080 Jamie Hopkins: Retirement Planning And The Why That Makes You Cry

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welcome to fun with annuities with your

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host me stan the annuity man america's

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annuity agent can annuities be fun can

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contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can find out the brutal

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facts about annuities with no sales

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pitches or high pressure nonsense just

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the brutal and factual annuity truth

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which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

0:41
host stan the annuity man america's

0:43
annuity agent

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and i'm so happy that you joined us

0:47
today welcome to everyone on all the

0:48
major podcast platforms and also on the

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fun with annuities youtube channel

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as everyone probably already knows i

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have one of the biggest annuity channels

0:56
called on youtube called stand the

0:58
annuity man but the fun with annuities

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youtube channels is fun as well because

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you get to see

1:03
me and the guests interacting

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um but welcome let me introduce our

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guest so we can get right to it because

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i want to pick his brain clean before he

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gets off of this podcast his name is

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jamie hopkins we're going to have his um

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his website and how to get in touch with

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him how to buy his books and all that

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stuff on my site he'll have a permanent

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page on my site

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just like all of our celebrity guests

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he's the managing partner of wealth

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solutions he's a

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finance professor of practice at

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creighton university's hydro college of

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business

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he's also a nationally recognized writer

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and researcher you might have read his

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stuff in forbes investment news and

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marketwatch just to name a few he's

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co-authored three textbooks

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and has two e-books on retirement

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planning he's also the author of a book

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he wrote in 2018 which i love the title

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rewirement not retirement but rewirement

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the rewiring rewiring the way you think

1:56
about retirement it's a fantastic book

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once again we'll have that on our site

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you can link and buy that as well he

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received his bachelor of arts degree in

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political science at davidson college

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in north carolina where he was captain

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of the division one

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varsity men's swim team which tells if

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you if you know anything about that

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discipline that kind of tells you who he

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is

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he attended the villanova school of law

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where he earned his jd in grad and

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graduated there with honors he also went

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to temple university there in

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philadelphia as well for his llm and for

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financial planning designations

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my new nickname for jamie is the future

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i'm going to call him jamie the future

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hopkins because he is the new face and

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voice of retirement and complaining in

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my opinion

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and the reason i can do that if they can

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call lebron james the king

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then jamie hopkins can no doubt be

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called the future welcome to fun with

2:51
annuities

2:53
jamie hopkins

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i love that man that the future i like

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it that's uh i don't know if i feel that

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way personally but it's a that is a

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strong introduction

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let me just tell all of the people that

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are listening out there and the ones

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that are viewing viewing this you just

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probably fainted because jamie's young

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that's the reason i call him the future

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he's been voted you know

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top dude under 40 top dude under 30 you

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know every time he'll be top dude under

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50.

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he's that guy but let's talk a little

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bit about basketball first jamie because

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if you don't know this i put myself

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through college playing basketball

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played at the university of central

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florida but uh davidson college i grew

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up in the charlotte area my parents

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actually lived in the davidson area and

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for anyone that cares about basketball

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that's where steph curry played

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um so you know we got some davidson

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stuff there and i was looking through

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your podcast where you actually

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interviewed bob mckellip which i thought

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was cool who was actually a thought

3:52
leader and could if he ran a business

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it'd be a good one

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um but also

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food for thought my dad used to coach at

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appalachian state a long time ago ah

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yeah so

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i don't i don't know if they're in all

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the same leagues anymore um i think they

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that they were they when i was at school

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there we played them in almost

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everything

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and uh you know i think davidson has

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since switched leagues for some things

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not everything but some things they've

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moved out basketball right they shifted

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leagues but bob mckilts i mean he's like

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he was there when i was there he's been

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there a long time at davidson his his

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kids have gone through the program they

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were there when i was there and yeah we

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i had the pleasure of having him on uh

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our show framework and uh you know it's

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he's just as you said if he was a

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business owner he would run a very good

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business he's a he's a great leader of

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people and that's one of the things i

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remember from being there and just being

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around him

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and it's a tiny school right if you're

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from the charlotte area or even know

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anything about it when i was there was

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only like 1450 uh

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you know college students i think it's

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up to 1800 to 2000 now so it's grown a

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lot and it's still a tiny school but

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curry was a freshman when i was a senior

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i did get to meet him i played some

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pickups games with him i mean reality is

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i was in the the training room injured a

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lot uh you know when they're all getting

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taped up but it was funny like we didn't

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know him as steph curry then you knew

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him as dale curry's kid and that's a

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really funny thing to look back upon now

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that del curry was a great player so we

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didn't know who he was but not because

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he was supposed to be famous because his

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dad was

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but i know the story changed after that

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well let's segue from that into finances

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i know that's going to be interesting

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but watch this pivot

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how did your your sports background your

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discipline as a swimmer play into the

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success of you

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achieving what you have so far in the

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world of finance and retirement income

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planning

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is there a correlation there

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there is and i i you don't know it when

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you're going through sports exactly that

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the lessons you're learning are going to

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play dividends later on in life we

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already talked about one great coach now

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obviously i didn't play for coach

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mckillop but i i did get to spend time

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with them i also swam you brought up in

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baltimore growing up and i swam on a

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team north baltimore aquatic club nbac

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talking about another great athlete uh

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michael phelps and i grew up together

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were a month apart in age

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we were on the same team and same

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practices same lane for almost 15 years

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uh so uh coach bob bowman who's been i

6:23
think four or five-time olympic head

6:24
coach was my coach growing up and i

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still talked to him uh you know i text

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with him fairly frequently and uh you

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know he taught me a lot just about being

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a better person and being disciplined

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and being willing to put in the work

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when it's not fun doing the extra things

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going from good to great

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you know working on sundays when your

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competitors are sitting at home right

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training differently than other people

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are training so you know we moved away

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from a lot of static stretching back in

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the day before that was popular and i

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always tell people the story like think

6:57
back about the nfl in the 90s and they

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had those big circles that had all been

7:01
pulling on their legs

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and what we found out is that type of

7:03
stretching increased injury we moved

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away from that back in the 90s so if

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people can visually remember michael

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stretching completely different right

7:11
flapping his arms swinging them around

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and that all came from that and michael

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never really got kind of seriously

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injured throughout his entire career and

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that helped him achieve a level of

7:22
greatness that others weren't able to

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achieve

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and a lot of those things came into me

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during my life that looking at the

7:28
little things putting in that extra bit

7:30
of work because a lot of people are

7:32
pretty good at stuff not a lot of people

7:34
are great at things and that's where

7:36
that difference is right you can be

7:37
pretty good and i often ask people in a

7:39
room right oh you

7:41
how do you feel about this are you

7:42
pretty good yeah people kind of nod are

7:44
you great at it a lot of people stop

7:46
short of that right um that greatness is

7:49
a different level of commitment and a

7:51
lot of it's

7:52
mental right it's not just physical i've

7:54
talked about this many times before i

7:56
don't know if everyone agrees with me

7:57
anymore but you know physically i used

7:59
to tell people michael wasn't the most

8:01
talented swimmer i ever swam with he's

8:03
clearly the greatest and it's not even

8:05
close sure but he wasn't the physically

8:08
most talented that i personally believe

8:10
i ever swam with i could be wrong about

8:12
that but uh you know he did all those

8:14
extra little things that other people

8:15
weren't doing so it was a mix of talent

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and having the right coach the right

