087 Jason Fichtner: Understanding A Changing Retirement Landscape

0:04
welcome to fun with annuities with your

0:06
host me stan the annuity man america's

0:09
annuity agent can annuities be fun can

0:12
contractual guarantees be fun

0:14
absolutely they can find out the brutal

0:17
facts about annuities with no sales

0:20
pitches or high pressure nonsense just

0:23
the brutal and factual annuity truth

0:25
which is all you need to hear

0:27
let's have some fun with annuities and

0:29
let's have that fun start right now

0:33
[Music]

0:39
welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

0:41
host stan the annuity man america's

0:43
annuity agent licensed in all 50 states

0:46
including that nice one you're sitting

0:48
in right now i want to welcome everybody

0:49
listening to us on all the major podcast

0:52
platforms

0:53
and all of you go getters out there that

0:55
are looking at us on the fun with

0:57
annuities youtube channel and just

0:58
seeing how unbelievably attractive we

1:00
are we were discussing beforehand that

1:03
we both

1:04
um

1:05
we both think that we both have faces

1:06
for radio if you know what that means

1:08
but i am very honored to have

1:11
jason fitner

1:12
join us today and he is royalty i mean

1:15
he's one of these guys that

1:17
i was expecting him to show up with like

1:18
an ascot and this jacket with his you

1:20
know the elbow protectors and all that

1:22
stuff because that's how smart he is

1:25
okay i'm gonna go through a couple of

1:26
things

1:27
um that he's done but we're gonna have a

1:30
page for him like we always do for all

1:32
of our guests on the site where you can

1:33
look at his papers and you can go and

1:35
read about what he's done

1:37
i mean in a very technical term he's

1:39
written a crapload of papers

1:42
um i'm telling you this guy is prolific

1:44
he's the vice president and chief

1:45
economist of the bipartisan policy

1:48
center he's a senior fellow at the

1:50
alliance not only alliance for a

1:52
lifetime income and retirement income

1:55
institute he's a research fellow at the

1:57
center for financial security at the

1:59
university of wisconsin go badgers and

2:01
he's the treasurer

2:03
and national uh treasurer of the

2:04
national academy of social insurance

2:08
he's done more than that i mean i was

2:10
reading through his stuff too and just

2:11
kind of the schools he attended which i

2:14
always like to do because you know i put

2:16
myself through college playing

2:17
basketball that's that's a you know

2:19
that's my father's fault my mother's

2:20
fault i blame them but he got his ba

2:23
from the university of michigan

2:25
go wolverines and then his mpp from

2:26
georgetown university go hoyas and then

2:29
he got his ph.d and public

2:31
administration policy from virginia tech

2:33
go hokeys

2:35
and because of all of those basketball

2:37
you know

2:38
school things he's now known as dr j so

2:41
dr j

2:42
welcome to fun with annuities

2:44
thanks for having me and thanks for that

2:46
great introduction

2:47
even though i've written a lot my mother

2:49
tells me she's never read one of those

2:50
because i just said i wouldn't

2:52
understand it jason should just give it

2:53
back to me

2:55
let's jump right in social security

2:57
jason um

2:58
i deem you an expert in that whether you

3:00
want to say that you are you aren't you

3:02
are in my eyes and my my um clients and

3:06
people listening's eyes let's talk about

3:08
social security the current challenges

3:10
and just your take on it and then from

3:12
there we can dig in further so social

3:15
security what's happening with that

3:17
right now with the government

3:19
so that's a great place to start when we

3:20
start thinking about protected income

3:22
because social security is the largest

3:25
actual government program we have it

3:26
insures so many people

3:28
um and i used to be the principal deputy

3:31
commissioner of the social security

3:32
administration so it's one of those nice

3:33
little hats i got to wear and had been

3:35
uh really privileged to serve in that

3:37
capacity for four years

3:39
nice the the interesting thing about

3:41
social security though is it

3:42
does have financial challenges

3:45
and so there are actually two separate

3:47
legally distinct trust funds there's one

3:49
for the retirement program and one for

3:51
the disability program

3:52
most people think about social security

3:54
they just think about the retirement

3:56
program but it's important to realize

3:57
there's also a disability insurance

3:58
program uh which people don't often

4:00
think about until they need it uh and

4:02
there's a one in five chance that

4:04
somebody who's you know in their

4:06
mid-twenties today could be disabled at

4:07
some point in their lifetime so we have

4:09
to think about that program to solve and

4:11
see that program too

4:12
and we have public conversations about

4:15
social security solvency the public and

4:17
the media usually combine the trust

4:18
funds together they deserve coverage

4:20
associated trust fund standards so we'll

4:22
do that for convention sake and the

4:24
recent social state trustees report that

4:26
came out this past summer has the

4:28
combined trust fund is actually going to

4:30
be depleted in 2034. so that's a little

4:33
over 10 years away but what does trust

4:36
fund depletion mean it does not mean

4:38
social security goes bankrupt i think

4:39
that's a really important thing to tell

4:41
people who are both 20 years old 30

4:43
years old or 60s over 70 years old the

4:46
program is not going bankrupt what trust

4:48
fund depletion means is that over the

4:50
course of you know decades the payroll

4:52
taxes we paid into the system

4:54
were more than the benefits that were

4:55
being paid out and so that surplus was

4:57
accumulated in trust funds and treasury

5:00
bonds in a trust fund which have the

5:02
full backing and faith in the united

5:03
states government and now we're at the

5:05
point where payroll taxes alone are not

5:07
enough to benefit those sorts

5:09
administration starts to redeem sales

5:11
trust funds to make up the delta the

5:13
difference and that difference is going

5:14
to be exhausted around 20 30.

