093 John Lenz: What You Need to Know About Annuity Laddering in 2022

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can find out the brutal

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facts about annuities with no sales

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pitches or high pressure nonsense just

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the brutal and factual annuity truth

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which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

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host stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent license in all 50 states i

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am so glad to have a repeat guest

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on the program today by back by popular

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demand

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the annuity architect himself

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john

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lens johnny hello come back thank you

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it's good to have you now when i was

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thinking about the topic and you know we

1:04
discussed it and when john and i were on

1:06
calls and going over this because we

1:07
want this to be good for the listener

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out there and by the way

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welcome to all of the podcast listeners

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on all the major podcast platforms and

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also

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you uh people out there that are

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watching us on the fun with annuities

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youtube channel and you can see our

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facial expressions and how unbelievably

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chiseled good looks of john lennon's oh

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yeah unbelievable

1:29
but the the topic for today i was

1:31
thinking john was laddering your success

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wait laddering your way to fia success

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but that's not a cheesy you know but

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what we're going to talk about today

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is index our indexed annuities is

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indexed annuities and how

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john has come up with some very unique

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ways that i have implemented

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and give him full credit for because he

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introduced me to this which is

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laddering the index options internally

2:00
but before we go there mr lens

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let's talk about laddering in general as

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understood by most people

2:09
cd bonds etc can you give them the brief

2:12
overview and then we'll segue into how

2:13
annuities work

2:15
sure yeah i'd say when most people think

2:17
of uh the word ladder they think of

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something with sides and rungs on it

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that

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in ascending order and you start at the

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bottom and work your way up right and

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the uh

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that concept is used in the financial

2:32
world it has been for a long time by

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people who purchase bonds that have a

2:38
really short maturity maybe a year and

2:41
then they'll go longer to two or three

2:42
or four and out to 10 or even longer

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because historically the yield curve

2:47
gave people better interest more money

2:50
if they went longer

2:52
but then you have

2:54
you lose liquidity when you go long term

2:56
and you have more volatility

2:58
so a lot of people have implemented

3:00
these ladders where they'll put a

3:02
hundred thousand dollars in a money

3:04
market account and a hundred in a one

3:06
year two year three they'll work their

3:07
way out to a million dollars

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and then every time

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a year clicks by

3:13
their one year bond is mature and fully

3:16
liquid so they've always got liquidity

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and they're they take that liquidity and

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push it out to the 10th year creating a

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new 10th year rung

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so you've kind of got that escalator

3:27
ladder going on where you're always

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replacing the high rung with the liquid

3:31
money giving you better overall return

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and diversification so i think that's

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what people think of either using cds or

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bonds as a as a ladder for fixed income

3:44
yeah and and i tell people all the time

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with interest rates at these current

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levels at the time of this taping we

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kind of all know where they are

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some call them low i call them normal

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because they've been there for a while

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and hopefully they'll go up but no one

3:57
knows when they're going to go up and no

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one knows when they're going to either

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go up or down and that's the reason you

4:03
ladder so you're not trying to be master

4:05
of the universe and gordon gekko

4:07
and not trying to guess when things are

4:09
going to move and so you have to have

4:11
money coming due

4:13
all of the time so that you hopefully

4:15
can attach yourself

4:16
to a higher yield or in you know as a

4:19
bond coupon if it's bonds yield if it's

4:21
cds and obviously we do a ton

4:24
of laddering with migas which is the

4:26
annuity industry version

4:28
of a cd which is you know guaranteed

4:30
interest rates right now at the time of

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this taping the shortest duration that

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you can go is two years but a two three

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four and five year

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myga ladder is one of the more popular

4:40
things that we do

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um and with the five year being kind of

4:44
where the yield curve

4:46
analysis of where the you know where

4:48
does the buck stop you know where's the

4:51
where's the sweet spot it's kind of the

4:53
five year do you agree with that at the

4:54
current migrate level yeah i'd say

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that's right and industry numbers bear

4:59
that out that five years seems to be the

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sweet spot and i think it's a spot where

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an annuity owner feels like they haven't

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gone out too long

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where you know short-term interest rates

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and money market funds are as of today

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and whatever it is early uh spring late

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winter uh interest rates are

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under a half a percent the 10 years

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under two

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and uh annuity rates are between two and

5:26
three in that five-year space and you

5:27
could as you know you can get

5:29
three and change if you go to seven and

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chase ten years out but what i like

5:33
about the latter concept is it takes the

5:35
guesswork

5:37
out of you you know having a dream about

5:39
which way interest rates are going to go

5:41
you said it earlier we don't know which

5:43
way rates are going to go if you ask 100

5:45
people most of them today would say they

5:47
interest rates have got to go up but

5:48
they've been 100 people been saying that

5:50
for 10 years and interest rates

5:53
certainly could go up inflation

5:55
is rearing its head and i think most

5:57
people expect them to go up but if you

5:58
do a ladder

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and commit when that

6:02
bucket of money becomes liquid to push

6:04
it out to the long end of your ladder

6:06
you've got a plan and you're not saying

6:08
well maybe i think i want to reinvest

6:10
that one short you just keep pushing it

6:11
out to the end and you've talked at this

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constantly recycling

6:15
of

6:16
fixed income investments or annuities

6:18
to keep your ladder

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in good form

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let's pivot

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a little bit to the indexed annuity

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space now you and i are yeah i know we

6:28
look vibrant and young

6:30
but we have been around a while and we

6:32
remember the days

6:35
when index annuities were first

6:36
introduced in 1995 we were talking about

6:39
those those initial products from

6:41
keyport life you'll love this john i

6:43
initially i called it the other day on a

6:45
podcast keystone which is a beer

6:49
but it was keyport that actually came

6:51
out with it but yeah

6:54
you i consider you

6:56
a true expert on index annuities and and

6:59
when i have questions about indexed

7:01
annuities

7:02
i do go to john i call him the annuity

7:04
architect for fun but he truly is and um

7:07
you know he's when we sell indexed

7:10
annuities

7:11
a lot of times it's for the delivery

7:14
system they provide to the income writer

7:16
so the income writer is the goal it's

7:17
the guarantee is the future income and

7:19
the indexed annuities nothing more

7:21
than the delivery system and under that

7:24
goal if you say hey stan i want lifetime

7:26
income in the future i wanted to start

7:28
in seven or ten or nine or whatever

7:30
years

7:31
then the indexed annuity story from the

7:33
standpoint of accumulation is is

7:35
secondary

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and the lifetime income quote is primary

7:38
so you go to my site we have the only

7:41
income writer quotation

7:43
calculator in the business that shows

7:46
you

7:47
the carrier name and the guarantee and

7:49
you can run lump sum and or

7:51
reverse engineer quotes and that that

7:53
just launched at the time of this tape

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and it just launched so i encourage you