8:20
opportunity and the drive and being

8:22
willing to do it when other people

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weren't and swimming's a tough sport

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mentally it's not easy because you're

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alone you're looking at a black line and

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going back and forth

8:32
well those those extra little things you

8:34
know stretching differently and those

8:35
type of things

8:37
what are some examples that when you

8:38
look at retirement income and you

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started getting into this and and

8:41
digging in and writing the books and and

8:44
doing what you do

8:45
what were the things that you started

8:48
to see that were missing that you needed

8:50
to adopt and you were going to tell

8:52
people from a client standpoint that

8:55
they needed to adopt

8:57
yeah and we could start with some little

8:58
things and move up from there

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there's amazingly small things that have

9:03
a big impact which is just you know did

9:05
you think about you know your medicare

9:07
and i'm going through that with somebody

9:09
right now uh and just you know making a

9:12
better decision around medicare not just

9:14
enrolling and trying to avoid premiums

9:17
but actually sitting down and running it

9:19
and looking at what prescription drugs

9:20
you have and are those covered and those

9:23
are small things but they can add up a

9:24
lot and in every area of retirement that

9:28
exists too right are you living in the

9:29
right house or are you just living there

9:31
because you've always lived there and

9:32
it's way too big it's got six bedrooms

9:34
and it's tough to keep up and you're not

9:35
even really happy there anymore so

9:37
thinking about your home equity and and

9:39
what are ways to leverage that or even

9:42
spend it down at some point in your life

9:45
or is that your legacy asset and those

9:47
are you know you would think that those

9:49
are pretty basic conversations you

9:51
should have people weren't having them

9:53
the other one long-term care this is a

9:55
really basic one a lot of people are

9:56
like oh my family will help or my kids

9:58
will be my executor and i'm always like

10:00
have you even asked them

10:02
like did you take the time to just ask

10:04
your kids do they want to be their your

10:05
executor do they want to help with your

10:08
care and the answer is probably yes

10:10
you're probably right if you're writing

10:12
it down to assume it but you have you

10:13
asked the question and put them on

10:15
notice and have that conversation and

10:17
those are little things and all those

10:18
things add up and then what you see is

10:20
you know if people aren't living the

10:22
retirement and not having the confidence

10:24
that they otherwise would want and end

10:26
of day you know i've shifted my mental

10:28
thinking about retirement a lot on this

10:30
i used to be more of a you know think

10:32
about things in the x's and o's and the

10:34
numbers

10:35
and you know is it optimal and you'll

10:37
hear that on the you know on the

10:39
researcher side and i've been in uh been

10:42
a professor now for 15 years and a lot

10:44
of my fellow researchers talked about

10:46
optimal retirement spend down strategies

10:48
and what i learned is most people don't

10:49
care about optimal and you know if you

10:51
had a less optimal retirement but they

10:53
were happier did you do your job and i

10:55
think the answer is probably yes like if

10:57
you told me i'd have no more money but

10:58
i'd be the happiest person alive for the

11:00
rest of my life i would make that trade

11:02
any second of the day right i mean it's

11:04
an easy one so i think a lot of it gets

11:06
back to how do we increase people's

11:08
satisfaction the return on sleep ros

11:10
which i i like that terminology return

11:13
on sleep yeah forget roi it's ros

11:17
interesting

11:19
yeah i agree with that yeah well as i

11:22
said if you you ask somebody right would

11:23
you give up all the money and all the

11:24
stuff you have if you were happy for the

11:26
rest of your life and i think everyone

11:28
most people's answer is yes right so

11:29
that's really what we're aiming for

11:31
right

11:31
dollars aren't really all that important

11:33
in of themselves is what do they allow

11:35
us to accomplish and do right they're a

11:37
means to an end i mean that's why you

11:39
know dollars and monetary things were

11:41
created not in and of themselves but to

11:43
accomplish other goals

11:46
the that answer is an easy answer for

11:49
people yes i'd love to be happy but it's

11:50
also a scary answer

11:52
it's also falling off a cliff a little

11:54
bit for people because it takes them out

11:55
of their comfort zone

11:57
how do you transition or help people

11:58
transition

12:00
from

12:01
them nodding their head when you say

12:03
would you give it all up to live a

12:04
better life to finding that happy medium

12:06
where they can meet you in the middle

12:08
and go live that life

12:10
this is a challenge for people heading

12:12
into retirement i'm

12:14
very simple about this and it's because

12:15
of how we're you know conditioned it's

12:17
how we're trained it's how we're

12:19
educated so i i talk about this which in

12:23
in the book but i i actually kind of

12:25
learned some of this after i wrote the

12:26
first edition of the book which was just

12:28
think about what we do during our

12:30
working years and you just have to stop

12:32
sometime and put it down and all we're

12:34
taught is safe we're taught to put money

12:37
aside

12:38
we're taught the budget which is really

12:40
uh usually a form of making sure that

12:42
we're saving enough right that we're not

12:44
over spending we're not taught to spend

12:47
down assets until we get to retirement

12:49
and then i'd argue right we're not

12:51
really taught it we're not even

12:52
conditioned we're just told hey now's

12:53
the time to spend down so we spent our

12:55
entire lives working 30 years really

12:57
just hoping the account goes up right we

13:00
log into our bank to make sure it went

13:02
up

13:02
and that's really all we care about

13:04
right there's been some studies from

13:05
places internally i think wells fargo

13:07
said like 80 or 80 some percent of

13:09
people only log in to their account to

13:12
make sure the money is there it's the

13:13
only reason they log in so you look at

13:15
something like that like that's what

13:16
we're doing we just want to see it go up

13:18
you know even return on investment i

13:20
know people might care at the end of the

13:21
year but throughout the year we just

13:22
want to make sure the money's not gone

13:25
and so we're taught our whole lives to

13:26
look at this thing going up and to save

13:28
and put money aside and then one day we

13:30
retire very few people phase into

13:32
retirement and now somehow we're just

13:34
supposed to magically do something

13:36
completely different than i did for the

13:37
last 30 years

13:39
honestly it doesn't make any sense to

13:40
believe that people are going to be good

13:42
at that right if i tell you to do

13:43
something for 30 years you do it for 30

13:45
years then the next day i say well now

13:46
you need to do the opposite of that

13:49
you just told me to only learn one thing

13:51
for 30 years yeah we teach accumulation

13:54
but at the end of the day it's a

13:55
decumulation do you think we need a new

13:57
word for that i mean the the the

13:59
industry sometimes the retirement

14:01
industry annuity industry

14:03
they start speaking in their own

14:04
language not in the consumer's language

14:06
which i i try to speak in english out

14:09
here with people decumulation means

14:12
nothing to people

14:13
in fact it sounds bad yeah most of the

14:16
thing right actually even spend down the

14:19
accumulation they're all they all have

14:21
negative connotations and i'm actually

14:23
terrible at that as i said i'm an

14:24
academic at heart and i fall into using

14:27
an attorney right so like we're the

14:28
worst offenders of using our own lingo

14:31
that means nothing to anyone else to

14:33
make ourselves sound smarter uh yeah i

14:35
don't even know if the term retirement

14:37
is a great term either if you look at

