095 Gary Baker: Hot Buttons Being Pushed by the Annuity Industry in 2022

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can find out the brutal

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facts about annuities with no sales

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pitches or high pressure nonsense just

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the brutal and factual annuity truth

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which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

0:42
host stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent of course i'm licensed in

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all 50 states but i'm glad you asked

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welcome to everyone listening to us on

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the all the major podcast platforms

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and for all of you crazy people out

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there that are tuning in to the fun with

0:56
annuities youtube channel to see our

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facial expressions and uh our guest

1:01
stunning good looks um he is a repeat

1:03
guest in fact he was one of the first

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guests on

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uh fun with annuities from the the

1:08
celebrity podcast series that i'm doing

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and the reason he's one of the first

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because he is one of the smart guys in

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the room in the annuity industry and i

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want to welcome back

1:18
the grand poobah who runs canex gary

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baker the annuity dream maker gary

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how are you dan good how are you

1:27
you know gary i'm living the dream as

1:29
the living the annuity dream actually

1:31
i'm living the contractual realities i

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guess you could say

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um

1:35
but i wanted to get you back on because

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you have your finger on the annuity

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pulse as they say

1:42
um for just a little bit of background

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on gary other than him being a

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passionate penn state university

1:48
um football fan we are penn state um

1:51
happy valley he thinks is

1:53
the center of the universe i've had to

1:55
try to convince him otherwise but he

1:56
just keeps pounding the table on that

1:59
but

2:00
he runs a company uh called canex

2:03
c-a-n-n-e-x and canx

2:06
provides the quote so if you go to my

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site at the annuitymen.com and you run

2:11
immediate annuity quotes or deferred

2:12
income annuity quotes or qualified

2:14
longevity annuity quotes

2:16
that information that aggregation of

2:19
info is coming from gary's company

2:22
they are a leader

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i actually call them a monopoly but they

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they are the go-to source for

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for those types of quotes so they're

2:30
they're dialed in

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to all of the carriers you know we pay

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gary a huge fee

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for him to

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provide that service horse no it's

2:40
actually really fair he needs to raise

2:42
his prices

2:43
um and then so you know when you want to

2:45
get live close 24 7 365

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and you pull the quote up and then you

2:50
just immediately say you know what stan

2:52
the annuity man the annuity man i mean

2:54
this is phenomenal gary's behind that he

2:56
needs a little bit of love too so

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with that gary

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uh anything new in canx world what's

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happening over there in the data

3:06
smart people world

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well

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a lot

3:10
um you would think the pandemic would

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have slowed things down i guess what

3:14
where you're we're coming up on the 24th

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month right maybe 20 30 depending on

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your perspective but

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it just seems like

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things are just busier than ever in the

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whole industry so

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which kind of blows

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blows me away a little bit i think maybe

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because people don't have the community

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more so

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they're working while they're

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doing that period of time when they used

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to be commuting so i don't know there's

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a lot of projects going on there's a lot

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of

3:41
new products hitting the market um you

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know

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i would say like there's there's three

3:45
big things that that

3:47
that we see happening that

3:49
are responding to

3:51
um as a business just as a

3:54
you know as a function of what's going

3:55
out there in the annuity market but um

3:58
and we can dive into any one of these

4:00
yeah what are they what are the three

4:01
what are the things i would say one is

4:03
um there is just a lot of activity of

4:07
new

4:08
indexed annuity products hitting the

4:11
market and a lot of innovation as far as

4:13
different options and configurations

4:16
and uh you know and that certainly um

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that puts a lot of pressure on folks

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like you and other financial advisors

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who have to then figure this stuff out

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so

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that's that's one that's one it's just

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it's it's really increasing in a big way

4:30
so um we can talk a little bit about why

4:33
is that i mean do you think

4:36
do you think that the combination of i

4:39
mean we can call this the annuity

4:40
perfect storm you have 10 to 12 000

4:43
people hitting age 65 every day

4:46
looking for guarantees you have

4:48
market volatility even though we're in a

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raging bull market you know people like

4:53
us who even though we look dashingly

4:55
young we have seen

4:57
markets go down and we have scars from

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those events and i think people do too

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so

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kind of the market volatility and the

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fact that people all instinctually know

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that it's a little bit high

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do you think that's the reason you're

5:10
seeing fixed products and indexed

5:12
annuity products which is a fix fix

5:14
it's a fixed annuity issue by life

5:16
insurance companies not a security do

5:18
you think that's the reason you're

5:19
seeing the

5:20
tidal wave of indexed annuity stuff

5:22
coming in i don't know i mean there

5:25
could be a variety of reasons i think

5:28
the story

5:29
the basic story may appeal to some

5:32
people out there because as you know

5:35
when you're selling a myga

5:37
right the most simplest accumulation

5:39
product out there like a bank cd

5:41
you know you know what you're gonna get

5:43
three years okay give me my two and a

5:45
half percent and by the way this year

5:46
this could be going up right yeah on the

5:49
market what's up uh yeah right knock on

5:51
wood um or you know five years you know

5:53
give me my three percent i know i'm

5:54
gonna get three percent for five years

5:56
um

5:58
and

5:58
um because of that you know as you

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mentioned because of volatility people

6:02
may want to gravitate more towards that

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guarantee but

6:05
i think the the the

6:07
uh appealing nature of an index annuity

6:10
is a little gives you a little bit of

6:11
your cake and eat it too and that well

6:14
maybe i don't

6:15
maybe i just do a little bit better than

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that three percent right for five years

6:19
um maybe i'll have the opportunity to

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make four out of this fixed instrument

6:25
as opposed to three or four but there's

6:28
a likelihood i'll hit four or four and a

6:30
half it's not a guarantee

6:32
right so um you could go below three

6:36
potentially but you're probably not as

6:38
likely you're likely to get maybe a few

6:40
basis points maybe maybe a percentage

6:43
more than right or traditional miga

6:46
and so that story you know appeals to

6:49
folks and the way the insurance

6:51
companies make that happen is that they

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give you these um

6:55
opportunities to pick a market index and

6:57
then a formula that butts up against

6:59
that index which helps you keep score

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and just basically juices up the

7:03
crediting

7:04
of the insurance contract to give you a

7:06
little bit more than that three percent

7:07
so

7:08
it when when you think about it it's you

7:11
know it's a way to get maybe a higher

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likelihood of maybe getting a little bit

