085 Bob Carlson: The Good News and Gotchas Around Tax Wise Investing

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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[Music]

0:39
welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

0:41
host stan the annuity man america's

0:44
annuity agent license in all 50 states

0:46
welcome everyone on all major podcast

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platforms and also

0:50
on the fun with annuities youtube

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channel where you can see me and the

0:53
guest interact

0:55
we have a repeat guest because he

0:57
there's no way we can ever get all the

1:00
information out of his head

1:02
he is known affectionately as an

1:04
america's number one retirement expert

1:07
which coincides with me being america's

1:09
annuity agent but he truly is

1:12
one of the most knowledgeable people i

1:14
know in the field of of retirement and

1:16
that covers a lot of things but today's

1:18
topic

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um we're going to talk about taxes now

1:21
his name is bob carlson he you can find

1:23
him at

1:24
retirement retirementwatch.com i'm going

1:26
to have a page set up for him just like

1:29
just like i did for the last time that

1:30
we had a i had him on for the podcast

1:33
and i do encourage you to go to his site

1:35
and sign up for his uh free e-letter and

1:38
all that stuff he i mean his site

1:40
you could spend a month there and never

1:42
get two half of it there's that much

1:44
there i was on it just right before we

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went on and i just holy mackerel there's

1:48
a lot of stuff but then again

1:49
bob carlson's been doing this a long

1:51
time bob welcome to fun with annuities

1:54
thank you stan good to be here great

1:56
let's talk taxes i'm just going to kind

1:58
of throw you the ball a little bit

2:00
because there's a

2:02
the phone's ringing off the hook on my

2:03
end um about you know what's being

2:06
proposed what's in the books what's

2:09
gonna happen

2:10
can you just jump in and just start

2:12
talking taxes to

2:14
uh the people out there that love to

2:16
hear what you have to say

2:18
sure sure there's a there's a lot

2:21
well there's a lot being talked about in

2:22
washington there's not a lot going on

2:24
yet

2:25
uh been a lot of proposals counter

2:27
proposals negotiations

2:29
so basically nothing's been done

2:31
nothing's been agreed on

2:34
uh but there are a lot of really

2:36
actually scary proposals out there for a

2:38
lot of people

2:39
increases in income tax rates uh

2:42
dramatic changes in the estate tax that

2:44
would eliminate

2:46
a lot of strategies that have been in

2:48
place for decades and used by many

2:50
different people

2:52
um

2:53
changes to iras

2:55
other things all these things are in the

2:57
wor or being proposed

2:59
but there's always just enough votes so

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far to keep them from reaching agreement