14:40
that from an accounting definition right

14:42
it means essentially that the useful

14:43
life of the you know object has passed

14:47
so

14:48
you know when you send something into

14:49
retirement it means there's no value

14:51
anymore and so i don't even know if

14:52
that's a great term but that's just so

14:54
you know the people who try to change

14:56
that term in the sense of get rid of it

14:58
i think it's tough because it's it's

14:59
very ingrained not just in the united

15:01
states but the equivalent of that word

15:03
is used throughout the world so it's

15:05
very hard to change that overnight now

15:07
the income planning versus the

15:08
accumulation spend down that's a little

15:11
bit newer so i i do think that we could

15:14
end up with a a word that's you know or

15:17
a phrase that is better in that space i

15:20
haven't tried to define that one i mean

15:22
i did change mine right rewirement which

15:25
i own the trademark for too good it was

15:28
yeah because i was getting ready to call

15:29
my lawyer and say hey let's get that

15:32
it's a good one right yeah

15:35
and the whole point of that was that you

15:37
know we do need to change the way we

15:38
think about from accumulation to

15:40
decumulation or however you want to you

15:42
know think about it from right saving to

15:45
spending is really what i think about

15:46
right how do we go from a saving mindset

15:48
to a spending mindset because that's

15:50
really what it's about right we're

15:52
saving to achieve some goal that we're

15:54
spending to achieve some goal

15:56
and you know we're not all going to

15:58
spend the same we don't all have the

15:59
same goals but i'm very much a

16:01
goal-based oriented

16:04
planner if you might use that term i

16:06
like to set goals and aim towards them

16:08
and there's a lot of behavioral research

16:10
that supports the notion of goal setting

16:12
and working towards something in sight

16:15
actually working back from it is usually

16:17
better so you know

16:18
but it's not easy and

16:20
that change is fundamentally right

16:23
opposed to how people are wired for

16:26
their entire working career i think that

16:29
as a industry as a profession as a

16:31
society we need to get a lot better at a

16:33
couple things one of them is a really

16:35
short simple one which we're getting

16:37
close to which is just showing people

16:38
how much income they'll have in

16:39
retirement while they're saving

16:41
that you know that's been discussed

16:42
forever and it just seems like such a

16:44
beneficial thing that we've dragged our

16:46
feet on for decades now as a as a

16:49
country now it's coming right where

16:51
we're going to see that statement inside

16:52
the 401k or otherwise but sure it

16:55
probably took way too long

16:57
you know formal phased retirements is a

17:00
really big one and i think that if we

17:02
can get there that'll be a big

17:04
behavioral one that'll be beneficial is

17:06
this expectation that people are just

17:08
supposed to retire one day they still

17:10
work a full day and the next day they're

17:11
in retirement

17:13
there's a lot of negatives with that

17:15
now retirees are on the whole happier

17:19
however you have more depressed people

17:22
in retirement than you do of the whole

17:23
population too so even though you get

17:26
more people that move upscale to a happy

17:28
level so it pulls the average up the

17:30
number of people who actually lose

17:32
meaning because their work goes away

17:34
they become more isolated also increases

17:37
and so that's a group that i think gets

17:39
lost because you see a lot of the stats

17:41
say oh retired grandparents are the

17:43
happiest people in the world true but

17:45
then there's this other group that gets

17:46
isolated that we kind of forget about

17:48
because

17:49
averages tell a terrible story and i

17:51
think that's a big group that honestly

17:53
we need to do better on helping them

17:55
find meaning sustainable income all of

17:57
those things and they're getting lost

17:59
and i

18:01
i don't i don't say that we have a

18:02
retirement crisis on our hands but

18:05
individuals obviously have retirement

18:07
crises on their hands

18:10
well and with the you know there's a

18:11
demographic title wave that's happening

18:13
with you know 10 000 baby boomers

18:15
reaching age 65 which i'm just getting

18:17
ready to say i'm i'll call that chapter

18:19
two

18:20
we can call it decumulation or second

18:23
stage but it's chapter two of your life

18:25
is what i tell people and you know being

18:28
from the south and growing up in the

18:29
south and you you'll giggle from this

18:31
because when you went to davidson you

18:32
started eating barbecue and and and you

18:34
got that twang in your voice right um i

18:37
always tell people there's new there's

18:38
no u-hauls behind hearses

18:40
and um and if you if you see one take a

18:43
picture what i'm trying to tell people

18:45
is live for the day

18:46
and and you know

18:49
covet has taught us one thing that life

18:51
is fragile

18:52
how are you

18:54
when people come to you and and they're

18:56
they're worried about retirement

18:58
um

18:59
how are you encouraging people to try to

19:01
live for the day even though they've

19:03
been box checkers and planners and

19:05
savers and scrimpers their whole life

19:07
that's who's listening to this podcast

19:09
that person that has

19:10
in their world made it to the finish

19:12
line and they've done a heck of a job

19:13
doing it

19:15
and now it kind of needs to be about

19:17
them how do you make it about them

19:20
you have to start in my view with

19:23
planning and it have to give people

19:26
confidence that where they're going they

19:28
can get there there's a lot of different

19:30
ways to do that it's not one not one way

19:33
but to show people that there's a path

19:36
to where they want to go and and

19:38
community does that for people in

19:40
certain areas right it's right why

19:41
people join things like churches why

19:44
people join things like aa because they

19:46
want to see that somebody else has done

19:48
it before

19:49
and you know working with professionals

19:52
can do that because they have worked

19:53
with hundreds or thousands or a firm

19:55
might have helped thousands of people

19:57
achieve a better retirement and so then

19:59
all of a sudden you know it's possible

20:01
and then they start showing you the

20:03
steps that you can take to be proactive

20:05
about getting there sometimes you know

20:07
some individuals just need to see

20:09
numbers run and presented back to them

20:11
and say look you actually can spend this

20:13
and here's what the data numbers and

20:15
analytics show and what you can actually

20:17
spend

20:18
and that you're not going to run out of

20:19
money and you see people who you know

20:22
save save save live their whole

20:24
retirement don't spend anything and die

20:25
with millions of dollars left over uh we

20:28
had one of our advisors recently telling

20:30
us a story about how he actually gave

20:32
one of his clients a new jacket because

20:34
the client was literally worth millions

20:36
of dollars and had worn the same jacket

20:37
for 20 some years right now and here's

20:40
the sad part when he passed away they

20:42
said they were cleaning out his home the

20:43
jacket was still wrapped up he never

20:45
unwrapped the jacket it was still in the

20:46
plastic right wouldn't even use

20:48
something that was given to him

20:50
because he was that concerned about

20:52
running out of money

20:54
and you know those things are you know

20:56
those things are always kind of sad

20:57
because you're probably not living your

20:59
best life you're probably not enjoying

21:01
things to the level that you could and i

21:03
think another big piece is you know

21:05
health is wealth so you know mental

21:07
health physical wealth i think when you

21:09
brought up the covet in this last year

21:11
and a half is you know those are

21:13
important things that you saw people

21:15
that are not here anymore that because

21:17
their health wasn't good or they passed

21:19
away and no matter how much wealth you

21:21
accumulated as you said you don't get to

21:23
take that with you uh you know maybe

21:25
ancient egyptians believe that but i

21:27
don't think most people do anymore we

21:29
don't get buried with our belongings