7:15
more than that three percent but you

7:17
know you're not guaranteed

7:19
it's a president what's the innovations

7:21
you're saying i mean you know back in

7:22
the day because we we were around

7:25
in the 1995 when it first came index

7:27
news first came out what's some of the

7:29
innovations you're seeing

7:30
other than different indices or index

7:33
call options

7:34
anything new

7:36
that

7:37
headset

7:38
yeah so there's two things one is um and

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i'll quickly go through both one is on

7:42
the fixed indexed arena

7:45
um they're introduced they're building

7:48
new types of blended indices

7:52
to increase the likelihood that you're

7:54
gonna hit that four percent so if you

7:56
think about a an index annuity

7:58
um just think about you know you're

8:00
going to the bowling alley right and

8:04
so you know if you know you're going to

8:05
hit gutter balls then you ask for the

8:07
the the bowling at ali attend to put up

8:09
those bumpers you know

8:11
on both sides i think you know maybe i

8:13
don't know you might be a better bowler

8:14
in that stand but you know well when i

8:16
was a long time ago when i was drinking

8:18
i didn't care how i was bowling so yes

8:21
so just imagine putting those bumpers up

8:23
next to the gutters and um

8:26
and that's basically the index annuity

8:28
is gonna make sure that you know if you

8:30
hit the seven pin on the left you're not

8:31
gonna lose your principle right it's

8:33
gonna be you know you you know you won't

8:35
lose more than zero um and then on the

8:38
right side of the alley you know where

8:40
the tenkin might be um

8:42
there's a cat you know well you know

8:44
depending upon how things score out

8:46
if i do well i'll hit the cap

8:49
at four four and a half or something

8:50
like that and and then and then i know

8:53
i'm doing well

8:54
um if you throw the ball down and it

8:56
keeps hitting the bumpers going all the

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way down that's a lot of volatility and

