they take away

3:46
longevity risk which a traditional

3:47
annuity does and also reduces inflation

3:51
risk now

3:52
this is i think very important for

3:54
retirees to provide a foundation of

3:57
inflation-protected income

3:59
and when you give up a year this and the

4:01
example i gave in the article is let's

4:03
say that you were born in 1960 uh you're

4:06
62 years old in 2022 and you're trying

4:09
to decide whether to delay social

4:11
security to age 63 you may give up 20

4:14
000 of income

4:15
during your 62nd year

4:18
but

4:18
starting at your 63rd year you now get 5

4:23
more thousand dollars more in lifetime

4:26
income now that doesn't sound like a

4:28
whole lot you give up twenty thousand

4:29
dollars you get a thousand dollars more

4:31
every year for the rest of your life but

4:33
there's a couple things to consider

4:35
first of all how long are you gonna live

4:36
if you're a healthy woman for example on

4:38
average you're gonna live uh to eight

4:41
you have a 50 50 chance of living to age

4:43
90

4:44
and that means you're going to be

4:45
getting those thousand dollar payments

4:47
for the next 27 years

4:50
and they're also inflation protected so

4:51
they're more valuable than just getting

4:53
a thousand an extra thousand dollars a

4:55
year you're getting you know the

4:56
inflation adjustment was was seven

4:59
percent this year so you might get a

5:00
thousand and seventy dollars this next

5:03
year uh so it continues to go up every

5:05
year in retirement so it's very valuable

5:08
and often underappreciated by retirees

5:11
uh and you know you and i see so much

5:13
garbage when it comes to

5:15
deciding whether or not to delay

5:17
claiming social security there is this

5:19
sort of anti-government bent you know

5:22
that right i'm gonna take my money right

5:24
now you know and the reality is that if

5:28
you're a taxpayer you want everybody to

5:30
take their money right now because that

5:31
you're a loser you you will get less

5:34
over the course of your lifetime it's

5:36
essentially as if you're giving up

5:38
lifetime wealth

5:39
um is that a figurative loser or a

5:42
literal loser michael

5:44
you well it is a literal loser so in the

5:46
sense that

5:48
um

5:48
both uh in the sense that you lose

5:51
wealth and and this is absolutely you

5:53
know you can plot out the mathematics of

5:55
it and it's not it's not rocket science

5:57
that

5:58
um you know over the course of your

6:00
expected lifetime you will have less

6:03
money to work with and even if your goal

6:07
is to give your money to your kids

6:09
then it's worth giving up one year of

6:11
income in order to get a higher income

6:14
for the rest of your life on average now

6:17
a big assumption here is

6:19
that you you have to be in okay health

6:21
if you're not in good health you know if

6:23
you're if you have been diagnosed with

6:25
cancer or if you have heart disease or

6:28
you know whatever whatever reason you

6:29
don't expect to live as long as the

6:31
average american then it can make sense

6:33
to claim early unless you have a spouse

6:36
who can then continue to receive your

6:39
benefit so if you're in bad health

6:41
absolutely if you have a high income

6:44
especially if you're a higher earner

6:45
than your spouse

6:47
delay claiming as long as you can to age

6:49
70 and maybe your lifetime is not going

6:52
to be as long as the average american

6:54
but that payment is going to support

6:56
your surviving spouse for the rest of

6:58
their life uh so i i think it's it's you

7:01
know stan what are some of the things

7:02
that you've heard from people who don't

7:05
want to delay claiming social security

7:07
well i think we we all know that there

7:09
are people that have to take it early

7:11
because they don't have any other source

7:13
of income and under that assumption then

7:15
yeah take it but if you are weighing

7:18
should i take it now

7:19
or if some

7:21
non-qualified advisor agent is trying to

7:25
combine the decision with a an indexed

7:27
annuity sale or something like that what

7:29
i would tell you to do is is certainly

7:31
reach out to a cpa tax lawyer or listen

7:34
to someone like michael finka

7:36
we also have a person on occasionally

7:37
you name jeff miller who has a site

7:39
called

7:40
socialsecuritychoices.com ex university

7:43
of delaware professor

7:44
smart people to weigh in i think that

7:47
there's just so much misinformation on

7:49
social security which is very

7:51
interesting because

7:52
it is the best inflation annuity on the

7:54
planet and you would think that

7:56
the government i know i'm hoping here

8:00
would do a better job because of the the

8:02
misinformation that's out there that's

8:04
the reason i wanted to have you on

8:05
because you know when you started the

8:07
first sentence of your of your article

8:09
about you know the bonus retirees get

8:11
from waiting to claim social security

8:13
income benefits increases in two steps

8:15
i'm guaranteeing you that 98 of the

8:18
people don't know what those two steps

8:20
are so tell them those two steps

8:22
yeah so that was the main point of the

8:23
article which of course we haven't

8:24
gotten to yet because i i could talk

8:27
forever about this topic and we're going

8:28
to we're going to talk a long time today

8:31
and by the way stan the the government

8:33
actually listened so a lot of people

8:35
have been saying for a while that the

8:37
information on delayed claiming was not

8:40
in the best interest of good of citizens

8:42
and so they've actually made some

8:44
important changes to their website i

8:46
think they've done they deserve some

8:47
credit they've done a really good job of

8:49
improving it

8:51
now that said the formula for

8:54
figuring out how much more income you

8:56
get every year from delayed claiming

8:58
that formula was put together in the

9:00
early 1980s and uh the formula was was

9:04
meant to make it what's known as

9:06
actuarially fair so if it's actuarially

9:08
fair that's a hard thing to say then the

9:11
present value of what you give up by

9:14
waiting a year should be equal to the

9:17
present value of what you can expect to

9:19
get in increased benefit payments so of

9:22
course

9:23
if you you know increase the income of

9:25
someone from 62 to 63 at age 63 the

9:28
government expects you to get a lot more

9:30
payments over the course of your

9:31
lifetime so the jump up in the bonus

9:34
that you get for delayed claiming is

9:36
only five percent per year um but it

9:38
goes up to six and two-thirds percent

9:41
once you hit age 64. so after your 64th

9:44
birthday all of a sudden every month

9:46
that you delay you get that six and

9:48
two-thirds percent per year increase and

9:51
then after age 67 if for someone who was

9:53
born in 1960 and has full retirement age

9:56
of 67 in 2022

9:58
for them it goes up by 8

10:01
every year between 67 and 68 and if you

10:05
you know those rules were created back

10:07