21:31
very often so i think part of it is

21:33
figuring out just what you want to

21:35
accomplish and i always tell people how

21:37
do you want to make those feel that you

21:39
care about when you pass away right how

21:41
do you want to make them feel

21:43
not what do you want to give them but

21:44
how do you want to make them feel do you

21:46
want them to you know say oh you know

21:48
mom and dad they were just penny

21:50
pinchers they never spent a dollar

21:52
right is that is that really how you

21:53
want to make them feel when you pass

21:55
away or that you were unplanned for your

21:57
death and i think it's a really

21:58
important question

22:00
estate planning attorneys don't ask it

22:02
very much but it's a great question to

22:03
ask yourself you know how do you want to

22:05
make people feel when you're gone

22:07
and daryl green so we talked about

22:10
sports before yeah east coast so daryl

22:12
green and i talked one time and

22:14
i actually explained to the people who

22:16
daryl green is yeah so daryl green is

22:19
the arguably i mean top three uh

22:22
cornerback ever to play in the national

22:24
football maybe the fastest person ever

22:26
in the national football league yep

22:27
arguably the fastest so i think for a

22:29
good 15 years he was something like that

22:32
he was the fastest man in the nfl they

22:34
used to race so people forget about that

22:36
but in the late 80s and 90s they used to

22:38
actually race for that title

22:40
and uh you know he yeah i think he's

22:43
maybe second or third all time from the

22:45
the clock uh going through combine-based

22:48
stuff um he's still up there in the top

22:50
three but played for washington you won

22:53
a couple super bowls played under hall

22:55
of fame coach joe gibbs who then went on

22:57
for jgr racing and uh he he told me one

23:01
time too he's one of the more humble

23:02
people i've ever met right he's in the

23:04
hall of fame

23:05
one of the top people ever to play the

23:06
game one of the fastest people ever be

23:08
alive and he's just amazingly humble

23:11
like so humble that you're like like i

23:13
want you to like tell me cool stories

23:15
about you just shutting people down but

23:17
he won't he just talks you know and it's

23:20
amazing because he said i don't want to

23:22
be remembered as a football player

23:24
because i want to be remembered as dale

23:25
green a great man oh and by the way he

23:27
he played football and i thought that

23:29
was such an amazing thing to think about

23:31
right and he he brought that up because

23:33
of jack kent cook being a football owner

23:36
and he goes sure you know i don't i

23:37
don't want to be remembered like that oh

23:39
you had all that but they think about

23:40
all the stuff he must have done in his

23:41
lifetime but he's only remembered for

23:44
owning a team

23:45
right like it is obviously important to

23:47
him but wouldn't you rather be

23:48
remembered as oh daryl green a great

23:50
person to know by the way right he was a

23:53
financial advisor right like i i think

23:56
that's a really cool way to look at

23:57
things right just how you want to be

23:59
remembered and are you going to be

24:00
remembered for the things that that you

24:02
actually want to be remembered for

24:04
or are you going to be remembered for

24:05
things that you don't necessarily care

24:07
as much that people look at you about

24:09
and

24:10
all that you know ties into your

24:12
retirement right how are you going to

24:13
live your life are you going to be

24:14
giving back or are you going to be

24:16
remembered as the person who passed away

24:17
never spent a single dollar and never

24:19
looked happy while they did it

24:21
how does jamie hopkins want to change

24:24
the game i know you're where i talk

24:25
about legacy but

24:27
what's your drive i mean what you're

24:29
getting up in the morning you're you're

24:31
you know you're a swimmer you get up

24:32
early right uh what's the drive for

24:35
jamie hopkins to change things in the

24:37
retirement income planning world which

24:39
has been static for a long long time

24:42
and you have people like you out there

24:44
and then you have really freaky people

24:46
like me that are these these you know

24:48
these other personalities that are

24:50
trying to tell the truth about these

24:51
things what are you trying to do and

24:54
change in the industry or are you

24:57
i absolutely am i you know i i i have a

25:00
number tied to it but maybe i just need

25:02
to change it there's nothing magical

25:03
about the number but i set out with uh

25:06
just putting it down one time said i'd

25:07
like to make retirement secure for more

25:10
than a million americans and there's no

25:12
reason it only has to be americans or

25:14
that it only has to be limited to a

25:16
million people but it it felt good at

25:18
the beginning

25:19
the reality is actually you know if i

25:21
could track stuff maybe i've already had

25:23
an impact on a million people i don't

25:24
know but uh the drive behind it's a very

25:27
simple uh but also complex story which

25:30
just goes back to my family it's

25:32
personal and

25:33
i you know eight years old i'll do the

25:36
quick version of this but

25:37
this is this is the part that my my

25:40
listeners want to know

25:41
and i'm assuming a lot of your customers

25:43
would be interested in knowing and i

25:45
want to know how you tick so yeah go go

25:48
deep as you want to go yeah so um you

25:50
know i grew up outside baltimore uh

25:52
neither one of my parents graduated from

25:54
college my dad did roofing

25:56
uh gutters fascia siding all stuff high

25:59
up on the ladder my mom helped run a

26:01
business with them so that's what they

26:03
did

26:04
and i was eight years old my dad goes up

26:06
on a ladder it starts to rain

26:08
temperatures drop and you know aluminum

26:10
ladders freeze over faster than a roof

26:12
does so he's coming down he slips falls

26:15
and passes away right there um you know

26:18
all of a sudden then my mom who you know

26:20
how old were you jamie eight years old

26:22
so i've got a four younger sisters i'm

26:24
eight neither parent graduated college

26:26
no life insurance right no term policy

26:28
now this is the you know i don't go out

26:30
and sell insurance today i'm not a

26:32
licensed insurance agent okay uh so this

26:35
is not a sales pitch for term but i

26:37
always tell people that's the you know

26:39
my family i would have been better off

26:41
my mom would have been better off and

26:42
that's the perfect example right you got

26:44
you got you know essentially one income

26:47
earner in the sense of right is the one

26:50
out there doing the work now my mom was

26:52
earning income and she still is actually

26:53
running that business today um you know

26:56
37 years later or whatever

26:59
but right at that moment there was no

27:02
one else to go out and do the work right

27:03
you can't you can't make money doing

27:05
construction if nobody can go out and do

27:07
the work it's the perfect person to have

27:10
term insurance you got young kids

27:11
high-risk job you know no college and

27:14
they didn't have that planning that

27:15
planning didn't get to people in the

27:17
construction world right it doesn't

27:18
really today either the industry is not

27:20
set up to to get advice down to people

27:23
like that that definitely need it and

27:24
even simple pieces of advice

27:26
so you fast forward and you know

27:29
kind of uh i got a lot of great

27:31
opportunities my mom kept working she

27:33
put us through college i got

27:35
opportunities to get scholarships i was

27:37
a good enough swimmer to get a

27:38
scholarship i wasn't a great swimmer i

27:41
went to a great school though davidson

27:43
um got to you know go to law school took

27:45
out a bunch of loans like a lot of other

27:47
people and uh just started seeing tv ads

27:50
and started seeing the tv ads and say

27:52
come do your retirement planning here

27:53
with us and i kept thinking what does

27:55
somebody like my mom do who's never had

27:57
a pension who's never had a 401k um you

28:00
know who didn't have an ira at that time

28:01
and what do they do um they're gonna be

28:03
very reliant on social security and

28:05
medicare and their home and you know

28:08
that's the reality of where my mom is

28:10
today

28:11
uh but you

28:13
i started seeing that and then i got the