9:00
you're losing your likelihood that you

9:02
may hit the tin pin

9:04
you just did a bowling and lg you know

9:05
what they call bowling alleys now gary

9:07
don't you

9:08
no what they call them condominiums

9:12
because

9:14
because they just tear them down about

9:16
condominiums but fortunately my

9:18
listening group out here listeners

9:21
across the fruited plain um they

9:23
understand what a bowling alley is and

9:25
probably have actually been in one now

9:26
for you youngsters out there

9:28
um look it up google it but i think

9:30
that's that's a good that's a good

9:32
analogy just so people got to remember

9:34
it's a fixed annuity you're not going to

9:36
lose money the downside is zero

9:38
right

9:39
exactly

9:40
i hate it when people say zero is your

9:42
hero no zero's not your dang hero that's

9:45
the dumbest state if anyone ever says

9:47
that to you get up walk out just hang

9:49
the phone up that's just such corn pone

9:52
nonsense indexed annuity slap your mama

9:55
junk

9:56
that okay i'll get off my soapbox okay

9:58
what's the other thing and then there's

10:00
a the second innovation is and where

10:02
there's a lot of activity is

10:05
what they refer to as a registered index

10:08
linked annuity which is really you could

10:10
say it's more of a variable contract and

10:12
what that really really means

10:14
is that i'm widening those bumpers so

10:17
maybe i have a higher likelihood of

10:19
making five or six

10:21
but in return the trade-off is maybe

10:24
i'll lose a little money maybe i'll lose

10:26
up to ten percent of my principal so

10:28
are these also called buffer annuities

10:30
gary yep bumper i know there's so many

10:33
different names for them shields buffers

10:36
you know

10:37
basically all it's doing is widening the

10:39
the you know it's winding the the top

10:42
and the bottom and because you can maybe

10:44
lose a little bit money potentially you

10:47
also have a likelihood of making a

10:48
little bit more but again of course you

10:50
know i call them i call them copay

10:52
annuities um just because that's what

10:54
they are right in english

10:57
so i guess that story is kind of

10:58
resonating a little bit especially yeah

11:00
it is like a community so so i think

11:02
that's why so i would say there was

11:04
probably 18 months ago maybe

11:08
a half dozen carriers i've had one of

11:10
those uh registered index link annuities

11:13
but um i think by the end of this year

11:15
you may see up to maybe two dozen

11:17
it's really it's very interesting well

11:20
i also think that's a reflection of

11:23
the brokered dealer space which i

11:25
dominated g for a long long time at

11:28
morgan stanley deanwood or penn webber

11:29
ubs

11:31
but they're now

11:32
they're now

11:33
bringing in annuity products and bank

11:36
channels are bringing in annuity

11:37
products and registered investment

11:39
advisors masters of the universe are are

11:42
are grasping annuity products for

11:44
whatever reason

11:46
um

11:48
do you think that's another

11:50
another reason for the growth in the

11:52
annuity sector because

11:54
the distribution channels are widening

11:56
as well

11:57
yeah yeah i mean

11:59
i think you hit on the head i think the

12:00
second biggest thing that we see is that

12:03
the industry is making a concerted

12:06
effort

12:07
to make

12:09
annuity products more mainstream for the

12:11
financial planner

12:13
i think you know really up to this point

12:15
it's been a specialist game

12:18
and um you know as far as

12:21
the breadth of adoption and it's not

12:24
just it's just not the consumer but it's

12:26
breadth of the adoption of the advisors

12:28
part of their practice so

12:30
you're seeing a huge amount of money and

12:32
investment by firms to

12:36
make an annuity as

12:38
not only is easy to understand for the

12:41
advisor but to help advisors configure

12:44
these products and maybe you can give me

12:46
like a few minutes here to explain what

12:48
i'm

12:49
talking about here um

12:51
you know you could either buy a real

12:53
simple annuity and i think that's that's

12:55
a lot of your story your value right

12:57
just get the contractual guarantee

12:59
just give me just give me the guarantee

13:01
you know oh my god you know what we have

13:03
a handful of indexed annuity

13:06
carriers that

13:08
fit my

13:10
parameters for

13:12
potential growth but there is a handful

13:15
there's not a lot believe me it's a

13:17
handful and i think in your case though

13:19
it's because of the guarantee on the

13:20
income rider

13:22
in many cases correct but we are

13:24
supposed to

13:26
but we have i'll tell you what's

13:27
happened on our end too is we've seen

13:30
carriers

13:31
develop better

13:33
index option

13:35
um pro consumer index option

13:38
choices to where we're helping people

13:41
go in that lane as well so they might do

13:43
a you know if they want accumulation we

13:46
might do a you know a miga ladder with

13:48
an indexed annuity on the back end just

13:50
because because there has been a change

13:52
in in the what carries our offer i think

13:55
curies have listened to people like me

13:57
and saying you can't just throw it out

13:59
there you can't just throw it out there

14:00
and see what sticks you have to bring

14:02
something that brings value

14:04
and i think it's great i think the

14:06
consumers are driving that and they're

14:08
dragging these annuity carriers across

14:10
the finish line to give them a better

14:13
product yeah

14:14
oh and uh you know really that is what's

14:17
going on they're trying to add as much

14:19
value out there and they're trying to

14:20
compete against each other too so

14:23
that's so

14:24
the the challenge with with an annuity

14:27
sometimes is that when you're adopting

14:29
as part of maybe a more complex

14:31
financial plan

14:33
or state plan or retirement plan

14:36
um

14:37
you know an annuity can

14:40
be configured to fill the gaps in the

14:42
slots within that plant so

14:44
it's just not a one size fit all so when

14:46
you think about an annuity contract you

14:48
have the opportunity to get like four

14:49
different types of protections

14:51
but you're

14:53
you're filling the gap in a plan with

14:54
maybe one or two of those protections

14:56
and you need to know how to configure

14:57
that contract so those protections are

15:00
protection against uncle sam right as

15:02
far as the tax deferral if that's a main

15:05
objective another one is protecting your

15:07
principle

15:08
not guaranteeing but protecting it

15:11
um a third one a third one's death

15:13
benefit

15:14
and of course the fourth one is income

15:16
benefit so

15:17
depending upon what gaps you're filling

15:20
in a broader financial plan you can take

15:22
one of these contracts

15:24
and configure it right and so that it

15:27
fits within that plan as opposed the

15:29
other way around as opposed to saying

15:31
the annuity is your plan right you're

15:33
you're fitting it in and and there's

15:35
there's there's some there's a lot of

15:37
support and theory around depending upon

15:38
different financial planning methods

15:40
that where that comes to play

15:42
the thing is with what's happening is

15:44
that

15:45
there's um there's an increase in tools

15:47
and support uh and we're part of that

15:50
support too which allows the advisor to

15:52
figure out which configuration not only

15:55
what configuration of the annuity may

15:57
work best for a particular plan

15:59
depending upon one of those elements but

16:02
if i know that i'm going for something

16:04
that's gonna have uh you know the you

16:06
know um the best type of uh protection

16:10
or

16:10
uh an allocation of investment options

16:13
within that annuity i need to know maybe

16:16
which one should i need to pick in the

16:17
first place so to your point if you're

16:19
looking for the best fixed index annuity

16:21
in your case you know for for that type

16:24
of guarantee not all fixed index

16:25
annuities are created equal you need a

16:27
process where you have to go in and

16:28
figure out okay which ones are providing

16:30
the best value for what you're trying to

16:32
accomplish with your clients right and

16:35
what we do support for that no doubt and

16:38
there's what we do is you know if you

16:40
say

16:41
two questions what do you want the money

16:42
to contractually do and when you want

16:44
those contractual guarantees to start if

16:45
you say income and income later now

16:47
we're looking at income riders and the

16:48
product immediately becomes a commodity

16:50
at which we shop all income riders but

16:52
if you say

16:53
principal protection

16:55
with you know the g word growth

16:57
um then then it's not a commodity

17:00
anymore you have to then do the analysis

17:03
to to make sure and that's the reason

17:05
there's only just a handful that that

17:07
our team and our staff have have deemed

17:09
appropriate and suitable for people