in the early 1980s with a different

10:09
mortality table that exists in the

10:11
united states right right now which

10:13
means that people are now living longer

10:15
than they did in the early 1980s and

10:17
especially higher income folks so if you

10:20
are a healthy higher income american

10:23
you receive a

10:25
significant benefit in the present value

10:28
of those increased income payments that

10:30
you get from delaying social security uh

10:33
but the the increase the bonus that you

10:36
get is highest at each one of those

10:38
steps where that so that benefit of

10:40
claiming goes up by six and two-thirds

10:42
percent after age 64. and by 8 after age

10:46
67 and you know there is this belief

10:49
that you should at least wait till

10:51
you'll your full retirement age for good

10:53
reason to age 67 because uh if you don't

10:56
then you get taxed on your earnings um

10:59
you know if you're making money outside

11:00
of social security it's a terrible deal

11:02
to take it before a full retirement age

11:04
but if you wait an additional year that

11:08
bonus that you get from waiting from 67

11:10
to 68 is actually the most generous

11:13
bonus from delayed claiming in fact if

11:16
you look for example for an average man

11:18
the bonus from get it from winning

11:19
between 69 and 70 is actually not that

11:22
big

11:22
these bonuses by the way are larger for

11:25
women and again if you have a couple

11:27
where the male is the higher earning

11:29
spouse then that surviving spouse can

11:32
also expect to get that higher income

11:34
payment so don't just base it on whether

11:37
it's a man or a woman if you're a single

11:39
woman you're gonna get a big bonus

11:41
especially if you're healthy from

11:42
delayed claiming

11:44
now that bonus is positive stan and if

11:47
you buy an annuity

11:49
you don't necessarily expect the present

11:52
value to be

11:54
equal to the amount of income payments

11:56
that you're going to get in the future

11:58
because the insurance company has to

11:59
make a little bit of profit to be able

12:01
to provide that guarantee of a lifetime

12:03
income where the government is actually

12:05
paying you to buy an annuity if you

12:08
delay claiming social security so it is

12:10
kind of the opposite of buying a private

12:12
annuity in the sense that the government

12:14
is giving you something for nothing and

12:16
to not take that something for nothing

12:18
if you're a healthy retiree now one of

12:20
the

12:21
one of the

12:22
forms of resistance that i hear is well

12:25
social security is going to go bankrupt

12:27
now let's take a moment and talk about

12:30
what that means it means that sometime a

12:33
little over 10 years from now

12:35
social security is going to have to cut

12:38
benefits if they make no changes in the

12:42
social security system

12:43
what politician is going to get

12:46
reelected if they simply allow social

12:48
security to be cut by 20 percent none i

12:52
mean there's there's zero political

12:54
chance that that's going to happen so

12:56
what is going to happen well most people

12:57
agree that it's probably going to be

12:59
some combination of increases in payroll

13:02
taxes so those who are working are gonna

13:04
have to pay a little bit more those who

13:06
have higher incomes are going to start

13:07
paying more on for social security there

13:10
is an income limit on how much people

13:12
pay for social security that's probably

13:14
going to get increased

13:16
i don't see any way around it at this

13:17
point and probably some of those

13:19
inflation adjustments that people get

13:20
every year are probably going to be uh

13:23
reduced but even if the worst case

13:26
scenario happens

13:28
it still makes economic sense to delay

13:30
claiming social security right now

13:33
given the

13:34
given how expensive safe

13:36
inflation-protected income from the

13:38
government is

13:39
and given that the fact that a lot of

13:41
higher income americans are living

13:43
longer than they ever have

13:45
yeah i found that last statement that

13:47
you said and it was kind of at the end

13:48
of your article talking about

13:50
you know just people that make more

13:52
money and they make people that are rich

13:54
and i know a lot of my listeners

13:58
are what's considered categoric

14:00
categorically rich but they don't think

14:02
they're rich i always tell people oh by

14:04
the way you're the evil rich and like no

14:05
there's no white yeah you are

14:07
um

14:08
is there a

14:10
is there like a income level or asset

14:12
level that

14:13
that you look at from the standpoint of

14:15
people living longer

14:17
et cetera i mean well i mean if you if

14:19
you look at the data you see that those

14:21
who are in the top 10 percentile of

14:23
income

14:24
social security earnings um and and what

14:27
is the top 10 percentile well probably

14:29
people who on average make above 80 or

14:31
90 thousand dollars a year but that

14:33
doesn't sound rich but it's it's the

14:35
reality and

14:37
those are the people who have gained the

14:39
most in terms of longevity over the last

14:41
couple of decades as much as five years

14:43
for men now men have actually made the

14:45
biggest gains in longevity because

14:48
they're not doing as many stupid things

14:51
as they did back in the 1960s and 1970s

14:53
they're not smoking as much they're

14:55
exercising more you know they're

14:57
actually taking care of themselves which

14:58
means that they've got more years in

14:59
retirement

15:01
which means that that benefit from

15:02
delayed claiming is going to be greater

15:04
for them

15:06
i mean that i find that interesting

15:07
because

15:08
that also leads into if if they happen

15:11
to means test

15:13
social security in the in the future

15:16
how are they going to do that no there's

15:17
arguments that they already do that but

15:19
i'm talking about

15:20
you know really kind of wiping out some

15:22
people at the higher level that don't

15:23
really need the income even though

15:25
they've paid in do you have any insight

15:27
into that

15:29
because that's i hear that a lot from

15:31
from people that are my clients or

15:33
people that call me that are that are

15:35
thinking about becoming clients

15:36
they're worried about that they're

15:38
worried about being cut out even though

15:39
they've scrimped and saved and and now

15:41
they're at these asset levels that the

15:43
somebody in the government might in the

15:45
future deem them rich enough to be means

15:48
tested out

15:50
yeah i mean that's a good question i

15:52
think that we're probably going to see

15:53
increasing means testing among retirees

15:57
um you know the government has some

15:58
revenue issues that's going to have to

16:00
get worked out in the future somehow

16:02
um you know that

16:04
i don't see it happening uh i don't see

16:07
taxes going up for social security

16:09
recipients we've already seen some

16:11