3:03
so

3:05
you know it's hard to say what's going

3:07
to pass by the end of 2021 or if

3:10
anything is going to pass

3:11
apparently uh this week the last week in

3:14
october it's kind of the make or break

3:16
week according to most people in

3:18
congress although

3:20
in the past

3:21
they have come back after election day

3:24
and made deals in november and december

3:26
so that's still a possibility

3:29
but you know

3:30
you can't say anything definite is is

3:33
agreed to or ready to go there's a lot

3:35
of things uh

3:36
that seem to have been agreed to at

3:38
various points in these last few months

3:40
but then a week later reports are that

3:43
someone didn't like it so it's not going

3:45
through

3:46
so what we know is that a majority in

3:48
congress wants to increase taxes

3:51
but it doesn't know or can't agree on

3:53
which taxes to increase who to increase

3:56
them on

3:57
and so it's difficult to do in a

3:58
year-end tax planning this year because

4:01
we don't know what the tax rules are

4:02
going to be next year

4:05
you know i saw something the other day

4:06
that just the word the word combination

4:09
made no sense to me

4:12
unrealized capital gains

4:14
bob

4:15
been doing this a long time with you

4:18
that's a new one on me and i know

4:20
they're only talking about the

4:21
quadrillionaires but me and you both

4:22
know that

4:24
it somehow seeps its way down unrealized

4:26
capital gains right it's uh it's also

4:29
called mark to market uh it's something

4:32
they do impose currently on futures

4:34
traders but not on anyone else and

4:36
basically

4:38
uh what the proposal is is that at the

4:40
end of each calendar year

4:42
you look at your portfolio your account

4:45
statement

4:46
and anything that has

4:48
positive appreciation in it

4:51
they're going to include that

4:53
appreciation on your tax return for the

4:55
year and tax it

4:57
and now currently they're saying we only

4:59
plan to do that on the 400 or so

5:01
billionaires in the country

5:04
uh but you know like other things it's a

5:06
foot in the door it's a

5:08
first step yeah um

5:11
and you know initially the proposal was

5:13
they would do that for estate taxes when

5:16
people died

5:17
uh they would they wanted to tax their

5:20
unrealized gains rather than stepping up

5:22
the bases at death

5:24
that was rejected by a majority of of

5:26
people in congress finally so they've

5:28
moved to this other one

5:30
where they plan to do this mark to

5:32
market at the end of each year

5:35
which the first thing i thought of was

5:37
the um

5:38
the privately held business

5:41
you know that's that's valued at a

5:43
certain level but if you tried to sell

5:45
the shares in that privately held

5:46
business it wouldn't

5:48
equate to what is being valued i mean i

5:50
just don't see how they can pull that

5:52
off

5:54
yeah the uh the people proposing it say

5:56
they've you know it's modified in

5:58
several ways it'll only be publicly held

6:00
assets and some other things so

6:03
but even so if you know someone has a

6:06
controlling interest or even a big

6:08
minority interest in a private a

6:10
publicly held company

6:12
and they have to sell off one percent of

6:14
their shares each year just to pay the

6:16
taxes

6:17
uh that's going to affect number one the

6:20
stock price

6:22
and it's going to affect a lot of stock

6:23
prices if everyone knows that the

6:25
billionaires have to sell off a first

6:27
portion of their shares by the end of

6:29
the year

6:30
and it's also going to change the way

6:31
these people invest they might take the

6:33
companies private

6:35
or they might decide they don't want to

6:36
invest in any public companies in the

6:38
future and gradually shift their

6:40
portfolio over to private so it really

6:43
has the potential to shrink the market

6:45
of publicly held shares and limit the

6:47
investment options for regular people uh

6:50
just because of this tax on billionaires

6:53
there's always a reaction to the action

6:55
and that's what i think the politicians

6:57
always miss they look at things

6:58
statically

7:00
initially and they're like well if this

7:02
if we do this then that's what we're

7:03
going to get

7:05
not the reason rich people are rich and

7:07
you know the majority of the people that

7:09
are listening to this podcast are

7:10
consumers they've scrimped and saved

7:12
they put money away and

7:15
whether they consider themselves rich or

7:17
not they probably are

7:18
uh and now it seems like everything's

7:20
targeted toward them i was on your site

7:24
and um there's a breaking story that

7:26
linked that you had about

7:28
congress coming

7:29
for people's retirement money

7:32
um explain

7:34
to the people obviously i want them to

7:35
go to your site again it's

7:37
retirementwatch.com all one word

7:39
retirementwatch.com

7:42
please pin that please put that in your

7:45
favorites what are we talking about bob

7:47
with the with congress coming after

7:49
our retirement money what's what's your

7:51
take on that

7:52
well you know congress for decades since

7:55
the early 70s has given people a lot of

7:58
incentives to put money away into

8:00
qualified retirement plans gave them

8:02
upfront tax breaks

8:05
so that they'd put that money let it

8:07
compound for years get the tax deferred

8:09
compounding and eventually take it out

8:12
and so now there's trillions of dollars

8:14
in these iras and 401ks and other

8:16
retirement plans

8:18
and congress has gotten tired of waiting

8:20
to impose the taxes on the back end

8:23
so it's trying to accelerate some of

8:25
these taxes or increase the rate on them

8:28
the big move it made was in the 2019

8:31
secure act

8:32
where it eliminated the stretch ira

8:35
right

8:35
said when people inherit an ira they can

8:37
no longer

8:39
take the required minimum distributions

8:41
over their life expectancy instead the

8:43
whole thing has to be distributed in 10

8:46
years or less

8:47
so that accelerates the taxes it also

8:49
lumps the tax the income into

8:52
a limited number of years so potentially

8:54
puts you into a higher tax bracket so

8:57
it increases taxes on inherited iras

9:00
they've also done things like if you

9:03
you know when you convert a traditional

9:05
ira to a roth ira

9:07
initially you had a chance to reverse

9:09
that in case something went wrong

9:12
uh but they also eliminated that in the

9:14
2017 tax law so you can no longer if you

9:17
convert an ira

9:19
it's a done deal you no longer get a

9:21
second chance uh

9:23
you no longer can if circumstances

9:25
change then change your your strategy so

9:28
you're stuck with that so that's

9:30
you know another hindrance on on

9:32
retirement planning another elimination

9:34
of a strategy that

9:36
that was useful to many people not just

9:38
wealthy people but just you know middle

9:40
class upper middle class people use that

9:42
very effectively

9:44
and there are more proposals to do

9:46
additional actions like this in the

9:48
future

9:49
where uh

9:50
you accelerate the money that has to be

9:52
taken out of retirement plans so it

9:54
could tax faster

9:56
of course the increase in tax rates that

9:58
are proposed would affect retirees when

10:01
they take the money out

10:02
there's also what i call the stealth

10:04
taxes uh which primarily hit retirees

10:08
things such as the tax on social

10:10
security benefits

10:11
that used to be tax-free

10:13
but they're taxed now if your income

10:15
goes above a certain level and so if you

10:18
have to take an additional dollar of

10:20
income

10:21
you not only include that dollar of

10:23
income in your taxable income

10:26
but you include up to 85 cents of your

10:29
social security benefits that you

10:31
received already

10:32
so for each dollar of extra income you

10:34
earn you're including a dollar and 85

10:37
cents in your taxable income and paying

10:39
taxes on it

10:40
there's also the medicare premium surtax

10:43
also known as irma as your income goes

10:46
up you pay higher medicare premiums

10:49
so

10:50
you know they could increase taxes on

10:52
retirees without increasing tax rates

10:55
just through these stealth taxes through

10:57
these accelerated distributions from

10:59
retirement plans and things like that

11:01
and that's

11:02
what they've been doing the last few

11:04
years and i think they're going to do

11:05
more of it going forward

11:07
what um

11:08
for everyone that just uh forgot who

11:11
that expert was that's bob carlson of

11:12
retirementwatch.com

11:14
and he is known by many and me is i mean

11:17
this is what i call he's america's

11:18
number one retirement expert i mean you

11:20