17:11
um

17:12
and it really just it just it's that

17:15
it's that complex on the index annuity

17:17
side you just can't buy an indexed

17:18
annuity they're not all made the same

17:20
you can if you if you want income in the

17:22
future with an income rider then let's

17:24
go buy an income rider

17:26
because that's always going to be the

17:27
highest valuation

17:29
um on that on that policy so what else

17:32
is kind of new that you're seeing out

17:33
there gary um i think the third thing is

17:36
there's also a lot of focus and

17:39
investment in making

17:42
simple annuity solutions available

17:47
at the workplace

17:48
either within the 401k or as a rollover

17:51
option now the 401k for planned

17:53
participants the

17:55
it's weird i i think once the

17:57
the government um

17:59
about two plus years or so ago uh passed

18:03
a bill called the secure act which

18:06
kind of provides some cover for the

18:08
planned sponsor of the employer as a

18:10
fiduciary and

18:12
providing some annuity options to to

18:15
their employees what it did was shelter

18:17
them from a fiduciary rule yeah because

18:20
in the fiduciary setting of which we

18:22
live in

18:24
you know you're showing all you're

18:25
quoting all carriers for the highest

18:27
contractual guarantee we're showing all

18:28
carriers there's no agendas there's no

18:30
hey i got to sell this because i want to

18:31
go on a trip to bora bora

18:33
it's you're you're putting in front of

18:35
them the best contractual guarantees

18:36
what the secure act did when you when

18:39
you're at you have your 401k or your or

18:42
you're playing at the employer what they

18:43
did is they said yeah you don't have to

18:45
show all the carriers but but you have

18:47
to show a few

18:48
i'm not sure i'm a big fan of that i

18:50
understand the logistics of it but what

18:52
that then comes down to is now you have

18:55
the big boys buying in to the platforms

18:58
to be shown by the plans which i don't

19:00
think is perfect all the time but

19:03
you know nothing in life is perfect gary

19:05
except your trombone plane when you're

19:07
in the band because he is a musician by

19:09
one side

19:10
um you know but you know

19:12
well yeah i mean what's interesting is

19:14
that um

19:16
you know

19:18
rather than showing multiple options to

19:19
the planned participant it's the

19:21
employer the planned sponsor who has to

19:23
make a decision on a product

19:26
and some of these you know some of these

19:29
configurations can be a little bit more

19:31
complex because sure if you ignore

19:33
what's going on under the hood they're

19:35
trying to provide an allocation option

19:38
within your 401k where you're buying

19:41
units of a pension over time and they're

19:43
making this available more to say the

19:45
middle market not necessarily you know

19:47
mass affluent or high net worth or folks

19:49
that have the ability i'm all for it i

19:51
think it's great

19:53
because

19:54
the more people understand that

19:56
annuities are the only product that can

19:58
provide a lifetime income stream like

20:00
the annuity you already own i.e social

20:02
security the better the annuity industry

20:04
is going to be

20:06
because that's the monopoly that the

20:08
annuity industry has which is lifetime

20:09
income

20:10
and there's no roi until you die because

20:12
they're going to pay as long as you're

20:14
breathing as i think this is a good

20:16
foundational educational step

20:19
that the industry has been drug across

20:21
the finish line i think that the annuity

20:22
industry is going to be successful in

20:24
spite of themselves just because they're

20:26
in the way of all this

20:28
period

20:29
well i think they're learning and

20:30
they're getting better and just figuring

20:32
out where the sweet spots are but uh i

20:34
think at the same time um even though

20:36
there's complexity being introduced

20:39
i think the simplification or applying

20:42
those in a much more simple manner um is

20:45
improving as well so i mean heck if you

20:47
if you think some of the advisors are

20:49
like deers and headlights trying to

20:50
figure out all these new types of

20:51
annuities coming to market right just

20:52
imagine trying to have that conversation

20:54
with the head of hr right you know for

20:57
for the company plan right

21:00
and the limited choices on a 401k type

21:03
plan where they're offering a lifetime

21:05
income product internally i mean the

21:07
problem i see with the industry is

21:09
um you know at the banks and at the

21:11
brokerage firms and at the large places

21:13
like fidelity they have a limited

21:15
offering of annuity companies i mean

21:17
they they have five or six or whatever

21:20
that's that's um

21:23
that's not bad but it's not perfect

21:25
right so you have to just have to know

21:27
that if you're if you're a comp a client

21:30
of one of these big banks brokers firms

21:33
you know online brokerage firms you have

21:35
to understand there's a limited amount

21:38
of carriers that they offer they're not

21:40
offering everybody um they'll have a

21:42
story of the reason why but the reason

21:44
you know it's a pay for play these these

21:46
carriers typically

21:48
you know to get on those platforms

21:49
typically not all the time they have

21:51
there has to be some type of

21:53
um agreement between them and the bank

21:56
brokerage and online brokerage to do

21:58
that once again i think overall it's

22:00
good because people are getting more

22:02
um educated on the product but i think

22:05
they start finding out that it's

22:06
commoditized pretty quickly once you're

22:09
looking at lifetime income

22:10
or just you know a fixed rate

22:13
annuity uh it's the potential

22:15
hypothetical theoretical projected

22:17
back-tested nonsense that starts mudding

22:20
muddying the waters and and filling up

22:23
the bad chicken dinner seminar

22:25
attendance list

22:26
well you know you bring up you bring up

22:27
another interesting point i think uh

22:29
historically and

22:31
because of those limited um

22:34
shells if you will or

22:35
product products available at some some

22:38
of the larger firms i think that was a

22:40
function of maybe the lack of technology

22:42
or tools

22:44
to allow to just figure out how to work

22:46
with a broader sub annuity so in the old

22:48
days

22:49
um you know

22:51
let's face it typical financial advisor

22:54
without these these tools these tools

22:55
are technology you know though they'll

22:58
just go with three types of or three

23:00
products or carriers that they're more

23:02
familiar with it's like a car shop right

23:04
you know you walk with like well i only

23:06
tune up forwards and i only turn up

23:07
shows right

23:09
but now you know in the old days you

23:11
know the commercials like wow foreign

23:12
car never tuned one of those up before

23:14
right so

23:15
i think with technology now you have the

23:17
tools and the capabilities maybe to go

23:19
across the all the makes and models

23:22
um to be able to figure out what's

23:24
inside and maybe make it click so i i

23:26
think that's

23:27
again that's where the industry's

23:29
investing into but um you're right you

23:31
know i think there's still a long way to

23:32
go for

23:34
some of those um some of those firms

23:36
that open up to to more products

23:38
available to their advisors and once

23:40
again we're talking to gary baker who's

23:43
the ceo grand poobah of canx

23:45
which is

23:47
the the company that's the leader of

23:49
this so when he talks about tech

23:51
technological advances

23:53
he's being very modest he's talking

23:55
about canex he's talking about them and

23:58
what's happening is the banks and the

23:59
brokerage firms and the big these big

24:01
big people are coming to gary and his

24:04
group and saying

24:05
you build us this this objective

24:07
platform so that we can analyze the

24:10
products real time

24:12
um which then what gary's

24:14
what gary's actually doing is helping

24:16
the industry by providing these

24:18
objective platforms so that

24:20
these these new people to the annuity

24:22
world the bankers the brokers the rias

24:25
are looking at it from a more analytical

24:27
standpoint not just hey we have this

24:29
carrier let's see what they do because

24:31
gary's company which i love about canx

24:34
and gary is there's there's no

24:37
there's no favorites from this i mean of

24:39
course i'm his favorite but that's okay

24:41
but there's no favorite from a carrier

24:42
standpoint they're just they're just

24:44
putting in data they're a data company

24:47
that provides real-time data for us out

24:50
here to either provide real-time quotes

24:53
or in some cases with ryla's and

24:56
and indexed annuities to provide

24:58
real-time analysis did i get that right

25:01
gary am i hired as your pr firm

25:03
absolutely and so we support a lot of

25:05
third-party applications who have