red or increase in costs for medicare

16:14
recipients who have higher incomes it's

16:15
also a good argument to

16:17
pay close attention to how much taxable

16:20
income you're generating in retirement

16:22
in other words paying attention to

16:24
taking advantage of roth conversions

16:26
when you can and that's actually another

16:27
benefit of delaying social security is

16:29
that you can start pulling money out of

16:31
your qualified retirement accounts like

16:33
your your iras uh you know what were

16:36
originally your 401k is you can bridge

16:39
your spending by pulling money out of

16:42
that account where you're forced to

16:43
after required minimum distribution

16:45
start kicking in you're forced to take

16:47
money out of that account you have to

16:49
pay income taxes on it and it means

16:51
testing becomes a bigger issue then

16:53
you're kind of locked in uh and if you

16:55
look at the way those rmd rules work you

16:58
know the amount of money that you're

16:59
pulling out actually you could keep

17:01
pushing yourself into a higher income

17:03
tax bracket to the point where by the

17:05
time you reach your late 80s you're

17:08
actually in a higher bracket than you

17:09
were at age 72

17:11
that's a source of risk and one way to

17:13
reduce that source of risk is is by

17:15
changing the account allocation that you

17:18
have to reduce tax risk so you can if

17:21
you've got money in a roth account you

17:22
can pull money out no income taxes um

17:25
you can have greater control over the

17:27
amount of taxable income you generate

17:29
and and this is probably a good point to

17:31
also or a good time to also point out

17:33
that if you buy a

17:35
non-qualified annuity in other words if

17:37
you have money sitting in a taxable

17:39
account so you've got money sitting in a

17:41
checking account or a money market

17:43
account or even in an investment account

17:45
and you buy a lifetime income with

17:47
taxable dollars only a portion of that

17:50
income is actually subject to income

17:53
taxation because of what's known as an

17:55
exclusion ratio so if you buy one it may

17:58
be that only a quarter of it is actually

18:00
especially in a low interest rate

18:01
environment a smaller percentage of your

18:04
payment is subject to taxation because

18:06
that's the percentage that's considered

18:08
to be interest um and that's that can

18:10
actually be a very you know it's a tax

18:12
advantage a lot of people don't really

18:13
talk about including the deferral

18:15
benefit that you get from it until you

18:17
turn the income on but it's a way of

18:19
controlling taxes and retirement as well

18:22
and and stan speak exclusionary issue

18:24
means you're getting

18:26
any type of lifetime income or income

18:27
from an annuity is a combination of

18:29
return or principal plus interest in a

18:30
non-ira account

18:32
you're not going to pay taxes on the

18:33
principal you're going to pay taxes on

18:35
the interest which ie means exclusion

18:37
ratio that's what michael was talking

18:39
about i think one of the things that

18:41
jumped out at me and i did not know this

18:42
and maybe i should was that the social

18:45
social security has its own mortality

18:47
tables

18:48
um that are probably different and

18:50
unique from life insurance is that true

18:53
and and explain why that

18:55
why that's important

18:57
it's important because a lot of these

18:59
formulas like the benefit that you

19:01
receive from delayed claiming are

19:02
partially dependent on what social

19:05
security estimates is a fair amount of

19:07
extra income to give you if you delay

19:09
claiming and the social security average

19:11
i mean that's everybody

19:13
so you know that's

19:15
you've seen your fellow americans the

19:17
the average american is perhaps

19:20
different than

19:22
you i don't want to

19:24
it's it's if you were the kind of person

19:26
who who makes sure that they exercise a

19:29
certain number of times per week who

19:30
goes to whole foods you know who who

19:32
takes care of themselves physically

19:34
you're in a different what's known as a

19:36
mortality pool and that mortality pool

19:39
on average is going to live longer than

19:41
the average american and by quite a big

19:43
difference so when an insurance company

19:45
is pricing an annuity they're using the

19:47
pool of people who actually buy

19:48
annuities who tend to live longer than

19:50
the average american got it so any sort

19:53
of any time you can join a mortality

19:56
pool and the same thing exists with

19:58
pension stand so if you work for an

20:00
employer and the pension income is based

20:04
on all employees

20:06
and you just happen to be healthier than

20:08
your average worker at that company then

20:11
you actually receive more expected value

20:14
from the pension than someone who is a

20:16
lower income

20:18
less healthy worker who is going to not

20:21
live as long in retirement it's actually

20:22
kind of a regressive policy a pension um

20:25
but you know pay attention to the

20:28
mortality pool that you're part of

20:29
because sometimes you can get an extra

20:30
bonus that's very very good and um so

20:34
what you're

20:35
to sum that one up not only social

20:37
security the best inflation annuity on

20:40
the planet it also has the most

20:41
favorable actuarial tables

20:44
for most most listeners to a podcast

20:47
like this which oh by the way michael is

20:49
one of the fastest growing financial

20:50
podcasts in the country because we have

20:53
people like you on it and i

20:55
i really want to thank you for that i

20:57
want you to kind of get in the weeds a

20:58
little bit because um part of the

21:00
article i found fascinating when you

21:02
were talking about

21:03
the the actual fair value

21:06
of delayed claiming and you went into

21:08
tips and you went into all kinds of

21:10
things you gave a pretty good example of

21:12
a 62 year old

21:14
who delays claiming i think you did that

21:16
earlier in the podcast but can you go

21:18
into the weeds of how they

21:20
um the higher fewer higher income

21:23
payments in the future are discounted

21:25
all that

21:26
all that smart guy stuff i need you to

21:28
do that and and explain it to the

21:30
listeners

21:31
so everybody has who is part of a

21:34
mortality pool i mean the way that

21:37
actuaries think about

21:39
human beings

21:40
um is that you know you can look at a

21:43
table and on average i can tell you that

21:46
there's a 50 chance that if you're a

21:49
healthy male and you're age 62 there's a

21:51
50 chance you're going to live to the

21:53
age of 88

21:54
and i know that around that age

21:58
um there is a distribution of deaths and

22:01
the longer you live the less likely it

22:04
is that you're going to make it to your

22:05
next birthday so beyond age 88 for a

22:08
male you know the probability of

22:09
surviving to age 89 goes down

22:11
probability of surviving to age 90 is a

22:13
