086 Steve Parrish: Rational and Phased Retirement Planning

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can find out the brutal

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facts about annuities with no sales

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pitches or high pressure nonsense just

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the brutal and factual annuity truth

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which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

0:41
host stan the annuity man america's

0:43
annuity agent and as you know licensed

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in all 50 states i encourage you to go

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to my site run your own quotes you know

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get my books i'll send them to you for

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free you can schedule call with me as

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well but this podcast fun with annuities

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we are really enjoying bringing on

0:56
experts in their field to educate you

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because you know in our world you know

1:02
you buy an annuity for what it will do

1:04
not what it might do those are the

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contractual guarantees and there's no

1:07
urgency to do that the urgency is to

1:08
understand what you're buying

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our guest today his name is steve

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parrish he is

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he's got so many um

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letters and things behind his name i

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don't even know where to start but the

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bottom line he is he is a lawyer he is

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the an adjunct professor for the

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american college which is

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in our world where people go go to learn

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to do the right thing from the

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standpoint of advice giving advice from

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a retirement standpoint he also writes

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for a myriad of places one of those is

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forbes you've probably seen him

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um if not when you see the next time you

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see a forbes article come by by steve

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paris make sure to read it so with that

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being said in the introduction steve

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welcome to fun with annuities

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thank you stan it's nice to be here well

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actually let's let's start in let's jump

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in i read an article a long time ago

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that

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you had these three reasons

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why why you feel people don't understand

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annuities

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um

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and there's a lot of reasons you know

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because i don't think the annuity

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industry does a very good job of

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educating the public that's kind of

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where i step in and where i hang my hat

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as an edutainer

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what are those three things and if there

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are more go into the more things that

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are kind of confusing to people when

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they when they talk about annuities

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i think that's a good place to start

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because

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really annuities are a form of insurance

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right it's just insurance

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for the longevity versus dying too soon

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and everybody understands the concept of

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insurance but they don't want to pay for

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it or at least they don't think they

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want to so they get into things like

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saying well why would i buy an annuity

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because if i die you know two days after

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i buy that i don't get my money back so

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part of it is they don't understand

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the whole concept of

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annuities not being an investment but

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really being a form of insurance

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that makes the investment that much

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better

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the other thing is and you even

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commented on it i suppose traditionally

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the

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industry hasn't done a great job of

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explaining it it's not the simplest

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thing in the world and sometimes people

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try to baffle them with their bs a

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little bit right um really the concept

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is pretty straightforward if you think

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about it the bells and whistles are nice

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but i think sometimes people lead off

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with the bells and whistles of i can

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you know i can make this guaranteed

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income for life and not really explain

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what annuity is so

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i think it's really more a matter of

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financial literacy though i hate that

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term

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um in other words knowing more being a

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little more educated then really an

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annuity is a fairly simple thing

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and you realize that

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the whole idea of i don't want to pay

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for it is is just saying uh they're

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they're not

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always grasping the idea that some

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people are going to die before their

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life expectancy some are going to die

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after their life expectancy and so

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really get kind of a mortality premium

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if you live afterwards and that's the

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insurance part is hey

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i may technology may come along i may

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lived 110 even though i didn't think i

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was going to make it past 80. this is

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the advantage of insurance just kind of

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the flip side of life insurance

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i i think the annuity industry um

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unfortunately has just has just not

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herded the cats for lack of a better

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phrase you know when you say the word

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annuity most people think of lifetime

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income annuities and those are primarily

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the primary types but there's many that

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protect the principal and do other

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things long-term care etc

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but they're all guarantees they're all

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transfer risk products my if i was our

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for the day in the annuities industry

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first of all it'd be a lot of fun second

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of all our mantra would be got

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guarantees like the got milk ad because

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these are guarantees they're contracts

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and the question is what are you trying

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to solve for um and i've broken it down

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to an easy acronym called pill principal

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protection income for life legacy and

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long-term care

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and always ask people what do you want

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the money to contractually do and when

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do you want those contractual guarantees

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to start i really believe it's that

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simple however we let outside people

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frame the i hate annuities culture which

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is somewhat funny to me because every

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single person

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you know that has social security owns a

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social security annuity the best

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inflation annuity on the planet

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um

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why do you think that the messaging

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within the industry is so poor because

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american the american college i mean you

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guys are the academics you're the guys

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with the you know with the tweed jackets

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and the ascots and smoking the pipe and

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you're this you're the guys in the tower

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that are smart and we all look to you

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for your guidance and your insight

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but for the consumer how did things go

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wrong and how did the annuity industry

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earn this bad reputation that we

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currently have

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i think

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i think the main thing is historical

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frankly annuities as i said are really a

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form of insurance in a very positive way

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and so it gets associated with its

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cousin life insurance and people have

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that

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um conception of oh wait a minute this

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is something with high commissions

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and where somebody's gonna you know

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break my arm to do that and then i don't

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realize that's all changed um when i

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used to work on very high-end accounts

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dealing with life insurance and i'd be

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talking the cpa and the cpa would give

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you the same line as you hear with

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annuities is oh

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we were using corporate owned life

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insurance to say oh i don't like

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i don't like life insurance and i said

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okay we're not going to call it life

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insurance we're going to call it fred

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now here's what fred does and we go

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through it all they get a little laugh

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and say yeah actually that works the tax

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free death benefit and all that

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same thing with annuities i think it's

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associated with the idea

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that it's somebody's going to

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they're going to take all your money

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which you can do all kinds of things and

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buy all kinds of things with and they're

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just going to give you back a fixed

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payment as you said they see annuity as

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just this one single fixed payment

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and most of it's going to be bled off

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with commissions so i think it's just

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historical that's why i said

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it's not insurmountable

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people just if they read about it and

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listen to your podcast just thinking out

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loud it makes a lot more sense and yes

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one other comment is

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i'm at an academic institution i don't

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get paid by anybody other than the

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institution and i'm just telling you as

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somebody who works through the numbers

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and does retirement financial planning

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annuities are a very important part of

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the equation and the proof's in the

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pudding that i own annuities as part of

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my retirement plan

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well and i you know i i think that um

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you know people when they say i hate all

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annuities i say that's like saying you

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hate all restaurants or hate on trucks

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or you hate old shoes and you know i