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to go to my site at the annuity man and

7:58
pull up the incoming calculator and have

8:00
at it

8:01
um it took a long time and a lot of

8:02
money to get there but we wanted the

8:04
consumer to be able to do that

8:06
but when people say you know what stan i

8:08
don't really need the income

8:10
but i want to look a little bit better

8:11
return than cds and or mygas

8:15
so stand the annuity man let's explore

8:18
indexed annuities i'd like for you to

8:20
kind of do a brief historical on indexed

8:23
annuities

8:24
and what you've seen from this time in

8:26
95 and up to this point and then we'll

8:28
start digging into the topic of

8:30
laddering these index annuities sure

8:34
well as i think we did talk about once

8:36
uh

8:37
and thanks for mentioning how old i am

8:39
and been at this a long time that i was

8:41
at the initial rollout meeting back on

8:43
the east coast

8:44
in 1995

8:46
when uh the i think the actual firm

8:49
genesis built this product for keyport

8:51
and lincoln benefit and keyboard rolled

8:53
out this this index annuity and i looked

8:56
at it i thought this is fantastic so i

8:58
literally bought the first one sold out

9:01
here in where i live now at washington

9:03
state

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and uh kept it for five years and the

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proposition

9:08
of index annuities then and the

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proposition

9:11
of index annuities now is the same

9:14
and that is you're going to give your

9:15
money to the insurance company you're

9:16
going to get a rate of return on the

9:18
upside that's tied to an equity index

9:21
such as the s p 500 or some proprietary

9:24
uh index that where the insurance

9:26
company collaborated with an investment

9:28
bank

9:29
that's the upside with some limitations

9:32
on performance

9:33
and on the downside you're gonna get

9:35
your money back with either zero return

9:38
or some nominal return

9:40
call it maybe one percent

9:42
so you you get some of the upside none

9:45
of the downside so unlike a multi-year

9:47
guarantee annuity that we were talking

9:49
about earlier where you might get two

9:51
and a half or three percent every year

9:52
for five years and that's it no more no

9:55
less

9:56
in an indexed annuity you're gonna get

9:58
let's say zero or one at the worst case

10:01
and maybe four or five on the upside and

10:04
historically over

10:06
you know what i've tracked these now for

10:09
gosh it's 22 plus those five in the 90s

10:11
27 years

10:13
and i'd say that the average return on

10:16
the index annuity has been one to two

10:18
percent higher

10:20
than the

10:22
equivalent

10:23
uh multi-year guarantee fixed rate so

10:26
people have benefited from taking that

10:28
extra risk right the risk of not getting

10:30
the minimum guarant or the high

10:31
guarantee

10:33
and and part of that those the stock

10:34
market has been pretty good uh since

10:36
then uh overall

10:40
yeah i

10:41
the

10:42
the proprietary indexes indices that are

10:45
being put out there that's one of the

10:48
initially i was a little concerned about

10:50
that i am still concerned when when

10:52
people show back tested

10:54
hypothetical return numbers if you owned

10:56
it 10 years ago that's a that's a common

10:58
practice in our industry which i totally

11:00
disagree with and i think you share

11:02
those same opinions

11:04
um because yeah i you gave a great

11:06
correlation about oh it's like watching

11:09
you say it's like watching give your

11:10
football correlation on that that was

11:12
good

11:13
oh well

11:15
i said it was a little bit like you and

11:17
i watch a football game together and

11:19
then we say hey if we do if we run this

11:21
defense when they line up like this then

11:24
we'll beat them and

11:25
the analogy is

11:27
com

11:28
insurance companies and football teams

11:30
now that we're talking about they don't

11:31
do the same thing every uh the same way

11:33
every week

11:34
so i think that many insurance companies

11:37
and their their collaborators and

11:38
investment banks went back in time and

11:40
said you know if we'd have done this

11:42
when interest rates did that and

11:44
volatility was like this we'd end up

11:46
with this great return

11:48
and of course the market doesn't repeat

11:50
itself and so the back testing came up

11:53
with a really nice marketing brochure

11:55
showing six and a half percent but in

11:58
reality those returns have been again

12:00
between one and two percent higher

12:02
uh average under some that have done

12:04
better some that have been worse but

12:05
i've owned one of those i told you about

12:07
that first policy in 1995 it had a 12

12:11
average rate of return for the next five

12:13
years

12:14
uh

12:15
and of course uh that was an anomaly the

12:17
market was really good then

12:19
but now today interest rates have come

12:21
down

12:22
and the s p 500 index is still the

12:25
primary index that insurance companies

12:28
use when they create these these uh

12:30
formulas

12:32
and because what they're doing is buying

12:34
options on the upside of the s p 500

12:37
they've got to take some of that annuity

12:39
money or some of the interest earned on

12:41
the annuity deposit

12:42
and

12:43
they call it the options budget and then

12:46
go out into the market and purchase some

12:48
call options so that they can capture

12:50
the first three four five percent of the

12:53
upside of the s p

12:55
if they're wrong and the market goes

12:56
down all they've done is lost that

12:58
options money they've still got your

13:00
principal sitting there in a bucket

13:01
because they've promised to return that

13:03
to you after five or seven years so the

13:06
proprietary index which is i know the

13:08
question that you asked

13:10
is in a collaboration with a big

13:11
investment bank and you know if you

13:13
think about big investment banks or

13:15
names like morgan stanley or jp morgan

13:18
or goldman sachs and and the list goes

13:20
on

13:21
they've collaborated with big uh dozen

13:25
dozens of insurance companies

13:28
and created these proprietary indexes

13:31
where they've gone back in time and

13:33
created

13:34
an algorithm that gets hardwired into

13:37
the annuity that says

13:39
based on this set of facts we're going

13:41
to invest

13:42
assets in options in growth or

13:45
international or small cap or a large

13:47
gap or bonds and then that interest rate

13:50
gets credited

13:52
to the insurance companies annuity

13:55
then that's the back testing right

13:56
because those things didn't really exist

13:58
you can go back in time and say hey the

14:00
s p 500 has done x for the last 10 years

14:02
15 years 20 years 50 years but these

14:05
proprietary indexes some of them are

14:07
only a few years old but their

14:09
constituent parts are much older and so

14:12
that's what the back testing is all

14:13
about right they can say well yeah this

14:16
index didn't exist but

14:18
the s p 500 and bonds and international

14:21
equities those indexes existed

14:24
and our proprietary index is

14:27
a sum of those parts

14:30
so so let's let's talk about laddering

14:33
and there's there's many types to ladder

14:35
indexed annuities you could ladder the

14:37
surrender charges in other words you

14:38
could say okay i want a five-year

14:40
surrender charge index annuity a seven

14:42
year surrender charge index annuity and

14:45
a ten-year surrender charge indexed

14:47
annuity you could do that

14:49
um you could you could ladder

14:52
um and this is what we're going to dig

14:54
into a little bit more but you can

14:55
ladder the index option length and index

14:58
options can be one year or two year or

15:02