28:14
opportunity to clerk in the appellate

28:16
division and one of the cases i got to

28:18
work on was one of bernie madoff's cases

28:21
and uh it showed you the opposite of

28:23
what you would like to see in this

28:24
profession right which that was the

28:26
abuse of trust

28:28
versus the trusted advisor who is

28:31
actually helping people move forward and

28:33
um you know it just kind of all the

28:35
pieces were starting to click then that

28:37
there was this huge right you just see

28:39
the data and you said the 10 000 hitting

28:41
65 every day and you saw the data you

28:44
saw these tv ads every time you turned

28:46
on the tv there was a fidelity or other

28:48
ad on there they did good ads but i just

28:50
knew that there was a gap out there and

28:52
then i um you know i did some estate

28:54
planning work i worked on some pension

28:56
cases i worked in private equity and

28:59
then eventually i got an opportunity to

29:01
kind of shift specifically into the

29:03
income planning field and i spent seven

29:05
years at american college uh with my

29:08
co-director there david lately building

29:10
out the ricp for people who don't know

29:12
that retirement income certified

29:14
professional and over seven years we we

29:17
uh impacted right around 18 000

29:20
financial advisors and agents had went

29:22
through that sure

29:23
you know college program and that's a

29:26
lot um to put that in perspective it was

29:28
more during that stretch than we're

29:29
going into the cfp so

29:32
but it you know that's not because i'm

29:34
magic or david was magic we were in the

29:36
right space at the right time and

29:38
everyone was saying come work with this

29:39
but nobody was really doing training and

29:42
education and research on it and it's

29:44
it's it's done very well and so it's you

29:46
know if you think about you know i i

29:48
don't know what the numbers are now i've

29:49
been gone for three years

29:52
and i

29:53
for professorship at creighton and then

29:54
i joined carson because i actually had

29:57
another insight my other insight was i

29:59
had an advisor that went through and he

30:02
came to a presentation later on of mine

30:04
and i was presenting on roth conversions

30:06
and some tax efficient uh ways to manage

30:09
a retirement income portfolio

30:11
and i think i saw him two years again

30:13
later i think it was two years and he

30:15
comes up to me goes jamie do you have

30:16
that slide deck from that presentation

30:18
two years ago

30:20
they go yeah i could get it too because

30:21
yeah there was a lot of stuff i wanted

30:23
to implement from that but never really

30:24
got around to it and i just remember

30:26
thinking like this is depressing right

30:29
there's this person who went through

30:30
this program great he did that he showed

30:32
up to another presentation still

30:33
interested in it but somehow two years

30:36
had passed

30:37
and he hadn't actually taken any of that

30:39
and put it into practice

30:40
and it was depressing for me because i

30:42
thought you know here i am i'm educating

30:44
i'm helping advisors get better and then

30:46
i realize that unless i take another

30:48
step forward and i'm actually able to

30:50
create the systems and the processes

30:52
that help them implement this with the

30:55
clients

30:56
i'm educating but i'm not changing and

30:59
obviously education is very important

31:00
but i have personally um you know i i'm

31:03
big supporter of education but i've also

31:05
personally changed my mindset on that

31:07
that at one point i thought you could

31:08
just educate people

31:10
and the world would change

31:13
and now i know education is a piece of

31:15
it it's not the solution and

31:17
interestingly enough there's actually a

31:19
ton of research which i didn't know at

31:20
the time about how uh ineffective

31:23
education alone is in most areas right

31:26
that it does need to be coupled with

31:28
opportunity systems processes you know

31:30
uh but education is still important and

31:33
it's also it's often a very cost

31:35
effective way to do things and implement

31:37
change right building technology and

31:39
systems to get people into is very

31:40
expensive educating people tends to be

31:43
fairly cheap in comparison so i i looked

31:47
out for a place that i thought was just

31:48
interesting and was building systems

31:51
that would help advisors create more

31:53
secure retirement for their clients and

31:56
i found carson and ended up joining here

31:59
and have spent three years here now

32:01
feeling like we're doing that

32:03
and you know we've uh you know we impact

32:05
a lot of households is the way we look

32:07
at things at our firm we have served 39

32:10
000 households now which is a lot so i'm

32:14
not at the million internally yet but uh

32:17
you know that's a lot of individuals uh

32:19
getting help and a lot more people still

32:21
need it though right when you think

32:22
about that number as the grand scheme of

32:24
the world it's not even a percent of a

32:26
percent right it's a a very small piece

32:29
of the overall pie

32:31
but that's what makes it easy for me so

32:33
if you get back to the end of the day

32:35
people are like well you work pretty

32:36
hard jamie and you get up early and you

32:38
work late and all these different things

32:40
that i'm involved with it's easy because

32:43
what i tell people is my what you know

32:44
my why makes me cry it's very easy i'll

32:46
never i'll never have a moment in my

32:48
life where you know where i'm like i

32:49
don't want to work anymore i don't want

32:51
to do that because it's very easy you

32:53
think about your mom and your dad and

32:54
your dad passed away in your aid and

32:56
leaving your family in that situation

32:58
your mom's struggling for all those

32:59
years i'm never gonna get tired of that

33:01
i'm never gonna not have that as a

33:03
driving factor and so when we you know

33:06
when i coach people too i always say

33:08
that right find a why that makes you cry

33:10
and

33:11
if you have that right you'll be able to

33:13
outwork other people and i know a lot of

33:15
people think they work hard

33:17
but typically people who have that why

33:20
deeply rooted they understand it they

33:22
can go back to it they pull from it like

33:25
a well they can outwork other people and

33:27
a lot of it just comes down to that are

33:28
you willing to put in the extra and

33:30
that's that's my driving why so it's uh

33:32
you know it's personal and it's i think

33:34
most wise should be right great great

33:37
background great foundation for the

33:40
listeners and viewers the why that makes

33:42
you cry can that be applied to the

33:44
retiree or the person going towards

33:47
retirement planning for retirement

33:50
can you explain what and give some

33:52
examples possibly of the why that makes

33:54
you cry for people that are going to

33:56
chapter two of their life

33:58
absolutely i mean you can use that in

34:00
any area of your life

34:02
it just takes work it takes work on

34:04
driving down into yourself and

34:07
understanding what makes you click what

34:08
you're afraid of

34:10
so a great example of this is i was

34:12
talking to dr brad klontz one time who's

34:14
a fantastic author and writer and he was

34:17
talking about i think it's his great

34:19
grandmother right um was you know super

34:22
conservative with her spending and how

34:24
she approached things and even some of

34:26
that still impacts him today

34:28
and you know you can look at things like

34:30
that like you know maybe you have a

34:32
family member you don't want to be like

34:33
and you don't want to live the life that

34:35
they did or as i said you know you want

34:38
to change like you're very involved with

34:40
your church and you want to leave a

34:42
lasting legacy and impact so how are you

34:44
going to live your retirement to

34:45
actually give back and make meaningful

34:47
change there and if you every day you

34:49
wake up and say you know what i'm doing

34:50
something positive today with my life

34:52
and i'm living my retirement in a way

34:54
that's going to you know show the change

34:56
that i want to have or

34:58
maybe your parents or grandparents

35:00
passed away when you're young and you

35:01
didn't get to spend time with you know

35:02
you never got to spend time with your

35:04
grandparents and you want to make sure