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point back to the social security or a

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pension if they're so fortunate to have

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one um but i think the annuity industry

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has kind of won the lottery because

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they're in the way

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whether they want to be or not are the

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biggest demographic title wave of all

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time which is ten thousand baby boomers

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hitting age 65 and regardless of how bad

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a sales message may be they won't

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guarantees and they're going to find the

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guarantees regardless of interest rates

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political environment etc one of the

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things that in doing the research from

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my team and i were kind of laughing on

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one of the your pound the table three

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everybody has three words

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um and yours is refused to retire

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um which which i thought was was good

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and

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um i always tell people that our

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retirees are thinking about being

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becoming retired or pointing toward that

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there's a chapter two in your life

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that

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falls under your category of refuse to

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retire expound upon what that means to

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you

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right

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and i think this helps with a lot of

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people to think of it this way there is

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financial retirement and then there's

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emotional retirement

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so because of my advanced age you

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couldn't tell from this picture i look

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so young but i am a person of a certain

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age who qualifies not just qualifies i'm

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on medicare and i am getting social

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security payments so financially

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i'm retired i also get a pension plan

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for my former employer

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but

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obviously i'm not emotionally retired i

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i work a a a full schedule i i travel

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well now that coven 19 is being

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controlled and i write in all these

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things so in my mind um i'm like a lot

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of people that you may run across who

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almost bristle when they look at me and

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say oh you must be retired and it's kind

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of why do you assume i'm retired so

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that's the refuse to retire thing is

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it's nice to have the option now some

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people really like it and

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we a lot of research tells us that once

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people go through the emotional part of

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actually retiring once they're retired

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most people really enjoy it

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yes there's the fear of um being bored

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and you know they turn out guess what

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you can't golf every day but most people

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do enjoy it but a lot of us also enjoy

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working and so that's what i mean by

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refuse to retire as long as i can do and

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add value i'm going to

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and i came up with the phrase recently

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called life entrepreneur chapter 2 you

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become your the entrepreneur of your

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life the managing of your company that

10:15
which is you and your family and your

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assets and your retirement and your

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planning and your legacy

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and your health

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um and i think you know everyone is is

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going to transition hopefully to that

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life entrepreneur stage but i just love

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the refuse to retire one of the um kind

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of pivoting to a harder topic

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one of the articles you wrote recently

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in forbes um

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and when i read it it

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everybody falls under this situation and

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everybody can point to someone that they

10:44
know and the title of it i'm going to

10:45
read the title was

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getting ahead of your diminished

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capacity worries

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and

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i need you to go into that because

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that's that's

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that's just you know you're you're

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stepping into a realm that we all know

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that's that's going to happen to all of

11:02
us

11:03
but it we all hesitate to plan for it

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so kind of walk us through what you

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think that means how we should approach

11:11
it the possibility of an income floor

11:13
using annuities helping with that

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certainly that's been an in an area of

11:19
interest for me and to be honest and

11:20
partly because uh

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you know recognizing the age i just said

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i'm i'm getting at i have a lot of

11:26
friends that it's become almost a lab

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for watching what happens in retirement

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because a lot of my friends are similar

11:33
ages are now retired

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and i'm starting to notice certain

11:37
aspects of diminished capacity

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so it's it's really thinking about it

11:41
this way is first what how what is def

11:44
diminished capacity

11:46
it's not necessarily a long-term care

11:48
event it's not alzheimer's that

11:51
certainly is a form of it but um and

11:53
it's not just because you can't remember

11:55
uh names as easily as you did before

11:58
it's somewhere in there it's not

11:59
full-blown dementia is what you're

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saying you're saying it's it's the it's

12:03
the stage of life where you know

12:05
that you know you've got an

12:06
eight-cylinder engine but you're hitting

12:08
on five cylinders right

12:10
yeah and some of those cylinders might

12:12
for example be um

12:14
you're perfectly functioning

12:15
everything's fine but you don't like

12:18
working with your monthly bills

12:20
you really don't like to have to make

12:22
investment choices and that kind of

12:24
thing so your capacity financially is

12:27
diminished but it doesn't mean you've

12:28
you've lost it and you're going into the

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home

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so

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that's the that's the issue is how do

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you address that in advance because

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guess who the last person will be that

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knows you have diminished capacity it's

12:43
you

12:44
yeah

12:46
that's true that's a really good way to

12:47
put it

12:49
and i talked to jamie hopkins recently

12:51
he says he you know forget roi it's ros

12:53
it's return on sleep and really what

12:55
he's saying is

12:57
you you know taking care of yourself

12:58
chapter two of your life and and the

13:00
diminished capacity prediction

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one out of one of us is going to have it

13:05
right

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right

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and and

13:08
how do you see the

13:10
the annuity space or the industry

13:13
addressing that and do you think that

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as an industry we might be a little

13:17
proactive even though it steps on a few

13:19
emotional toes

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well i think that's a very strong point

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because annuities are

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um

13:27
really it's a do-it-yourself defined

13:29
benefit plan if you think about

13:31
annuities i sometimes call it a diy db

13:34
meaning

13:36
my dad you know had his his government

13:38
pension and and it was he didn't have to

13:40
think about it so

13:42
uh retirement was fine from him he got

13:43
his check right

13:45
most of us you know looking at 401ks and

13:48
we're dealing with sequence of return

13:50
we're dealing with all these issues and

13:52
so what you're doing and that's why i

13:54
want to bring diminished capacity into

13:56
it is as you

13:59
retire maybe you even don't have

14:01
diminished

14:02
capacity you just don't want to deal

14:04
with it anymore the fact is if you know

14:07
that you have number one a stream of

14:09
income that's predictable

14:11
and number two that it will continue

14:14
for the whole of life because you don't

14:16
know how long you're going to live so it

14:17
picks up the tail end if you will of

14:19
longevity

14:21
that brings huge peace of mind and

14:23
security so

14:25
where i'm going with annuities as part

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of that solution is that it addresses

14:30
those two questions

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and

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when you're just not wanting to deal