just heard him go free for him with

11:22
about a zillion things

11:24
which means you need to go to a site and

11:26
certainly just sign up for his stuff and

11:28
follow what he does

11:30
bob i have a question about roth iras i

11:32
get a lot of questions right now because

11:35
there's some proposals that the roth ira

11:39
um strategy is going to be messed with a

11:41
little bit by congress what are you

11:42
hearing i know that you have some really

11:46
direct

11:47
contact with dc

11:48
and dc certainly follows what you say

11:50
what are you hearing about the roth iras

11:53
well the uh of course they got back into

11:56
the headlines a little earlier this year

11:58
when uh

12:00
a website published uh some stolen irs

12:03
data

12:04
and said there's one billionaire who had

12:06
a five billion dollar rights iran

12:11
for the people who don't know there's a

12:12
person that started a roth ira just

12:14
under the same rules as me you and bob

12:16
and he's grown it to five billion

12:18
dollars so that made them mad because he

12:20
followed

12:22
he followed all the regular rules didn't

12:24
do anything uh

12:26
illegal or even under the table he just

12:28
uh bought paypal shares privately when

12:31
they're worth a few cents a share and

12:33
held on to them so now he has a very

12:35
valuable roth ira

12:37
so some people in congress have decided

12:39
well there's just issues with roth iras

12:42
so they're

12:43
looking at several potential changes one

12:46
would be to simply cap the amount

12:48
you can have in any kind of ira really

12:51
but particularly roth iras where they

12:53
say

12:54
if your ira goes above a certain value

12:57
then number one you cannot make any

12:59
additional contributions or conversions

13:01
but in addition uh you might be required

13:04
to distribute part of that no matter

13:07
what your age is even though uh the

13:09
original roth ira rule should be so

13:11
there'd be no required distributions but

13:13
right uh they don't want these iras

13:16
getting above a certain amount at least

13:18
some of the people in congress don't so

13:20
they're proposing that

13:22
um and then on the other end of it

13:24
they're uh

13:25
there's a secure act 2.0 that's in the

13:28
works where they're

13:30
they want to eliminate some of the

13:32
front-end benefits of 401k plans one of

13:35
the proposals is that

13:37
for employer matching contributions to

13:40
401ks after 2021

13:43
those would have to be treated as roth

13:45
contributions rather than traditional

13:48
contributions so

13:50
the employer would put it into the ira

13:52
the 401k

13:54
but the employee would have to include

13:57
the matching contribution and gross

13:58
income and pay taxes on it

14:01
uh you know that's crazy

14:03
yeah it's just thinking this up

14:06
well the way it works is uh when they

14:08
put

14:08
benefits in the tax law and there's a

14:10
lot of benefits in the secure act 2.0

14:13
uh they have to quote pay for it

14:16
by raising taxes in some other way

14:19
and that's why they eliminated the

14:21
stretch ira in the original secure act

14:23
is to pay for the other benefits and so

14:26
one of the ways they want to pay for the

14:27
benefits and secure act 2.0 is to force

14:31
some parts of 401ks into roth versions

14:35
rather than traditional versions so the

14:37
taxes are paid up front

14:39
and offsets some of the tax uh basically

14:42
revenue loss that are from the other

14:44
provisions

14:46
i always tell people when uh if if if i

14:48
was on the outside of the meeting when

14:50
they first voted for the roth and it

14:52
came through i guarantee you as they're

14:54
walking out of the meeting

14:56
congress people are trying to figure out

14:58
how to tax it

14:59
you know um and what you're saying is

15:02
that promise of never taxing the roth

15:05
ira

15:06
might just have a few asterisks beside

15:08
it saying oh except for this right

15:11
right i know some financial advisors who

15:14
from day one of the roth ira said don't

15:17
do it it's a trap eventually it's going

15:19
to be taxed

15:21
uh you're better off doing other things

15:23
rather than relying on that you know

15:26
initially social security benefits were

15:28
tax free

15:29
now for most people they're not

15:32
uh you know medicare premiums were

15:34
supposed to be the same for everybody

15:36
now if you're higher income you pay a

15:38
higher premium

15:39
and there are a lot of things like that

15:41
in the tax code where

15:43
you know initially they encouraged you

15:44
to do certain things promise you certain

15:46
tax benefits and later on they said well

15:49
it didn't really work out the way we

15:51
intended or we we need the money so

15:54
we're gonna have to change this

15:56
well um and i always tell people always

15:58
think of

16:00
like when people would always argue with

16:01
me because i'd say

16:04
there's a possibility and i remember

16:05
saying this five six years ago ten years

16:07
ago there's a possibility they'll change

16:08
the rules with roth iras and people

16:10
would would

16:11
come back no no that that's never going

16:13
to change et cetera and i always say

16:16
think of the think of the roth ira

16:18
holders as a voting bloc

16:20
it's a very very small voting block when

16:23
look it looked at the 300 million people

16:25
in this country etc so the congress

16:29
congress has no uh problem making that

16:32
small voting bloc

16:34
mad or framing that small voting block

16:37
of roth ira holders as the evil rich

16:40
they could easily do that with the

16:41
media's help

16:43
and it sounds like they're getting ready

16:44
to throw that uh

16:46
trial balloon out there to see if it

16:47
sticks right

16:49
it's kind of interesting some of the

16:50
dynamics of this because i always felt

16:52
the financial services industry were

16:55
very powerful lobbyists

16:57
and would protect the roth ira

17:00
but when they coupled it in congress

17:02
with the secure act of secure act 2.0

17:05
uh the financial service companies have

17:08
started to look at these other benefits

17:10
of the law that would channel a lot of

17:12
money into 401ks and some other things

17:16
and they thought well you know we don't

17:18
mind giving up some of these roth

17:20
benefits because we'll get more money

17:23
under management from these other

17:24
benefits

17:26
so that's kind of what's happened is the

17:28
financial services industry which

17:29
defended the roths for a long time

17:32
because it increased their assets under

17:34
management

17:35
are willing to make this trade for

17:37
401ks or defined benefit plans under

17:40
management instead of the

17:42
smaller amount in roth iras

17:45
explain the back door roth because that

17:47
gets thrown around you know that that

17:49
little saying what that is and and the

17:52
future of that if there is a future if

17:54
it's the future if the door is already

17:55
closed

17:58
it's good at least through the end of

17:59
this year it's one of the items on the

18:01
target list

18:03
it's not clear it will be eliminated

18:05
after this year but it's possibly

18:08
going to happen

18:09
uh what it is it's like a two or three

18:12
step

18:13
strategy

18:14
first of all you need to be employed

18:17
have an employer 401k available to you

18:21
and that 401k has to allow

18:24
after-tax contributions in addition to

18:27
the pre-tax most people know about the

18:29
pre-tax 401k contributions which

18:33
uh go up to about nineteen thousand

18:35
dollars a year

18:36
um

18:37
but you're allowed under the tax law to

18:39
make additional contributions in fact

18:42
you can make a total

18:43
of up to about 58 000 dollars in

18:46
contributions but the ones above

18:49
that 19 000 or so level

18:52
will be after tax they'll be included in

18:54
your gross income

18:56
you'll pay income taxes on them but

18:58
they'll be in the 401k

19:00
and then the trick there

19:02
is you can eventually roll them over to

19:04
a roth ira tax-free

19:08
and particularly if your 401k allows

19:11
what they call in-service distributions

19:13
right you can take a distribution or a

19:16
rollover

19:18
anytime after age 59 and a half

19:21
you don't have to be retired or leaving

19:23
the employer for those after-tax

19:25
contributions so you can just take them

19:28
roll them over each year to a roth ira

19:31
and there you have about 38 thousand

19:33
dollars of money in a roth ira

19:36
because you made those after-tax

19:38
contributions to the 401k and then took

19:40
the in-service distribution

19:42
uh so that's what's available it's what

19:44
uh some people have used they they have

19:46
income levels that exceed

19:49