35:06
that your grandchildren have that time

35:08
with you i mean that's a why that would

35:09
make you cry right being able to have

35:11
grandchildren that grow up you know

35:13
loving the experiences that they had

35:15
with you and that's how you design where

35:18
you want to live how you want to spend

35:19
your time and so i think all of those

35:22
right they can be different there's not

35:23
one answer for anyone there but i do

35:26
think if you get to retirement and you

35:27
say i have zero passions and i don't

35:29
have anything i care about right like

35:31
you're not gonna live a great retirement

35:32
right um whatever it might be like find

35:35
that piece then it might be you know

35:38
whatever it is for you i mean i think

35:39
that's deeply personal it's also why all

35:41
this stuff is called personal finance

35:43
because it's about you it's personal um

35:46
you know one of uh my friends paul west

35:48
always when he does presentations on

35:49
this he holds up his thumb and he says

35:51
what's this you know it's my thumbprint

35:53
it's unique to me just like your

35:54
retirement will be unique to you

35:58
i love that because the whole why that

36:00
makes you cry um

36:02
you know we could people talk about

36:04
money and get caught up in roi and get

36:06
caught up in what they have and can it

36:07
cover for long-term care and all the

36:09
stuff

36:11
but but i

36:12
totally agree with you as part of the

36:15
and i hate that we use the word holistic

36:17
but part of the whole planning

36:20
for people's retirement

36:22
um should involve the passion what's the

36:24
passion what are you doing you know what

36:27
just because you retire passion is not

36:28
flipping channels unless you're

36:31
you know professional channel flipper

36:33
and work for nielsen right i mean if

36:34
that's your passion but when you when

36:36
you're advising um

36:38
clients and working with the advisors

36:40
that were

36:42
at the firm you're with

36:44
are you always making sure that they're

36:46
asking that why

36:47
and making sure that there's a reason

36:50
for what's being done other than just

36:52
numbers in return

36:55
yeah so our you know process that we we

36:58
call the proven process internally which

37:01
is you know always working with people

37:04
on the emotional and soft

37:07
you know soft aspect of this first but

37:10
you do really have to dive in to

37:11
understand what's people's relationship

37:13
with their money what are their goals

37:15
you know how do they feel about things

37:17
versus just hopping in and saying hey

37:20
here's the numbers and uh our ceo talks

37:22
about it a lot he's like if you live and

37:24
die off the returns right you can't

37:26
control that end of day right returns

37:28
are going to be for the most part what

37:30
returns are and we're not out there

37:32
trying to outperform the market on

37:34
returns now there's a whole world out

37:35
there that's trying to do that and it's

37:37
not us and if you're looking for that

37:38
you got to go elsewhere and look for it

37:40
right if you think that there's magic

37:41
out there that you know that's that's

37:43
what you're looking for and some people

37:45
do right i mean there are there are

37:47
there's a portion of the world that's

37:48
looking for that and there'll be a

37:50
market then that serves you but it's not

37:51
kind of where planning lies the planning

37:53
doesn't lie in the notion of we're gonna

37:56
you know somehow find magic and you know

37:58
provide better returns or whatever it

38:00
might be so it's getting back to the

38:02
individuals starting with the proven

38:04
process working on um you know planning

38:07
and just seeing what does true wealth

38:10
mean to you and so that's a term we use

38:12
a lot here too is true wealth and if you

38:15
kind of think about like the the

38:17
hierarchy of needs which a lot of people

38:19
might remember from school which is you

38:21
know you take care of your bases and you

38:23
build off of it up until something

38:24
that's a little bit more you know

38:26
spiritual or detached from

38:29
the basics that you need and honestly

38:31
that can be applied to finances too that

38:33
you have to take care of your basic

38:35
income needs and spending needs

38:37
you know your food your health care your

38:39
housing your taxes and you build upon

38:41
that to get to the things that you know

38:43
might be legacy or meaning in your life

38:46
but you have to talk about those because

38:47
if you don't talk about them like what

38:49
are we doing there like why are we why

38:51
are we here to do planning

38:53
and you know i think all those questions

38:55
you know about family is important about

38:59
loss about legacy about how you want to

39:02
make others feel like why are you here

39:04
today at all i mean if it's you know

39:06
somebody says i'm here today because i

39:08
want better returns than my neighbor i

39:10
mean

39:12
that's that's a pretty short-sighted uh

39:14
view of the world so

39:16
i think helping people on that is often

39:18
good and a lot of people haven't done

39:20
that work either they haven't put in

39:22
that time and you know

39:24
you can view this relationship as a as a

39:27
coaching relationship in a lot of cases

39:29
too financial coaching is a term that's

39:32
out there now too

39:34
and some people need that and they need

39:35
to change their relationship with money

39:37
where they've come from an area of

39:40
stress and

39:42
you know not an abundance mindset and

39:45
they need to change they need to

39:47
fundamentally go back to that

39:48
relationship and change it and that

39:50
requires coaching it's not just planning

39:52
it requires having conversations and

39:54
thinking about what was your first

39:56
experience with money well it was being

39:58
on food stamps and not having enough

39:59
money okay well you're gonna approach

40:01
things differently than somebody else

40:03
who grew up wealthy and didn't have to

40:04
struggle and has always had an abundance

40:06
mindset and can spend spend spend

40:08
because they've never you know feel felt

40:11
the pain of being without money and so

40:13
those are those require different

40:15
approaches

40:17
looking at just retirement income

40:19
planning um what are some of the

40:21
misconceptions biases that you run

40:23
across that you're trying to clarify

40:25
with your work

40:27
yeah there's been a lot out there i

40:29
think one of them was that this

40:32
retirement income

40:34
you know

40:35
issue was somehow related to a lack of

40:38
financial literacy uh that's actually a

40:40
bias that we can kind of prove isn't

40:42
really the case now there is uh like an

40:45
income literacy gap out there and i know

40:48
people we've been talking about terms

40:49
people don't love literacy is a term

40:51
that p not everybody loves but it's one

40:53
that at least people understand what

40:54
we're talking about use it so for

40:57
purposes of conversation it functions uh

40:59
well as a communication tool

41:02
but if you look at people nearing

41:04
retirement we actually see most

41:06
americans have gained some sense of

41:07
financial literacy it does not mean

41:10
though that they're good at income

41:11
planning those are two different things

41:13
they're very different the testing for

41:15
both like we understand compound

41:17
interest and the value of savings and

41:19
long-term growth by the time we get to

41:21
retirement um

41:23
so that's a good thing but the flip side

41:25
is americans don't exhibit much

41:27
retirement income literacy and again it

41:29
makes sense because they haven't

41:31
experienced it

41:32
so i do think that that is a

41:34
juxtaposition that not a lot of people

41:36
get that i might be financial literate

41:38
but it doesn't mean i'm retirement

41:40
income literate and those are two

41:41
different things

41:43
the other one is i think there's a big

41:45
misconception about longevity and what

41:47
does that even mean

41:49
and what we do see there's a lot of data

41:51
that'll show people tend to

41:53
underestimate their own life expectancy

41:55
right we think we're gonna die earlier

41:58
than we're going to but at the same time

42:00
we also act as if we're immortal and

42:02
won't get sick and won't need long-term

42:04
care so we we have this very weird piece

42:07
right like well i'm obviously not going