three years so you could you could uh

15:04
you could ladder those with three

15:05
different companies you could do a

15:06
combination be fancy and and latter not

15:10
only surrender charges but the index

15:12
options internally

15:14
and then there's finally one way that

15:16
you recently have shown me which i

15:18
really really like it's with one of the

15:20
most

15:21
it's the highest rated firm that that

15:23
offers index and news won't mention

15:25
names because that's not what we do

15:27
but they they allow you to

15:29
ladder they have one year two year and

15:32
three year options

15:34
of which you can take one indexed

15:36
annuity with a really strong company

15:39
and do an internal

15:42
ladder of those index options but before

15:43
we go into that i wanted to get to that

15:46
because people are that's why they're

15:47
they're talk they're they're listening

15:48
to us

15:49
but let's go backwards just a little bit

15:51
and talk about why there are

15:54
one year two year and three year options

15:57
and historically how those have

15:59
performed since you have been watching

16:01
for so long mr lens sure well

16:05
the longer

16:07
that you measure the equity markets the

16:09
more

16:10
likelihood the higher probability that

16:12
you're going to have a predictably

16:14
higher rate of return

16:16
so if you look at a one year in the

16:18
stock market it could be up 30 or down

16:20
30. if you look at it over a two-year

16:22
period or a three-year period all of a

16:25
sudden that range starts getting smaller

16:27
and smaller and the chance of you losing

16:30
in that longer period of time goes down

16:32
down down until it's non-existent i mean

16:34
there is no 50-year period in the

16:36
history of the stock market where a

16:38
person lost money in the s p 500.

16:41
there may not be any 25-year periods

16:43
there are very few 10-year periods and a

16:46
few five-year periods and all kinds of

16:48
one and two-year periods so when an

16:50
insurance company can go out into the

16:52
market and purchase options on a one

16:55
year they're they're more expensive than

16:57
a two year or three year

16:59
so if and the same thing is true in

17:01
these proprietary indexes created by the

17:04
collaborative

17:05
banks the investment banks so if you'll

17:08
allow them to work their magic for three

17:11
years instead of two or two years

17:13
instead of one

17:14
they can offer a higher rate of return

17:17
on the two in the three year

17:19
now that said you might have a one year

17:21
that's got a really good return only to

17:22
give it back in the years two and three

17:25
so what you and i have been talking

17:26
about is to take this under one umbrella

17:29
with one insurance company

17:30
that has collaborated with two very

17:33
well-known investment banks that have

17:35
both built one two and three year

17:38
proprietary options

17:40
and an s p option for one year and a

17:43
fixed bucket where you get a fixed rate

17:44
of return so now you can allocate your

17:47
money under one umbrella

17:49
in

17:50
one two three

17:52
and then every time that one year comes

17:54
due you move it out to the three so

17:56
you've always got one two three one two

17:58
three and every time the

18:00
option comes to the end of its period it

18:03
locks in those gains

18:05
assuming there are gains

18:07
those gains can never be taken back

18:08
unlike if you buy a mutual fund then

18:10
it's up ten percent this year and down

18:12
ten percent next year you just gave back

18:14
everything you earned in year one

18:16
in an index annuity if you get a let's

18:18
say a five percent gain in year one and

18:21
in year two it goes down five you still

18:23
got the entire five from year one

18:26
and that's that's really one of the

18:27
strongest reasons to own an index

18:30
annuity uh as a fixed component in a

18:33
portfolio like this you just don't ever

18:34
give up your gains

18:37
the majority of end index annuities sold

18:40
out there i would assume

18:42
are sold with the one year call option

18:45
am i right about that

18:46
yeah absolutely first of all most of the

18:49
index index indexes indices that were

18:53
created

18:54
were on a one-year

18:55
basis

18:56
but there's plenty of ones twos and

18:58
threes

18:59
uh i think

19:01
consumers in general

19:03
understand that at the end of each year

19:05
they have a one-year option that they've

19:07
captured that interest and it's now

19:09
locked into their account and the

19:11
insurance industry has realized that a

19:13
lot of consumers

19:15
just want to understand this and at the

19:17
end of the year they've made some money

19:18
and it's locked in

19:20
if you have a two-year index and it's up

19:22
five percent

19:23
you've still got to wait another year to

19:25
capture that plus the next gain and

19:27
sometimes that can be a little bit

19:28
confusing

19:30
um but

19:31
overall

19:32
you you're going to get a better value

19:34
by taking some of the two-year and even

19:37
more value if you take the three-year

19:38
option

19:40
you know as as you know john and most

19:42
people that know me that i'm a little

19:44
bit of a contrarian so about my life in

19:47
general

19:49
and i'm certainly a contrarian when it

19:51
comes to indexed annuities and you know

19:53
we have

19:54
we we sell a bunch i don't hate them i

19:56
just hate how they're promoted and sold

20:00
one of the things that people need to

20:02
realize with say these s p index

20:05
options

20:06
these do not include dividends and

20:08
historically

20:10
with the s p return if you just look at

20:12
it and depending on who where you're

20:14
marking it and who's talking

20:16
some people say 54 some people say 50 of

20:19
the returns or dividends but let's just

20:20
say a lot

20:22
of the historical return on a typical s

20:25
p

20:26
500 mutual fund etf

20:28
is dividend-based is that correct

20:32
yeah that's again depending on how you

20:34
you actually calculate the number if you

20:36
if you if you said oh the his the s p

20:39
500 over a 30 year period is averaged 10

20:43
generally that would be thought of as

20:44
including the dividend that would be the

20:46
total return of the s p and in that

20:48
period of time the typical dividend

20:51
yield on that out of that 10 might have

20:53
been one and a half or two percent of

20:54
the 10

20:55
is represented by the dividend so if you

20:58
just took a look at the index that 10

21:00
really might be an eight

21:03
but if you took a a hundred thousand

21:05
dollars thirty years ago and compounded

21:07
at eight and took another hundred and

21:09
compounded at ten

21:10
the ten is twice as much as the eight

21:12
therefore you go to this fifty percent

21:14
return so it's a little challenging but

21:16
yeah the main it's it's a lot less of

21:19
the s p 500 total return comes from

21:22
dividend

21:24
but with indexed annuities we're not

21:25
talking dividends attached um you know

21:29
with index annuities and people can go

21:31
to my site and i've written a book which

21:32
by the way

21:34
john was nice enough to edit once i

21:36
wrote it

21:37
which was on the the indexed annuity

21:39
owner's manual and we talked about

21:42
spreads and caps and and and our

21:44
participation rates which are the

21:46
limitations on the upside

21:49
but you have you know with this one

21:51
company that does the um

21:53
the the one two and three year

21:55
internally and they're very very strong

21:58
you like the ones that

22:00
have you know a participation rate of

22:02
over a hundred percent can you explain

22:05
that because i thought that 100 was just

22:07
100

22:09
yeah

22:10
right i think as as of this taping maybe

22:13
the three year from one of the

22:14
investment banks is actually at 100

22:17
but it has been historically 110 or 120.