uh the level at which you can make roth

19:51
ira contributions you can't make a

19:53
contribution when your income goes above

19:54
a certain level

19:57
so they have excess income they're not

19:58
allowed to make regular roth ira

20:00
contributions but they can use this

20:02
backdoor strategy

20:04
if they have the 401k plan in place and

20:07
make after-tax contributions to it

20:10
now you've talked about the the like the

20:12
coming tax increases and um

20:14
you're pretty good predictor of what's

20:16
going to happen

20:17
are there some tax strategies that you

20:20
think will survive

20:22
the the the coming tax increases and if

20:25
so what are those

20:26
yeah there are quite a few that have not

20:28
been discussed in congress and that are

20:31
pretty widely used and popular uh you

20:35
know one of them you're familiar with is

20:36
the the q lac and iras where you can

20:39
avoid

20:40
required minimum distributions by uh

20:43
investing part of your ira in a

20:45
qualified longevity annuity contract and

20:47
i think the reason for that bob is the

20:49
irs and the treasury department are the

20:51
ones that built it and designed it and

20:52
introduced it

20:54
so

20:55
so i guess to them it's perfect right

20:57
right and also in fact in secure act 2.0

21:01
there's a proposal to increase the

21:02
amount you can put into the queue lack

21:05
if that is enacted this year as i think

21:08
will happen uh there'll be an additional

21:11
benefit to that so it not only won't be

21:12
eliminated it will be enhanced and by

21:15
the way for people you can go to my site

21:16
at the annuityman.com and run your own q

21:18
lak quotes 24 7 on the best

21:21
uh annuity calculators on the planet so

21:23
just put that in mind if you want to see

21:24
what that that is uh and the rules and

21:26
i've written books on it so you can get

21:28
that as well what are the other things

21:30
bob

21:30
uh another one also for iras it's called

21:33
the qualified charitable distribution

21:35
you know uh required minimum

21:37
distributions are a problem for a lot of

21:39
people uh they don't plan for them they

21:41
get into their mid or late 70s and

21:43
they're fine they have to take more

21:45
money out of this ira than they want to

21:47
they're forced to take it out

21:49
included in their income taxes so it

21:51
increases the taxes on their social

21:53
security and increases their medicare

21:55
premiums so one way you can get around

21:57
that

21:58
is you can have a charitable

21:59
contribution made directly from your

22:01
traditional ira to the charity

22:04
uh it will count towards your required

22:07
the minimum distribution for the year

22:09
but you won't have to include it in

22:11
gross income so

22:13
it's a tax-free way to move money out of

22:15
your traditional ira if you're making

22:17
charitable contributions

22:20
after age 70 and a half

22:22
that's the way to make them you don't

22:24
want to be writing a check to charity

22:25
from income you've already paid taxes on

22:28
you have pre-tax money in the

22:30
traditional ira

22:31
instead just make that money

22:34
be your contribution to the charity you

22:36
just tell

22:37
your ira custodian

22:39
where to direct the money to

22:41
it'll do that online and just send you a

22:44
statement that it's made the

22:46
distribution and so you've you've

22:48
handled your required minimum

22:50
distribution without any income tax

22:52
burden it's called a qualified

22:54
charitable distribution qcd i don't have

22:57
no re i have no

22:58
i'm trying to figure out why this isn't

23:00
more widespread and known

23:03
because you're really the only person

23:05
that i have found that really does a

23:07
good job explaining it

23:09
um but that's that's interesting any

23:12
what else is out there that hasn't been

23:14
that's gone under the the congress

23:16
congressional radar screen

23:19
well health savings accounts which are

23:21
the only triple tax free

23:24
benefit in the tax code great retirement

23:27
savings strategy for those who are

23:28
eligible for them

23:30
no proposals at all to touch those so uh

23:34
you know i can i consider it the

23:35
ultimate retirement savings strategy

23:37
because of the triple tax benefits

23:40
um and no one wants to touch them at all

23:43
so if you will and the spouse can

23:45
inherit those and you know

23:47
um explain how to leave that tax free to

23:50
heirs hsa

23:52
yeah um

23:54
you know you put money in there most

23:55
people they put the money in they take

23:57
it out each year to pay their medical

23:59
expenses but a better strategy is to

24:01
just put in the maximum each year have

24:03
your employer put it in if it's doing

24:05
that and just let that money compound

24:07
until you're retired

24:09
and then if you have excess medical

24:11
expenses in retirement you can spend

24:14
them tax-free or pay for them tax free

24:16
from the hsa

24:18
also any medical expenses you paid out

24:21
of pocket in earlier years

24:23
and did not have reimbursed you can

24:25
reimburse yourself anytime down the road

24:27
from the hsa so if you need cash

24:31
just pull out your receipts from prior

24:33
years

24:34
and take a distribution to reimburse

24:36
yourself for that

24:37
and then

24:38
your spouse can inherit your hsa and

24:40
have the same status you did

24:43
and then if both you and your spouse

24:44
pass away you can leave it to your

24:46
beneficiaries

24:48
and the way the way the rule is is that

24:50
when they inherit it

24:52
they have to include the account balance

24:54
in their gross income

24:56
however they can reduce that

24:59
by any uh unreimbursed medical expenses

25:02
of yours

25:04
they reimburse the estate for them

25:07
so basically say they unhealth inherit a

25:09
hundred thousand dollar hsa

25:12
and you had say 10 or 20 000 of

25:15
outstanding medical bills that not been

25:17
reimbursed

25:19
they can reimburse the estate from that

25:20
and they subtract that amount

25:23
from the amount of the hsa that's

25:24
taxable so

25:26
any unreimbursed expenses you have

25:28
medical expenses you have at the time of

25:30
your death

25:31
they can use that to offset the taxable

25:34
amount of the hsa and increase the

25:35
tax-free amount

25:38
talk about one of the we were talking

25:40
previous and you were going through this

25:42
list one of the things i hung on to was

25:44
what what you'd uh called permanent life

25:46
insurance

25:49
explain that and maybe how it could um

25:52
possibly replace the stretch ira that's

25:54
been taken away

25:56
yeah uh permanent life insurance it's uh

25:59
you know life insurance lobbyists are

26:01
very powerful so yes they are

26:03
the life insurance benefits they're tax

26:05
free to people who receive them also

26:07
with a permanent life insurance policy

26:09
there's a cash value account

26:12
and that earns interest and compounds

26:15
tax deferred or tax-free each year

26:18
so one strategy you can do

26:21
is you have all this money in an ira

26:23
traditional ira

26:25
it's going to be taxable as ordinary

26:27
income if you take it out

26:29
if you leave it in there and your heirs

26:31
inherited

26:32
they're also going to pay taxes on it

26:34
just as you would have and under the

26:36
secure act they have to pay those taxes

26:38
within 10 years

26:40
so for a lot of people also income tax

26:43
rates are likely to go up in the future

26:46
um so you have to also consider you know

26:49
today's tax rate versus a future tax

26:52
rate

26:53
so one strategy you can do

26:55
is take the money out of the ira pay the

26:58
taxes on it use the after tax amount to

27:01
buy a permanent life insurance policy

27:03
so

27:04
you'll be paying the taxes for your

27:06
heirs you know they would have paid them

27:08
anyway if they inherited the ira

27:10
but you're paying them now and that's

27:12
that's a tax-free gift basically it's

27:14
not counted as a gift under the tax code

27:17
because you're paying your taxes even

27:19
though it's really you're paying future

27:21
taxes your heirs would have paid

27:23
right so

27:24
you use that after tax amount to buy

27:27
permanent life insurance

27:29
and then if if you need money in the

27:32
future there's that cash value account

27:34
you can tap tax free through you can bar

27:37
you can borrow that this is where the

27:38
sales pitch gets a little out of whack

27:41
when some people say where are you

27:42
getting tax-free income no you're you're

27:44
you're taking a loan from the policy

27:46
all loans are tax-free because they're

27:48
loans that's not income but you can you

27:51
can take it

27:53
um from there so yeah i think that um

27:56
[Music]