42:08
to live to 90 but i'm not going to need

42:10
long-term care either and i'm like well

42:13
how are we playing both of these wrong

42:15
right

42:16
and so some things are just reframing

42:19
how you ask questions there and you know

42:22
if you're alive at 65 you're a couple

42:24
right it's more likely than not that one

42:26
of the two of you will be alive at you

42:27
know 90 95. you start looking at the

42:30
numbers like that and then you said like

42:32
if there was a greater than 50 percent

42:34
chance you'd be alive at this date would

42:35
you plan for it and if the answer is yes

42:37
then we need to change our planning

42:39
and if you frame the question like that

42:42
people answer yes if you say you expect

42:44
to live to 90 many fewer people say yes

42:47
so some of that is just you know that's

42:49
framing it's how information is

42:50
presented you changes your outcome and

42:53
that is truly what is considered

42:55
actually an irrational decision do you

42:57
make a decision differently just based

42:59
on the way that information is presented

43:01
so i think as an industry we've

43:02
presented information uh kind of

43:05
improperly for a long time even

43:08
something

43:09
you'll appreciate this one like

43:11
deferring social security

43:13
is uh i believe that we've kind of

43:15
messed that up because we've presented

43:17
the information incorrectly we always

43:19
tell people hey if you defer you get

43:21
eight percent more

43:22
well what are we telling people we're

43:23
saying take on additional risk to get a

43:26
higher guarantee exactly

43:28
well we know that people actually don't

43:30
chase

43:31
on average people don't like to chase

43:33
risk for higher return we'll chase risk

43:35
to get rid of loss

43:37
and we like to lock in

43:40
gains right like we want the certainty

43:42
of gain but we'll take risks to avoid

43:44
loss

43:45
it's a little bit odd but it is how

43:46
people react so telling people to defer

43:49
meaning i will skip my guarantees and i

43:52
will take on the risk of dying next year

43:54
to receive a gain is the incorrect way

43:56
to look at it what we need to present it

43:58
is you know if you claim today here's

44:01
how much total income you would be

44:02
giving up in your life that is a better

44:05
way to present it to most people not

44:07
everybody but to most people but it's

44:09
not how it's done right it's not how we

44:10
present anything um in that fashion and

44:13
so there are little things like that

44:15
those are learning how people react to

44:17
information and reframing those points

44:21
so you know deferral secure income

44:24
we talked about longevity and long-term

44:27
care all of those can be presented in

44:29
better ways to actually get people to

44:31
act upon them versus how we approach it

44:34
today which is more fear driven which is

44:36
a motivating factor but it's not as

44:38
powerful as some of the other ones that

44:39
we could use

44:41
you and we had weight foul on recently

44:43
and and um one of his books that i just

44:45
found fascinating was the you know the

44:47
the reverse mortgage book and i know

44:50
that you are one of the few handful of

44:51
people that

44:53
bravely address that and take the

44:55
pioneers take all the arrows right um

44:58
can you kind of explain how that works

45:01
from the standpoint of just how you

45:03
introduce that to people because i know

45:05
annuities get a bad rap and a lot of

45:07
that's deserved on some of the sales

45:09
practices that are going on out there

45:11
um but in the reverse mortgage side

45:14
um you know wade has a good take on that

45:16
i'd like to hear your take on that as

45:18
well

45:19
yeah so you know dr wade fowle and i are

45:22
pretty good friends he wrote the forge

45:23
of my book i was part of the college

45:27
in the income center when we hired him

45:29
to bring him in and he actually uh you

45:31
know that that's an area you said the

45:33
future right he was the future of the

45:35
program when i stepped out he was uh

45:37
right there behind me and stepped in as

45:38
a director and uh

45:41
so wade and i uh while we were at the

45:43
college we became involved with a group

45:45
at the time which was called the the

45:47
funding longevity task force and it was

45:49
a group of academics where we joke

45:52
eggheads that uh just talked about

45:54
reverse mortgages and started to be this

45:56
early group of researchers dr barry

45:59
sacks uh dr john salter at texas tech

46:02
and barry sachs is one of the more

46:03
intelligent people i've ever met i don't

46:05
know how many of these people i believe

46:07
he has a phd from mit and a jd from

46:11
harvard there's only you know what i

46:13
don't know how many of those there are

46:14
but it's a pretty good combo yeah yeah

46:18
so he's he's at least good at research

46:21
right um at a minimum and exactly uh

46:24
he's a very humble person he's one of

46:26
those people that also teaches you that

46:27
the smartest person in the room never

46:29
actually thinks they're the smartest

46:30
person in the room right if you asked

46:32
are you above or below average

46:33
intelligence he might put his hand up on

46:36
average intelligence and you're just

46:37
looking at him going barry there's

46:39
nothing average about you my friend

46:42
so this group came together and um you

46:45
know it was kind of based off of this

46:48
notion that that popped up two

46:49
researchers uh barry sacks and his

46:51
brother and john salter and harold

46:53
levinsky and for people who are

46:55
listening you don't have to worry about

46:56
who these people are they're just the

46:57
names of the researchers so we had two

47:00
groups in the same year that ended up

47:02
doing research about reverse mortgages

47:04
and the use of them because everything

47:06
was an even finra one of the regulating

47:08
bodies here in the financial industry

47:10
said use reverse mortgages as a last

47:13
resort that's been the status quo for a

47:15
long time right and so you got academics

47:18
that just decided to go test this

47:20
and what they found was that that was

47:23
wrong

47:24
that they're like none of the mass

47:26
supported it

47:27
and you know now it seems common sense

47:29
that obviously the mass shouldn't

47:30
support it but at the time people just

47:32
hadn't tested it and interestingly

47:34
enough this is the best thing for

47:35
academic research is that both of the

47:37
studies were occurring at the same time

47:39
unknown to each other and had similar

47:41
outcomes why is that really important in

47:44
the research world because it means that

47:45
we didn't have the bias of one existing

47:48
and impacting the research of future

47:50
researchers so while they were published

47:53
not at the exact same time they actually

47:55
finished their outcomes and were in

47:57
journal publication at the same time

47:59
which is huge and what those that

48:01
research found at the time was instead

48:04
of using home equity and reverse

48:06
mortgages as a line of last resort in

48:08
most situations you're going to be

48:10
better off using it early in retirement

48:14
and there's a basic fundamental

48:16
principle that underlies all this and i

48:18
always do this let's say we had three

48:20
assets one's gonna grow at three percent

48:23
one's gonna grow at five percent one's

48:24
going to grow at eight percent

48:27
and you get to retirement stand and i

48:28
say here's your three assets we got your

48:30
three percent bucket you're five percent

48:32
and you're eight percent

48:34
you choose which one to spend first and

48:36
how do you want to end up with the most

48:37
money which bucket do you spend first

48:39
you spend down your highest earning

48:41
asset first no of course not you leave

48:43
that for as long as possible do you set

48:45
your second highest earning asset

48:47
next no you probably don't you probably

48:49
spend what you spend your lowest earning

48:51
asset first right

48:53
it makes perfect you know all else being

48:55
equal makes perfect sense

48:57
well essentially houses you look at the

48:59
shiller index growth about three percent

49:01
historical right throughout the course

49:03
of the united states bonds were closer

49:05
to four to five percent equities are

49:06
closer to eight depending on which

49:08
equities you're looking at

49:10
okay so if we get to retirement should