22:21
okay so the um

22:23
and i'm not sure i can't explain that

22:25
fully uh without an actuary backing me

22:28
up but these again these these indexes

22:31
uh are created by the bank

22:34
and there's a depending on where

22:36
interest rates are in the market and how

22:38
volatile the market is measured by one

22:41
measurement is the fixed volatility

22:43
index

22:44
let's say this option was priced at one

22:47
and you had some money to buy it well

22:49
you can actually buy 110 of that one

22:53
and so yes there are times where we've

22:55
had people get a higher return than 100

22:59
percent of the index most the time

23:00
that's not the case

23:02
and today

23:04
a typical s p 500 index is going to be

23:07
25 to 35 percent

23:09
of the s p index is what you'd be able

23:12
to get in a fixed annuity i mean

23:13
remember

23:14
uh two things i think are important to

23:16
remember first of all

23:18
an insurance company has a limited

23:20
amount of money in your annuity to go

23:22
out and buy these options they call it

23:23
the options budget and it depends on how

23:26
much actual interest they can earn on

23:28
that money so they take some of that

23:31
interest and they go out into the market

23:33
and they purchase these options right

23:36
they don't purchase a hundred percent of

23:38
the upside of the market

23:40
give it to you and and

23:42
agree to absorb all the losses

23:45
i mean they cannot invest your clients

23:48
index annuity money

23:49
in the stock market because there's too

23:51
much risk they have to guarantee all

23:53
your money back plus maybe a nominal

23:54
interest rate at the end of five seven

23:56
ten years

23:57
so the uh

23:58
the companies have come out and said

24:00
we're going to limit your upside to what

24:02
we can purchase which is let's say today

24:04
four or five percent or

24:06
if you'd rather have

24:08
25 or 30 or 35 percent of the upside

24:12
then we'll give you that option as well

24:14
now in a like a big year of 20

24:17
you'd rather have thirty percent of that

24:20
than four percent playing say in a cap

24:23
good news is companies understand they

24:25
don't know which which way the market's

24:26
going to go next year so you could say

24:28
i'll take half my money with a five cap

24:31
and half of it at 35 participation

24:34
so you can diversify uh and it's kind of

24:37
a coin toss to us

24:39
and what people need to understand is

24:41
when the index option

24:43
you know comes due in other words you

24:45
buy one year or two year after those

24:47
time periods you can then change your

24:50
choice you're not locked into the choice

24:52
you can and most of these products have

24:55
multiple choices that

24:56
that we help you decipher because

24:59
otherwise you're just throwing a dart at

25:01
it

25:02
and like i said if you're if you're

25:03
talking about accumulation

25:06
with indexed annuities not an income

25:07
rider once again if you say standard

25:09
need income in the future then the

25:10
indexed annuity is nothing more

25:12
to us than the delivery system for that

25:15
the highest income rider guarantee but

25:16
once you say hey stan

25:18
we're talking accumulation here

25:20
and i'm mature enough to understand it's

25:23
not market upside with no downside which

25:25
is the pitch at the bad chicken dinner

25:27
expensive steak dinner seminar and

25:29
you're grown up

25:30
then we can now talk about these

25:34
index options

25:36
and how we ladder them you know and most

25:38
people don't even look at it like that

25:39
most agents aren't i don't think have

25:41
the training or background to to go into

25:44
it and dig into it to that i give i give

25:46
the credit to john because he was you

25:48
know i made a recent trip to portland

25:52
and we were sitting at a very expensive

25:54
steakhouse of which i'd like to go to

25:56
and he was talking about this uh

25:59
strategy and it just really piqued my

26:00
interest because i've been looking for

26:04
it's not a killer application but i've

26:05
been looking for something that made

26:08
sense to me mathematically

26:11
because annuities are math and john is a

26:13
math geek like i am

26:15
and this is kind this is what he was

26:17
talking about one of the things that i

26:19
laughed and almost spit out the perrier

26:22
at the table was he used a word called

26:24
hybridize h-y-b-r-i-d-i-z-e

26:28
by the way that's not a word it's a word

26:31
that john made up and anytime anyone

26:33
uses hybrid when it's indexed annuities

26:35
i go crazy because i always say hybrid's

26:37
a car hybrid's a plant hybrid can even

26:39
be a mattress

26:42
but when people use it to

26:44
sell indexed annuities

26:45
they're they're selling it under the

26:47
auspices that it's too good to be true

26:49
because it's hybrid and just it can

26:51
change colors it can change and morph

26:54
what do you mean by hybridized john

26:56
[Music]