5:17
so what happens then well if congress

5:19
does nothing

5:21
uh and lets the trust funds become

5:23
depleted it is possible that

5:24
beneficiaries could see a 25 or 26

5:27
percent immediate cut in benefits or we

5:30
could see a four percentage point

5:32
increase in our payroll tax right now we

5:34
pay 12.4 for social security a little

5:36
bit more for medicare so about 15.3

5:39
total you just focus on that 12.2 and we

5:42
raise taxes to cover the difference

5:44
you're looking at about a 16.6 percent

5:46
tax rate which we start adding on to

5:49
medicare your federal taxes your state

5:51
taxes for some people the marginal tax

5:53
rate can be over 50 percent and that's a

5:55
big discouragement to work all right so

5:57
let's let's digest that for a second see

6:00
if you can turn your volume just a

6:01
little bit on your on your headset or

6:03
whatever you have

6:04
so let's digest that for a second um

6:07
small business owner i am i'm a serial

6:09
entrepreneur all i know is they're not

6:12
going to cut social security benefits i

6:14
know that okay

6:16
if taxes are going to go up

6:18
um do the younger people

6:22
me and you i'm i'm putting this in that

6:23
dr j i'm putting this in uh the younger

6:26
do we have to worry a little bit this 50

6:28
year old issues people

6:30
so it's interesting for those of us who

6:31
are 50 yes which you know we are you

6:34
know the trust fund depletion dates

6:35
right around the time when we're going

6:36
to be thinking about retiring

6:39
and and so this is where you start

6:40
thinking wait a minute what is what does

6:42
this mean for me and

6:44
when we think about retirement it's all

6:45
about trying to minimize risk retirement

6:48
we think about you know working and

6:49
accumulating savings and building up an

6:50
asset when you retire you're now

6:52
de-accumulating and you need to protect

6:54
against various risks longevity risk

6:56
market risk but now you're looking at

6:58
social security risk and that's a

7:00
political risk and you know in 2034

7:04
who's going to be president who's going

7:05
to be speaker of the house who's going

7:07
to control the senate these are all

7:08
political risks that can vary in the

7:10
timing of our ability to solve social

7:12
security financing structures

7:14
like you i do not i cannot see a picture

7:16
where you know the congress says we're

7:18
going to let beneficiaries lose a

7:20
quarterback no

7:22
it's not going to happen

7:23
um so what is what is that yeah so what

7:25
does that mean it means you're probably

7:27
going to have some combination of

7:28
general revenue transfers meaning the

7:30
regular taxes we pay an income that goes

7:33
to fund education defense and everything

7:34
else some of that might be safe and

7:36
siphoned off to make up the difference

7:38
or we'll borrow more money for the

7:39
general fund we're borrowing today we're

7:41
in deficit financing the federal

7:42
government or we could see some modest

7:45
changes to benefits on the high end so

7:47
if we start thinking about what this

7:48
means it's very unlikely again congress

7:50
should do a cut for everybody but they

7:52
might look and say wow look at those at

7:54
the high end the jeff bezos and bill

7:56
gates those who have accumulated over a

7:58
million dollars in their tsp which

8:00
nowadays is a middle-class tax break so

8:03
there's a lot of middle-class people

8:04
with a million dollars in their ts and

8:06
their 401k plans

8:08
who don't feel like they're rich and

8:10
don't think they're going to be rich in

8:11
retirement who could see a change in

8:12
their benefits so

8:14
what this means for us is we might have

8:15
to start thinking about how do we

8:18
minimize that risk retire do we stay a

8:19
little more today we think about working

8:21
longer do we think about delaying social

8:24
security thing a lot of people don't

8:25
understand the rules of social security

8:27
you can claim as early as 62 and as late

8:29
as 70 but the earlier you claim the

8:32
lower your monthly benefit amount

8:34
if you claim later at age 70 you get a

8:36
higher monthly benefit amount and that

8:38
dealt is big i mean thinking about 62 to

8:40
70 just that change is about 77 greater

8:44
than monthly benefits if you wait to age

8:46
70 from age 62. so we've got to start

8:48
thinking about what this means for

8:49
protected income for us and how we

8:51
actually can maximize uh our income and

8:54
also minimize our risk in retirement for

8:56
you and i and those are in our 50s or

8:58
those who are younger so securing will

9:00
be there the question is in what

9:01
capacity and how do we figure out how to

9:03
save a little more make sure we're going

9:05
to have a dignified and financially

9:07
secure retirement

9:10
got it now um

9:12
i always tell people you know they'll

9:14
call me and say should i take it at 65

9:16
or should i take it at 70 and i always

9:17
say there's no good answers just bad

9:19
sales pitches of which i don't do

9:21
but you have to factor in the 60 months

9:23
of payments that you missed if you wait

9:24
to take it at 70 and that's just basic

9:27
math

9:28
when people come at you with those type

9:30
of questions

9:32
and there's everyone's situation is

9:34
customizable but what's your general

9:36
response to that type of time value of

9:38
money question

9:40
so that that is a fantastic thing and

9:42
i'm glad you brought it up stand because

9:43
it's very important for framing and how

9:45
people think about this and what they

9:46
they see as lost income versus gains and

9:50
the

9:51
the first thing is i've toast all my

9:53
economic students the best answer for

9:55
any economics question is it depends

9:58
and you sort of brought that up right it

9:59
depends on your status there's not one

10:01
size fits all right so the usual general

10:04
rule of thumb i give people is if you

10:06
need the benefits today take them but if

10:08
you can afford a delay delay until you

10:10
need them because again for every year

10:13
you delay social security claiming it's

10:14
about an eight percent increase in

10:16
monthly benefit

10:18
and that can go a really long way when

10:20
you need them more in your 80s or 90s

10:22
right and again for for you know the

10:24
retirement age keeps keeping up and it's

10:26
going to be 67 for you and i for example

10:29
so for someone who rates the 67 that's

10:31
what's called the full retirement age

10:33
update 70 at the 25 increase in your

10:36
monthly benefit amounts just by waiting

10:37
three years where if we take it early

10:39
