061 John Lenz: The Annuity Mechanic Thinks Outside The Box

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welcome to

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fun with annuities with your host me

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stan

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the annuity man america's annuity agent

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can annuities be fun

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can contractual guarantees be fun

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absolutely they can

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find out the brutal facts about

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annuities with no sales pitches or high

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pressure nonsense

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just the brutal and factual annuity

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truth which is all you need to hear

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let's have some fun with annuities and

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let's have that fun

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start right now

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[Music]

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welcome to fun with annuities i'm your

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host stan

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the annuity man america's annuity agent

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licensed in

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all 50 states welcome to all the podcast

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listeners

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and of course i have a fun with

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annuities youtube channel that you can

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watch

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me and my facial expressions and all of

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the uh the gear that i have

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on i'm rocking the blue today for the

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podcast listeners

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great guest today his name is john

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lenn's personal friend of mine but an

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absolute guru when it comes to life

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insurance and annuities

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and um he's the founder of lens

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financial but

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i'm going to let him tell you a little

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bit about himself because

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there's not many people in the annuity

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industry that's been doing it longer

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than i have and i've been at three

1:21
decades

1:22
john is at the four decades level so

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that's pretty good so um

1:29
welcome john linz tell everybody about

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yourself

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hey stan enough about me let's talk

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about you

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no no no i'm uh this is this is year 41

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for me i used to be the young guy in the

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room like you did

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and now i'm just an old experienced war

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horse uh i had to describe myself i'd

1:47
say i was an annuity mechanic

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i don't know really much about anything

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else um but i've uh i have been

1:54
lucky to work around annuities on the

1:55
design side distribution side

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i'm a consumer of an annuity uh one two

2:00
three annuities for my own retirement

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plan

2:03
and annuities are pretty boring as you

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know they only go up and sideways

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the good ones right and so uh you know

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what i've tried to do is

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expand my uh annuity base into things

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that are a little outside the nine dot

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box

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i know you've covered a lot of that so

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i'm looking forward today to talking

2:19
about some of the

2:20
interesting ways that annuities can be

2:22
used especially for people who can't

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manage money

2:26
and we're going to do something a little

2:28
different because obviously i do a lot

2:29
of content people that are familiar with

2:31
me i've got

2:31
hundreds and hundreds of videos on the

2:33
standy nudity man youtube channel i've

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written 400

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articles i've written seven books and

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all of the stuff that i do is really

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making annuities simple

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and they should be because they're

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contracts and you should buy them for

2:43
the contractual guarantees

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what i like about what john is doing is

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it's really some advanced

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planning stuff really heady stuff but

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it's still all contractual

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it's not pie in the sky it's not

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unicorns chasing the butterflies

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you know it is it is outside the box

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thinking

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that um you know we're gonna we're gonna

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go over some again

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examples um let's talk about let's let's

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get into the first one which is called

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spin

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thrift planning which most people aren't

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familiar with so

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take us down a notch like from your iq

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john lens and explain spin thrift

3:17
planning and maybe an example or two so

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if the listeners

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it makes sense to them um they can

3:22
connect with you

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sure well thanks um yeah spin thrift

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is a fancy word for someone who's not

3:30
really great with money

3:32
and there's certainly uh plenty of those

3:34
people running around

3:35
uh including me at times in my life so

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yeah i get calls occasionally from

3:41
advisors like yourself

3:43
or attorneys uh people who

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may find themselves unexpectedly as an

3:48
executor or executrix

3:50
of an estate or a trustee and they've

3:53
got

3:54
somebody who's a beneficiary who's

3:56
really not very good with money

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you know i'll i'll start with uh a case

4:02
you and i

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talked a little bit about but uh i was

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on the phone with the gentleman he was

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75 years old

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lived in california a really good guy i

4:09
mean just the salt of the earth guy and

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i was on with his advisor

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and his attorney and we got to know each

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other a little bit

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excuse me and he said you know john i

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said

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it's been a great life i'm 75 years old

4:22
and i'm probably not going to see my

4:23
76th birthday

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and he was very pragmatic and

4:28
not too worried about it he said i've

4:30
got pancreatic cancer

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it's going to kill me and it's probably

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going to kill me within a few months

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he said uh i'm divorced uh not in touch

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with my ex-wife i've got one kid

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he's 55 years old and uh

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love of my life and besides

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gambling alcohol drugs

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fast cars and fast women he is a super

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great kid and

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uh he paused you know and i i said yeah

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he sounds uh

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sounds like my kind of guy absolutely

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and he said uh

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he's a great kid but i'm gonna leave him