25:07
different processes

25:09
um to support selection or modeling or

25:12
allocation within those products and

25:15
we support a lot of that functionality

25:17
behind the covers you know or

25:18
undercovers or behind the scenes for

25:20
them to do that so really um

25:23
you know you can run any type of

25:24
electrical current you want through the

25:26
product just to figure out whether or

25:27
not it's going to configure or align

25:29
with what we're trying to put together

25:31
for the client

25:32
i just wrote down behind the covers

25:34
because i really believe that's going to

25:35
be a good song title of our band when we

25:38
when we finally put together the band

25:40
because i mixed

25:43
under the covers and behind the scenes

25:44
so behind the covers

25:46
will create confusion of which i love so

25:49
you know i'll work on those lyrics gary

25:50
will put together

25:53
one of the things that you said earlier

25:54
and i wrote it down is you kept

25:56
referring to annuities as contracts and

25:59
which is right which is on the money

26:02
because if you don't believe annuities

26:03
or contracts buy one guess what you're

26:05
going to get in the mail it's called a

26:06
policy but gary and i call it a contract

26:09
so these are contracts that you need to

26:11
understand

26:12
and if somebody if you're if you're

26:14
looking at one of these rilers or index

26:17
annuities and you don't understand it

26:19
ask the person hopefully it's me

26:22
for that specimen policy we can get you

26:25
that

26:26
we can get you whatever you need to read

26:28
before you sign the paperwork don't

26:30
don't buy the sales pitch because you're

26:32
going to own the contractual

26:34
reality so i thought that was key when

26:35
you just you know just

26:37
instinctually call it a contract because

26:39
it is and i think that's that's a

26:42
distinction that needs to be made over

26:44
and over out here we do that but too

26:46
many times people are looking these as

26:48
investments they really are contracts

26:49
you just have to understand how that

26:51
contract works what else is new out here

26:54
gary well i mean i i think that i mean

26:56
those are the three big things that are

26:58
keeping us busy or that we see generally

27:01
in the industry you know as far as again

27:03
the the big introduction of

27:05
more and more index products uh

27:07
more technology and support to advisors

27:10
so they can sort through and configure

27:12
these contracts and thirdly the the

27:14
whole

27:15
the pension well the fine contribution

27:17
pension replacement at the work site so

27:20
that's keeping those three things are

27:21
keeping a lot of people busy these days

27:23
tell the people what ryla means what's

27:25
that stand for well you know it's

27:28
registered index linked annuity right so

27:31
you could but so if you were to it's

27:33
very confusing

27:35
because you have to be a registered rep

27:38
um to solve that type of index annuity

27:41
because of the opportunity that you may

27:43
lose a little bit of your principle um

27:46
if you got that and that compared so you

27:48
could say well why isn't

27:49
that uh nfi called a fixed index linked

27:53
annuity well you could probably call it

27:55
that too so it's there's arguments

27:57
there's arguments for that being a

27:58
security as well right i mean we've been

28:01
through that oh yeah yeah but you know

28:03
but you can't go below zero right from

28:05
that standpoint that's true you know we

28:07
don't we don't we don't have any

28:08
opinions on that gray area or that food

28:10
fight no no and that's what i love about

28:12
what you guys do at canx because

28:15
you're providing the data points and the

28:17
the real-time data that that you are

28:20
getting from the carrier on the

28:23
carrier's product to then provide to

28:27
the advisor to make the analysis

28:29
do you ever see a time

28:31
gary that

28:33
that type of analytical information is

28:36
available to the public

28:40
um

28:42
i

28:43
don't know in the same way you know

28:46
and if and if not why not if so if it's

28:49
no then why

28:50
i think the for same reason you want to

28:52
go to a doctor as opposed to go to webmd

28:56
every time you feel naked yeah but

28:57
people go to webmd though that's my

28:59
whole point

29:00
of going to a doctor

29:02
yeah i mean that but that's my whole

29:03
point though

29:04
we are in a society where good or bad

29:06
but it's you know you can't put the

29:08
toothpaste back into the tube

29:10
where people want to do their own

29:12
research before they go into the doctor

29:16
yeah no i mean i i i granted i mean

29:18
there's i mean we've we've sponsored a

29:20
lot of research over the years as far as

29:22
what consumers want versus what

29:24
financial advisors think they want

29:27
um you know they certainly uh

29:30
they actually um financial advisors

29:32
actually underestimate what consumers

29:34
want but you know in a lot of cases

29:36
annuities um

29:38
there's there's there are

29:40
there is a large section of investors or

29:42
consumers um

29:44
those that will go to somebody that who

29:46
they may want to trust and say oh you

29:47
know this is so confusing you just tell

29:49
me what to do on the other hand there

29:51
are there are investors out there that

29:53
want to know they want that research and

29:55
the question is how do you package that

29:57
in a way where

29:58
you know you can at least have a

30:00
simplified experience

30:02
you know uh publicly for them to go to a

30:05
website to do that type of research it's

30:06
called cannix to consumer c the number

30:09
two c dot com

30:11
no it doesn't exist

30:14
but um

30:16
see we rely on folks like you to do that

30:19
yeah i understand and i think i think

30:20
we're going to eventually get there to

30:22
where um

30:23
you know we might just do that we might

30:26
just provide that analytical tool we

30:28
provide everything else the last piece

30:30
is to provide the analytical tools that

30:32
you are offering the only thing is is

30:34
will you allow us to do it when that

30:36
time comes i think we're a couple years

30:37
away but there but once again the great

30:40
part about what's happening in the

30:42
annuity industry in my opinion obviously

30:44
you have pioneers out here like me that

30:45
are taking all the arrows and doing a

30:47
direct consumer model up to the point

30:49
that we legally can you know uh meaning

30:52
that at the end someone with a license

30:54
does have they do have to talk to you

30:55
before as you're filling up the

30:57
application but eventually that won't be

30:59
the case

31:00
um i think that the great part that's

31:02
happening in the annuity industry

31:04
is

31:05
the consumer

31:08
they are molding the products they're

31:10
molding and demanding how things are

31:14
going to work they're molding and

31:15
demanding

31:16
transparency

31:18
and that's always a good thing when the

31:19
consumer runs it not the companies in my

31:22
opinion do you do you agree with that

31:23
statement

31:24
yeah i don't think you know and to get

31:26
to that point i don't

31:28
think you focus as much as the product

31:31
or the engine under the hood

31:33
you're you're molding a solution based

31:36
upon a need which may already allocate

31:39
across

31:40
an annuity plus something else right so

31:43
rather than

31:44
trying to explain to everybody um on how

31:47
the pistons work and and the spark plugs

31:49
if you will

31:51
uh they just know that you know when you

31:52
look at the ingredients on the back of a

31:54
soup can you know you know that it's you

31:56
know equal parts of this that or well

31:59
maybe not so equal parts but you know

32:01
you see what the ingredients are you

32:03
know behind the scenes and i think i

32:04
think as far as the for the general

32:07
public or consumers um being able to

32:09
mold

32:10
uh solutions that that that solve a

32:13
specific need that they have knowing

32:15
that behind the covers there are certain

32:18
investments or um contracts that are

32:21
going to support that need so i think

32:24
i don't think you could get anywhere

32:25
trying to explain

32:26
to the public why one index annuity

32:29
products better than the other

32:31
it's a matter of what gets configured

32:33
under the hood and then what's the what

32:35
are you actually solving you know

32:36
ultimately at the best value

32:40
recently gary there was a a carrier that

32:43
we will not name that pretty much came

32:45
out and said in a press release

32:48
that they're no longer going to go

32:49
they're no longer going to be focused on

32:51
the guarantees of an annuity they're

32:54
going to be more focused on potential

32:56
hypothetical theoretical back tests to

32:58
hopefully unicorns chasing the butterfly

33:00
stuff

33:01
that drives me crazy

33:03
but they're doing that for profit

33:05
reasons very obvious

33:07
um

33:08
[Music]