49:12
we keep our home to our final asset that

49:14
really all homes do historically is keep

49:17
pace with inflation

49:18
well actually we shouldn't because on

49:20
average that is going to keep our worst

49:22
performing return asset the longest and

49:25
spend down our other assets first

49:27
and so what the research essentially

49:30
found was use reverse mortgages and

49:32
downturns

49:34
right earlier in retirement or to help

49:37
defer the spending of other assets right

49:39
so if the market drops instead of

49:42
spending a bunch of your

49:44
right equities and bonds pool from your

49:47
home pool from your equity through a

49:49
reverse mortgage versus spending down

49:52
your stocks and bonds early during

49:54
volatile time periods and leaving your

49:55
home to the end and that's what they've

49:57
kind of deemed as the coordinated

49:59
strategy coordinating your home equity

50:02
distributions and spending along with

50:04
your other assets and you use the term

50:06
earlier it's a holistic approach

50:09
and honestly

50:10
there are very few

50:12
things in the world that i've ever seen

50:14
where just leaving something alone and

50:17
doing nothing with it is the best

50:19
strategy

50:21
right typically doing something is

50:24
better than doing nothing so it actually

50:26
makes perfect sense that some

50:27
coordination between the assets is

50:29
probably better than doing absolutely

50:32
nothing with it and that is what the

50:34
research has found

50:36
now uh telling the story of that group

50:38
it's obviously progressed a lot the laws

50:40
and the rules have changed the

50:42
researchers got in deeper and deeper

50:44
that group uh moved from there to part

50:46
of the american college when wade and i

50:48
were there and then when i left um i

50:50
kind of i guess shepherded it away

50:54
in a sense because i wasn't going to be

50:55
there anymore

50:57
wade's still part of it and we took it

50:59
to university of illinois and it is a

51:01
part of the university of illinois and

51:02
we still do research out of there it's

51:04
grown a little bit

51:06
where we've got some former hud members

51:08
and uh

51:10
additional researchers that have joined

51:12
since then

51:13
and it has broadened we do look at home

51:15
equity um it really it's uh you know it

51:18
is really the initiative now is around

51:20
home equity right and income planning

51:23
but

51:24
it's a big miss for a lot of people is

51:26
just having a bias against the product

51:28
now i agree the same way and i've said

51:30
this many times both about annuities and

51:32
reverse forages i believe both products

51:35
have been oversold and underutilized

51:38
which means i don't love the sales

51:39
practices and there were a lot of uh in

51:42
the reverse spaces especially one of the

51:44
issues was people were compensated based

51:47
off of the dollar amount that you pulled

51:49
out of the loan

51:50
that actually doesn't tie to any best

51:52
practices of research i mean and the

51:54
clear bias there is if i am a loan

51:56
officer there and that's how i'm

51:57
compensated i'm trying to get you to

51:58
pull all the money out by day one even

52:00
if you need it or don't need it that's

52:02
obviously not a good practice and i

52:03
don't support it

52:05
but you know integration of home equity

52:08
and retirement planning is important

52:10
the american dream can turn into the

52:12
american stream right

52:15
i'm always thinking about marketing how

52:17
do you how do you frame it in english

52:19
too

52:20
so that people understand it but

52:22
i haven't even gotten to the list of

52:25
topics so that means you have to come

52:26
back on in the future jamie the truth

52:30
but um any last i got to kind of close

52:33
it up because uh you know people have to

52:35
get off the treadmill um or get out of

52:37
their car so what any any sage advice

52:40
for the listeners and viewers from jamie

52:42
the truth hopkins

52:44
well i thought it was the future now i'm

52:46
you know paul pierce the truth the truth

52:49
it is you are the future no and all

52:51
kidding you are the future and and i say

52:54
that

52:54
with respect but also the fact that i

52:57
think you're kind of like me you're very

52:59
serious about what you do but you don't

53:01
take yourself too seriously yeah well i

53:03
would say here's here's something i give

53:05
to everyone i write this in the book two

53:07
requirement which is challenge what you

53:09
think is true

53:10
okay there are lots of examples of

53:13
things we know to be true that we're

53:14
wrong about and i use this example as

53:16
more of a you know normal one because

53:18
everyone knows the answer

53:21
what's the one thing stan you know about

53:23
napoleon

53:25
i'm taller than he is

53:28
right everybody knows that napoleon

53:31
right or most people

53:33
was uh a shorter you know a short person

53:36
right there's a napoleon complex named

53:38
after it

53:39
vertically challenged is what i call it

53:41
right right

53:43
and then here's the thing we know as a

53:45
fact that napoleon was an above average

53:47
height individual

53:49
he was in he was an above average height

53:51
person

53:53
and all of a sudden you're like no no

53:55
they can't be true they can go look it

53:56
up we've got all that you know they have

53:58
everything about it the only reason we

54:00
believe that napoleon was short

54:02
was because of british propaganda during

54:04
the war they drew him as a tiny short

54:06
fat guy on the horse to discredit him

54:10
very nice i said it with confidence

54:11
because i'm six six so i'm pretty sure

54:14
oh yeah no i could post him up and score

54:16
at will

54:17
on him on napoleon

54:19
you you easily could have posted him up

54:21
and remember everybody was sure and then

54:22
some people bring it up well you know he

54:24
was only five foot six or whatever i'm

54:26
like but that's irrelevant because at

54:28
the time he was

54:29
a taller person right he would be a six

54:31
foot one person today

54:33
you know so no napoleon wasn't short but

54:36
everybody believes that to be true i

54:38
mean you probably could even get a

54:39
jeopardy question which what is you know

54:41
and get that one wrong and those things

54:43
are amazing to me and the fact that we

54:45
just believe that they're true we don't

54:47
challenge things that is true all across

54:49
the board you believe that reverse

54:50
mortgages are bad and evil products in

54:53
themselves are very rare you see the ad

54:55
that says i hate all annuities yep i

54:57
hate annuities well you know we don't we

55:00
don't have enough time to dive into that

55:02
one but next time next time i mean i

55:04
always tell people you already own one

55:06
it's called social security so you can't

55:07
hate it that much or you need to call

55:09
the government and cancel the payments

55:11
jamie the future i really appreciate it

55:13
it's been a pleasure

55:15
i'm having you on i'm going to hold you

55:16
to the fact that you nodded your head

55:18
that you will come back on because i

55:19
want to get into

55:21
a lot more details but um i really

55:23
enjoyed learning about who you who you

55:25
are what makes you tick the background

55:28
i've certainly been a follower of your

55:29
work as i'm sure all of my a lot of my

55:31
clients and and people listen to this

55:34
but i really appreciate you uh you

55:36
joining us and with that i want to thank

55:38
everyone for joining us on fun with

55:40
annuities where our saying here is

55:42
living the reality not the dream i will

55:44
see you

55:45
next week

55:51
thanks for listening to fun with

55:53
annuities please hit the subscribe

55:55
button and make sure to go to my site at

55:57
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55:58
annuityman.com where you can run your

56:00
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56:15
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56:18
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56:20
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56:23
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56:25
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56:28
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56:31
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56:41
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56:45
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56:56
you