we're going to basically see a 30

10:41
reduction minute now you mentioned about

10:43
okay well if you wait for 62 to 67

10:46
that's five years that's 60 months of

10:48
payments you don't get

10:50
and the social administration you see

10:51
something called the break-even analysis

10:53
and that's sort of what you did is i

10:55
think with 62

10:56
i'm getting five more years of benefits

10:58
i could invest that amount or i could

11:00
use it at what point do i break even and

11:03
and this is the gain versus loss trading

11:05
so the agency used to tell people if you

11:07
take benefits in age 62 you'll be ahead

11:10
for 14 years

11:12
and people went wow i'm ahead for 14

11:14
years i'd better start taking benefits

11:16
at 62. what they didn't say is if you

11:19
think about that 14 years and you get to

11:20
76 and you live longer you're then

11:23
behind for the rest of your life

11:26
and that's a different way of framing it

11:28
and so when people see the gains first

11:30
loss they react differently so what i

11:32
tell people is think about your health

11:33
think about your longevity uh are you

11:36
working are you enjoying working if you

11:37
have other sources of income uh do you

11:39
think i have a 401k to give a pension

11:42
sure think about all those different

11:43
sort of variables and then make an

11:45
informed decision but i generally tell

11:47
people to delay claiming until they need

11:50
it

11:50
there's no benefit in delaying past age

11:52
70. but if you don't need it at 62 delay

11:55
and again you don't have to delay a year

11:56
you can delay a month you can delay a

11:58
week

11:59
six months the point is wait until you

12:01
need it because social security is the

12:03
best inflation protected annuity

12:05
out there

12:06
and you really want to make sure you

12:08
make that cleaning decision that's right

12:09
for you that's going to be the decision

12:11
you're going to have for the rest of

12:12
your life and it also affects your

12:14
spouse so if you're thinking about

12:15
survivor benefits or spousal benefits

12:17
that's based off the primary record as

12:19
well so the larger your benefit from

12:21
delaying claiming the larger the spouse

12:23
and survivor benefit will be

12:25
that's that's dr jason fitner and dr j

12:28
to me

12:29
um and he just said well i always say

12:30
which is uh social security best is the

12:33
best inflation annuity on the planet

12:35
which makes us all laugh when we hear

12:37
people say they hate all annuities which

12:39
is uh kind of you know i was gonna i was

12:41
gonna make my case jason for being on

12:44
the board of the

12:46
alliance for lifetime income because

12:48
i think the the marketing of the annuity

12:50
industry has been horrific i mean

12:53
i would start the conversation as you

12:54
already own an annuity the question is

12:56
do you need another

12:58
um and we don't do that you know the

12:59
annuity industry is all about growth and

13:01
potential growth and hypothetical growth

13:04
and back tested growth and we should be

13:06
selling the income story all day long

13:08
the transfer risk story and i think that

13:10
they add as a gut milk ad which instead

13:12
of got milk you say you got guarantees

13:14
question mark because all of these baby

13:16
boomers you wrote about it by the way

13:18
people we're gonna have this this paper

13:21
that that jason um

13:23
wrote and it's called the peak 65

13:25
generation we'll have a link to it

13:27
and if you you need to read it and it's

13:29
it's the subtitles creating a new

13:31
retirement security framework and he

13:34
lays out you know the demographic title

13:36
way that i always talk about which is

13:38
you know 10 what is it jason 10 000 baby

13:41
boomers turn to 65 every day or more

13:43
than that

13:44
um and if you go to some of the sites

13:46
like i was at one of your sites where it

13:48
shows how many people had turned 65

13:49
today and this morning it was like 4 600

13:52
or something like that it was great

13:54
dive in a little bit to this paper and

13:56
why it's so important for people to read

13:59
now the people that are listening to

14:00
this podcast they're consumers they're

14:02
not agents or advisors if they are

14:04
welcome you're not invited but welcome

14:06
to you anyway this is for the consumer

14:10
what did you point out in a brief

14:12
synopsis cliff notes version of this

14:15
paper that people should understand

14:17
so thanks for the for the

14:19
the bridge to that and i think this is a

14:20
good way to start with talking about how

14:22
you mentioned the word annuities no one

14:23
likes it and that's partly why we

14:25
started writing the paper so when you go

14:27
out and ask people

14:28
would you like to have your own personal

14:31
pension

14:32
i would love that if you ask them would

14:34
you like a guaranteed paycheck for life

14:36
i would love that would you like an

14:38
annuity no i don't want one of those

14:41
and this is certainly behavioral

14:42
distance and cognitive that people have

14:44
heard this annuity work and they it's

14:46
the a word they just they don't

14:47
understand what it means but we as an

14:49
industry hasn't we haven't fought back

14:51
jason

14:52
i'm fighting back i'm screaming into a

14:54
hurricane out here but we have it as an

14:57
industry pulled the money and come at

15:00
these idiots that are framing are

15:03
framing the whole thing incorrectly in

15:05
without facts how do we as an industry

15:08
say you already own one you might hate

15:11
us but you're already on one and oh by

15:13
the way you might need another one you

15:15
might need another risk standpoint how

15:17
do we

15:18
do that

15:19
yeah and this is where well the paper

15:21
gets into it and we also are doing

15:22
research to try to change the framing so

15:23
when we're talking about protected

15:25
income or guaranteed income which is the

15:26
phrases you use as well so

15:28
by doing these podcast stand keep doing

15:30
what you're doing because even though

15:32
you're talking to a hurricane eventually

15:34
that hurricane will die down and your

15:35
voice is going to get out yeah and this

15:37
and this happened at social security

15:38
again that the agency was using a

15:40
break-even analysis you talked about

15:42
right claim at 62 year ahead for 14

15:44
years and when i got to the agency

15:47
about 90 90 percent of financial

15:49
reporters were using the exact same

15:51
thing as telling people that's what you

15:52
do now if you if you google social

15:54
security claiming it's a complete 180.