little bit lower than that um so we can

22:16
actually look at one of these mortality

22:17
tables to estimate how many expected

22:20
income payments the company or the

22:22
government will have to pay you in the

22:25
future now you can flip that around and

22:27
if you're an individual you can say all

22:29
right you know what

22:31
how much on average am i going to

22:33
receive when i buy an annuity or delay

22:36
social security how much on average am i

22:39
going to receive over the course of my

22:40
lifetime and to do that all you have to

22:42
do is take the present value of that

22:45
payment say the payment is going to

22:47
occur at the age of 75. you multiply

22:50
that by the probability that you're

22:52
going to be alive to receive that

22:54
payment and that is the present value of

22:57
that payment to you today so i spent a

22:59
lot of my days you know i know you know

23:01
david blanchard he is the whiz when it

23:04
comes to this stuff so he and i will

23:06
we'll spend a lot of time looking at

23:07
spreadsheets and this this paper came

23:09
because we wrote a paper on social

23:10
security claiming and it was something a

23:12
little idiosyncrat idiosyncrasy that i

23:15
noticed about these steps in retirement

23:17
but what we were doing is constantly

23:19
trying to price out annuities by looking

23:22
at mortality tables looking at the

23:23
present value the other element that you

23:26
have to consider is

23:27
what is the value of an income payment

23:30
in 20 years so in other words if i were

23:32
to buy a bond today a corporate bond or

23:35
a treasury bond and it matured in 20

23:38
years how much would i have to pay for

23:41
that today you know in a low interest

23:42
rate environment i have to i'm gonna

23:43
have to pay 800 bucks to get a thousand

23:46
dollars in 20 years um you know in a

23:50
high interest rate environment i may

23:52
only have to pay 400 bucks to get a

23:53
thousand dollars in 20 years but we have

23:55
to deal with the reality of the low

23:57
interest rate environment that we live

23:58
in so we discount at a lower rate and by

24:02
the way anybody who's using stocks to

24:05
compare the present value of future

24:08
guaranteed income is insane thank you

24:12
mike

24:13
thank you for that

24:15
that i see all the time and i'll tell

24:17
you this is the kind of stuff that

24:19
absolutely drives economists crazy i

24:23
mean bring this up with with bob merton

24:25
and he will you know you get him started

24:29
nobel prize winning economist bob

24:31
and you know the the reality is that

24:34
there is no guaranteed return on a stock

24:37
on average stocks have done well

24:40
historically but everybody who retires

24:43
today is stuck with whatever sequence of

24:46
stock returns they get over the next 20

24:49
years and the way to think about stock

24:51
returns is not that they're always

24:54
going to be 10 it's that there is going

24:56
to be a variation in

24:58
future returns and it may be that stock

25:02
returns over the next 20 years are 10

25:04
percent but it's probably you know a one

25:07
in a hundred chance that they're going

25:08
to be exactly 10

25:09
there's a big chance that they're going

25:11
to be something else and nobody knows in

25:13
advance what that something else is and

25:15
stocks are really well at least they

25:17
were really expensive as a couple weeks

25:19
ago they're still pretty expensive and

25:22
in periods where stocks have been this

25:23
expensive the re the 10-year returns are

25:27
actually not too much more than the

25:29
yield that people are getting on bonds

25:31
right now so this idea that no no don't

25:34
delay social security just take that 20

25:36
000 and invest it and you're gonna get

25:38
more money than if you delayed social

25:39
security no there's no guarantee of that

25:43
you know on average there is what's

25:45
known as a equity risk premium that's

25:48
what the economists call it which is

25:49
basically like historically stocks have

25:51
on average had a higher return than

25:53
bonds but you don't know if you're going

25:56
to be lucky or unlucky over the next 20

25:59
years there's always a chance that

26:01
you're not going to get lucky and you

26:03
don't want to base your lifestyle in 20

26:05
years on luck of the markets

26:08
and that's why i always say that

26:09
everybody should have portions of their

26:11
retirement portfolio invested in risky

26:14
assets because on average they do have a

26:16
higher return especially over longer

26:18
holding periods

26:19
but you have to have a base of income to

26:22
fund your

26:24
inflexible expenses something that we

26:26
talked about last time you have to have

26:27
a base of income

26:29
and you that you should not that should

26:31
not be dependent on the performance you

26:34
get in the stock market so insulate a

26:36
portion of your income from stock market

26:38
volatility and not only is that

26:41
mathematically the right thing to do

26:42
it's also psychologically the right

26:44
thing to do i mean i don't want to base

26:46
i don't have to worry about russia

26:48
invading ukraine and the impact that

26:50
that's going to have on my lifestyle

26:52
next month uh that i mean a lot of

26:54
people are facing that who have had such

26:57
great luck over the last decade

26:58
especially if they really have been

27:00
participating in financial markets over

27:02
the last decade uh in preparation for

27:04
retirement they've gotten i think

27:06
accustomed to this idea that the market

27:08
only goes up but you know that as we

27:10
know uh that doesn't always happen

27:13
yeah what drives me crazy

27:15
when i talk to people and they'll say

27:16
well um you know i could do better

27:18
investing my money than this guaranteed

27:20
lifetime income stream like hey player

27:22
that's apples and oranges okay we're

27:24
talking about two separate things you

27:25
can't make that correlation but the

27:27
problem with that is

27:28
in an article a few years back i'm not

27:31
mistaken and i i don't know if i get his

27:33
name right from pronunciation standpoint

27:35
michael kitsis

27:36
yup is is kind of smart guy in the room

27:38
for advisors and he has advisory service

27:40
and he wrote an article just slamming

27:42
culac saying you know this is not a good

27:44
investment you you historically you

27:46
could do better blah blah blah and i'm

27:47
like what are you even talking about i

27:50
mean to make that correlation

27:53
into and to say well you should just

27:54
keep your money in those dogs

27:56
that's

27:57
insanity and and i think it correlates

28:00
to what you just said about

28:03
um

28:03
yeah stocks are great but they not all

28:05
the time and you can't make that

28:08
correlation okay well you know i'm not

28:10
going to buy qlik because i know

28:12
historically i'm going to do better in

28:13
the market and i think that you know the

28:15
michael kitchis is of the world who i

28:17
totally respect very smart guy but you