14:35
with finances that's one thing when you

14:38
actually have diminished capacity then

14:39
it becomes extremely powerful because

14:42
one you're getting the income you don't

14:44
have to worry about it and two it can

14:47
very much help with elder abuse

14:50
so

14:51
if you're sitting on a million dollars

14:53
of a 401k plan and taking four percent

14:55
of it every year

14:57
that can expose you to elder abuse if

15:00
you're starting to lose it and you don't

15:01
know it

15:02
if instead you've used a reverse

15:04
mortgage or annuities or those kind of

15:06
things that lock in a stream of payment

15:09
it's harder for that

15:11
culprit

15:12
which might be your kids

15:14
to really raid the kitty because you're

15:17
getting a periodic payment much as our

15:19
grandparents got defined benefit plan

15:22
payments

15:23
well and i think it's important to point

15:25
out a lot of people out there think well

15:26
the evil annuity company's going to keep

15:28
the money and you know when i die and

15:29
money's going to go poof that's one of

15:30
about 40 ways to structure it

15:32
contractually and most of the ones the

15:34
the lifetime income streams that we

15:37
um you know structure for people in all

15:38
50 states uh the annuity companies on

15:40
the hook to pay

15:42
but if you your learjet hits the

15:43
mountain and you die

15:45
then 100 of any unused money goes to

15:47
your beneficiary so i think that's one

15:49
of the biggest misconceptions out there

15:51
as you were speaking i was thinking

15:52
about it we always think about legacy

15:55
products being life insurance and and it

15:57
really life insurance is the best legacy

15:59
product on the planet it's the best

16:00
return on investment you'll never see

16:02
because you're dead

16:03
but it it transfers tax-free probate

16:06
free lump sum but in a diminished

16:09
capacity planning

16:11
scenario

16:13
lifetime income annuities with a cash

16:16
refund that that all the money goes to

16:18
the family or the trust if you die

16:21
to me

16:22
that's a really good legacy product as

16:24
well

16:25
would you agree

16:27
i'd agree and i'd even add to that that

16:29
the legacy doesn't have to necessarily

16:31
be a lump sum so

16:33
just as a different example of that

16:35
um i had some life insurance that had

16:37
over six figures of cash value in it and

16:41
as we moved in in the phase of life

16:43
didn't need that we had some other

16:44
insurance

16:45
um as you know there's a thing called

16:47
the 1035 exchange it allows you to

16:49
exchange it the cash value tax free to

16:52
an annuity and by the way for the people

16:54
out there 10 35 as a reference to the

16:56
irs code if you're so bored you can pull

16:58
up section 1035 and read it where it's a

17:01
non-taxable event does not trigger any

17:04
taxes and i i do agree with you steve

17:05
that you can set up what's called

17:07
installment refund which i always joke

17:09
with my two daughters that i don't want

17:11
them getting the cash refund because

17:12
they'll just show up

17:13
at the funeral and the lamborghini i

17:15
want to making payments on the

17:16
lamborghini you know they're going to

17:17
show in it anyway so but yeah you can

17:20
structure the death benefit of an

17:22
annuity it's customizable you could have

17:25
a cash refund you could have installment

17:26
refund installment refund in essence is

17:28
a period certain to a life expectancy

17:31
you can do whatever you want

17:33
the annuity companies are just going to

17:35
bid on it because this is a commodity

17:36
product i apologize for interrupting but

17:39
go ahead

17:40
well and i'll just add the third point

17:42
so you know you could do the lump sum as

17:44
we started with and then you said you

17:46
can do installment sure i'll put you in

17:48
the mindset of a a person my age and

17:51
what we looked at because i've been

17:52
married for you know 42 years we looked

17:55
and said that life insurance was on my

17:57
life if i

17:58
who's the main bread winner die you had

18:01
this money but we're at that phase where

18:03
it's not as big an issue but you still

18:05
now want an income we have social

18:07
security and other things so what we did

18:10
is actually

18:11
have that annuity pay over our joint

18:14
life

18:15
and so to me that's a death benefit in

18:17
the sense that we don't know which one

18:19
of us will go first

18:20
but

18:21
my wife will take comfort in knowing

18:23
that if i'm the first one to go and you

18:25
know it's always the other one that's

18:26
going to go first absolutely yeah that's

18:29
just a rule of thumb um she will have

18:32
the death benefit but the death benefit

18:34
is an income stream and a retiree thinks

18:36
of income streams more than lump sum so

18:38
that's where i was going with that idea

18:40
and what people need to understand about

18:42
joint life income stream with steve was

18:44
was um just explaining

18:46
is that income stream continues

18:48
uninterrupted and unchanged

18:50
for the life of the spouse or partner

18:53
which i think is a lot of you know a lot

18:56
of the the people that getting back to

18:57
the diminished capacity um category in

19:00
the in the topic

19:02
a lot of those a personality gentlemen

19:04
that call me and set up the lifetime

19:05
joint lifetime income they're taking

19:07
care of their wives and that's that's

19:08
admirable but i do um i find myself

19:11
pivoting more and more speaking to

19:13
people about

19:14
you know i know you're sharp as attack

19:16
now fred or whoever the guy's name is or

19:18
ladies name is francine but have you

19:21
thought about when you're not hitting it

19:22
on all cylinders and

19:24
what you need to do to put something in

19:26
place so that you're that your heirs

19:28
don't have to deal with that from a

19:30
durable power of attorney standpoint i

19:32
know you're a lawyer and you specialize

19:34
in these type of things

19:36
do you see that being more prevalent i

19:38
know that you teach that within your

19:40
courses at the american college but do

19:42
you see that being more prevalent as we

19:43
get older

19:46
that's uh certifiable i mean in other

19:48
words there's plenty of actual hard data

19:52
to talk about age is

19:54
one of the key determinants in

19:56
diminished capacity i mean certainly

19:58
there are other uh morbidity issues that

20:00
can get you but but unquestionably if

20:02
you say what's the biggest one we all

20:04
know that as you get older

20:06
your

20:07
mental your the sounds a little scary

20:09
but your capacity probably starts

20:12
slowing down around age 50 that doesn't

20:15
mean that we've all lost it after 50.