33:09
do you see that as a canary in the coal

33:11
mine and as a trend going forward

33:14
because you know annuity companies are

33:16
for-profit there are big there there is

33:19
big money coming in who demand returns

33:22
do you see that being a trend are they a

33:24
one-off

33:27
um

33:28
i don't necessarily see as a trend um

33:31
you know insurance companies have been

33:33
around for hundreds of years and

33:35
they're pulling risk

33:37
at the end of the day and

33:39
and

33:40
they've gotten really good on how to

33:42
manage that risk on behalf of the

33:44
investor now that being said um there's

33:47
different flavors of insurance companies

33:50
that support these contracts you have

33:52
the ones that are stock owned you have

33:54
ones that are mutual you know owned by

33:56
the policy holder um

33:59
and and

34:00
and there is you know there's a reason

34:01
why you have those ratings out there i

34:03
mean double a triple a you know

34:06
still means a lot you know when you're

34:09
when you're looking at that and because

34:10
they're managing the reserves

34:11
appropriately but that being said there

34:14
are some firms that are looking to um

34:17
you know increase

34:19
incrementally their profit margins you

34:21
do have some carriers now today that are

34:23
going offshore

34:25
yeah that's a concern and you have a lot

34:28
of these equity um

34:30
companies that are buying up some of

34:31
these insurance blocks and maybe um

34:33
looking for some of that incremental

34:35
return so

34:36
i that i

34:38
you know that that seems to be something

34:39
that's happening a little bit more and

34:41
more in fact you're seeing some of these

34:42
large insurers even dipping their toe

34:44
into those waters but

34:46
um you know i think it's a matter of how

34:48
do you you know not only how you make a

34:50
product more efficient but how you keep

34:51
the balance sheet more efficient in the

34:53
background but i don't think it's going

34:54
to be anything that's going to remove an

34:56
insurance carrier from providing these

34:58
guarantees or protections they're just

35:01
looking ways to maybe make it more

35:02
efficient but for somebody to completely

35:04
back out of hedging their costs for

35:06
offering any type of a guarantee i think

35:09
that's just more of a one-off business

35:10
decision of that firm you know got it

35:13
well you know i had carrie pector of the

35:15
return he's the editor of retirement

35:17
income journal which is kind of an

35:18
industry

35:19
journal and he was talking he he's

35:22
written an article called the bermuda

35:23
triangle

35:25
of annuities where companies are going

35:26
offshore and what gary just mentioned

35:30
is

35:31
is that a concern that you're hearing

35:32
people talk about because i thought it

35:34
was very innovative for him to

35:37
to approach that

35:39
you know because that's that's a

35:42
you're tiptoeing into some tough waters

35:44
there because you have big companies

35:46
doing that and i know you got a lot of

35:47
blowback on that

35:50
is that a concern for these companies

35:52
you know going to bermuda so there's no

35:54
regulations and because at the end of

35:56
the day you know customers are are

35:59
trusting these these carriers with their

36:02
retirement parts of their retirement

36:04
is that a concern for you or are you

36:06
okay with all that um

36:08
i i guess the real question is uh what

36:10
type of transparency involved is

36:12
involved in that um

36:14
there are services out there and

36:17
you can certainly comment on this which

36:19
provide a little bit more background on

36:21
the insurance carrier back in that

36:22
guarantee yeah we look at the alpha and

36:26
i'm not sure how much um

36:29
these offshore trends are playing into

36:31
those rankings or those scores

36:34
um so i is it's new and developing you

36:37
know it was niche and now it's becoming

36:40
a little bit mainstream as far as how

36:42
some firms are managing their balance

36:43
sheets so

36:44
you know i i think i with that i think

36:47
they'll probably be more um a little bit

36:49
more light shown on that in the

36:51
regulators maybe digging a little bit

36:52
deeper and i think maybe there'll be

36:54
some adjustments or views on how that

36:56
ends up on how you score or would rank

36:59
or rate you know insurance carriers

37:01
depending upon how much they're going

37:03
offshore i just i just hope that the

37:05
industry is very very proactive on that

37:07
instead of being reactive reactive is

37:09
we're having a problem and then solving

37:11
it i'd like for them to solve it before

37:12
there's a problem that would be because

37:14
it's obvious it's something that we need

37:16
to look at as an industry because

37:18
up until a few years ago this was an old

37:21
stodgy travel agency type model

37:24
of how annuities were sold now the smart

37:26
people and the wall street people and

37:28
then private equities and the investment

37:29
banks the family office all those people

37:31
are starting to look at it because they

37:33
want to get in in front of that

37:34
demographic tidal wave so what you're

37:36
going to have a bunch of sociopaths with

37:38
a lot of money now in the annuity

37:40
industry which isn't a good combination

37:42
fortunately the annuity industry has

37:44
really good oversight and regulations

37:48
in place i always tell people they're

37:49
not smarter than banks they're just more

37:50
regulated in my opinion

37:52
uh which is why we haven't seen a lot a

37:54
lot of issues what other whispers are

37:56
you hearing out there gary without

37:57
mentioning names and carriers

37:59
that

38:00
in addition to interest rates being low

38:02
perceive low um and when i say proceed

38:05
low everybody this could be the new

38:07
normal hopefully it's not but for the

38:09
last six years all i've heard from

38:11
people is well rates have to go up stone

38:13
roosters they don't have to okay

38:16
what other what other items are you

38:19
hearing out there if anything

38:22
as far as the market itself just just

38:24
yeah the annuity industry uh in addition

38:26
to what you've you've already said

38:28
what's the concerns i mean what are they

38:30
obviously they're happy because there's

38:31
so many people turning 65 looking for

38:33
guarantees and looking for

38:35
income and that type of thing but what's

38:38
what's keeping them up at night if

38:40
anything

38:41
um well i'm sure a lot of things um

38:47