15:56
everyone says don't use breakeven it's a

15:59
personal decision make an informed

16:00
choice but you're better off delaying

16:02
until you need it right so we're now on

16:04
this 10-year mission to change how we

16:05
talk about protected income right get

16:08
rid of the a word talk about guaranteed

16:10
income talk about protecting income

16:12
retirement

16:13
talk about what it means to have

16:15
a license to spend retirement because

16:18
people get so concerned they're going to

16:20
run out of money because they don't have

16:21
protected income outside of social

16:23
security they don't enjoy their

16:24
retirement or spend as much and so the

16:26
paper the peak 65 paper points out how

16:29
we've sort of changed our retirement

16:31
framework and as you noted 10 000 people

16:34
are they are turning 65 we hit our

16:36
quote-unquote peak 65 moment around 2024

16:39
when 12 000 people a day are going to be

16:41
turning 65 this is just just huge and

16:45
and it changes the entire sort of

16:47
framing about how we think about

16:49
retirement

16:50
and

16:51
there are people who are of course like

16:53
our parents and grandparents one of our

16:55
grandparents they had a pension they did

16:56
a defined benefit plan they worked most

16:58
of them worked for one company their

17:00
entire life uh maybe two right we're

17:02
changing jobs you're a serial

17:03
entrepreneur

17:05
this all changes we don't have that

17:07
pension and if you look back

17:08
historically and say before the mid-80s

17:11
people had social security and they had

17:13
a pension so they had two sources of

17:15
protected income in retirement those two

17:18
things combined maybe made up 70 or more

17:20
of their overall income retirement now

17:23
most people just have social security as

17:25
their sole source of protected income

17:27
which is designed to replace basically

17:29
no more than 40 percent of your income

17:30
on average so there's this gap and part

17:33
of the reason we wrote the paper is to

17:35
talk about how this changing system is

17:37
changing the entire retirement framework

17:40
and how do we make up that gap and how

17:42
do we look to protected income products

17:44
if social security is giving you 30 or

17:46
20

17:46
how do you make up that difference to

17:48
get you to seven and that's not

17:49
necessarily saying that everyone should

17:51
buy an annuity or that everyone should

17:52
buy something that lasts for a lifetime

17:54
but it may be talking about the

17:56
individual personal preferences and

17:59
differentiation of products that can

18:00
help people have more protected income

18:03
in their retirement and that could be

18:04
like a bridge to getting them to claim

18:06
late social security later it could be a

18:08
delayed annuity that basically starts

18:10
paying out when they're older say 85 and

18:12
they need it more again not one size

18:15
fits all but it's changing that

18:16
conversation and it's also looking at

18:18
what's the role of the employer if the

18:20
employer is doing a defined benefit

18:22
pension plan for so long and now is

18:24
doing a defined contribution plan

18:26
if they're doing your 401k matching or

18:28
no matching it's a 180 as far as the

18:31
employer responsibility before it was

18:32
they would basically provide that

18:34
protected income for your retirement yes

18:36
now they're helping you save

18:38
you retire they say have a nice

18:40
retirement they don't tell you how do

18:41
you decumulate this what's the right

18:43
draw down rate what's a good strategy

18:45
you're kind of left on your own

18:47
and so we need to help people figure out

18:49
how to do that natural protective income

18:51
what kills me

18:52
jason is that

18:54
the annuity industry has a monopoly on

18:56
lifetime income a monopoly we have a

18:59
monopoly on a product that everyone

19:01
wants and needs period

19:03
somehow

19:04
we've blown that

19:06
as an industry which which is the why i

19:08
do these podcasts and why i've done 500

19:10
videos on my standing nudity man channel

19:11
why i've written seven books and why i

19:12
keep yelling

19:14
at everybody

19:15
because it's not about roi i don't know

19:19
there's no roi until you die as i always

19:21
say with lifetime income

19:23
but it feeds into what you list in your

19:26
paper as the the changing retirement

19:29
landscape of which you just kind of

19:31
tiptoed into

19:32
i don't know what the percentage is but

19:34
i'm thinking less than 10 percent of

19:35
private employers are offering defined

19:38
benefit pensions is that correct yeah

19:40
it's definitely less than that i mean if

19:41
you leave out state and local government

19:43
government employees or still have them

19:45
or

19:45
uh you know police officers firefighter

19:47
you know

19:48
not counting government just right

19:50
private sector yeah it's less um and

19:53
it's going away because the liability's

19:55
too hard um you know you see companies

19:57
are going out of business or changing

19:59
names so frequently now you don't have

20:01
these hundred year companies anymore um

20:03
maybe a university right so if you work

20:05
for a university whether it's wisconsin

20:07
ohio state michigan sure they're going

20:09
to be around for a while but

20:10
who knows for sure so you've seen

20:12
companies shift their liabilities to

20:14
these defined contribution plans because

20:16
they paid in today and they know they're

20:18
done uh and when you retire on your own

20:20
but the employee is looking to the

20:23
employer for help and looking for advice

20:26
they consider the employer to be a

20:27
trusted source and this is also one

20:29
thing i mentioned in the paper is how do

20:31
we actually help employers of employees

20:34
uh so the bipartisan policy center where

20:35
i work now and we have what's a 403 b

20:38
plan so that's a 401k for non-profits

20:40
sure and and it's done through vanguard

20:43
and the bipartisan policy does not give

20:45
me financial advice but they offer a

20:47
service which i can talk to somebody at

20:49
background or somewhere else to get

20:50
financial advice so they're providing me

20:52
an employee benefit so i have a trusted

20:54
source i can go to talk to somebody

20:56
about what's the right portfolio of

20:57
allocation should i do a target date

20:59
fund what does this mean for healthcare

21:01
they can answer all my questions so the

21:03
employer provides a benefit when they

21:05
pay a professional firm to talk to the

21:07
employees but that gives me something

21:09
and that's where the employer i think

21:10
now has a role to figure out how to help

21:12
employees not just navigate the 401k or

21:15
403d retirement landscape for the

21:17
accumulation but when they retire how do

21:20
you help them think about again

21:22
accumulation or spending that retirement

21:24
and what their options are yeah and the

21:26
word decumulation is that is a four

21:28
letter one

21:30
it is just

21:31
it is horrific but my brain's rolling on

21:33
this i i want to ask you kind of a

21:36
question that's off topic

21:37
do you ever see a time

21:39
that the government our friends in dc

21:42
mandate which they like doing

21:47
employers providing lifetime income

21:50
do you ever see that

21:52
i think what's going to happen

21:55
is that

21:56
the

21:57
consumer industry is starting to shift

21:59
already so for example blackrock is

22:01
offering a product where they're going

22:02
to start putting in annuity contracts

22:04
into a target date fund

22:05
so this is this gets back into the

22:07
behavioral framing and if we're not

22:09
gonna there's the mandates are big

22:11
that's again they like demanded that's a

22:13
big sort of stretch right now but

22:15
imagine you start having these companies

22:17
like blackrock and others maybe fidelity

22:18
gets involved in vanguard who start

22:20
putting in contracts and go into a

22:22
target date and most people do target

22:24
date funds but it's easy they don't have

22:26
to think about right you invest it

22:27
changes the application for you to

22:29
invest and forget imagine how part of

22:31
that investment is going to buy an

22:32
annuity contract so at 55 actually

22:35
starts purchasing and you have then

22:36
defined income in your 401k plan when

22:40
consumers start seeing this in their

22:42
quarterly and annual statements

22:45
they'll get used to seeing that part of

22:47
their portfolios already here

22:49
for protected income and they're going

22:51
to want that because they're going to

22:52
see it they're like oh of course i have

22:54
this equity i've got bonds and then the

22:56
fixed income is currently into here

22:58
income and i'll expect that in our

22:59
retire i think we're going to see that

23:02
happen in the next 10 years that's going

23:03
to be this huge

23:05
sea change when it comes to employee

23:07
benefits it's still a pr problem to me

23:09
to me to me it's about messaging and

23:12
marketing um and i think that it's just

23:14
a horrific job i know that

23:16
uh i believe it's the the alliance for

23:18
lifetime income they sponsor the rolling

23:20
stones which is fantastic uh you know we

23:22
can get the t-shirt and also but i think

23:23
that's a colossal waste of money my

23:25
opinion

23:26
um that's great that that mick and the

23:27