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about 700 000

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and if i leave it to him in a lump sum

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he will

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can't really swear on the stand the

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annuity man youtube channel right but

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he's going to fetter it away fritter it

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away

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yeah uh in a short period of time and

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i'm worried about him

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i'm actually more worried about handing

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him my loaded gun

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than i am this much money because i just

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don't know what's going to happen to him

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yeah

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hold that for thought i call this and

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people that listen to me know

5:33
this is called lovingly handcuffing your

5:35
beneficiaries

5:37
that's that's really what you're doing

5:39
is you're contractually handcuffing them

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um to not fly in on a helicopter to your

5:45
funeral

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and get in a lamborghini that they

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bought with cash i mean

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that's what you're doing so go forward

5:52
with what what we're doing with this

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handcuffing

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and spin thrift planning sure well you

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know one of the obvious options this

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gentleman was a lawyer

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and he could have set up a trust hired a

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trustee put this money in there

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and then had the trustee dole the money

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out to the spend thrift child

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over a period of years he could have put

6:13
in their sobriety test or

6:16
employment you know qualifications but

6:18
he realized that you know that's going

6:20
to eat up the annuity or the annuity the

6:22
trust balance that you know one percent

6:24
a year or more

6:26
then the son could hire his own lawyer

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and demand a lump sum

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sure so what he decided to do uh he was

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talking to

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again his attorney and his advisor and i

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and what we set up was

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uh an income stream for his son

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that would go into effect either at the

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dad's death

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or prior to his death and we looked at

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both options what we ended up doing was

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creating a 25-year

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income stream for the kid before dad

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died

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we did that so that the policy the

6:56
annuity the immediate annuity payment

6:58
stream

6:59
would be seasoned and irrevocable

7:02
non-commutable non-surrenderable it

7:05
couldn't sell them to late night tv

7:07
it's your money you want it now people

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right

7:11
all he's going to do is get a check for

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about 25 or 2600

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a month for most of the rest of his life

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and i'll tell you everybody was super

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happy

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the son didn't know anything about it

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didn't know about his dad's net worth

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and when dad died which he did those

7:27
payments

7:27
went to the sun and i don't know i guess

7:31
he can

7:31
gamble and run around with drugs and

7:34
alcohol but only at 2500 a month

7:36
yeah but but on a monthly on a monthly

7:38
stipend i always say that

7:40
and there's a lot of listeners and

7:41
viewers out there that are saying yes

7:43
i have those wondering ambiguities of

7:46
children

7:47
that either are the musician types and i

7:50
can say that because i'm a

7:52
musician thank goodness that's not that

7:54
wouldn't pay the bills but the point is

7:56
you can set something up to where you

7:59
know

7:59
you're controlling it from the grave but

8:01
it's not like you're a control freak

8:02
you're lovingly controlling it and and

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really

8:06
saving them from themselves correct

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yeah i mean i know we like to joke

8:11
around a little bit but

8:13
giving somebody that amount of money

8:15
that's not good with money

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yeah it's not a good formula i mean in

8:19
in all seriousness

8:21
um the the corollary to this

8:24
is a more typical case where there's

8:26
more than one kid

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and it's typically the good daughter and

8:31
again the son that's got those

8:33
some of those problems and they're you

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know their mom and dad have got a living

8:37
trust

8:38
they've named good daughters the trustee

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right

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and all of a sudden you know her money's