you know beyond the things that we just

38:48
hit upon

38:50
um

38:52
i you know i can't think of anything

38:53
else you know that

38:55
you know outside of maybe just just

38:57
one-off things here and there

38:59
for number four i mean at the end of the

39:01
day it's a competitive industry yes it

39:03
is and um there's there's a lot you know

39:06
there's a lot of insurers out there and

39:08
there's a lot of people with with

39:09
product out there and

39:11
and

39:12
you know even uh

39:14
you know firms

39:16
you know foreign uh own firms or firms

39:19
operating other markets looking to get

39:20
into the us yeah you know is so i think

39:23
i think competition will continue to

39:25
intensify so

39:27
and that's always a good thing i think i

39:28
think the consumer's the winner on that

39:30
oh yeah yeah i mean but with more

39:32
competition then you know that

39:35
if you're not good

39:38
yep

39:39
you're you're right about you're right

39:41
about that and i do think that um

39:44
if we do have some market volatility

39:46
that that is

39:48
you know that last a little bit it's

39:50
going to be it's going to be interesting

39:52
i do think if they raise rates is my

39:53
opinion

39:54
the second they raise rates either one

39:56
or two times the market stock market's

39:58
going to react

40:00
negatively and i don't i don't foresee

40:02
them raising the four times that they're

40:04
talking about in 2022

40:06
i hope they do that'd be great but

40:09
i don't know what's your do you have any

40:11
opinion on on interest rates and what

40:13
they're going to what they're going to

40:14
do here if they're everything actually

40:15
going to do what they say they're going

40:16
to do

40:17
i'd be working for myself at that point

40:19
you know

40:28
if interest rates do go up right i mean

40:30
sometimes when i'm sure when you talk to

40:33
some of your clients i say well

40:35
you know why would i buy one of these

40:37
things in such a low interest rate

40:39
environment mm-hmm right yeah i've heard

40:41
that a few times right so that okay well

40:44
does it really change if it's a higher

40:45
interest rate environment

40:47
you know if it's a lifetime income

40:49
product you know interest rates plus

40:50
secondary pricing roll you know

40:51
longevity and mortality credits you know

40:53
drive the train

40:55
and by the way your good friend moshe is

40:57
going to be on the podcast coming up in

40:59
may which we're looking looking forward

41:00
to that i just reread his book on

41:02
tontines if you don't know what that is

41:05
out there listeners

41:06
no no no in south it's ton tines that's

41:09
not gonna do ton teens come on man

41:12
um

41:13
but i read that and uh you know if

41:16
people don't know what that is pull it

41:17
up t-o-n-t-i-n-e-s it's pretty

41:19
interesting and so moshe milevsky will

41:21
be on our the fun with annuities podcast

41:23
gary which is uh

41:25
which is cool uh people don't know uh

41:28
you know the

41:29
kennex and and motion moleski have a

41:31
good relationship together have been

41:32
working together for a while he's

41:34
one of the smart guys in the room and

41:36
him gary get in the room no one else is

41:37
allowed in because there's no

41:39
there's no space left for anyone else's

41:41
brain

41:42
for god's sakes i mean that's how smart

41:44
they are i think i was just thinking

41:45
about you gary and in addition to you

41:47
just being

41:48
a really cool dude and very very smart

41:51
and transparent i want people to

41:53
understand

41:54
who's who's on with us

41:56
when you have when you choose a spea

41:58
mica dia culac

42:01
index annuity gary's behind most of

42:03
those sales i'd say he's behind 90

42:05
percent of those sales from the

42:06
standpoint of data

42:08
from the standpoint of the analysis of

42:10
the advisor agent or registered

42:12
investment advisor that's that's that's

42:14
recommending the annuity gary's

42:16
fingerprints on that and i just want to

42:18
let you know that's a good thing i mean

42:21
he's you know that what what he didn't

42:23
do if i was his agent is i would have

42:26
negotiated a penny or a nickel per

42:28
policy that he got paid on and then he

42:31
would have been

42:32
well we wouldn't be talking to him i

42:34
mean that's true but we but we don't um

42:37
i mean full disclosure we don't

42:39
we don't make our money based upon

42:41
assets or sales

42:42
we're switzerland we want to stay that

42:44
way you're you're the switzerland

42:47
of annuity you are i mean

42:49
and that's what we love about you i mean

42:51
we get you know the quote feeds that

42:53
that we we use with you are fantastic

42:55
and consistent and we really appreciate

42:59
that consistency i know it's easy for us

43:02
to say that but it's hard work for you

43:04
to deliver that

43:05
um and yeah and we do and we do

43:07
appreciate the services that you're

43:08
doing and the other thing i appreciate

43:10
with gary and i think when kenneth's

43:12
brought him in

43:13
i think gary was with ge a long time ago

43:15
and he's done he's done some stops at

43:17
some really high level places when they

43:19
brought him in i i doubt if they ever

43:21
could imagine

43:23
the business model that gary has adopted

43:26
at that time morphing into where it is

43:28
now to really

43:30
in a non-progressive industry being a

43:32
progressive part of the industry

43:35
that's me giving you kudos because what

43:36
you're doing now

43:38
is really interesting i think it's going

43:40
to continue to grow

43:41
as as the government continues to tell

43:44
people social security is not supposed

43:47
to be the the primary

43:49
um income source for you so

43:52
um what's the future for when in 2022

43:55
is canada just gonna continue to block

43:57
and tackle what they're doing have you

43:58
got new things on the horizon

44:01
um

44:02
well

44:03
you know we do also operate in canada

44:06
um that industry is right for innovation

44:09
we're starting to see

44:11
some of the signals coming out of that

44:13
market for maybe doing some some

44:15
additional things it's it's certainly

44:17
not as diverse and as intense and um

44:20
innovative of

44:22
you know what we have in the u.s but

44:24
um i i see uh

44:27
i see some um activity emerging in in

44:30
the canadian market uh unfortunately in

44:33
canada

44:34
they don't have the advantage of tax

44:35
deferral um that you would typically

44:38
have in the u.s for for

44:40
annuity contracts and um

44:43