stones are still hammering it out and

23:29
they're in their 70s i like that but it

23:31
seems like an ego play for me i know

23:33
that i would not be welcome at the board

23:35
meeting but they need to listen to what

23:36
i have to say

23:38
this needs to be a ground

23:41
this needs to be a television campaign

23:44
an ad campaign a print campaign that's

23:47
all coordinated to

23:49
speaking in english

23:51
about lifetime income what you call

23:53
protected income what i call income as

23:55
long as you're breathing i really think

23:57
it needs to be done down

23:59
to a third grade level no offense to

24:01
third graders so that people understand

24:04
that when you go into chapter two of

24:06
your life

24:07
you better start looking at lifetime

24:09
income

24:11
products and there's only one category

24:13
and that is the the annuity category the

24:15
other thing that i think is is tragic

24:17
and i'm on the you know

24:19
i get calls every day and i'm in the i'm

24:21
in the field here

24:23
people

24:24
think that when you buy an annuity for

24:26
lifetime income and you die the money

24:27
goes poof i think and of course that's

24:30
not true you can structure it so that

24:31
100 of the money goes to the

24:33
beneficiaries but the reason i'm

24:34
stepping on the sub box a little bit

24:36
is i'm talking to a lot of really smart

24:39
people on my podcast

24:41
we need to bring it way way way down

24:44
in order to tell the public that with

24:46
all these 401k trillions of 401k assets

24:48
that there's really only one choice

24:52
for lifetime income and it's the annuity

24:55
um it's the annuity category and there's

24:57
four different types of annuities for a

24:59
lifetime income but

25:01
i digress

25:03
are you as frustrated as i am on the

25:05
messaging of a

25:06
monopoly product like and i guess that's

25:09
the reason you're you're out here and

25:11
speaking but are you just kind of

25:13
scratching your head as well to the

25:14
messaging of all this

25:16
so i am cautiously optimistic that we're

25:18
making progress and the reason is

25:20
because people like you and others

25:22
recognize that there is a marketing

25:24
problem

25:24
and and you know again we're not here to

25:26
promote any specific product but i will

25:28
promote

25:29
i will promote a pamphlet and i help

25:31
create the social administration so it's

25:33
a government pamphlet if people just

25:35
google when to start receiving social

25:37
security benefits

25:38
um there'll be a two-page it's a

25:40
double-sided one pager so it's two pages

25:42
of you so what he said was when to start

25:43
receiving social security benefits

25:46
network okay do that well but

25:48
ninety-five percent ninety-five percent

25:50
of the people gonna see that because

25:51
they're on podcasts so when you get what

25:53
he held up is what you're actually going

25:55
to print

25:56
um

25:57
but i'll give you a link i'll send you a

25:59
link to it definitely i'll have his link

26:00
on on his page on the on the annuityman

26:04
dot com but that's that's the social

26:06
security

26:07
part

26:08
here's the point yes but here's the

26:09
point stan we spent a lot of time trying

26:12
to talk about the claiming decision and

26:14
get it down to two pages to get a

26:16
double-sided one-page flyer we could

26:18
hand my mother

26:20
anyone in the field office these are now

26:22
available in every field office in

26:23
social security administration

26:25
we need to do that now to what you're

26:26
saying to the marketing for new products

26:28
as they add under social security we've

26:31
got to get it down to two pages it's got

26:32
to be something that everyone can

26:33
understand and and the challenge now is

26:36
how do we do that in a way where the

26:38
industry adopts it because this is also

26:40
competition and i think the thing that's

26:42
been frustrating for me is that the

26:44
industry if you will you said they have

26:46
a monopoly on these products they all

26:48
agree we need to move forward but they

26:50
also want to compete and so you have to

26:52
sort of say well if you the more you

26:54
compete the lower the fees come the more

26:56
it becomes beneficial to the consumers

26:58
and the better the product's going to be

26:59
and they'll want more the products

27:00
it's business 101 i love it love it

27:03
bring you squeeze the fees bring them

27:06
down yeah you know and let's be

27:08
transparent about it and let's

27:09
commoditize these products like that

27:11
that's the problem jason is that you

27:13
have xyz insurance company and abc

27:16
insurance company and they both are

27:17
selling commodity type products based on

27:20
life insurance i mean life expectancy

27:22
mortality credits for lifetime income

27:24
and there's pounding the table that ours

27:26
is better

27:27
that's tough

27:29
it is but here here's what i think is

27:30
also right cautiously optimist it took

27:33
me several years at social security to

27:35
change the framing i've i've been at

27:37
this now just for a year or two and i

27:38
took over helping run the retirement

27:40
institute in march so i figure i've got

27:42
basically this this five-year plan which

27:45
i will sort of change my goal is to

27:47
change this framing and narrative around

27:48
how we talked about protected income

27:50
irritating income however the phrase you

27:52
want to use

27:53
and i also think we're going to see more

27:54
products like blackrock is doing tiaa

27:57
has a great one too which they call a

27:58
trial annuity and the a words in there

28:01
but the whole point is people you

28:03
mentioned they're afraid of giving up

28:04
money and then getting hit by a bus the

28:05
next day

28:06
what happens if you offer a product that

28:08
says we're gonna we're gonna basically

28:10
sell you

28:11
a lifetime anyway but

28:14
you have two years to change your mind

28:16
we're going to start giving you this

28:17
monthly payment right now so you get the

28:19
benefit of it you'll see how much you

28:21
enjoy it within two years you decide

28:23
it's not for you you can get the rest of

28:24
your money back if you do like it we'll

28:26
figure the default dates to continue

28:27
after two years that gets over that

28:29
hurdle people have about i have to

28:31
surrender how much money to get a little

28:33
bit less of monthly income it gives them

28:36
that out we're gonna see more product

28:37
differentiation and more entrepreneurial

28:40
spirit in the products because i think

28:42
with the secure act passing and maybe

28:43
secure 2.0 coming down in congress it's

28:46
going to give some more flexibility for

28:47
employers to start talking about it

28:48
offer these products and their defined

28:50
contribution plans

28:52
and we've already started seeing this

28:53
again you're out there stan i'm out

28:55
there we are now seeing the narrative

28:57
change in the media right the same way

28:59
the financial media changed their talk

29:01
about break-even and social security

29:02
thinking to now delay cleaning it or

29:04
take it until you need it i think

29:05
they're going to start talking about the

29:07
need for additional protected income on

29:09
top of social security but saying it's

29:12
not one size fits all there are many

29:14
products

29:15
talk to a professional think about your

29:16
options

29:17
talk to your employer but it's not going

29:20
to be annuities or bad it's going to be

29:22
you need something else

29:23
now talk to somebody and figure out what

29:24
that is and i think that's the framing

29:26
we're trying to change and we're making

29:27
progress i'm seeing that now in the

29:29
press talking to you now is another

29:30
example i think in five years we're

29:32
going to get there and i think the

29:34
industry is going to come along with it

29:35
because it's going to be a demand for it

29:37
well the consumer is going to drag

29:39
everyone kicking and screaming across

29:40
the finish line period because people

29:42
always ask well you know interest rates

29:44
are so low

29:45
and all that crap and i'm like listen

29:47
you don't get it nobody gets like i was

29:49
on the phone with a with a

29:51
um

29:52
a reporter the other day and they just

29:53
were all about interest rates to the

29:54
point where i just started yelling into

29:56
the phone i'm like you don't get it

29:58
it's about life expecting it's about

30:00
mortality credits it's about risking

30:03
risking uh pool risking risking

30:05
everybody putting everybody in one big

30:07
basket at age 65 or 57 or whatever and

30:10
sharing in that risk for lifetime income

30:13
and i know that uh people like most

30:14
moleski are talking about tontines and

30:16
things like that but i think we're going

30:18
down the rabbit hole i think we need to

30:20
make sure that we're talking about

30:21
english to people um and in a raging

30:24
bull market of which we're in it's kind

30:26
of tough to get people off the

30:28
um you know off the focus of markets

30:30
markets markets but me and you have been

30:31
around long enough to see

30:34
you know markets adjust quote unquote

30:36
and we'll have those same adjustments

30:38
again what i tell people though is when

30:40
you're at lap three of lap four of

30:42
chapter one going into chapter two you

30:45
don't have time for it to

30:46
[Music]