28:20
know people read his stuff and they

28:22
believe his stuff which is

28:24
scary when he when he talks about that

28:27
yeah i think the free framing that needs

28:29
to happen is that all retirees have a

28:32
portion of their investments in stocks

28:33
and a portion of their investments in

28:35
bonds agree and if you're going to buy a

28:37
culac

28:38
that's part of the bond portion of your

28:40
portfolio essentially what you're saying

28:42
is that instead of investing in bonds

28:44
i'm going to invest in bonds through an

28:46
insurance company and receive a lifetime

28:49
income guarantee that's going to begin

28:51
later on in retirement to ensure that if

28:54
i don't get lucky with the rest of my

28:55
investments i'm going to have an income

28:58
for the rest of my life that begins

29:00
maybe at the age of 80 or 85 and to

29:03
compare

29:04
stuff that should be from the bond

29:06
portion of your portfolio to the overall

29:09
performance of the portfolio isn't the

29:11
right way to do it it's a the insurance

29:13
company is not investing in stocks

29:15
you're investing in bonds anyway hand

29:18
the money over to the insurance company

29:20
they'll probably do a better and cheaper

29:21
job of investing in bonds than you can

29:24
and they will provide you with that

29:25
lifetime income guarantee because they

29:27
will pool that that longevity risk with

29:30
other retirees like you you essentially

29:32
become part of a long life income club

29:36
well said i know we've kind of gotten

29:37
off the social security topic is there

29:39
anything else that you want to add to

29:41
that because i want to pivot a little

29:43
bit to a couple of the things

29:45
but you've you've hammered away pretty

29:47
well at the social security issue from

29:48
the claiming standpoint anything else

29:51
you know this is another point that i

29:52
think

29:53
retirees don't think enough about is

29:55
that you have a balance sheet at

29:57
retirement and that balance sheet is

30:00
what funds your lifestyle and it funds

30:02
your what you pass on after you die

30:06
um and your your pension your social

30:08
security is absolutely part of that

30:11
balance sheet and so when we look at how

30:13
much you can spend in retirement we're

30:16
looking at the value of your social

30:18
security now the value of social

30:20
security is big uh you know for a lot of

30:23
people it can be maybe seven or eight

30:24
hundred thousand dollars today

30:26
especially if you've delayed claiming

30:28
that's part think of that as simply part

30:30
of the resources that you have available

30:33
to fund the lifestyle that you want to

30:35
live someone who has a pension has a pot

30:38
of money which represents the expected

30:41
amount that you're going to receive from

30:42
that pension over time um and that again

30:45
that's in a bond-like asset social

30:47
security is a bond-like asset if you

30:50
have more and annuities or a bond-like

30:52
asset if you have more of those assets

30:54
you can actually take more risk with the

30:56
remainder of your portfolio because you

30:59
have a big chunk of your portfolio tied

31:01
up in safe investments so consider the

31:05
you know those those those claims those

31:08
guaranteed income sources to be part of

31:10
your retirement portfolio that will

31:12
allow you to make smarter decisions

31:14
about how you invest

31:16
got a great story on that my parents who

31:18
were college basketball coaches which is

31:20
a hellish way to grow up both of them

31:22
were but they were tired and they they

31:24
ended up becoming elementary school

31:27
teachers in the north carolina public

31:28
school system and they retired and they

31:29
had this pension and they never

31:32
understood investments and grew up poor

31:34
mill worker families in north carolina

31:36
and i remember sitting with them when

31:38
they turn on their their pension and

31:40
they said well you know we just don't

31:41
have any money blah blah blah i said let

31:43
me run the number for you and show you

31:45
what it would take

31:46
by an immediate annuity to create the

31:48
lifetime income stream for both of you

31:50
joint life only which is what they're

31:52
getting

31:53
it was it was over a million dollars and

31:55
my dad

31:56
you know up to the day he passed away

31:59
wouldn't believe me on that no i just

32:00
don't believe that i'm like well then

32:01
where's the money coming from but the

32:03
point is you're right about these

32:04
pensions i mean you don't you don't look

32:06
at it as part of your net worth

32:07
obviously because it's not it's not

32:10
transferable to kids etc but it is part

32:12
of that income floor and for people that

32:15
are fortunate enough to have a pension

32:17
um you need to run that number it's

32:19
pretty good so you know for people that

32:21
have been school teachers thank you for

32:22
that

32:23
um you're getting rewarded um i wanted

32:25
to pivot a couple you wrote another

32:28
article on inflation before we get to

32:29
that

32:30
i would like you're not a pro

32:32
prognosticator but i'm dying to get into

32:34
your brain to see what you think about

32:36
the proposed alleged

32:39
fed

32:41
rate hikes that's that might happen

32:43
should happen plan to happen what do you

32:45
think's going to happen

32:47
you know as of i mean first of all

32:50
nobody knows and i i hate progress

32:52
prognosticators in general because the

32:55
reason i framed it so that we're not

32:56
doing that i just went in your brain a

32:58
little bit because i know you're

32:59
thinking about it

33:01
so i mean i think the chances change

33:03
from day to day but today it seems not

33:06
quite as likely that rates are going to

33:09
rise because there is a fear you know

33:11
markets are falling there's a fear that

33:12
the fed is going to stifle economic

33:15
growth if they raise rates right now in

33:18
the face of a potential global conflict

33:20
so

33:21
um who knows and stan this is a great

33:24
opportunity to say

33:26
um you know the time that you spent

33:29
listening to prognosticators in general

33:32
on tv there's i was just noticing that

33:34
jim cramer you know was was recommending

33:37
to buy the dip in the stock market a

33:39
couple days ago and everything was

33:40
saying so that there is this this

33:42
tremendous

33:43
um predictive ability that people like

33:46
he have of of predicting exactly the

33:48
wrong thing and

33:50
um you know a lot of people are have a

33:52
really terrible track record yet

33:54
we still listen to them um you know and

33:57
and if they were actually this good at

33:59
predicting what's going to happen they

34:00
should start their own headshots and

34:01
they would never talk to anybody that

34:03
and one i was i was hoping you were

34:05
going to give an answer somewhat of the

34:06
one you gave which was

34:07
it's day to day and it looks like it

34:09
changed today

34:10
[Laughter]