20:16
but that's i can vouch for that i can

20:18
vouch for that steve it's it's starting

20:20
to slip

20:21
[Laughter]

20:24
but it is what it is i mean and it's

20:26
something that uh as an estate planning

20:29
um expert like you are and by the way

20:32
you know who you're listening to is

20:33
steve parish he's got cowboy boots older

20:35
than most of you out there

20:37
uh that's that's even looked at

20:38
investments he's been doing this for

20:40
over four decades we're going to have a

20:41
specific page set up for him

20:43
on my site at theannuityman.com so you

20:45
can re-listen to this and if you want to

20:46
shoot him an email you can

20:49
but but he is one of the

20:51
gurus in our space

20:54
and a thought leader in our space when

20:56
it comes to

20:59
retirement life insurance annuities

21:01
understand that life insurance companies

21:02
issue annuities

21:04
one of the other things i want to kind

21:05
of pivot to is is what you have done a

21:08
lot of work on which is called

21:10
phased retirement

21:12
can you kind of dig into that so the

21:14
listeners and viewers can understand

21:16
what phase retirement is

21:18
and how that applies to them and what

21:20
they might need to do

21:22
i'd love to because that's just

21:24
something i'm experiencing and feeling

21:26
good about it and i'll start with a

21:27
personal example that my father got his

21:30
law degree after world war ii

21:32
became an fbi agent

21:34
and guess what the fbi

21:36
doesn't want you uh working till you're

21:38
70. and so his encore career sometimes

21:41
that's a term used was to be a professor

21:44
in the last i don't know 10 years my

21:47
brother was a business executive after

21:48
doing one too many mergers in his

21:50
acquisitions um in his last phase he

21:53
became a professor and guess what i was

21:55
a financial advisor and worked as an

21:58
executive at an insurance company this

22:00
is my last phase so that would be an

22:01
example of

22:03
a family that does phase retirement but

22:05
what i'm getting at for most people

22:08
is that the market has changed you're

22:10
going to live longer on average actually

22:13
and jobs generally have become less

22:17
manual there's not as many ditch diggers

22:20
and so that means you're going to live

22:22
longer and the kind of job you're

22:24
involved in you may be able to do longer

22:27
so

22:28
people are looking and going either

22:30
because they want to work more or

22:32
because they need to work more

22:34
they'd like to have some options the

22:36
phase retirement and there's certainly a

22:38
lot of data suggesting this is where

22:39
people are going the golden watch

22:41
concept of you know you work your 40

22:43
years you get to go and watch and you're

22:44
done really doesn't um

22:47
show up that much in data certainly

22:49
people do it so look at it this way you

22:52
can be you can't be a ditch digger that

22:55
works to 70 realistically right but you

22:58
could be a customer service rep that

23:00
could work to 70 if you need to or if

23:02
you want to sure and maybe you don't

23:05
want to commute to manhattan until

23:08
you're 70

23:09
but would be fine on working from your

23:12
office at home until 70. that's what i

23:15
do i work from from home so phased

23:18
retirement is

23:19
it can either be with the employer you

23:21
have because a lot of employers are

23:22
doing this and kobe 19 certainly made it

23:25
happen where you had to work from home

23:27
whoever knew what zoom was we thought

23:29
that meant a fast car no clue i had no

23:31
clue what that was but it's amazing

23:33
what's what's changing hold that thought

23:35
for a second i was just thinking as you

23:36
talk my parents were both they retired

23:38
as as

23:40
school teachers in the state of north

23:41
carolina and their uh encore um

23:44
i guess job after that is they were

23:46
volunteer well they they were paid i

23:48
call them volunteer they get paid a lot

23:50
at the charlotte coliseum and they would

23:52
they would go to the hornets games and

23:54
they were ushers and they'd see all the

23:55
concerts so they saw every game in every

23:58
concert that went through charlotte that

24:00
was their encore um job after the real

24:03
job uh so when you said that i'm like

24:05
yeah you know my parents kind of did

24:06
that which was cool they would tell me

24:07
about the grateful dead concert or the

24:09
ac dc concert they just saw and i'm like

24:12
that's incredible so keep going with the

24:14
phase retirement this is interesting

24:16
yeah it's it's where things are going

24:18
whether we like it or not and i think we

24:20
should like it because employers are are

24:22
accommodating that kind of thing i don't

24:23
have to be uh the college is actually

24:26
philadelphia and i'm sitting here in st

24:27
augustine

24:28
so

24:29
you can do that kind of thing now the

24:31
reason i'm interested in that from a

24:33
financial standpoint is that means

24:36
you're also phasing your your finances

24:38
somewhat

24:39
so um i would

24:42
state that social security is almost

24:45
always something you want to delay

24:48
taking as long as you can ideally at age

24:50
70. well if you have that kind of thing

24:53
and you're but you want to retire before

24:55
that

24:56
that's where i was thinking about things

24:57
like annuities because they can be

24:59
bridge assets they can kind of carry you