and based upon certain financial

44:45
regulations

44:46
uh the insurance company is a little bit

44:48
uh humstrunk around uh income benefits

44:51
off of some of these you know savings

44:53
annuity contracts so

44:55
um so he's trying that a little bit when

44:57
you talk about the

44:59
oh yeah so you know the accounting rules

45:01
in canada are much different than uh but

45:04
your camera just went down move your

45:06
camera back up oh okay sorry let's see a

45:08
little bit

45:09
all right we want to see the full gary

45:10
baker not before no not half of them no

45:13
all of gary baker

45:16
yeah no so there are different

45:17
accounting uh rules and regulations in

45:20
canada which require the insurance

45:22
company to actually put more layers of

45:24
bubble wrap

45:26
around their balance sheet so they can

45:27
wait a minute you just did a you just

45:29
did a bowling analogy now you threw

45:31
bubble wrap at me yeah bubble wrap why

45:33
not and you are middle you are the the

45:35
god of middle america man they love i

45:37
don't know but i also confuse and

45:39
combine analogies too apparently so yeah

45:42
i mean you know i i like behind behind

45:44
the curtains or behind the covers i'm

45:46
sorry behind the covers

45:48
is the is the song that gary and i will

45:50
be writing after this it will be a

45:52
combination love song punk song right

45:54
gary where are we going to get the verse

45:56
i'll get the course

45:58
but you know get getting back to

46:00
to the

46:01
you know

46:03
canada you're saying that canadian

46:04
annuities have to the carriers have to

46:06
come up with a little bit more back-end

46:07
money and

46:09
which means less tail risk

46:12
right in the industry yeah so it becomes

46:15
economically not viable to provide

46:18
something of value

46:19
back out you can provide something out

46:21
but it's just not it's not going to be

46:22
close to what you can do with other

46:25
do you see that trend of additional

46:28
monies

46:29
needed for the tail to to tell risk

46:32
in english

46:33
okay tell risk would be

46:35
hey i bought this income rider and this

46:37
company sold all these income riders can

46:38
they pay the guarantees of that lifetime

46:40
income stream for all those income

46:42
riders if someone turn them all on

46:44
yeah that's the definition and if they

46:46
all lived in 1995 right i mean that's

46:49
the that's the north carolina where i'm

46:50
from originally southern definition of

46:53
tail risk

46:54
is

46:55
you know is is my friend chester the

46:57
mythical chester client of mine is walks

46:59
up to the actuary and go hey these

47:01
income riders

47:03
if everybody you got with an income

47:05
rider turned it on and lived 100 can you

47:08
boys back that up

47:10
that's tail risk right and chester speak

47:13
and by the way gary right now is in

47:15
god's country north carolina that's

47:16
where he is sitting

47:18
where we were just talking about

47:21
north carolina got snow which all that

47:23
means to you if you're not from north

47:24
carolina is there's no bread in the

47:26
store

47:28
people run to the store with snow buy

47:30
all the bread and i've always wondered

47:33
what happens to all that bread gary i

47:35
don't know apparently it goes north i

47:38
don't know

47:39
yeah it was definitely the sign of the

47:40
apocalypse last week because gary's

47:42
originally from pennsylvania i mentioned

47:44
penn state university he is a he is a

47:46
just a revered figure in the state of

47:48
pennsylvania and now he's down in in um

47:52
in north carolina and he's he's becoming

47:55
addicted to barbecue which is good

47:58
but the snow thing you just you

47:59
mentioned to me before the broadcast

48:02
hey stan do they not have

48:05
plows down here and my answer is yes

48:07
they do but they're on farms

48:10
oh right

48:11
yeah they're plowing the the field gary

48:14
they're not plowing the roads so my

48:18
bicycles

48:24
um as i always do gary um

48:27
i let you

48:29
the celebrity guest end this

48:32
with um advice insight words of wisdom

48:35
walk away drop the mic moment

48:38
go

48:41
boy i wasn't even prepared for that one

48:42
i know no one ever is

48:46
nothing that i could drop the mic on but

48:48
um

48:49
not just um look the the market's going

48:52
crazy right now um stock market and

48:55
yeah the stock market don't freak out

48:58
you know the only people that get hurt

48:59
on the roller coaster are the ones that

49:01
jump off just remember that

49:04
wow

49:05
there you go

49:06
you shouldn't i mean that's it to me but

49:08
between the roller coaster analogy

49:10
bubble wrap analogy

49:11
and the bowling alley analogy and your

49:13
song title

49:15
behind the covers

49:19
you've hit it out of the park but all

49:22
kidding aside gary we we love having you

49:24
on you are you know a

49:27
you're a treasure for the annuity

49:28
industry because you are what it's

49:30
supposed to be transparent honest

49:32
factual data-driven contract driven

49:35
and your company provides that for for

49:37
my company and so many others

49:40
um and he's he's behind pretty much

49:42
every annuity sale on the planet

49:45
which is good and and you should feel

49:47
comfortable with that we're just honored

49:48
to have him

49:49
as a guest so i want to thank everyone

49:52
for joining me on the number one annuity

49:53
podcast on the planet just happens to be

49:55
called fun with annuities i'm your host

49:57
stan the annuity man

49:58
and we will see you again next week

50:06
thanks for listening to fun with

50:08
annuities please hit the subscribe

50:10
button and make sure to go to my site

50:12
at the

50:13
annuityman.com where you can run your

50:15
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50:18
live feed of the best mega fix rates in

50:21
the country and even get indexed and

50:23
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50:26
also sign up for my six annuity owner's

50:28
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50:30
and under no obligation i also encourage

50:34
you to schedule a one-on-one call with

50:36
me stan the annuity man so we can have a

50:38
full discussion of your specific

50:41
situation it will be the best brutally

50:44
factual and truthful advice you will

50:46
ever get and that's one guarantee you

50:48
should definitely take advantage of so

50:50
join me next time for the number one

50:52
annuity podcast on the planet fun

50:56
with annuities

51:00
[Music]

51:11
you