34:12
which is which is a great answer because

34:15
um you know i have people on the on the

34:17
podcast that are you know

34:19
or or big time advisors and they all

34:21
think this you know this is going to

34:22
happen jeremy siegel said this and

34:24
byron wien said this

34:26
and you know things are so fluid that

34:29
you really don't know so

34:31
my point is with everyone you can't time

34:33
it you can't time annuity purchases

34:34
which isn't a sales pitch it's just the

34:37
way it is which leads me into

34:39
an article you recently wrote about

34:41
inflation

34:43
and

34:45
inflation is personal for everybody as

34:47
you know michael um you know it affects

34:50
people differently since my kids are out

34:51
of the home and

34:53
and out of college you know i'm not

34:54
buying as much milk and taking them to

34:56
dance classes so i'm not driving as much

34:59
but not only are people going to get

35:01
inflation increases this year i'm

35:03
assuming you're thinking they're going

35:04
to get it next year with social security

35:06
as well

35:07
i think definitely and i think actually

35:08
for social security recipients

35:11
they're going to get more maybe more

35:12
than they should

35:13
uh and this is

35:14
wait a minute what are you running for

35:16
office no

35:18
obviously not yeah i'm not voting for

35:20
you i'm kidding explain so so

35:23
a lot of people who are you know

35:25
essentially what's happened

35:27
post pandemic if you can say that we're

35:29
post pandemic but as a lot more people

35:31
started returning to work of course that

35:34
increased demand for cars and gasoline

35:38
we've also seen

35:40
supply issues increasing prices of

35:42
certain types of goods

35:44
like red meat has gone up i've i've

35:46
termed this mannflation because cars and

35:49
gas and red meat have gone up

35:52
but for most retirees it really hasn't

35:55
been quite as serious if you actually

35:57
look at healthcare it's you know been

35:59
totally flat pharmaceuticals have been

36:02
totally flat you know maybe red meat

36:04
goes up but they can substitute poultry

36:06
which didn't even go up by ten percent

36:07
you know there's there's things seniors

36:09
can do to be a little bit more flexible

36:11
and especially if transportation

36:12
expenses are driving that increase in

36:15
inflation then you might actually get an

36:17
improvement in your standard of living

36:19
if your your social security goes up by

36:21
seven percent because your overall

36:23
expenses especially if you you know a

36:24
lot of a lot of people own their own

36:26
house a lot of people have property

36:27
taxes they get limited after a certain

36:29
age

36:30
for them

36:31
um their inflation hasn't gone up and by

36:34
the way when you're planning for

36:36
retirement um

36:37
pay attention to what percentage of your

36:40
expenses are

36:41
subject to increases in inflation and

36:44
what are what we call

36:46
stable nominal expenses so if you have a

36:48
mortgage that's if you have a fixed rate

36:50
mortgage that's a stable nominal expense

36:53
if you have live in a place that caps

36:54
your property taxes that's pretty much a

36:56
stable nominal expense

36:58
um if but you know obviously food that's

37:01
subject to a certain amount of inflation

37:04
you know travel costs may be subject to

37:06
a certain amount of inflation everybody

37:08
has a different rate of inflation for

37:09
the stuff that they buy but that's what

37:11
you really need to pay attention to and

37:13
i think in general for most retirees

37:16
inflation hasn't been as serious an

37:18
issue for them as it has been for say

37:21
younger working americans who have to

37:23
drive to work have to buy a car

37:26
you know for them it was a little bit

37:27
more serious

37:29
it seems like always this affects the

37:31
poor

37:32
more than it affects you know everyone

37:34
else which is sad but it's reality and

37:37
you know people that's the common

37:40
question that people ask me when they

37:42
get me on the phone hey stan what do you

37:43
think about inflation my question back

37:44
to him is tell me about you tell me

37:46
about how it's affecting you is it

37:47
affecting you you know if do you have

37:49
enough income go in it yeah um do you

37:52
have enough money in the bank yeah i

37:53
mean so i think it's personal i think

37:55
that

37:56
once again cable news and in the news

37:59
media they start pounding the table and

38:01
then people get

38:03
you know upset about something they

38:05
might not need to get upset about

38:07
um but there are people that are

38:08
planning et cetera in the past there

38:10
were annuities that had what's called

38:12
cpiu consumer price index for urban

38:15
consumer

38:17
attachments to the income stream but

38:18
those are no longer and they haven't

38:20
been around for a few years maybe

38:22
that'll come back in the future but just

38:24
remember if you want lifetime income

38:26
stream

38:27
and an increase to that lifetime income

38:28
stream annuity companies don't give that

38:30
away they significantly lower that

38:32
initial payment as compared to the exact

38:35
same annuity

38:37
without that cost of living adjustment

38:38
increase so just just put in the back

38:40
your head you already already own the

38:42
best inflation annuity on the planet and

38:44
michael's predicting even a greater

38:46
increase next year as well i mean if

38:49
they're going to go by the formula it

38:50
has to especially

38:52
if gas pops up like it's looking like

38:54
it's popping up

38:56
right you know at this point i think

38:58
it's it's important to talk about how

39:00
retirees spend money and

39:04
we

39:05
we know from the data that spending

39:07
tends to be the highest the first 10

39:08
years of retirement so i tend to worry a

39:12
little bit less about having nominal

39:14
annuity payments because social security

39:16
is going to rise with inflation

39:19
you may want to ensure that part of your

39:23
expenses are covered you know but part

39:25
of your expenses are going to be nominal

39:26
anyway so cover those expenses using a

39:29
nominal not inflation protected annuity

39:32
you already have a big base of inflation

39:33
protective income especially if you

39:35
delay claiming social security

39:38
um and in general what's going to happen

39:40
is you're spending in after inflation

39:42
terms is going to decline as you get

39:45
older in retirement so you're not going

39:46
on as many vacations when you're 80 as

39:49
you did when you were 70

39:51
um and you know health expenses rise

39:53
later on in life but by that time if you

39:55
have significant health expenses you're

39:56
not doing much else so uh spending does

40:00
not tend to continue to rise even in

40:02
those older ages when you have higher

40:05
medical expenses now i often see a culac

40:07
as a form of inflation protection

40:09