25:02
over so that you can leave that let's

25:05
say it's a six-figure job and now what

25:08
you're going to be doing is working

25:10
part-time or some of its volunteers

25:12
you're not making as much your cash flow

25:14
has slowed down but you don't want to

25:16
start taking social security

25:18
so

25:19
my my interest in phased retirement and

25:21
the financial side is what financial

25:23
assets can we do to help you bridge and

25:26
to provide some of that cash flow to

25:28
accommodate this change in your life

25:32
interesting

25:33
interesting i i and i think that

25:36
as people get older and the funny thing

25:38
about cova not funny it's been tragic

25:40
but i think the interesting thing about

25:42
covid

25:43
is i believe that it will actually

25:45
increase our life expectancy because

25:47
it's been a wake-up call from a health

25:48
standpoint for all of us to get a little

25:50
bit more healthy

25:52
even though the government doesn't want

25:53
to say that i guess that's not

25:55
politically correct for them to say hey

25:57
let's get in shape let's lose some

25:58
weight but i think we all are saying

26:00
wait a minute life is fragile

26:02
and i do think life expectancies after

26:04
we come out of this cova thing

26:06
will be longer because

26:09
the one great thing about this country

26:11
is that we learn

26:13
and we adapt and we try not to get hit

26:17
with the same type of problem you know

26:19
two times in a row and i do think that

26:21
there is so much proactivity on the

26:24
on the the biotech side and the

26:26
pharmaceutical side that that's just a

26:28
great part about this country do you

26:30
agree with that do you think it will

26:31
come out of this and maybe

26:33
life expectancy might increase

26:37
i think uh that's a it's a given unless

26:39
we have something you know a black swan

26:41
event as they call it again like this

26:43
but but what's going on is really last

26:46
year was interesting if you think about

26:47
this

26:48
is

26:49
um

26:50
mortality increased basically meaning

26:53
people were dying one year sooner from a

26:56
pure mortality standpoint last year and

27:00
yet

27:01
the irs has new tables kicking in in

27:03
january one of this next year where they

27:06
assume your life expectancy is two years

27:09
longer than it has been in the past

27:12
meaning that you need these because the

27:14
irs basically says if you have iras

27:17
once you hit 72 we're going to make you

27:19
take some of those out we have to use

27:21
these mortality tables and actually they

27:24
are assuming that people my age are

27:26
going to live two years longer than in

27:27
the past so

27:29
where i'm going with this stan is

27:31
yes there was a hit to mortality but it

27:35
was very much in the elderly market put

27:38
away the tvs and all that it was

27:40
basically in kind of that 80 plus market

27:42
it was otherwise mortality really

27:45
in macro wasn't that much and technology

27:49
continues to improve and as you point

27:51
out i think people maybe are getting

27:53
better about their their personal habits

27:56
especially when people retire they they

27:57
tend to realize their new job is

28:00
to take care of themselves now i agree

28:02
it kind of feeds into what um i was

28:04
doing a podcast with tom hagner the

28:05
other day and he's pounding the table

28:07
literally in saint stan at this time the

28:11
mortality credits are a bargain

28:14
he he just thinks that the mortality

28:16
credits right now you should take

28:18
advantage of it because just remember if

28:19
if the prediction of the annuity company

28:22
is that you're going to live longer that

28:23
means they're going to be more payments

28:25
which means the payments will be lower

28:27
that's that's the

28:28
that's the simplistic explanation of

28:31
what tom was pounding the table on on

28:33
mortality credits and it and it really

28:35
kind of leads into what you were saying

28:36
which is yes there was a blip in the

28:38
screen and not to be not to be morbid

28:42
but a lot of those people were very

28:44
close to passing away

28:46
um at the age eight in the 88 range and

28:49
they just did with covet unfortunately

28:52
it was tragic

28:53
um

28:55
and i had three friends my age die

28:58
tragically too so it happened all over

29:00
but the point is

29:01
i do think that

29:03
you know people always ask me is it the

29:05
right time to buy annuities and they're

29:07
always focused on the interest rate part

29:10
of it which is a secondary pricing

29:11
mechanism for life expectancy i think

29:14
between you and what tom hegman you know

29:16
i've done some others with with wade and

29:18
jamie they're all saying hey i think

29:20
it's actually a good time that's not a

29:22
sales pitch that's just a

29:24
factual and mathematical reality

29:27
of what's happened and i and i just find

29:29
it interesting once again steve if me

29:31
and you were running the annuity

29:33
industry the ads would would already be

29:35
running

29:36
take it take advantage of today's

29:38
mortality credits lock in your lifetime

29:40
income

29:41
right now

29:43
yeah people don't understand and i i get

29:46
why because it can be complicated but

29:48
risk pooling there is no way you as an

29:50
individual yes can plan for your average

29:53
age the fact is if your life's

29:55
expectancy is 84 you might live to 94.