30:48
you know hiccup and or as they say

30:50
sequence of returns risk is and i'd

30:52
rather use the word hiccup because

30:53
people understand it

30:55
um

30:56
one of the things that you pointed out

30:58
also it kind of a postscript to your

31:00
your

31:01
paper which i thought was interesting

31:03
was

31:04
you just kind of posed the question why

31:06
don't people buy annuities why don't

31:08
people buy more annuities right now what

31:10
is that answer in your mind

31:13
so this goes back to what the you know

31:15
he said it's a postscript for anyone who

31:17
downloads the paper and sort of put it

31:18
as an appendix because it was considered

31:20
sort of two-point had a two-point headed

31:22
academic you to put in the paper itself

31:24
but it talks about what economists call

31:26
the annuity puzzle which you know from a

31:29
financial perspective from your

31:30
perspective mine it makes perfectly

31:33
rational sense for people to have

31:34
annuities even on top of social

31:37
um it gives you a license to spend it

31:39
guarantees income avoids market risk and

31:42
avoids political risk you know the

31:44
sequence of return risks everything you

31:45
mentioned communities are great everyone

31:47
should have them but people don't and

31:49
and part of that is this behavioral

31:50
thing again we talked about earlier you

31:52
wanted your own personal pension yes you

31:55
want a monthly paycheck for life yes i'd

31:57
love that very much thank you you want

31:58
an annuity no i don't and i think

32:00
there's this behavioral cognitive

32:02
distance whatever annuity is that people

32:04
just heard for so long that maybe it's

32:06
just it's a bad product the fees are too

32:08
high there's concern they're not going

32:09
to get paid or they're necessarily hit

32:11
by a bus and we have to change that

32:14
narrative

32:15
um to talk about what it actually is and

32:17
how it can help people and i think

32:18
there's also again this additional

32:20
framing for people psychologically

32:22
we have now trained people to think

32:25
about investing right return on

32:28
investment you mentioned this earlier

32:29
what's the roi we're all thinking about

32:31
how do i maximize return that's what

32:33
we're conditioned to do from the time

32:35
someone taught me money until even today

32:38
but now i'm talking about retirement in

32:40
retirement i'm not trying to maximize

32:42
return i'm trying to minimize risk i'm

32:45
trying to ensure with an e that i have

32:47
enough income on a monthly basis to last

32:50
the rest of my life with the spending i

32:53
want to do so what i really do now is a

32:55
licensed spend and if someone tells you

32:57
don't worry about your income products

32:58
just do a four percent drawdown on your

33:01
401k plan from your assets you mention

33:04
the idea of a hiccup a four percent rule

33:06
might work if there's a once in a

33:09
generation market dip that happens right

33:11
before you die but if that once in a

33:13
generation market decline of 20 30 40

33:16
happens the year after you're retired

33:18
the year before you retire you're losing

33:20
that ability to have that comfortable

33:22
income and that spending in retirement

33:24
we're just looking at a pandemic we're

33:25
coming out of with a 2008 financial

33:27
crash we've had two 100 year crashes in

33:31
my lifetime already in the past 20 years

33:33
so i think what we need to do is start

33:35
talking about not what it means to

33:37
maximize return in retirement

33:39
how to minimize risk and and that's

33:42
where you start showing where protected

33:43
income along with social security which

33:45
is protected can help people spend more

33:48
and be more comfortable than if they

33:50
start doing some of these draw down

33:51
strategies like a four percent well in

33:53
the four percent rule i mean wade fowl

33:55
was on a recent podcast with me and just

33:56
completely destroyed that i mean you

33:59
know he he actually did the research in

34:00
the four percent rule and it's it's

34:02
complete garbage and and outdated

34:04
um but i do think what's happening right

34:07
now in the industry are the the brokers

34:10
the bankers and the people where i used

34:11
to work morgan stanley meanwhile or

34:12
paying wherever ubs all those places are

34:14
starting to sell annuities but they're

34:16
not selling they're not they're selling

34:17
the growth story they're selling the

34:19
potential story they're really not

34:21
selling the income story because that

34:24
they can't charge a fee on that

34:26
okay and and i think that yes sales have

34:29
gone up but sales have gone up on the

34:30
products that in my opinion

34:33
should be

34:34
not at the top of the sales chart the

34:36
top of the sales chart should be the

34:38
simplistic

34:39
lifetime income products the personal

34:41
pension annuities i actually think if

34:43
you did a study and you used the word

34:45
personal pension in front of annuity you

34:47
could say personal pension damn annuity

34:49
and people like yes i love that

34:52
as long as you said personal pension you

34:54
could say anything after that and use

34:56
the word annuity you could say personal

34:58
pension mother law annuity they'd still

35:00
love it because it said personal pension

35:02
i just think that it to me

35:05
if i was tsar for the day of the annuity

35:07
industry first of all that'd be a lot of

35:08
fun jason you know that

35:10
it'd be great

35:11
but

35:12
if i was our for the day this is so

35:14
simple this is so simple i just think

35:17
people were getting the way in the way

35:19
of ourselves as an industry and the

35:21
pushback from the industry itself is

35:23
is kind of the whisper yeah we know

35:25
we're a commoditized product but don't

35:27
tell anybody because that doesn't make

35:29
that doesn't make our logo as good um i

35:32
i think they're go there's going to have

35:33
to become a meeting of the minds that

35:36
says okay for the for

35:38
for sales to triple on the ba and

35:42
in the consumer's favor not because the

35:43
industry wants it to triple because

35:45
there are so many people that want

35:47
guarantees

35:48
they're going we as an industry gonna

35:50
have to and carriers kind of have to

35:51
come to the conclusion that

35:53
it's gonna be competitive

35:55
and and it's good for the consumers same

35:57
thing happened with when the

35:59
commoditization of buying stocks and

36:01
mutual funds online and direct same type

36:03
of thing you know my company we're

36:05
trying to with a handful of others

36:06
trying to get in front of that

36:08
but i just think that

36:10
it's right there for us as an industry

36:11
and i'm glad that you're out there

36:12
fighting for us tell us a little bit

36:14
more about what the

36:16
alliance for lifetime income is doing

36:18
and and what you think they should be

36:20
doing in addition to what they're

36:22
currently doing

36:23
well you you sort of sort of mentioned

36:25
all things we're working on which is

36:26
sort of changing the messaging and

36:27
framing and bringing together member

36:29
companies to talk about how we can

36:31
better educate both consumers financial

36:34
professionals and policy makers on the

36:37
role for protected income

36:39
and what it means and again not one size

36:41
fits all it's also talking about where

36:43
the industry needs to change and this is

36:45
bringing together again the same

36:46
industry players who have to compete to

36:48
come together and again they recognize

36:50
that there needs to be change that the

36:51
industry needs to move forward and

36:52
getting them along to do it and so it's

36:54
a collaborative process and then under

36:56
the alliance flight time income is the

36:58
retirement income institute which i

37:00
helped lead the research effort and

37:01
we're doing a lot wade father there were

37:03
studies you mentioned we find wait foul

37:06
this research michael finka and others

37:08
do survey research i have another paper

37:10
which i'll send you late for just a

37:11
child with michael finka where we did a

37:13
survey um

37:15
of

37:16
beneficiaries and employer plans and

37:19
basically we found that employees

37:20
beneficiaries do want protected income

37:23
but it also depends on how you frame it

37:24
right if i use the a word they don't

37:26
want it i use protected income or a

37:28
pension they love it it's an amazing

37:30
difference so

37:31
we have graphics a nice pie chart so

37:32
i'll send that to you as well because

37:34
again it's easy for someone to read you

37:35
can post it on the webpage

37:37
so we're doing all of that and we're

37:38
talking to people like you we're talking

37:40
to journalists again we're my goal is to

37:43
reframe this because it is a fantastic

37:46
way of talking again it's a the

37:48
insurance companies are the only ones

37:49
providing this benefit and it's needed

37:52
now again it may not be one of the

37:53
things we haven't gone to yet we keep

37:55
covering the idea of a paycheck for life

37:57
but people may not need a paycheck for

38:00
life maybe what they need is a bridge

38:02
annuity that gets a screen 62 to age 67

38:05
or 70 they can delay cleaning social

38:07
security get the higher monthly benefit

38:09
amount and then that's what they use

38:10
maybe 70 on so you don't have to

38:12
annuitize for life you have to annuitize

38:14
all of your assets it could be partial

38:17
there are a lot of options and you don't

38:18
want to do it

38:20
you don't have to annuitize at all with

38:22
income writers so i think i think

38:24
another you know throwing the word

38:25