because

40:10
you can buy an income that's going to

40:12
pop up but you know maybe maybe you buy

40:14
one that starts at 80 you buy another

40:15
one that starts at 85. all of a sudden

40:17
you've created you've got a inflation

40:19
protected income from social security

40:21
you've created a nominal income through

40:23
an income annuity and then you can

40:25
actually buy an additional source of

40:26
income that pops up later on in life and

40:28
i'm a big fan of those because i think i

40:30
don't want to be managing a pot of money

40:33
to to provide income when i'm 95. i'm

40:36
not going to be as capable as i was when

40:38
i was 75 so automating your income later

40:41
in life

40:42
makes sense another reason why you and i

40:44
are fans of qlex

40:46
well yeah just transferring the risk for

40:48
for lifetime income and you can start it

40:49
at future dates you can ladder the

40:51
purchase you can allow the start date

40:52
you can ladder both you can do you can

40:54
you know you can time you can time those

40:57
purchases you just can't time uh the the

41:00
exact right time to buy an annuity and

41:02
and believe me annuity companies are

41:04
asking the questions that you as the

41:05
consumer are asking should i hold on to

41:07
it or should i buy it later or should i

41:09
defer it they're pricing it so it's not

41:11
a perfect decision on your behalf

41:14
getting back to just what you were

41:15
talking about

41:17
um

41:17
with with

41:18
retirees etc steve paris calls in i

41:21
don't know if it's unique to him but i

41:23
when he said it i loved it it's you know

41:24
you're you're go go slow go no go that's

41:27
your three phases of retirement your go

41:29
go and that's what you talked about the

41:30
first 10 years you're going to spend it

41:32
slogo is that cognitive decline that all

41:34
of us are going to have maybe michael

41:36
won't have that because his brain's

41:37
firing on all 12 cylinders

41:40
but the rest of us are going to have it

41:42
and then there's no go and that's what

41:44
he was talking about which at the at the

41:46
kind of the end of life time period

41:48
you're not going to spend as much money

41:50
because you're not going to be going out

41:51
and you're not as mobile

41:53
etc i think that

41:55
people just need to look at all of this

41:58
whether it's retirement

42:00
buying annuities looking at inflation

42:03
um it's personal it's personal and

42:05
customizable to you don't group yourself

42:08
into what the person on

42:10
fox cnn or msnbc fox business or cnbc

42:14
said it's it's about your situation

42:17
um and i would say tune all of that out

42:20
if you can for sure

42:22
um but inflation is going to be with us

42:24
it's not as janet yellen said transitory

42:27
do you believe that

42:31
i know i don't know who knows you know

42:32
stan none of us know

42:33
frankly um yeah we'll we'll see how it

42:36
all plays out i guess that's the

42:37
definition of transitory what's your

42:39
definition of transitory transitory

42:40
means two years yeah it could be gone in

42:42
two years the transitory is six months

42:44
in your mind

42:45
no it's not gonna be gone in six months

42:47
uh in my opinion just because of just

42:49
kind of what's happening

42:51
um but it is a weird world when i'm

42:53
looking at the gas prices right now i'm

42:55
glad i don't drive but i do fly a lot

42:57
but i i mean my heart goes out to people

42:59
that have to commute and do that for a

43:02
living

43:03
and obviously it's going to get passed

43:04
on to us via higher

43:07
prices at the grocery store etc

43:09
um

43:10
what are you working on right now other

43:12
than your typical digging into charts

43:15
and things like that what's peaking your

43:16
interest right now michael

43:19
you know one of the things that i have

43:21
been giving a lot of thought to is this

43:23
idea of not annuitizing with an

43:25
investment portfolio and what are

43:27
the consequences of not annuitizing sure

43:30
or

43:31
at least a portion of your income in

43:33
retirement

43:34
um if you

43:36
you know

43:36
there's a lot of thought you know people

43:38
who use these monte carlo analyses which

43:40
i i'm a big fan of monte carlo i think

43:42
it tells you something explain to the

43:43
people that not aren't familiar with

43:45
that as as a software they know the uh

43:47
they know the race over there tell them

43:49
what money money carla is spend so much

43:50
time with this stuff that i forget that

43:52
people don't know it so yeah that when

43:54
what is the monte carlo analysis a monte

43:56
carlo analysis is it's pretty

43:58
straightforward so let's say that you

44:00
start out retirement with a million

44:02
dollars and you decide that you want to

44:04
spend 40 000

44:06
per year in retirement from that million

44:09
dollar portfolio and let's say you

44:10
assume that you invest 60 percent of the

44:12
portfolio in stocks and 40 of the

44:14
portfolio in bonds now none of us know

44:17
what the returns on stocks or bonds are

44:19
going to be next year we do know that

44:20
bonds are probably going to be less

44:21
volatile

44:23
stocks are going to be more volatile and

44:25
that means that there is a probability

44:27
that stocks could go up by 20 there's a

44:29
probability they could go down by 20

44:32
we don't know in advance what's going to

44:33
happen so what we do is we simulate a

44:37
sequence of returns over the course of a

44:40
lifetime for thousands of retirees

44:44
it's not a real retiree it's a fake

44:46
retiree but we simulate what they would

44:49
go through if they experienced this

44:51
sequence of return so say retiree a has

44:54
a 40 return the first year in retirement

44:57
then now they they went from a million

44:59
to a million four they're going to be

45:01
withdraw still withdrawing 40 000 a year

45:04
they have a much better chance of being

45:06
able to do that over the course of their

45:08
lifetime now let's say you're an unlucky

45:10
retiree started out with a million you

45:12
have negative 30 percent your first year

45:14
something like 2008 happens all of a

45:17
sudden you go from you know maybe a 90

45:19
chance that you can

45:21
make that lifestyle that you can

45:23
continue to spend 40 000 a year

45:26
now all of a sudden you're down to 60

45:29
and that then what you know then you

45:32
have to cut back uh and that is

45:35
the

45:36
one of the things that i think a lot

45:37
about is

45:39
what is the value of buying some sort of

45:42
portfolio protection so this this is is

45:46
one of these areas and that that i think

45:48
you and i don't wade into all that often

45:51
but this is the idea that a

45:53
institution

45:55
you can go to an insurance company and

45:57
they can buy financial options that do

45:59
really well if the market does poorly

46:02
and they will tell you it's fine if you

46:05
withdraw forty thousand dollars or fifty

46:07