29:59
and what are you going to do then you

30:00
know

30:01
are you gonna

30:02
eat cat food and live in your car

30:04
so you can only you have to plan for

30:07
longer mortality than the life

30:09
expectancy table say that the insurance

30:11
company doesn't have the same problem

30:13
they can price their products

30:16
for average mortality and so

30:19
what you're doing is you're essentially

30:21
letting them have the problem of who

30:23
dies first rather than you having it and

30:26
so that's that that mortality the

30:27
premium that jamie your waiter talk

30:30
about that's what we're getting you

30:32
can't personally do that you have to

30:34
kind of buy your way into that with the

30:36
insurance company and that's again why

30:38
people like me go out and buy annuities

30:40
it just makes sense because i don't want

30:42
to have to worry about it i got other

30:43
things to do

30:44
you said the word plan in there and it

30:46
jumped out in my head about

30:49
kind of the current

30:51
you know current tax law it's kind of in

30:53
flux you wrote an article recently that

30:55
that jumped out because i remember when

30:56
you said that i'm like there was an

30:58
arguably good briefs on that about how

30:59
to plan how do you plan right now

31:02
when you know washington dc is as

31:05
dysfunctional and that's saying a lot

31:08
as we've ever seen it um

31:10
and and you know whether they're

31:12
dysfunctional or not there's 60 there's

31:14
there's you know 10 000 people turning

31:16
65 every day they've got to do something

31:19
they got a plan

31:20
all right steve parish ball's on your

31:22
court what do we do

31:24
well and i i tend to uh eat my own word

31:28
sometimes in the last few weeks because

31:30
we're all going through this and

31:32
i just saw a couple hours ago the latest

31:35
version has come out um

31:37
one thing i've said that might help just

31:39
as a way of thinking about it is you

31:41
know how a traffic light works so you

31:43
have green yellow and the red in my mind

31:47
is the things that congress people come

31:49
up with that you know is not going to

31:51
pass so maybe on the more liberal side

31:54
it could be this big wealth tax on the

31:55
more conservative side they've talked

31:57
about getting rid of the estate tax

31:59
right neither one of those are likely to

32:01
happen don't build that into your

32:02
planning i mean you know never say never

32:05
but

32:06
it's not going to happen be rational be

32:08
rational certainly

32:10
just wait and find out what happens now

32:11
the green light means people have

32:14
forgotten that there is a thing called

32:16
the secure act that was passed

32:18
back at the you know just before covet

32:21
hit and most people haven't changed

32:22
their plans to deal with that for

32:24
example now you don't have to take

32:26
required minimum distributions until 72

32:29
you staff take it at 70 and a half

32:32
once you pass on and if you have a

32:34
inherited annuities the rules change

32:36
quite a way a bit

32:38
what i'm getting at is that's green

32:40
light that is tax law and let's worry

32:42
about the existing stuff like that

32:44
before we worry about what they're doing

32:47
in disneyland east otherwise known as dc

32:52
and i guess the

32:53
where you're probably wondering okay

32:54
what's the yellow light that's the

32:55
caution one but you know what i'm

32:57
figuring out and this is someone who's

33:00
an a tax attorney in many ways

33:03
a lot of those really only deal with f

33:06
very affluent to wealthy people

33:09
um

33:10
so a lot of the things being talked

33:12
about we've been rushing around madly

33:14
and we most of us have realized we

33:16
probably

33:17
were right to just hold because they

33:19
keep changing the rules so how do you

33:22
plan for it

33:24
when you really scrub all that away a

33:26
lot of that is noise you plan for it the

33:28
way you would have before congress got

33:30
at it or after a lot of the rules aren't

33:32
going to change i mean the taxation of

33:34
annuities i don't think is going to

33:36
change there's nothing out there to

33:37
suggest it so long way of saying you go

33:40
with the green stuff keep an eye out for

33:42
the yellow but for most consumers a lot

33:45
of that is for the

33:46
ultra high net worth and

33:48
high net worth individual and i think

33:50
that's a great way to look at it which

33:52
is the green is what what we need to

33:53
plan for right now

33:55
the yellow is is something that you can

33:57
rationally see happening red stuff like

34:00
another red one that i i think is red

34:02
hope it's red is i've read some things

34:04
about our friends in dc

34:07
messing around with the roth ira

34:10
and um

34:11
i i have predicted that ever since you

34:13
know they walked out of the building and

34:15
passed the roth ira i'm like they're

34:17
trying to figure out how to tax it

34:19
because and hopefully that is a red one

34:21
but that might be a yellow one for now

34:23
just to see what they're going to do but

34:25
i do think that people need to get up to

34:27
speed and we can get you up to speed if

34:29
needed on on the

34:30
secure act and all of the stuff that's

34:32
green

34:33
that's going to be there um so that you

34:36
can make those plans but i certainly

34:38
wouldn't

34:39
hesitate or put off a plan

34:42
based upon some newscast

34:45
or something you read because

34:48
um nobody really knows you know

34:51
especially in the climate that we're in

34:53
yeah the things that are the at the

34:56
planning level that we deal with are if

34:58
you're going to sell a business maybe

35:00
you sell it now so you keep the capital

35:02
gains down or

35:03
um some very sophisticated trust

35:05
planning with life insurance but in the

35:07
world that a lot of what you deal with

35:10
annuities and roths and all that

35:13
um i don't think there's anything to

35:14
worry about you know they're talking

35:15
about putting a maximum on roth i wish i

35:18
had the kind of money they're talking

35:19
about you know these are very large

35:21
amounts before you have to worry about

35:23
it so

35:24
well what triggered the whole raw thing

35:26
is the the hedge fund guy that started

35:28
with the roth

35:29
and he put his five thousand now it's

35:31
worth five billion yeah um and that made

35:34
everybody mad um and he played by the

35:36
rules now he's he had some insight and

35:39
some sweetheart deals from the

35:41
standpoint of ipos and things like that

35:42
we can go into that later but that's

35:44
what's triggered all this is one guy

35:47
now that has a 5 billion with a b dollar

35:50
roth ira that he can now take out tax

35:52
free and that's driving some dc

35:54
politicians absolutely batty which i

35:58
think is kind of it's kind of funny um

36:01
steve some of the courses that you teach

36:03
at the american college

36:05
um just uh

36:07
are just fantastic i i wish

36:09
that in the future those could be you

36:11
could do maybe a hillsdale college model

36:13
or hillsdale college teaches a course to

36:16
their students on the constitution but

36:18
they open it up to the public

36:21
i'm not some right winger i'm not a

36:22
left-winger i'm a capitalist but i think

36:24
that's a good idea but in looking at

36:26
your courses you know

36:29
one of them that kind of jumped out was

36:30
just managing the income plan and i know

36:33
that you're you're approaching it in

36:35
your in your course content to the

36:37
advisor and the agent and the roa and

36:40
and the c you know the cfp and those

36:42
people

36:43
and the semas

36:46
for the consumer

36:47
managing the retirement plan means what

36:50
to you

36:51
that's a that's a great way of looking

36:53
at it because we only have so much

36:54
bandwidth and interest

36:57
and

36:58
really manage first of all think that

36:59
retirement is not just an event

37:03
people think well i take care of

37:04
medicare i take care of social security

37:06
and everything else continues the same

37:08
not not really

37:10
um especially when you truly retire

37:12
you're going to have time in your hand

37:14
you're going to be with your spouse in a

37:16
way you've never been before all those

37:18
kind of things so you have to kind of

37:19