around annuitizing and all of that

38:28
it all comes down to lifetime income you

38:30
know whether you want it to be you know

38:31
revocable or irrevocable whether you

38:33
want control as i say do you want to

38:35
control the asset or not control the

38:36
asset which one do you want um instead

38:39
of annuitization so you know i think

38:41
that um

38:43
you know people always talk about you

38:44
know

38:45
the travel industry and and you know how

38:48
the travel industry is gone

38:50
no it's not gone it's the annuity

38:51
industry new industry is the new travel

38:53
industry where you know most annuities

38:55
are sold 30 mile radius from where the

38:57
the cusp the agent lives um we're trying

39:00
to upset that apple cart and say no no

39:01
no you can you can just buy the

39:03
contractual guarantees go to my site and

39:04
run all the quotes until your heart's

39:06
content and then make the decision et

39:08
cetera

39:09
until as an industry we embrace that

39:13
i'm not sure

39:15
what's going to happen the other thing

39:17
too is i think as an industry

39:19
we need to look at at squeezing of

39:21
commissions i know that that's going to

39:22
give me all kinds of hate mail which

39:24
bring it on

39:26
but it needs i think there's a lot of

39:27
value that needs to be built back into

39:30
um the payouts and the clients etc and

39:32
all of this i think is going to change

39:34
not because the industry wants it to

39:35
change the consumer is going to demand

39:37
it they really are yeah

39:39
something you bring up and there's sort

39:40
of two points one the financial

39:42
professionals i did a paper you know

39:44
several years ago

39:45
we looked at whether or not people

39:47
because one of the one of the barriers

39:48
potentially spanish professionals who

39:50
don't want to lose the assets under

39:51
management right buying some sort of

39:53
product right if you think about again

39:56
there's there's not one size fits all

39:58
there's numerous products but what

40:00
people are concerned about retirement is

40:02
running out of money right they don't

40:03
want to run out of money they would love

40:05
to have again the benefit of a

40:08
pension whether it's a pension for life

40:10
from a db plan or from an annuity type

40:13
product is it gives you this budget

40:14
constraint you know you have x amount of

40:16
money to spend per month and that's

40:17
guaranteed that's not just a

40:19
psychological benefit it's a financial

40:22
bin and the research we we looked at

40:24
with a few co-authors was looking at the

40:26
health and retirement study and seeing

40:28
people who had these specific products

40:30
when we ran simulations he said what if

40:32
someone took a partial annuitization

40:34
and they had them some money to spend

40:36
they had social security they left the

40:38
rest of their assets untouched what you

40:40
found is that people spend up to their

40:42
budget constraint but they're now

40:43
getting protected the rest of their

40:44
assets stay those assets continue to

40:47
grow in retirement and they get even

40:48
more wealth

40:50
over their retirement and that's more

40:51
money under assets under management so

40:53
they come out ahead in both cases and so

40:55
the problem we have now is financial

40:57
professionals are looking somewhat no

40:58
not all we're looking at the short term

41:00
right i lose this money today if i get a

41:02
client to buy an annuity product they

41:05
don't think about the long-term amount

41:06
well if i give them an annuity product

41:08
they have this bundle that they're not

41:10
spending which the next 20 plus years

41:12
will continue to grow that they'll then

41:14
manage and make fees off of so you've

41:16
got to think about this holistically and

41:18
and that's where we also need to start

41:20
having discussions with consumers and

41:22
with bank professionals about think

41:23
about this holistically not just we

41:25
snapshot in time yeah and i tell the

41:27
consumer all the time if you have your

41:29
income floor in place whatever that

41:30
means to your social security annuity

41:32
pension dividend income side hustle

41:34
whatever that is coming in if you have

41:36
the income for floor in place you will

41:38
be a better investor period and when the

41:40
banks and the brokerage firms bring me

41:42
in to speak to their their masters of

41:44
the universe after they stop throwing

41:45
things and booing me i'll say listen to

41:48
me

41:49
if you put in that guaranteed income

41:50
floor using the a word

41:53
you're going to be a better investment

41:54
advisor because you don't have to

41:55
disrupt any type of holdings and your

41:58
clients are going to be happy and

42:00
they're going to be stickier from the

42:01
standpoint of them staying at your firm

42:04
and when i tell people that and they

42:05
listen they understand it i've been

42:07
where those people are sitting at ubs

42:09
painting wherever or stanley being

42:10
winner i understand that that message

42:12
wasn't there when i was there but it

42:14
should be there now and i applaud you

42:16
guys for at least going after those what

42:19
i call masters of the universe advisors

42:21
that that think that everything goes up

42:23
in value because that's all they've seen

42:25
i always say that i have cowboy boots

42:26
older than most financial advisors

42:28
they've never really seen a down market

42:30
and things like that so

42:32
tell me um

42:34
what is your prediction from you've kind

42:36
of given a prediction of a little bit

42:38
more consumer-friendly friendly products

42:42
do you have any more predictions that

42:44
most people aren't aware of going

42:47
forward with the annuity industry are

42:48
there some danger zones that we need to

42:50
be aware of

42:52
well the danger zone is complacency so i

42:54
i think we need to really keep having

42:57
these conversations about framing and

42:59
education and what the products are and

43:00
what they mean and how they can have

43:02
people have what uh you know michael

43:05
fink and david blanchard call license to

43:06
spend and we've got to change that

43:08
framing away from investment framing and

43:10
start talking about the guaranteed

43:12
spending the guaranteed income and what

43:14
that means for minimizing risk and

43:16
having a secure retirement right

43:19
my fear is that we let off on that uh

43:22
that's one i think from the prediction

43:23
standpoint you know the alliance

43:25
lifetime income myself you we're all

43:26
committed i mean they're

43:28
the the one thing about retirement i'm a

43:31
tax economist by training no one in

43:32
their right mind grows up wanting to be

43:34
a tax accountant you've got to be you

43:35
didn't wake up in the morning and go you

43:36
know what

43:38
it's kind of like i was five years old

43:40
stan i want to be a tactic see i didn't

43:41
wake up in the morning one day and said

43:43
you know what i want to be staying the

43:44
annuity man knew the the financial curse

43:47
word that's what i want to be

43:49
nobody does that i don't know is is this

43:51
passion

43:57
is

43:58
we have the potential to help

44:01
millions of americans

44:03
have a financially secure retirement i

44:06
mean what other jobs can you go to where

44:07
you can help millions of people be

44:08
financially secure and have a dignified

44:10
retirement that's just an amazing sort

44:13
of job to have and i was committed to

44:15
doing that at social security and i left

44:16
social security and started doing

44:17
retirement policies further on the

44:19
private side

44:20
i now see this as the next major step

44:22
and so i'm committed to getting it done

44:24
changing the way that we talk about

44:26
productive income products having them

44:28
be part of a defined contribution plan

44:30
whether it's a target date fund or

44:32
something else so employers are

44:33
comfortable talking about it working

44:35
with congress and policy makers to make

44:36
sure we get rid of whatever barriers and

44:38
legal hurdles are there so employers

44:40
don't feel like they're going to get

44:41
sued for everything

44:42
but still having protections in place

44:44
for consumers so that's that's sort of

44:46
where i think we're going in the next

44:47
five ten years and i think we're gonna

44:49
get there because i wasn't having these

44:51
conversations stand ten years ago and

44:53
we're having them today frequently so it

44:56
is changing and the last thing i think

44:58
we're gonna have to start doing this is

44:59
where i think it's also a problem

45:02
there you know you you start talking

45:03
about how you know smart people come on

45:05
the show i'm also smart enough to know i

45:07
don't have all the answers and i need

45:09
help from people like on your show and

45:10
others to talk about how we can make

45:12
changes

45:13
one of this is this topic of insurance

45:15
right an annuity is an insurance product

45:18
no one likes to talk about insurance

45:19
because you know as an economist for

45:22
talk we're told that insurance is for

45:23
adverse events

45:25
low probability high cost bad things

45:28
house you know gets broken into house

45:30
burns down you get sick car accident

45:32
life insurance you die

45:35
what do you want to sell me something

45:36
for insurance that's a bad thing there's

45:38
contracts that people that they don't do

45:41
that but if you need to make sure

45:43
if you use lifetime income insurance in

45:45
front of it or retirement income

45:46
insurance in front of it you know i'm

45:48
with you yeah you have to do that you're

45:50
you're there because people do