27:58
how does it how does an irrevocable

27:59
trust play into permanent life insurance

28:02
okay and if you put the life insurance

28:04
into an irrevocable trust

28:07
then that life insurance benefit won't

28:09
be included in your taxable estate

28:12
on the other hand

28:13
you won't own it so you also won't have

28:15
the ability to borrow against the cash

28:17
value account got it

28:19
so there's a trade-off there do you want

28:21
it out of your taxable estate or do you

28:23
want to continue to own it and have

28:25
access to that cash value account if you

28:27
need it

28:29
so you know the life insurance benefit

28:31
is eventually inherited by your heirs

28:33
it's tax-free

28:35
also the amount is locked in it's not

28:38
subject to market fluctuations the way a

28:41
roth ira or traditional ira investment

28:43
would be

28:44
and for many people if you're reasonably

28:47
healthy and not too old

28:49
the benefit

28:51
the insurance benefit is going to equal

28:53
or exceed what that pre-tax value of

28:56
your ira watts

28:58
so your heirs are going to inherit the

29:00
same amount of money or more it'll be

29:02
guaranteed and it'll be tax-free

29:05
so that's the trade-off if you want to

29:09
take money out of a traditional ira one

29:11
that you are planning to leave to your

29:13
heirs anyway

29:14
instead of leaving them a tax burden you

29:17
know they're going to pay taxes on a

29:18
traditional ira so they're really only

29:21
inheriting the after tax amount

29:24
and if they take it all out in one year

29:26
they're going to be on top stat top tax

29:28
bracket and pay the maximum taxes on it

29:30
so

29:31
why don't you consider paying the taxes

29:33
now putting it in permanent life

29:35
insurance and letting them enhance the

29:37
tax-free guaranteed amount and if you

29:40
don't want to do it in one lump sum

29:43
what you can do is uh just take

29:45
distributions each year

29:47
and pay annual premiums

29:49
instead of a lump sum premium so you can

29:51
duty it's a very flexible strategy it

29:54
can fit a lot of circumstances

29:56
it's a way to reposition an ira there's

29:59
a lot of people

30:00
who have significant income and assets

30:02
and they don't really need everything in

30:04
their ira to fund their retirement

30:06
planning to leave that to their kids

30:09
and so you should plan and leave it in

30:11
the most tax advantageous way

30:14
and one way to do that is to take it out

30:16
and buy permanent life insurance with it

30:19
um did congress go after stuff like

30:22
family loans i know that um that's

30:25
something i've read you read you uh

30:27
you've you've written about and i've

30:28
read

30:29
the family loan stuff and also maybe you

30:31
can and

30:33
cover the family income

30:35
what we call shifting and splitting can

30:37
you cover those two topics as well have

30:39
they gone after those

30:40
uh so far those are untouched so uh okay

30:44
one one strategy that's really good

30:46
particularly when interest rates are so

30:48
low is parents or grandparents can lend

30:52
money to younger generations at the

30:54
little or no interest

30:57
the younger generation there are options

30:59
they could for example invest it

31:02
keep the returns and return the

31:04
principal to the parents or grandparents

31:07
uh or they could use it to buy a uh you

31:10
know

31:11
make a

31:12
deposit on their first home or pay for

31:15
their kids education something like that

31:18
and uh eventually the parents or

31:20
grandparents they can forgive the loan

31:21
turn it into a gift they can do that

31:23
through their estate if they want and

31:25
their will

31:27
but you know because interest rates are

31:28
so low

31:30
uh sometimes the irs will impute an

31:33
interest rate and say well you actually

31:35
had to charge interest on this so we're

31:37
going to treat it as though the parent

31:38
made a gift of the interest of the child

31:40
child paid it back as interest and when

31:43
interest rates were higher that could be

31:44
a bit of an inconvenience sure but with

31:47
the rates so low

31:49
it's really not much money at all you're

31:51
basically lending money at treasury

31:53
rates to your children

31:55
and so it can be a really good deal when

31:58
your children or grandchildren need

32:00
money or they have a good investment

32:01
opportunity

32:04
which kind of leads us to the

32:06
what you have written about the family

32:07
income shifting and splitting those type

32:09
of strategies i know that it can get

32:11
somewhat

32:12
sophisticated but if you can give a

32:15
kind of a broad overview that's the

32:16
reason people need to go to your site at

32:18
retirementwatch.com all one word

32:20
retirementwatch.com

32:22
because i know

32:23
bob has given you a fire hose of

32:25
information

32:27
to say the least understatement

32:29
but this is the type of information that

32:32
you need as a retiree or someone going

32:35
into

32:36
retirement

32:37
um chapter two managing your money and

32:39
managing your assets

32:41
you need to know these things you need

32:42
to know these things for someone who

32:44
knows what they are talking about that

32:46
would be bob carlson bob talk about

32:48
family income shifting

32:50
splitting and what you have referred to

32:51
in some of your writings

32:53
yeah it's good to look at not only your

32:56
your income taxes but your family's

32:58
income taxes whether you have children

33:00
or grandchildren

33:02
they're likely to be a lower tax rate

33:05
than you are

33:06
and uh

33:07
and if you want to help them anyway it's

33:09
best to help them in a way that

33:11
minimizes the family's income taxes so

33:13
as a group you have higher after tax

33:16
income and wealth

33:18
a lot of ways to do that for example

33:20
let's say

33:22
you want to give some money to your

33:24
children

33:25
and you're thinking the way you're going

33:27
to fund that is to sell some stock or

33:29
mutual funds and give them the money

33:31
well it's

33:32
these likely have appreciated a lot so

33:35
if you sell them you're going to have to

33:36
pay capital gains taxes

33:38
and then give the after tax amount what

33:41
you can do instead is make a gift of the

33:43
shares themselves

33:46
let your children or grandchildren sell

33:48
it they're probably in the zero percent

33:50
or ten percent capital gains tax rate

33:54
uh versus perhaps you're in fifteen or

33:57
twenty percent

33:58
so let them sell it pay less taxes on it

34:01
and have more after tax money to spend

34:04
uh than if you had sold it and give them

34:06
the after-tax amount

34:08
and you know there's a lot of things you

34:10
can do with that say you have income

34:12
producing assets the income exceeds what

34:15
you need to live on but you're included

34:17
in your gross income and paying taxes on

34:20
it

34:21
if you're giving money to your children

34:22
or grandchildren anyway why not give

34:24
them those assets and let them

34:26
have the income each year pay the taxes

34:29
on it at their rate

34:31
and so again there's more after-tax

34:34
wealth in the family

34:36
if you learn what your children's and

34:38
grandchildren's tax rates are

34:40
and give them with that in mind rather

34:43
than paying them from your after-tax

34:46
leftovers um

34:48
[Music]