26:58
was that perrier that you almost spit up

27:00
i think it was perrier

27:03
i do not drink that i do not drink the

27:05
funny water john i think of hybrid as

27:09
sort of a generic term to describe the

27:11
cross

27:12
um

27:13
melding of features and so if if i used

27:16
the word hybridized or hybridized with

27:18
you i would have been trying to say

27:21
we're bringing in the features the best

27:23
features of a fixed annuity which is

27:25
what a predictable return with a

27:26
guaranteed return of principal

27:28
some nominal interest rate

27:30
and then the the features of the

27:32
variable annuity uh piece of the of the

27:35
market which gives upside growth and

27:37
they've brought those things together

27:39
into the index annuity i could strike

27:42
the word hybridized from my vocabulary

27:44
going forward possibly i really like

27:46
that i'm just glad you didn't use

27:48
hybridized

27:50
and the phrase cross pollination at the

27:52
same time i would have had to just go

27:54
okay i'm out i have no idea what he's

27:57
talking about because now you're getting

27:58
now you now you're sounding too smart um

28:01
but i understand what you're saying and

28:03
i think that uh when you strip down

28:05
indexed annuities which we do

28:07
done bunches of videos on them and the

28:08
reason i'm having you on is you are the

28:10
annuity whisperer for goodness sakes you

28:12
can

28:13
really really break this stuff down to

28:14
where people can grasp onto it

28:17
i do think that there are good features

28:21
um that are attached that that do

28:23
combine other annuity types the other

28:25
thing that i want people to understand

28:27
is

28:28
let's just say you said okay stan the

28:30
annuity man america's annuity agent i do

28:32
not need lifetime income we want

28:34
accumulation from this

28:36
indexed annuity strategy whether you're

28:38
going to ladder multiple carriers or

28:40
ladder index options with multiple

28:41
carriers or ladder index options with

28:44
um ladder surrender charge or ladder

28:46
index options with one carrier and we'll

28:48
we'll discuss it all go to my site

28:50
schedule call with me we'll have a we'll

28:52
have this kind of a conversation

28:55
about it but what i wanted to to get to

28:57
john is i i have i've come up with a

28:59
phrase phrase called defer to spea

29:03
i have a tattooed on the back of my leg

29:05
no i really don't but i should and and

29:07
what i'm trying to say in a very long

29:09
way

29:10
is you can take this indexed annuity

29:12
strategy that doesn't have an income

29:14
rider but at the time you might need

29:16
income or things changed down the road

29:19
we can always either

29:21
get the immediate annuity quote from the

29:23
carrier or quote all immediate annuities

29:25
and transfer the index annuity to the

29:28
highest paying

29:29
immediate annuity what is your what's

29:32
your take on the deferred aspia as

29:34
compared to

29:35
attaching that income writer strategy

29:38
john lens i love that question uh that's

29:42
a question that

29:43
i've thought long and hard about as we

29:45
do analysis for people who

29:48
come to us and say hey i want income

29:51
i think in five years i'm 65 i on retire

29:53
at 70.

29:54
you know my wife's the same age

29:57
you know what can you do for us in terms

29:59
of guarantees

30:01
and so we think about immediate

30:03
annuities or the dia right you've talked

30:05
about before or you put it in now and

30:06
and turn it on turn the income on later

30:09
but i i love uh comparing the uh index

30:13
annuity with a writer or a fixed annuity

30:15
with a writer which you put your money

30:17
in you your income writer account grows

30:19
and then you decide in the fifth year if

30:21
you want to turn it on or wait another

30:23
year right

30:25
alternatively you buy a fixed a

30:28
multi-year guarantee annuity and end up

30:29
with three percent for five years or you

30:31
buy one of these five-year fixed index

30:34
annuities and maybe you get three four

30:35
five percent of one two three four five

30:38
percent

30:39
and now you say i want to turn this into

30:41
income

30:42
so instead of having paid a writer

30:44
premium each year to get this writer you

30:47
now would have this larger bucket of

30:49
money that you could go out into the

30:51
market and you have on your site you can

30:53
go out there and quote

30:55
the entire marketplace of immediate

30:57
annuities for now a person age 70

31:01
and then transfer the funds to whoever

31:03
will pay the most i love that idea

31:06
i think from a flexibility standpoint

31:08
that's wonderful

31:09
the downside is that if

31:12
uh mortality trends and i mean

31:15
historical mortality trends are that

31:17
we're living a little bit longer

31:20
if five years from now mortality trends

31:22
continued in our life expectancies

31:24
longer that's a little hurtful to pay

31:27
out rates for insurance companies

31:28
because on average they've got to pay

31:30
longer

31:32
the last two years have seen mortality

31:35
decreases due to pandemic worldwide

31:39
hopefully that's not going to last much

31:40
longer

31:42
now i will say that five years from now

31:45
if you had to point a gun in my head and

31:47
said john tell me whether you believe

31:49
interest rates are going to be

31:50
lower the same or higher i'd say okay if

31:53
i have to guess i'll guess higher

31:56
that's going to inform higher payout

31:58
rates for people who annuitize in five

32:00
years so i like this strategy i would

32:02
just say that you give up some guarantee

32:06
because you're not sure what the payout

32:07
factor is going to be

32:09
uh five years from now

32:11
i agree with that and you know what i

32:14
want all of my clients to do is is be

32:16
analytical with me because there's no

32:19
perfect answers just bad sales pitches

32:21
of which we don't do

32:22
there's no pound the table perfect way

32:24
to do it for people that want income

32:26
riders

32:28
it's great because for a future planner

32:30
check box checkers what i call them john

32:33
you know to the penny what that income

32:34
stream is going to be in the future

32:36
regardless of how long that future is

32:37
seven years nine years ten years and a

32:39
lot of people want that also

32:41
if you want to lock in those mortality

32:43
credits current

32:45
then you're going to do that with an

32:47
income rider now you are going to pay an

32:49
annual fee that comes out of that

32:50
accumulation value not the income rider

32:52
value which i always kind of joke john

32:54
hey annuity companies have the big

32:56
buildings for a reason right um and the

32:58
other thing is

33:00
when you attach an income rider to an

33:02
index annuity i tell people this all the

33:04
time when they say stan forget the index

33:06
annuity i just want the writer i want

33:07
the guarantee great

33:09
but

33:11
when you and i explain it like this if

33:13
you draw a line down a blank sheet of

33:15
paper left-hand side the index option

33:16
side of the index annuity right-hand

33:18
side is the end income rider side

33:20
just about

33:22
99.999

33:24
of the time the income rider side

33:26
will be higher why is that stan the

33:29
annuity man well

33:31
the annuity company wants you to keep

33:33
your money and the only way to access

33:34
that income right or benefit is to turn

33:36
on an income stream you can't cash it in

33:38
or anything like that and a lot of the

33:40
upfront bonus which i call candy for the

33:42
stupid a lot of the upfront bonus stuff

33:45
which is just another part of the

33:46
contractual guarantee is applied to the

33:49
income writer so we're not putting down

33:51
income writers what i want people to

33:53
realize is

33:54
if you come to me and say hey let's talk

33:56
about accumulation stan

33:59
you're not totally voiding the income

34:01
thought

34:02
you're not getting rid of the income

34:04
guarantee what you're doing is saying

34:06
i'm not sure i need it now but if i do

34:08
in the future then let's go shop

34:09
immediate annuities at that time that we

34:12
need income we're at the

34:14
end of the surrender charge time period

34:16
and

34:17
and i i think that is a gem of a

34:22
of a strategy that just people need to

34:23
put in the back of their head it's in

34:25
all my books defer to speed of

34:26
photosphere defer to spea but this this

34:29
um when we're talking about laddering

34:31
index options

34:32
we have to throw in that at the end of

34:34
that time period we can always go shop

34:37
speeds and do a

34:38
1035 transfer from the indexed annuity

34:41
to the

34:42
to the immediate annuity that's a

34:44
non-taxable event

34:46
or if it's ira money or roth ira money

34:49
traditional ira money it's a obviously

34:51
non-taxable event going to

34:53
the spea

34:54
so

34:56
um

34:57
if you're tsar for the day john how do

34:59
you promote that better

35:02
you know i'd say you did a pretty nice

35:04
explanation of it there and i would add

35:06
one thing to it uh because i know that's

35:08
why you have me around absolutely it's

35:11
the pen and teller show and i'm a little

35:12
more like teller but i'll tell you what

35:14
i think is uh well you're a big tall guy

35:18
you know like ben gillette but

35:20
um

35:21
not everybody who buys an annuity at 65

35:24
and gets to 70 finds themselves

35:26
expecting to live to 100.