thousand dollars or forty five thousand

46:08
dollars from a million dollar portfolio

46:11
that's invested in stocks and bonds and

46:13
if you run out will be on the hook to

46:16
continue that 45 000 income as long as

46:20
you live now no financial advisor will

46:24
provide you with that guarantee you know

46:26
they'll say well you can you can follow

46:28
the four percent rule and it's worked

46:29
historically uh but if you ask them well

46:32
what if i lived to age 85 and i got

46:34
unlucky and the markets do really bad

46:36
and i run out are you going to are you

46:38
going to pick up the tab and they will

46:40
say well no i would never take that sort

46:42
of a liability well there are people who

46:44
will take that liability sure but they

46:46
will charge you for it because they have

46:48
to buy these options to these financial

46:50
options to protect against that

46:52
potential downside um and so they will

46:55
guarantee that you will continue to

46:58
receive an income if you run out by the

46:59
age of 85. so there is this concept of a

47:02
contingent deferred and the cdas yeah

47:05
they're out there but they're just not

47:07
good in my opinion

47:09
they're they're they're out there and

47:11
whether they're good or not depends on

47:13
the cost of hedging that risk and it's

47:17
expanding

47:18
and the rules underline there are some

47:20
rules

47:21
you have to understand the rules but

47:22
right i think that if you're you know

47:25
there's really two approaches to

47:26
annuitization one is you buy that floor

47:29
of income using bond investments the

47:31
other you have a portfolio and then you

47:33
add protection to that portfolio by

47:36
maybe

47:37
withdrawing you know one and a half

47:39
percent per year to pay for those

47:42
expenses of providing that lifetime

47:44
income guarantee right and it's a

47:45
different philosophy on annuitization

47:48
but it's one that fascinates me because

47:51
i think it is it is a different approach

47:53
to i think it's clear for people to

47:55
think in terms of i'm going to buy a

47:57
base of income with the bond portion of

48:00
my portfolio i'm going to add that to

48:02
social security i know i'm always going

48:04
to have that amount no matter how long i

48:05
live

48:06
but there's a there's a separate

48:08
annuitization feature which is this sort

48:10
of lifetime income feature

48:12
which we're spending some more time

48:15
studying it and it can be relatively

48:17
efficient and it's probably something we

48:20
we have to devote an entire episode to

48:22
some time because it is a completely

48:24
different philosophy on an annuitization

48:26
than the one i normally present but it's

48:28
one that's uh it's legitimate and it's

48:31
worth thinking about i would love to do

48:32
that on the next time we get together

48:34
because i simplify that thought into i

48:37
call it and i've written about it in my

48:38
books defer to spea which you don't

48:41
annuitize and then you annuitize

48:44
at the exact time you need income to

48:46
start

48:47
keeping your powder dry along the way

48:49
now the annuity gods look down upon me

48:52
and say please stop stan because we're

48:54
not getting sales and i tell the annuity

48:56
gods i'm like it doesn't matter what you

48:58
say because and for a lot of people

49:00
defer to spea makes sense and a lot of

49:02
people that

49:04
i feel are managing their portfolio or

49:05
someone's doing a good job with what

49:07
they're doing is like let's wait until

49:08
the exact time and then pull the trigger

49:11
then but with that being said that's a

49:13
very simplistic way i do think that

49:16
annuity companies looking at the

49:18
demographic tidal wave of baby boomers

49:20
retiring and looking for guarantees and

49:22
also looking for unique guarantees that

49:25
allow them to have their cake and eat it

49:26
too

49:28
i think you're going to see products and

49:31
strategies and offerings that are going

49:32
to do what you just said which is

49:34
provide that lifetime income strategy

49:36
while allowing you to continue

49:39
with kind of what you're doing and

49:41
they're called contingent deferred

49:42
annuities but i think in the future

49:44
they're going to be

49:46
um

49:47
better

49:49
better than what's out there because

49:50
it's uh and it's not been presented

49:52
really well

49:54
um and and the masters of the universe

49:57
stock portfolio people don't even want

50:00
to go there because they think they can

50:01
manage it and they can do it themselves

50:03
but i think i think more and more baby

50:05
boomers are pounding the table and

50:06
saying no no we want guarantees too

50:10
and i think that's that's going to be

50:12
you know as soon as you as soon as you

50:13
write the paper or what you want to talk

50:15
about it you know you know definitely

50:17
let's do that we're coming up on the

50:19
kind of the end of this this segment for

50:21
this time as i always do michael there's

50:24
a mic drop moment that i hand to you

50:26
to say something really

50:28
unbelievably

50:30
intellectual to the listeners so that

50:32
they can walk away and go man that was

50:34
great

50:35
so it's a mic drop it's your ball's in

50:37
your court go and say i think we have to

50:39
end it by saying that the best way to

50:41
stick it to the government is by

50:42
delaying your social security not taking

50:44
it early

50:46
something i want everybody to remember

50:47
it because i see it over and over again

50:51
that's michael finka stick it to the

50:53
government the right way

50:55
in your favor and uh that's that's

50:57
definitely a t-shirt material

50:59
and i want to thank michael for being on

51:01
as always it's it's uh every time we do

51:03
this i mean my emails and and messages

51:06
light up because they're like ask him

51:08
this next time ask him that i'm not that

51:09
organized you know we just kind of free

51:11
form this thing michael it's like

51:12
michael and i sitting around just

51:14
talking with cup of coffee but um i want

51:16
to thank everyone for joining us on all

51:18
the major podcast podcast platforms and

51:21
also on the fun with annuities youtube

51:23
channel

51:24
my name is standing nudity man yes this

51:25
is the

51:27
one of the fastest growing podcast on

51:28
the planet if you can believe that fun

51:30
with annuities and i will see you next

51:33
week

51:38
thanks for listening to fun with

51:40
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51:44
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51:47
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52:05
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52:07
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52:10
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52:12
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52:15
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[Music]

52:43
you