34:49
are our friends in dc are they going

34:52
after the step up and basis on

34:54
inheritances what's what's happening

34:56
with that because i would think that

34:57
would be a target what are you hearing

35:00
that was initially a target um

35:02
apparently enough people have opposed it

35:05
for now that it's off the table and

35:07
that's why they've come up with some of

35:08
these other

35:10
plans to pay for their spending but for

35:13
now the after tax step or the step up in

35:16
basis after death

35:18
is still

35:19
viable it's still available to everyone

35:21
and

35:23
it looks like it's not going to be

35:24
changed anytime soon

35:27
how about the old

35:28
standby 529 plans for education savings

35:32
and things like that that's been around

35:33
for a long long time i don't think it's

35:34
ever caught on fire like they thought it

35:37
would

35:38
are they leaving that alone because of

35:40
that or are they they're pointing a gun

35:42
at that one no they're leaving that

35:44
alone in fact over the last few years

35:46
they've enhanced some of the benefits in

35:48
the 529 plan

35:50
5. excuse me

36:00
excuse me well that's fine yeah you can

36:02
go ahead and get what bob was talking

36:04
about the 529 plan which if you're not

36:06
familiar with it it um

36:08
you know it's it's a way to fund

36:12
education

36:14
costs for kids and grandkids et cetera

36:16
and it's it's flexible

36:19
and i like the fact that bob looks at it

36:22
in a different way

36:23
from

36:24
an estate planning vehicle so maybe he

36:27
can go over what a 529 needs from it

36:29
means from a state planning standpoint

36:32
yeah in fact the 529

36:36
it's really a great distinct planning

36:38
tool

36:39
you can make five years worth

36:42
of tax-free gifts

36:43
in one year

36:45
so you can shift fifteen thousand

36:47
dollars times five

36:50
out of your estate

36:51
put in an account for one child or

36:54
grandchild

36:56
it's in there it earns tax-free income

37:00
if they take it out to pay education

37:01
expenses

37:03
it's tax-free again

37:05
if you change your mind you can get that

37:07
money back

37:09
uh you can change the beneficiary

37:12
uh you can change choose how it's

37:14
invested within certain options provided

37:18
by the 429 plan sponsor

37:21
so it's it's really flexible it gets

37:23
money out of your estate tax-free

37:26
benefits your children are grandchildren

37:28
tax-free

37:30
and

37:31
unlike a lot of strategies you can

37:32
change your mind

37:34
so it's uh again as you said this is a

37:38
very flexible strategy that has not been

37:41
used as much as the financial service

37:43
industry thought it would be

37:46
uh not clear why because that's because

37:48
advisors can't explain it like you do

37:50
bob if everybody could explain it like

37:53
you

37:53
it would be one of the most popular

37:55
things on the planet uh but yeah i agree

37:57
i think that people probably need to

37:59
revisit it especially people in chapter

38:02
two of their lives where they're looking

38:04
to

38:05
move assets around take care of family

38:07
etc

38:08
it's not just for education anymore as

38:10
they say there's other things that 529s

38:14
can do um yeah they've expanded in

38:17
recent years so you can use it to pay

38:19
for pre-college expenses you can use it

38:21
to pay for private schools

38:23
uh

38:24
really they've continued to add to the

38:26
list of the tax-free expenses that can

38:29
be paid

38:30
with the distributions

38:32
um as you were as you were talking about

38:34
the 529s i'm pretty familiar with it

38:36
because i've seen them forever

38:38
um something hit me about um

38:41
have they have they targeted donor

38:42
advised funds or or

38:44
when you start bunching up deductions

38:46
and things like that

38:49
and if not why haven't they because i

38:51
think that would be a common sense you

38:53
know target or

38:56
you know before you answer that

38:58
how in your opinion how does congress go

39:00
about the targeting i know it's a

39:02
lobbying group and all that stuff and

39:04
there's a lot of um

39:06
um how the soup is made is pretty and

39:08
how the sausage is made pretty ugly but

39:10
some of these things i would think would

39:12
be easy targets and easy sells from the

39:14
standpoint of the media pushing it etc

39:17
and of course they're horrible

39:18
messengers on all this

39:20
why do you think some things make it uh

39:22
through untouched and some don't what's

39:24
your opinion on that

39:26
yeah well in particular for the donor

39:28
advised funds uh

39:30
the charitable lobbying groups are quite

39:33
good

39:34
uh in fact they've they've been able to

39:36
expand

39:38
the tax benefits of giving

39:40
uh while a lot of these other benefits

39:42
are being cut back so the

39:44
a part of it is is very powerful

39:47
interest in charitable giving of course

39:49
a lot of the a lot of the rich people

39:51
also favor a lot of the charitable

39:52
giving tax breaks because it helps them

39:55
but that seems to be the main thing also

39:57
the uh

39:59
the charitable groups argue that

40:01
they're really

40:03
doing some of the functions of

40:04
government through their charitable

40:06
activities so if

40:07
if you cut back the giving to the

40:09
charities then someone's got to step up

40:12
and replace what they're doing

40:14
and so that's true you can either give

40:17
away the tax breaks or you can do direct

40:19
spending but someone's got to do it

40:22
uh so that's really um a lot of what uh

40:25
what keeps these charitable tax breaks

40:27
going

40:28
um and the donor advised funds um

40:32
there are some

40:34
uh people in the uh the charitable

40:36
industry who actually want to cut them

40:39
back their argument is that people put

40:42
this money into the donor advised funds

40:45
they get the upfront tax breaks

40:47
and then the money sits in the account

40:50
for years or decades they've have some

40:53
data about what a low percentage of

40:55
these

40:56
funds actually get paid out each year so

40:59
there is this small and perhaps growing

41:01
group that's making an argument against

41:03
the daf

41:05
but for now they've not been successful

41:07
the dafs are in place

41:10
uh there's no strong movement in

41:12
congress to restrict their benefits

41:16
the only thing that

41:18
arguably restricted their benefits has

41:19
there been a a couple tax breaks in

41:22
recent years such as the qualified

41:24
charitable distribution

41:25
and the increased charitable

41:28
deductions that were allowed during

41:30
kovid

41:32
those breaks were not allowed for

41:34
contributions to dafs only to public

41:37
charities

41:38
but other than that

41:40
the donor advised funds are in place you

41:43
can put the money in there

41:45
get to current

41:47
charitable deduction for the full amount

41:48
you put in

41:50