35:28
there's a period of a group of people in

35:30
that

35:31
that group that have their first heart

35:33
attack or find their first lump

35:35
and now all of a sudden wait a minute

35:37
wait wait stop did you say find your

35:40
first lump

35:41
well in your throat

35:43
whatever breast

35:45
uh we're talking i'm trying to be a

35:47
sweet subtle cancer analogy here but

35:51
let's say that people

35:52
oxidize during between 65 and 70

35:56
and all of a sudden lifetime income is

35:59
not something that makes sense because

36:01
as you know in order to beat the

36:03
insurance companies at their own game

36:04
you need to be recommending lifetime

36:07
payouts through annuitization especially

36:10
for people who are going to live out

36:11
there to their late 80s 90s and beyond

36:13
that's where you beat the insurance

36:15
company

36:16
if you are

36:17
uh have a short life expectancy the last

36:19
thing you would do is give your money to

36:21
an insurance company and tell them we

36:22
want payments for life and you get to

36:24
keep the rest

36:25
through annuitization right so

36:28
what i would say is that the defer and

36:31
annuitized later strategy offers a level

36:33
of flexibility that lets you decide

36:37
number one when you want to turn the

36:38
income on you might say you know i was

36:41
going to wait till 70 to take my social

36:43
security but i might take it at 68 and

36:44
annuitize this annuity you sold me and

36:47
start now or you get to 70 and somebody

36:49
says

36:51
you know what i i want to wait another

36:52
couple years and get a new bump up in

36:54
rider and a new bump up in an uh factor

36:58
and get more money or the third they

37:01
found that lump and they're saying yeah

37:02
i'm not going to turn on a lifetime

37:04
writer i want to take withdrawals over

37:06
what i think maybe my life expectancy of

37:08
the next 10 years and leave the rest of

37:10
my wife or spouse or kids so i like the

37:12
flexibility aspect of your idea

37:16
um

37:16
and for the fee conscious person out

37:18
there everyone's feet conscious you

37:20
should be

37:21
you know all commissions that are paid

37:22
to an agent like myself are built in to

37:25
the product it's a net transaction to

37:27
you yes we do get paid if you want to

37:28
know i'll tell you what it is

37:30
um i have no problem with that but if

37:33
you're fee conscious and you still want

37:35
a lifetime income stream going back to

37:36
the deferred spea you buy the index

37:38
annuity without the rider there's no

37:40
annual fees

37:41
and then you transfer to the immediate

37:43
annuity there's no annual fees you can

37:45
literally

37:47
take strip the fees out

37:49
of the whole thing

37:51
if you want to do it that way and i

37:52
think that um just people i would say

37:55
the majority of index annuities sold you

37:57
might know this stat are sold with

37:59
income writers even though people might

38:01
not need them

38:03
and i'm not saying and a lot of people

38:05
say well i need future income we we run

38:07
that analysis okay does the income

38:09
writer make sense do you know want to

38:10
know to the penny what it is and pay

38:12
that annual fee for the life of the

38:14
policy as long as you're breathing or do

38:15
you want to

38:17
just strip that out and then

38:19
and then ladder these these index

38:21
options

38:22
and then at the time we you know you

38:24
need

38:25
lifetime income stream and you might not

38:28
uh then then we transfer to immediate

38:30
annuity the other thing too if you buy

38:32
the indexed annuity under the laddering

38:34
strategy john has

38:35
has been talking about

38:37
um at the end of the duration

38:39
if you want your money back we can send

38:40
the money back right

38:42
i mean it's people have this thing we'll

38:45
level give the money the annuity company

38:46
they're going to get to keep it no no no

38:48
you're with the index annuity laddering

38:51
strategy whichever ladder you choose

38:54
laddering surrender charges

38:56
laddering index options or laddering

38:58
index options within one carrier you can

39:00
do multiple carriers whatever and that's

39:02
that's the conversation we have

39:04
um you're in control of that asset

39:07
and i think i think that's lost

39:09
in the messaging of of all of this where

39:12
do you see indexed annuities going john

39:14
are we going to have the crypto indexed

39:15
annuity soon

39:18
i kind of hope so because i've got a

39:20
little bit of crypto and if it was if it

39:22
was well enough received by the

39:24
insurance industry maybe more people

39:26
would would own some and i could my fear

39:28
of missing out would be rewarded

39:31
uh but i think index annuities uh

39:33
they're

39:34
looked at closely by regulators yes so

39:37
you know there's lots of disclosure uh

39:39
there's lots of innovation what we're

39:41
seeing now is in the registered

39:45
sector

39:46
where now companies are willing to

39:48
expand the range of expectation like hey

39:51
instead of giving you a five cap and a

39:52
full return

39:54
we'll give you a 10 cap if you'll eat

39:56
the first 10 loss right that's not those

39:58
that haven't been around for a while but

40:00
uh it feels like the range of

40:02
expectation is broadening

40:05
um the other thing that i think is worth

40:07
mentioning stan is that this isn't an

40:09
all-or-nothing strategy you don't have

40:11
to say gosh do i have to pick between an

40:13
income rider or defer and maybe think

40:15
about annuitizing later

40:18
you can ladder that concept too and put

40:20
half your money in something with a

40:21
writer that covers base level forever

40:23
and then make a decision on what to do

40:25
with the other piece

40:26
so people i think sometimes think that

40:29
oh i got to choose between the two

40:31
and since neither you and i despite the

40:33
fact that nostradamus is in our our

40:36
family tree

40:38
we do not know which one of those

40:40
strategies is going to work out the best

40:42
because we can't see five years into the

40:44
future to know where interest rates will

40:47
be at that time

40:48
so i personally have three annuities and

40:51
one of them using the

40:53
defer and annuitize maybe at some day in

40:55
the future and then i have a product

40:56
with an income writer on it

40:59
i think that's a great idea about about

41:02
splitting the baby as they say

41:05
you know having having an income rider

41:06
with half a tested index annuity that's

41:08
a commodity quote by the way once you

41:10
once you go there then we quote income

41:12
rotors and then having the strategy for

41:15
accumulation and then maybe annuitizing

41:17
it at the back end what people also need

41:19
to understand

41:20
when you choose the defer to spea

41:23
and you get to the end and you say you

41:25
know what stan the annuity man we have

41:27
decided we want income from this indexed

41:29
annuity that doesn't have a rider

41:31
we're going to

41:33
by by law you have to do this we're

41:34
going to have an annuitization quote

41:36
from the carrier it's currently with

41:38
that index annuity carrier if they offer

41:40
that

41:40
and then we're going to quote every

41:42
single carrier out there that has um an

41:45
immediate annuity offering and then