think of it as truly a change in life so

37:22
part of it is the

37:23
behavioral or emotional part not the

37:25
money right as far as when the the

37:27
events you think about for money i would

37:29
just bring up three key things one is

37:32
your social security decision is

37:34
absolutely key even

37:37
for the affluent because of the way it's

37:39
structured you can take it between 62

37:41
and 70 and it makes a huge amount of

37:43
difference

37:44
for the rest of your life

37:46
medicare is incredibly complex i

37:50
apologize i don't know why i didn't come

37:52
up with the law it's nice to have

37:54
um but you see all the things going on

37:56
in tv because we're in open enrollment

37:58
right you really need to make that

38:00
decision

38:02
very thoughtfully and you got to do it

38:04
at 65 you can't put it off so those are

38:07
the two

38:08
big ones but the third one that people

38:11
are still slow to to think about is what

38:14
i mentioned before our parents or our

38:17
grandparents had to find benefit pension

38:19
plans so they had a company provided

38:22
knowing they knew they were going to get

38:24
some money that would take care of a lot

38:26
of it

38:27
now they have 401k so suddenly have to

38:30
decide what to do with it also even if

38:33
you had other savings my parents would

38:35
have had savings bonds and pass book

38:38
accounts they called it back then

38:39
basically bank and savings bonds well

38:42
now we have mutual funds and you know we

38:44
have efts and all these different things

38:47
so the third stool of that if you take

38:49
medicare social security

38:52
is what do you do with your

38:54
your 401k the qualified side and what do

38:57
you do with your other savings the

38:59
non-qualified side because no one else

39:02
is going to do it for you that's

39:03
something people like you and i have to

39:05
deal with that our parents or

39:06
grandparents did not deal with

39:09
and the word that's used a lot of times

39:11
because the

39:12
401k side is the building up of assets

39:15
is accumulation and then i think falsely

39:19
we use the word decumulation which just

39:21
sounds like decomposing uh i think we

39:24
need to change that to you know

39:26
transitioning to income transitioning to

39:29
a pension because i think the latest

39:31
stat that i read is i think it's less

39:33
than nine percent of all

39:35
you know private companies offer a

39:37
defined benefit type pension plan which

39:39
means that everyone else if you're not

39:41
working for the government or a very

39:43
good labor union has to figure out how

39:46
to create a lifetime income stream and

39:47
this is where the annuity industry by

39:48
default going to look like heroes they

39:51
have the only product type that will

39:52
provide a lifetime income stream so

39:54
they're sitting right in front of it of

39:56
the demographic tidal wave uh what makes

39:58
me frustrated steve is that

40:02
most carriers are pushing the growth

40:05
story instead of the income story now i

40:07
understand it's it's a revenue issue

40:10
from the standpoint of you know the

40:12
growth products you know create more

40:13
commission and revenue and all this

40:15
stuff

40:16
which could easily be solved if we just

40:18
put all annuities at the same commission

40:19
level which i know is never going to

40:20
happen

40:21
but you know i can dream steve i can

40:23
dream about six-pack abs i can dream

40:25
about that i can dream about the new

40:27
industry telling people about lifetime

40:30
income

40:31
um

40:32
but

40:32
that's

40:33
managing your plan i think does come

40:35
down to those three things that you

40:36
mentioned since that was so good

40:39
i wrote down another one of your your um

40:42
courses

40:44
is the sources of retirement income

40:47
and i think it would be beneficial to

40:50
the the listeners and viewers for you to

40:52
kind of look at it from a consumer

40:54
standpoint

40:55
and remind people of those sources some

40:57
of them are pretty glaring

40:59
but you need to you know as you're

41:01
building your income floor as i tell

41:03
people and that's the amount of money

41:04
that's in your bank account every single

41:06
month regardless of who's in office

41:08
what contributes to that income floor

41:12
yeah i'm glad you asked it that way

41:14
because

41:15
it sounds like you probably think the

41:16
same way i do i don't like it when you

41:18
say what's your number at retirement

41:21
what's that mean

41:23
you can't spend a million well yeah you

41:25
could spend a million dollars

41:27
but spend

41:28
you'd be sorry you did it's really what

41:30
income you're getting so you're looking

41:32
at your sources of it and your sources

41:34
are either going to basically come from

41:36
the government like social security

41:39
or they're going to come from um income

41:42
that you have from an annuity or from

41:45
your employer if you do have defined

41:47
benefit

41:48
or it's going to come from capital

41:51
which means your investments

41:53
here's a i think a handy way of thinking

41:56
about it and when i say this due to

41:58
consumers they kind of go ahead and look

42:00
at it this way

42:01
when you're accumulating your assets

42:04
really what you know what is your target

42:07
is to is your return on the money so if

42:10
you made eight percent in the market

42:11
this year great

42:13
what's your risk well we can get fancy

42:15
and talk about standard deviation and

42:17
all that but basically the risk is

42:19
volatility or you know default that kind

42:22
of stuff

42:23
not so once you retire once you actually

42:25
retire

42:26
what's your return is not what you got

42:28
in your investment your return is what

42:30
you're paying yourself each month

42:33
because that's you're retired your human

42:35
capital is gone you're not out there in

42:37
value

42:38
you're not really investing you're

42:39
you're i liked accumulating but whatever

42:42
you want to call it you said human

42:44
capital that's you know

42:46
are they copying you steve because all i

42:47
hear now is is human infrastructure

42:51
i think they someone someone absconded

42:54
your uh

42:55
you're saying so human capital what's

42:57
human capital again

42:59
the ability to work so there you go

43:02
yeah i mean if and i've seen that with a

43:04
lot of people say i'm going to retire

43:06
for a few years and see how it goes but

43:08
their licenses expired or they're

43:10
staying up in the industry stop and

43:12
their contacts went away their human

43:13
capital expires right

43:16
so if that goes away then you really

43:18
have to replace it somewhere and just to

43:20
finish the the thought i had on that

43:23
is think about it when you retire your

43:26
return is whatever you pay yourself

43:28
what's the risk in retirement the risk

43:30
is essentially that you run out of money

43:32
before you run out of oxygen right

43:35
do you really care if you have zero i

43:37
mean unless you want to leave a legacy

43:39
but you can take care of that with other

43:40
things like life insurance

43:42
you know so

43:44
you have to look at it different and

43:45
it's a long way of answering your

43:47
question about sources of income

43:49
really in retirement that's your bogey

43:52
is

43:53
is income um so that can come from those

43:56
things i said but in many cases the

43:58
tricky part is taking the part of it

44:00
that's capital investments and all that

44:02
and figuring out the magical way to turn

44:05
that into retirement income and

44:06
obviously that's why we're talking about

44:08
annuities and things because sure

44:10
that's the one that tells you you will

44:12
not run out of money before you run out

44:14
of oxygen because it's going to pay out

44:16
during your lifetime

44:18
you know as long as you're breathing and

44:19
i always tell people you need to figure

44:21
out how much risk you want to transfer

44:22
and how much risk you on a shoulder

44:24
and annuities aren't for everybody i

44:26
have the 85 year old that says you know

44:29
i'm fine in the markets go for it knock

44:31
yourself out if you don't need to

44:32
transfer risk fine and then i might have

44:34
the 47 year old that goes i'm tired of

44:36
it

44:37
okay

44:38