and then you condole that money out over

41:52
the years and in the meantime invest it

41:54
so it grows in value and so your

41:56
ultimate gift to charity

41:58
exceeds what you put in and what you got

42:00
a tax deduction for so

42:02
uh so far it's got enough people backing

42:04
it that it's in place and there there

42:06
are no plans to restrict it

42:08
how about bunching deductions i mean

42:10
we've talked about that in the past on

42:12
you know when we were speaking at all

42:13
these other events and we've discussed

42:15
that

42:16
did that make it through did does it

42:18
look like that's going to get through

42:20
untouched unscathed and bunch and maybe

42:22
you can explain

42:23
you know how you can take a standard

42:25
deduction and and increase that etc

42:27
which we call bunching the deduction

42:30
bunching up the deductions

42:32
yeah the the bunching has become more

42:34
popular after the 2017 tax law because

42:37
the standard deduction was doubled

42:40
and you can only take itemized

42:41
deductions if your total exceeds the

42:44
standard deduction

42:45
so fewer people could take itemized

42:48
deductions after 2017 because of the

42:50
doubling of the standard deduction

42:53
so one way to increase your itemized

42:55
expenses

42:56
is to bunch them all in one year

42:59
take two or three work years worth of

43:01
expenses and put them into one year so

43:04
you exceed the standard deduction for

43:06
that year

43:07
and you get the tax benefit

43:09
and the charitable deduction is the main

43:12
one to do that because you could use the

43:14
daf

43:16
if you have the cash

43:18
you can put several years worth of your

43:20
expected charitable deductions into the

43:22
daf deduct it this year and then dole it

43:25
out gradually over the next two or three

43:27
years

43:29
you can do that to some extent with

43:30
other expenses

43:32
for example with property taxes you can

43:36
pay them

43:37
in december pay like january's expenses

43:39
in december and get an extra month in

43:41
although those are not currently

43:43
deductible they won't be deductible well

43:45
they're not deductible above ten

43:47
thousand dollars

43:49
um so there's that limit there so the

43:51
main one for bunching is charitable you

43:54
might also bunch medical expenses but

43:57
you know if you're near the standard

43:58
deduction amount but not over it

44:01
you might want to consider bunching some

44:03
of next year's deductible expenses into

44:06
this year so that you cannot get over

44:09
that standard deduction amount and take

44:11
that extra tax break

44:14
one of the things i like about your site

44:15
once again for everybody and the reason

44:17
i keep

44:18
saying the site is there's no way you're

44:20
retaining all this so it's good that all

44:22
of this is

44:23
is recorded for my listeners clients

44:25
viewers etc because you're gonna have to

44:27
listen to it

44:28
and go to retirementwatch.com one of the

44:30
things i like that bob does obviously he

44:32
knows his stuff backwards and forwards

44:34
as you know everyone nod their head to

44:36
that because that is true

44:38
but one of the things i like about your

44:40
site and actually when i hear you speak

44:43
um you talk about tax-wise investing and

44:47
i think if there was ever a time to

44:50
probably take your advice and maybe you

44:52
go through some points of what that

44:53
means to you and what that should mean

44:55
to the listener

44:58
tax wise invest and tax wise investing

45:01
is going to be a sport

45:03
upcoming believe me because they're

45:05
gonna have to raise taxes to pay for all

45:06
this money they're printing so bob do

45:09
the do the listener and view our favor

45:11
and kind of go through some bullet

45:12
points on

45:13
what tax wise investing means

45:17
yeah a lot of people don't consider the

45:19
taxes on their investments until near

45:22
the end of the year after the close of

45:24
the year

45:25
but there are things you can consider

45:27
during the year in addition to what's

45:29
going on in the markets that would

45:31
increase your after tax returns

45:33
uh

45:34
loss harvesting is a good one

45:37
you know many people just

45:38
psychologically they're hesitant

45:40
to sell a losing investment

45:43
various psychological reasons are given

45:46
for that but

45:47
you know the point is people don't like

45:49
to sell their losers they they say well

45:51
i'm gonna wait to get to get back to

45:53
what i paid for it right break even uh

45:56
but a better strategy

45:58
from your if you want to look at your

46:00
after tax returns

46:02
is uh once an investment's gone down it

46:04
looks like it's not going to turn around

46:06
anytime soon

46:08
sell it

46:09
take the loss you can deduct the loss on

46:11
your tax return it can offset whatever

46:14
capital gains you have for the year

46:17
any excess loss up to three thousand

46:20
dollars can be deducted against your

46:22
other income

46:24
and then if you still have an excess

46:25
loss it can be carried forward to next

46:27
year and used the same way

46:30
so instead of leaving that money in its

46:32
investment it's not going anywhere

46:35
sell it get these tax benefits

46:38
and then you have the sale proceeds you

46:40
can invest in something else that

46:42
hopefully will

46:43
at least go up a little bit instead of

46:45
languishing there

46:47
so you know tax loss harvesting

46:49
throughout the year some people wait

46:51
till near the end of the year to do it

46:53
uh but you know better approaches you

46:55
know monitor your investments all year

46:58
if something goes down

47:01
uh significantly even if you think it's

47:03
temporary

47:04
you can sell it book that loss wait more

47:06
than 30 days

47:08
and buy it back or you can immediately

47:11
buy something that's not substantially

47:13
identical you can sell one index fund

47:15
and buy another index fund or or sell

47:18
one energy stock buy another energy

47:20
stock something of that nature

47:22
so if you're thinking about the tax

47:24
effects all year long

47:27
and watching the market when the market

47:28
goes down instead of fretting about it

47:30
think you know what opportunity do i

47:32
have here

47:34
where i can book some of these losses

47:36
offset some of my good investments and

47:38
then reinvest this money in something

47:40
else

47:41
so that's a good strategy uh another

47:43
strategy

47:44
you know don't sell an investment just

47:46
because it's gone up

47:48
uh try to wait until you've held it for

47:50
more than a year so it's a long-term

47:52
capital gain instead of a short-term

47:54
capital gain as well that's a that's a

47:55
basic one that people need to really

47:57
remember

47:58
right most people they want to take

48:00
their gains hoping they don't go away

48:03
so instead they're paying ordinary

48:05
income tax rates on a gain when if

48:07