45:52
understand that and i will say this

45:55
that until the

45:56
consumer is beating down the doors of

45:59
the advisors for lifetime income then

46:02
the industry has not done their job

46:05
it's got to be it's got to be a push not

46:07
a pull

46:08
and right now i feel like the industry

46:10
is pulling

46:11
and we need to be pushing and in anybody

46:14
that comes out we actually have to have

46:16
a war room

46:17
of which i will be the general of that

46:19
war room dr j

46:21
of anybody who come

46:24
who really comes out the industry in a

46:26
non-factual manner should be

46:28
professionally

46:30
factually destroyed um from the

46:32
standpoint of of ads

46:35
of of everything coming at them and and

46:38
not call them out by name because i'm

46:39
sure their wife is nice and makes a very

46:40
nice peach cobbler but just say listen

46:43
you can't get away with that anymore you

46:45
can't get away with saying all annuities

46:46
are expensive you can't get away with

46:48
saying that when you die the money goes

46:50
poof you can't get away with there's no

46:52
good returns on on annuities you can't

46:54
get away with that stuff anymore and you

46:56
certainly can't get away with i hate all

46:58
annuities that means you hate all trucks

47:00
and you hate all restaurants and you

47:01
hate all shoes and you're an idiot so

47:04
we've got to be

47:05
we're a nice industry a bunch of nice

47:07
people i think we need to get a little

47:09
bit more of a chip on our shoulder

47:10
because what we are protecting

47:14
is the lifestyle of ten thousand baby

47:16
boomers hitting age 65. you know we talk

47:18
we hear about politicians fighting for

47:20
the people and fighting for the working

47:22
man and fighting for those families

47:24
honestly we have to fight for them and i

47:28
feel like i do that every day i'm sure

47:29
you do as well but as an industry

47:31
there's got to be a consistent voice

47:34
that comes at we are here for you for

47:36
lifetime income we are here for you to

47:38
transfer risk

47:39
we are here for lifetime income

47:41
insurance

47:42
that's what the annuity industry does

47:44
the and make fun of the a word i'm just

47:47
i would just have fun with it y'all know

47:49
we're not going to say the a word oh my

47:50
gosh don't say that

47:52
we might have to have fun with it i

47:53
think that that gives me hope too is you

47:55
know you and i are both old enough to

47:56
remember

47:57
when brokerage firms

48:00
charged you a hundred bucks to buy stock

48:01
and you had to buy it and you had to buy

48:03
it around lots of 100 right so you

48:04
couldn't buy one share of four shares or

48:06
fractional shares

48:08
and then you started getting the

48:09
quote-unquote discount brokers right who

48:11
started coming at 49.95 for a trade and

48:14
then it was e-trade coming at 19.95 and

48:16
now

48:17
there's no such thing as a grade a

48:19
discount broker they're all just brokers

48:20
who bought their fees and again exactly

48:22
they've wrapped it into something else

48:23
so they're still making money

48:25
but

48:26
i think we're going to start seeing that

48:27
happen again with same sort of thing

48:30
happening with annuity price because

48:31
you're going to start getting the tech

48:33
firms to find the fintechs involved

48:34
you're gonna start getting black rocks

48:36
in it now you're gonna start seeing you

48:38
know fidelity and vanguard and pretty

48:40
soon like you said all sudden they're

48:41
all gonna get into it because the

48:42
consumer's gonna see it being offered in

48:44
a few places they'll start gravitating

48:46
and the industry's gonna do it i think

48:48
we're gonna see this happen in five to

48:49
ten years especially if we keep pushing

48:51
and i'll tell you a great story when i

48:52
was at dean winner they had a senior vp

48:54
flying from new york and i was working

48:55
at a satellite office he said don't

48:57
worry about this direct uh stock

48:59
purchase you know for eight dollars it's

49:00
not gonna affect us i just raised my

49:02
hand and said you're an idiot straight

49:03
up um that didn't go over well and i

49:05
didn't stay along the d water but um i

49:07
went on to another firm but that's how

49:09
stupid it is you know i you know

49:12
as as crazy as people might think i am

49:14
and i am very passionate about what i do

49:16
um we're a tech company that sells

49:18
annuities i mean we are literally

49:20
fintech we we have structured it so that

49:22
you can do all your quotes and see

49:24
everything on and everything's done you

49:26
know virtually etc that's where it is

49:28
headed there's a handful of us out here

49:30
but i remember when i first started this

49:32
and i got this wild hair to do this i'm

49:34
like why wouldn't this be so direct

49:36
um we had to convince the annuity

49:37
companies to have the paperwork signed

49:39
you know a day later when the fedex

49:41
arrived and they're like why would why

49:42
would you do that why wouldn't you just

49:43
meet with a client that was less than 10

49:46
years ago so we have made some strides

49:49
but it is going to be um it's got to be

49:52
a concerted effort

49:53
for all of the

49:55
smart people in the room and the people

49:57
that are a little bit

49:58
you know out in left field like me

50:00
people say wait a minute your stand the

50:01
annuity man yeah but i do understand

50:04
this product backwards and forwards and

50:06
i do understand how it fits and i'm just

50:08
confounded every day that it's not the

50:11
number one thing that people point to

50:13
every single time with their retirement

50:15
money and and i think maybe in the

50:17
future

50:18
it will be it will be and you know we

50:21
certainly all have those plans to get

50:23
that message out and i certainly

50:24
appreciate you um

50:26
you sharing your

50:28
you know your insight on all of this um

50:30
kind of to close it up because i know

50:32
you won't believe this we've been going

50:33
forever

50:34
this is fascinating you gotta you gotta

50:35
come back on because i want to i want

50:37
you to always weigh in when things are

50:39
new and you want to weigh in on

50:40
something but what

50:42
kind of parting words do you have for

50:43
the consumer out there we have thousands

50:45
and thousands of listeners is growing by

50:46
leaps and bounds

50:48
what do you have to say to them

50:51
just from an overall standpoint i know

50:53
you covered a lot today

50:55
the the one obvious message is you know

50:57
retirement is a personal decision and

51:00
retirement does not mean you have to

51:01
stop working uh you can keep working in

51:03
retirement but it means you have to sit

51:05
down and think holistically about your

51:07
financial needs challenges and how you

51:09
minimize risk what does that mean for

51:11
social security what does that mean for

51:12
your portfolio what does it mean for

51:14
additional protected income products on

51:16
top of social security you need

51:17
something that will help you delay

51:19
social security cleanly need the money

51:21
today you need it when you're

51:22
potentially 85 minute health issues

51:25
think about this holistically don't make

51:27
a rush or rash decision

51:29
talk to people uh and find a good

51:31
professional to talk to because i think

51:33
that's important to walk through options

51:35
realize one size does not fit all

51:37
don't be afraid to ask for assistance

51:39
and help but think about it because this

51:40
is one of the most important financial

51:42
decisions you'll make for the rest of

51:44
your life yeah and there are no

51:46
mulligans in retirement as i say you

51:47
can't put it back on the t and i always

51:49
tell people too there's not an urgency

51:51
to ever buy an annuity of any type the

51:53
urgency is for you to fully understand

51:54
what you're buying both benefits and

51:56
limitations and to make that decision on

51:58
your terms and your time frame and never

52:00
be pressured into it

52:03
period ladies and gentlemen that's dr j

52:06
also known as jason fitner he is

52:09
he is an annuity master of the universe

52:10
for sure you know he

52:13
he he brings a lot to the table and we

52:15
just barely scratched the surface we're

52:17
going to have a a page for him on our

52:19
site at the annuityman.com with all of

52:20
his papers and links

52:22
jason make sure you send me all those

52:24
we're going to get those posted

52:26
but i really appreciate you being on fun

52:28
with annuities the no one annuity

52:30
podcast on the planet by leaps and

52:31
bounds and growing every day and i

52:33
appreciate everyone listening and i will

52:35
see you next week on fun

52:38
with annuities

52:44
thanks for listening to fun with

52:46
annuities please hit the subscribe

52:47
button and make sure to go to my site at

52:50
the annuityman.com where you can run

52:52
your own spea dia and culat quotes and

52:56
see a live feed of the best micah fix

52:58
rates in the country and even get

53:00
indexed and income rider quotes as well

53:03
you can also sign up for my six annuity

53:06
owner's manual books and i'll ship them

53:07
for free and under no obligation i also

53:11
encourage you to schedule a one-on-one

53:13
call with me

53:14
stand the annuity man so we can have a

53:16
full discussion of your specific

53:18
situation it will be the best brutally

53:21
factual and truthful advice

53:23
you will ever get and that's one

53:25
guarantee you should definitely take

53:27
advantage of so join me next time for

53:29
the number one annuity podcast on the

53:32
planet

53:33
fun

53:33
with annuities

53:37
[Music]

53:48
you