um and any they need to transfer risk

44:41
kind of to close out because i think

44:43
that um

44:45
yeah this has been fascinating for me

44:47
because just to just to be able to sit

44:48
down with someone like you that's had so

44:50
much experience in the field and your

44:52
your fingers on the pulse of things that

44:55
are new which is also unique that you

44:58
bring all this experience to the table

44:59
but yet when you're you know you work

45:01
for the american college you're with

45:02
everyone else who's the thought leader

45:04
which is exceptional um

45:07
the retirement income process

45:10
and you teach a course called retirement

45:12
income process strategies and solutions

45:15
and i apologize for keep going back to

45:17
your courses but once again

45:19
these are the type of courses that i

45:21
think would be so beneficial for the

45:22
consumer which is the reason i do the

45:24
podcast because i bring you on to talk

45:26
about it

45:27
what's the process what's the strategies

45:29
and solutions that you haven't already

45:32
covered that maybe be a nugget of wisdom

45:34
for the for the consumer out there

45:37
that's either pre-retired retired post

45:39
retired or just trying to be better at

45:41
retirement

45:43
that's a fair question so without going

45:45
through the

45:46
the 10 steps that we teach sure in uh

45:49
doing the process you think about first

45:52
of all what are you going to need in

45:53
retirement and it's not necessarily

45:56
going to be 100 of what you had

45:58
pre-retirement in most cases it's going

46:00
to be somewhat less

46:02
but just because somebody on the

46:04
internet said it was 80 of what you made

46:06
pre-retirement isn't necessarily correct

46:08
you have to think about what expenses am

46:10
i going to have so first of all

46:12
what amount of income

46:14
the other part of that is is it

46:16
something that you want to tilt heavily

46:18
towards the early years of retirement

46:21
you've probably heard that term

46:22
go go years versus the slogo years

46:25
versus the no go

46:27
go go slow go

46:29
no-go no-go i love it if you think about

46:32
it most people are that way you retire

46:35
and by and now he has covets being

46:37
contained you can get in that plane and

46:39
go take your grandkids to disneyland or

46:42
make that european trip you never got

46:43
around to you may actually end up

46:45
spending more

46:47
at the early part of retirement then

46:49
you're going to slow down and not

46:50
necessarily go to restaurants and as

46:52
much and that kind of thing and then the

46:54
no-go years are

46:55
are in frailty

46:57
so part of it is a kind of and you don't

46:59
have to be an actuary to do it but kind

47:01
of lay out what you think that

47:04
needed cash flow is going to be that's

47:06
part of the process

47:08
part of it is to picture um to really

47:12
envision

47:13
what you're going to do in retirement in

47:15
fact i should have put that first what

47:17
how do you define retirement right or

47:19
people like me and saying it'll work

47:20
until you know you're going to have to

47:21
take me out in a gurney but the fact is

47:24
you have to kind of think through

47:26
what is it going to be like and what are

47:27
my risks so um in my forbes column i

47:30
always talk about i deal with risk in

47:33
retirement because people always talk

47:34
about retirement income sure

47:36
but that's fine but what happens if you

47:39
you know have long-term care issue or

47:42
your spouse dies

47:44
that has both financial emotional issues

47:46
so you identify your risks

47:49
then you start thinking about what we

47:51
already talked about sources of income

47:53
because i will just i can't emphasize it

47:55
enough big issues like when you take

47:57
social security how you tap your home

48:00
equity like reverse mortgages those kind

48:02
of concepts and how you structure your

48:05
taxes make a huge amount of difference

48:07
we haven't even mentioned that but

48:09
annuities have at least not qualified

48:11
annuities have the advantage of

48:12
spreading out your taxation

48:14
so you work through those kind of things

48:17
and and then you start figuring out how

48:20
am i how am i going to deal with it once

48:22
i retire because we talked about

48:23
diminished capacity

48:26
have i taken care of making sure i have

48:28
a power of attorney do i have a will all

48:30
those kind of things

48:32
so that when the the the date comes you

48:36
feel like you have a plan um don't let

48:38
anybody fool you that you know you have

48:40
to spend a billion dollars to do this

48:43
but you do need to go through that

48:45
because you've never retired before so

48:47
you have to envision what that is and

48:49
think through the process and it's more

48:51
complicated than it was for

48:53
past generations again because the

48:55
government or your employer is not just

48:57
making it easy for you

48:59
that's well put and i do encourage

49:01
everybody that and it's hard just it's

49:03
hard to tell people this but

49:06
when people get to phase two of their

49:08
life chapter two

49:10
um slow go slow go go slow go or no go

49:14
you know you have to enjoy yourself

49:15
you've you've worked hard out there

49:17
you've checked the boxes you've scrimped

49:19
you've saved you've planned

49:22
and people sometimes forget

49:24
to focus in on themselves and take care

49:26
of themselves and do some things that

49:27
you probably didn't expect to do or want

49:29
to do or plan on doing but now you've

49:31
worked hard and you can do it

49:33
um annuities aren't the cure-all for

49:36
anything but they can provide that base

49:38
income for you to go do that and um and

49:41
enjoy yourself steve parish it's been a

49:43
blast we've kind of blown through a

49:45
bunch of time here but

49:47
um i really do appreciate you coming on

49:49
i'm going to hold you to it but i hope

49:51
that you will

49:52
come on again when uh when a flash of

49:55
lightning hits you when you or else i

49:57
read one of your articles and and call

49:58
you i hope that you come on again any

50:01
last words as we close this thing out

50:04
well i just want to keep emphasizing

50:06
that idea of a income because something

50:09
you said deals with a conversation we

50:11
had just yesterday one of them was with

50:12
wade fowle who's been one of your

50:14
people before and i said because of my

50:17
age the world is one big lab where i see

50:19
friends uh deal with retirement if you

50:22
know what retirement income you have and

50:25
it's

50:26
enough i mean so that you can pay for

50:28
your housing and that kind of thing

50:29
people are incredibly adaptable and so i

50:32
know people who were captains of

50:34
industry when they were working and now

50:36
are running around with you know a

50:38
coupon to denny's and all excited about

50:41
it but you know what stan they're not

50:43
unhappy they really kind of have adapted

50:46
and changed um because they know what

50:48
they have to work with right and there's

50:50
so much stress when you retire and

50:53
you're so used to earning a paycheck and

50:55
now you're not getting one

50:57
that's one of the reasons i like this

50:59
whole idea of a known income because

51:01
that's the way people think in

51:02
retirement is right don't talk about my

51:05
number just tell me what i'm getting a

51:07
month and so

51:08
i think that's important is convert it

51:10
into income in any way you can build

51:13
build that income floor absolutely steve

51:15
parish thank you so much for joining us

51:17
and thank you to all the listeners and

51:19
viewers for watching and listening to

51:21
the number one annuity podcast on the

51:23
planet and it just happens to be called

51:25
fun

51:26
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51:31
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51:33
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51:38
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51:40
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52:06
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52:09
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52:12
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52:36
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