they'd waited a little bit longer they'd

48:09
be paying long-term capital gains rate

48:11
you know even if the investment goes

48:13
down a bit

48:14
uh the difference between the tax rates

48:16
often is so significant that it has to

48:19
go down 10 or 15 percent

48:21
uh before you'd lose by letting it

48:23
convert to a long-term capital gain

48:26
so you know that that's a pretty basic

48:28
thing that most people don't consider uh

48:31
is just waiting to let that mature into

48:33
a long-term capital gain instead of a

48:35
short-term gain

48:37
is there anything that

48:38
you're talking about tax-wise investing

48:40
anything to be aware of any any gotchas

48:43
on the horizon there

48:45
um there's not a lot

48:47
going on

48:48
with the the investment rules right now

48:51
you know there were talk of uh

48:53
increasing the capital gains rates that

48:56
as far as i can tell seems to be off the

48:58
table

48:59
[Music]

49:01
it might come back but for right now

49:04
um these basic investment rules that

49:07
increase your after tax returns they

49:09
appear to be safe

49:12
that's good

49:13
i mean that's good so overall are you um

49:16
i mean to me you're just even keeled

49:18
real you're a realist

49:20
i mean you're you're i guess you're a

49:22
you're a i'm a pessimistic realist i

49:24
think you're an optimistic realist

49:26
both of us being realists

49:28
um

49:30
what's your crystal ball say

49:32
what is it going to get is it going to

49:34
get ugly from the standpoint of taxation

49:37
are they going to mess with ross i mean

49:38
if you were going to kind of close it up

49:40
and put a bow on it

49:41
not holding you to it but i just

49:43
fascinated with your brain and where all

49:46
this is going what do you think's gonna

49:47
happen are you just gonna wait for the

49:48
dust to settle

49:50
uh well you know when they made these

49:53
big proposals earlier in the year i

49:55
thought it was a bit of an overreach and

49:59
most of them wouldn't pass

50:01
the real question to me is

50:04
did they overreach so much that they

50:06
can't come to agreement on anything

50:10
or are they going to be able to kind of

50:12
realize

50:14
what the reality is

50:16
and that

50:18
you know they can get some of it but

50:20
certainly not all of it

50:22
um today i'd have to say it looks like

50:25
it's 50 50 whether they get nothing

50:28
or they get some of these

50:30
tax increases that they want

50:33
and

50:34
you know when they first proposed these

50:36
things they said what we've learned from

50:38
the past is we have to act quickly

50:41
we have to get what we want as soon as

50:43
we can

50:45
um

50:47
you know that hasn't worked the process

50:49
slowed down people started revealing

50:51
what's in these laws and you know people

50:54
started objecting to them

50:56
uh also you know if they don't pass

50:58
anything this year next year a lot of

51:00
people in congress in the senate are up

51:02
for reelection there's a lot of people

51:04
who

51:04
barely won their seats last time they're

51:07
kind of marginal and so they don't want

51:08
to go

51:09
with any of these extreme proposals

51:13
so you know that

51:14
that argument makes me a bit optimistic

51:17
i still suspect they're going to come

51:18
together and get some kind of tax

51:20
increases in it sure uh it's just not

51:23
clear at all which ones

51:26
um because it changes from day to day

51:28
which ones the media says look likely to

51:31
to get agreed to

51:33
um but you know the good news is those

51:35
big proposals that were on the table in

51:37
the spring

51:39
most of them are off the table

51:41
and

51:42
the question now is which of the lesser

51:45
proposals are going to get through

51:47
and is it going to be restricted to just

51:50
the very wealthy

51:51
or something going to trickle down soon

51:54
to uh you know regular people and middle

51:56
class upper middle class people

51:58
well

51:59
certainly i wanted you on uh today just

52:02
because i wanted to get people prepared

52:04
kind of let them know your insight of

52:06
what what you think is going to happen

52:07
what's going to be taxed what they're

52:09
looking at what's probably not going to

52:11
be touched and it's going to go through

52:12
and i think we've covered that

52:14
but as people have been listening what i

52:17
would encourage them to do is don't

52:19
listen to the media because most those

52:21
people don't can't spell the word tax

52:23
they don't know what they're talking

52:24
about they're trying to get clicks and

52:26
viewers go to bobsite

52:28
retirementwatch.com

52:29
and and he's going to give you the facts

52:31
of what's going to happen what you

52:33
should be aware of how to address it

52:36
um and how to make an informed decision

52:38
based on your specific situation with

52:40
him providing the facts

52:42
which is the reason bob carlson is who

52:44
he is

52:45
which is america's number one retirement

52:48
expert that i mean i'm not the only one

52:49
that that said that many people have

52:51
called him that for the reason that

52:53
you've heard he is a

52:55
veritable plethora of information and a

52:58
fire hose of facts

53:00
um so bob i really appreciate you being

53:03
on every time you're on my

53:05
my uh emails light up and and everyone's

53:08
just like oh that was so great please

53:10
have them on again bob we need you on

53:12
again once all these laws are passed and

53:14
then we'll sift through the bodies as

53:16
they say and you can tell people what

53:19
really happened okay well i'd be glad to

53:21
you're doing great work for people there

53:23
and i'm happy to participate

53:26
that's bob carlson of

53:27
retirementwatch.com

53:29
um i encourage you to go there and i

53:31
appreciate everybody joining me

53:34
on fun with annuities and i will see you

53:37
next week

53:42
thanks for listening to fun with

53:44
annuities please hit the subscribe

53:46
button and make sure to go to my site at

53:48
the annuityman.com where you can run

53:51
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53:54
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54:01
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54:04
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54:06
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54:09
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54:11
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54:14
can have a full discussion of your

54:16
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54:19
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54:22
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54:24
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54:26
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54:28
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54:31
fun

54:32
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54:36
[Music]

54:47
you