41:47
guess what you get to choose the higher

41:49
the two

41:50
and

41:50
that is called annuity fiduciary you

41:53
know and i laugh about fiduciary all the

41:55
time because if you're in the financial

41:57
business you should be a fiduciary okay

41:59
you mean

42:00
by by just by

42:02
you being in the game you should be

42:04
there i snorted halfway through that

42:06
well you did you did say something

42:07
pardon me for interrupting that i think

42:09
is it's it's meaningful that sometimes

42:12
the insurance company that does the very

42:14
best job accumulating your money over

42:16
time is not the same company that has

42:18
the best payout over time

42:20
they may have really good accumulation

42:23
concepts options

42:25
and a good value proposition that way

42:28
but they might think you're going to

42:30
live a very long time and therefore

42:32
offer a bit of a lower payout

42:34
whereas in other companies like now we

42:37
think people are not their life

42:38
expectancies haven't improved over time

42:41
so yeah you've got to

42:43
look around and of course then

42:45
own an insurance policy that has a

42:47
finite number of penalty years

42:49
so that you can end that and look

42:51
without any kind of fee issues

42:55
tell me john about the surrender charges

42:57
i know that you you surprised me a

42:59
little bit that you said that you had

43:00
located a three-year indexed annuity

43:03
surrender charge but typically three

43:05
five seven nine and ten is that

43:08
typically where they're at

43:10
um but i would assume that the three

43:12
year the three year myga is going to be

43:13
really competitive with that

43:16
as well from well

43:18
again

43:19
this is a yield curve issue and the

43:20
yield curve right that's uh you start

43:22
down here at the very bottom with a

43:24
money market return fed funds rate under

43:26
one percent and you work your way up to

43:29
5 10

43:30
20 beyond

43:32
and historically the longer you were

43:34
willing to invest the higher rate you

43:35
get therefore at a traditional yield

43:37
curve it's not always that way but when

43:40
an insurance company is going to do a

43:42
three-year deal with you they know

43:44
they're they're likely to only keep your

43:45
money for three years

43:47
and so the proposition the the option

43:51
value

43:52
return that you're likely to get is

43:55
likely to be less than if you said keep

43:57
my money for five years seven years ten

43:59
years

44:00
so the um

44:01
and that's the same way as you said

44:03
earlier with micah a good myga today for

44:05
three years might be two percent and a

44:07
good mic up for five years might be

44:08
three percent at the time of this typing

44:10
absolutely people watching it ten years

44:12
from now don't jump off the cliff just

44:14
look at the date look at look at the

44:16
date of this um

44:17
john cover what's called renewal rates

44:20
uh and why that's important for people

44:23
when they're looking for this index

44:24
annuity accumulation strategy why it's

44:27
important for those renewal rate the

44:29
renewal rate history of that issuing

44:30
carrier to be fair to the consumer

44:35
boy that is there are so many different

44:38
thoughts i have about that but uh i'll

44:40
start with this that you know an

44:42
insurance company in order to get you to

44:44
send your initial deposit to them it's

44:46
got to be competitive with their peer

44:48
group so as the time of this taping if

44:51
you wanted to buy a five-year multi-year

44:53
guarantee annuity three percent's a very

44:55
very competitive number and with most

44:57
companies less than that

45:00
now the five years goes by and let's

45:02
just say interest rates stayed exactly

45:04
the same

45:06
in the economy

45:07
most advisors and i'd say most consumers

45:10
would hope that the insurance company

45:12
would simply give them another term of

45:15
uh

45:16
renew the interest rate at three percent

45:19
but remember the reason the insurance

45:20
company was able to renew or offer that

45:23
three percent for five years is that

45:25
they put a penalty on your policy that

45:28
they're going to

45:28
charge you to leave early for the next

45:30
five years

45:32
when the five years comes up and if your

45:34
money's fully liquid

45:37
they can't invest your money for a new

45:39
five-year term they've got to keep it

45:40
liquid

45:41
in what today would be a really low

45:43
interest rate environment so typically

45:46
on

45:47
policy renewal

45:49
insurance companies reduce

45:51
interest rates for renewal now

45:54
it could be an economic issue or it

45:56
could be which is also an economic issue

45:58
a profitability issue to the insurance

46:00
company right so

46:02
as you

46:03
do and as we do when that when the

46:05
annuity reaches the end of its surrender

46:07
charge period we want the insurance

46:09
company to have some level of integrity

46:11
in their renewal and if they don't offer

46:14
that then we have a

46:17
you use the word fiduciary uh

46:20
an obligation to the client to go out

46:22
and say hey you're renewing it one

46:24
percent here with this good company and

46:26
yep your money is liquid but you could

46:28
get another three percent for five years

46:30
and let the consumer make a choice and

46:32
that same thing holds true with index

46:35
options as well

46:37
companies have to go out into the market

46:38
and buy these options every year two

46:40
years three years whatever it is

46:42
interest rates impact the price

46:45
and the volatility of the equity index

46:48
uh impacts the price so there are there

46:50
are some moving parts in these products

46:54
is it fair to say that

46:56
and you you're i mean i look at you as

46:59
as truly the svengali of this for me um

47:03
and and i'm glad that you're on this

47:04
program because people are getting your

47:05
brain as well you know that

47:07
for the listener and viewer i don't

47:09
think you understand

47:11
the his experience you're tapping into

47:13
here it's fantastic there's so many

47:15
indexed annuity offers offerings out

47:17
there is it fair to say john that

47:18
there's just a handful that

47:21
from an accumulation

47:23
you know offering and and for lack of a

47:25
better phrase story that you like

47:29
uh there's definitely a annuities that i

47:32
would purchase myself

47:34
sell my loved ones recommend to advisors

47:37
that trust my advice

47:40
and i yeah i think that there are some

47:43
that i prefer uh better than others stan

47:45
but it's a good way to me

47:47
i would i would also caveat that the

47:49
people who are at insurance companies

47:51
today setting renewal rate practices and

47:54
the direction of the company and the

47:56
ownership of the company you know that

47:57
could change five or ten years from now

47:59
uh and often does

48:01
and so

48:03
that's why i think you and i have both

48:04
migrated to the mid midterm surrender

48:08
penalty period instead of the longest

48:09
terms gee there used to be and these

48:11
annuities had 15 year

48:14
periods 17 years yeah so you'd get in

48:16
and the insurance company turned the

48:18
heat down on you you're stuck

48:20
so i like something that sort of holds

48:22
the insurance company accountable to

48:24
offer you a fair competitive renewal

48:26
proposition or you can pick up your

48:28
money and go elsewhere

48:31
and if you ever ask there's a couple

48:33
people on the planet that i trust when i

48:35
call in and we're talking indexed

48:37
annuity type accumulation john is

48:38
certainly one of them

48:40
that then i base my decision on what i'm

48:42
recommending so i mean you're getting

48:43
some insight on on how the annuity man

48:47
process works a little bit um one other

48:50
question about carriers john we talk

48:52
about there's a lot of there's a lot of

48:54
movement

48:55
there's a lot of hedge fund private

48:57
equity people trying to get in front of

48:59
this baby boom

49:01
demographic tidal wave of 10 000 baby

49:03
boomers hitting age 65 every day

49:06
but you said something the other day

49:07
there are some mutual companies out

49:09
there that do offer these indexed

49:11
annuities right

49:14
yeah there are um there's you you've

49:17
meant we've mentioned and kind of agreed

49:18
not to name names

49:20
our show here but yeah there is a

49:23
company that's in a mutual holding

49:25
company that has a extremely high set of

49:28
financial ratings and touts themselves

49:30
as the

49:32
highest rated company that offers index

49:34
annuities

49:35
that's important because again you want

49:38
to put your funds in a place that you

49:39
can trust and has strength

49:41
and recently another very large one the

49:44
top three or four insurance companies in

49:46
the united states purchased

49:48
a company that specializes in index

49:50
annuities so

49:52
you can have your cake and eat it too

49:55
here you can have strength and a good

49:58
proposition for your annuity uh and

50:00
sleep well at night

50:02
and if that's yeah if that's important

50:04
to you from the standpoint if you're

50:05
looking at index annuities and you've

50:07
gone to the bad chicken dinner seminar

50:08
and they mentioned a name

50:10
that you'd never heard of that that

50:12
doesn't mean they're bad there's a lot

50:13
of carriers out there and they don't

50:14
start on advertising but

50:16
um if you want to go with those type of

50:18
mutual companies there they are out

50:20
there just you know shoot me an email or

50:23
schedule call we'll send you the

50:24
information on it we'll dig in and we'll

50:25
show it to you

50:26
um you're not uh you know you're you're

50:29
not

50:30
you don't have to go low rent

50:32
and find an annuity company that sells

50:35
index annuities you can go with the top

50:37
ones there are some out there

50:39
and um you know that's that's kind of

50:41
why we're talking

50:42
john i know you're not going to believe

50:44
this but

50:45
we've gone a long time which is good and

50:47
we're talking about indexed annuity

50:49
laddering strategies of all things so uh

50:52
you know always ask you this and you

50:53
never answer but i'm asking again john

50:56
one last one last

50:58
nugget of wisdom for these listeners out

51:01
there

51:03
negative wisdom

51:05
oh i will tell you this that uh and i

51:09
don't want you to think that i'm

51:10
promoting you here uh stan but if you

51:14
take stan's advice and then take that

51:16
advice and run out of the internet and

51:18
dig around you're gonna find it's pretty

51:20
solid stuff

51:22
and and at the end of the day i i'm i am

51:25
a consummate insider of annuities and i

51:27
own several of them

51:29
uh i want a couple of things the return

51:32
of my money a fair return on my money

51:35
sleep well at night this is the fixed

51:37
part of my portfolio

51:38
i watched the stock market today i

51:40
watched some stocks go up some stocks go

51:43
down the price of gold the price of

51:44
crypto

51:45
i don't look at my annuities every day

51:47
because i know they increase in value

51:49
every day and i like that so what i'd

51:52
say is the nugget of wisdom would be

51:54
that if you have

51:56
some of your assets invested in this

51:58
asset class

51:59
then it will give you the peace of mind

52:01
to be able to go out and risk some of

52:02
your assets into things such as equities

52:06
that have

52:07
higher rates of return historically

52:09
because you've got a base and in fact

52:11
stan one of the things i meant to

52:12
mention earlier was

52:14
a big ladder we talked about a three

52:16
rung ladder right a one two and a three

52:18
maybe

52:19
i did a ladder the other day for the

52:21
case it was a seven figure amount of

52:23
money uh close to two million dollars

52:25
and we've got money in a money market

52:27
money in a one year cd money in a two

52:29
year miga three four five six seven

52:32
eight

52:33
and the final bucket is his equity

52:35
portfolio so it's everything from the

52:37
safest thing on the planet

52:39
uh a short term us government money

52:42
market all the way out to the most

52:43
aggressive thing in the planet which is

52:45
equities but in the middle of it is

52:47
packed with guarantees that have known

52:49
returns and it's a sophisticated

52:52
20 million dollar network person that

52:54
sees the value of

52:56
this part of

52:58
a plan

53:00
i mean that

53:01
that's excellent i mean i i love hearing

53:03
that because um

53:05
they do have their place uh annuities

53:07
not for everybody you know but what

53:09
we're talking about here today is

53:10
principal protection

53:12
and laddering the index options however

53:14
you choose to do that i would encourage

53:17
um you know people to schedule call with

53:19
me shoot me an email if you want me to

53:20
send you some information i can send it

53:22
to you you know via email or if you want

53:24
hard copy we can do that as well i'll

53:26
overnight it to you because that's what

53:27
i do

53:29
um but i think that's about it for us

53:31
johnny lens i appreciate you

53:33
being with us and i do appreciate all

53:36
the listeners and viewers of fun with

53:37
annuities i'm telling you right now it's

53:39
one of the fastest growing podcasts out

53:41
there never planned this but when i

53:43
bring on smart people like john this is

53:45
kind of what happens so

53:47
thanks for joining me once again and we

53:49
will see you next week

53:51
on fun with annuities

53:58
thanks for listening to fun with

54:00
annuities please hit the subscribe

54:01
button and make sure to go to my site at

54:04
the

54:05
annuityman.com where you can run your

54:07
own spea dia and q lat quotes and see a

54:10
live feed of the best mica fix rates in

54:13
the country and even get indexed and

54:15
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54:17
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54:20
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54:22
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54:24
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54:26
one-on-one call with me stan the annuity

54:29
man so we can have a full discussion of

54:32
your specific situation it will be the

54:34
best brutally factual and truthful

54:36
advice you will ever get and that's one

54:39
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54:41
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54:43
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54:46
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54:48
with annuities

54:51
[Music]

55:02
you