8:44
available in a lump sum but they want

8:45
the

8:45
income stream settled to the boy right

8:48
think about the sibling problems that

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creates when you leave the

8:52
little sister in charge of big ugly

8:54
brother's money

8:55
i didn't even say ugly uh big brother's

8:58
money and now all of a sudden things can

9:00
get ugly between

9:01
siblings how do you do that one

9:04
like what what's give me an example of

9:06
of the multiple

9:08
you know brother sister or brother

9:09
brother sister and how do you

9:12
how do you do that so that they're not

9:14
throwing hay makers at the funeral at

9:16
each other

9:18
yeah usually it's after the funeral when

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the trust is uh reviewed

9:22
uh and you know dad's gone and i mean

9:25
think about it as

9:26
you've got kids right that's why uh

9:29
the last thing i want at my funeral is

9:32
for my children to be bickering with

9:34
each other over money

9:36
and and money brings out the worst in

9:37
people right it's just the way it is

9:40
so what we there's a couple of

9:42
strategies there

9:43
not everybody wants to buy an

9:45
irrevocable income stream

9:47
during their lifetime so a person in

9:49
their

9:50
trust can instruct the trustee to

9:53
purchase

9:54
an immediate annuity which is a payment

9:56
stream right

9:57
to spend for the spendthrift beneficiary

9:59
the beneficiary of the trust

10:01
that would start after the death of the

10:04
grantor of the trust

10:05
right so that's usually how we'll do

10:08
that

10:09
the other the other thing we do when a

10:10
trust is not involved

10:12
is have an insurance company use their

10:15
form

10:15
that says you know when john dies uh his

10:19
son uh i've got sons jason david and

10:23
ryan

10:24
and uh jason and david can have their

10:27
money in a lump sum

10:28
but ryan is restricted to taking his

10:31
money out over a 15-year period

10:33
and many really great insurance

10:35
companies can put that language

10:37
in their contract so that's the only

10:39
option it's a payment stream

10:42
and people need to remember and i say

10:44
this all the time annuities are

10:45
contracts

10:46
and so you know you can use those

10:48
contracts and customize those contracts

10:51
to achieve the specific goals that you

10:52
have in mind talking about lawyers for a

10:55
minute i don't like to talk about

10:56
lawyers a lot

10:57
even some of my best friends in the

10:59
world what type of lawyer

11:01
like someone says okay um i want to put

11:04
together this trust are they looking for

11:06
an estate planning lawyer are they

11:08
looking for a tax lawyer

11:09
what kind of lawyer are they looking for

11:12
yeah i'd say uh an estate planning

11:16
attorney is

11:17
probably the person that gets involved

11:19
in this uh

11:20
occasionally uh this is done with

11:23
where somebody goes into uh say an

11:26
attorney that handles special needs

11:27
trust

11:28
yeah um this isn't always about a kid

11:30
that just

11:31
doesn't know how to manage money it

11:32
could be about a child that just doesn't

11:34
have the

11:35
the mental wherewithal to handle the

11:38
money

11:38
and so an annuity can serve as a trust

11:42
uh you know poor man's trust i mean you

11:44
don't have to write a trust

11:45
uh to buy an annuity or if you use an

11:48
annuity in a situation like this

11:51
give me an example i get occasional

11:53
calls and they're tragic of the

11:56
of the child that is either um has been

11:59
in an accident or is handicapped special

12:02
needs

12:03
and the parents really want to take care

12:06
of them when they're gone and it's such

12:07
an important

12:09
um it's just the biggest checkbox they

12:11
have

12:12
give us some examples of how that might

12:14
work and it probably correlates with

12:16
what you just said but

12:17
maybe you have a case that that that

12:19
you've dealt with yeah so we're i'm

12:21
working on a case right now where

12:22
there's

12:23
two uh the couple is about 68 69 years

12:26
old

12:27
they married later in life they had

12:28
their children later in life and

12:30
tragically

12:31
uh their two children are both autistic

12:33
and the boys are in their

12:35
uh mid-20s now i mean that may or may

12:38
not have anything to do with when they

12:40
got married but

12:41
again boys are in their mid-20s they are

12:45
able to work at a very low level minimum

12:49
wage

12:50
uh not really manage money and the

12:52
parents

12:53
uh are 40 years older than the boys

12:56
so obviously these boys are going to be

12:59
without their financial support at some

13:01
point

13:02
so these parents have entered into

13:04
planning mode

13:05
big time there they're loving people

13:07
they took on the responsibility they

13:09
brought these kids into the world and

13:11
he was a in the medical profession so he

13:13
had pretty good income

13:15
so he's retired the first thing they did

13:17
was they they own some life insurance

13:19
and then they have a trust that

13:20
instructs the trustee to purchase

13:22
annuities for the lifetime payment

13:25
of both of these boys okay so they've

13:27
set aside assets and insurance

13:29
and instructions in a trust so that the

13:32
trustee will purchase

13:34
life insurance on the lifetime of each

13:37
of the boys

13:38
so that no matter how long those boys

13:40
live they'll have an income

13:42
the these people were extra smart they

13:44
realized that

13:45
you know these boys might live 40 years

13:47
without them and inflation is an issue

13:50
you know we've talked about that

13:51
inflation is is certainly a knock on an

13:53
annuity payment stream

13:54
sure so part of these annuities we set

13:57
up

13:58
as uh inflation protected annuities so

14:00
the price of the annual payment on the

14:02
annuity or monthly payment goes up

14:04
uh two to three percent per year for the

14:07
rest of their life no matter how long

14:08
they live

14:09
so that gives an ever-increasing income

14:12
stream

14:13
and i address inflation all the time no

14:14
one really knows and if they tell you

14:16
they know they don't

14:17
um annuity income streams can be

14:19
increased contractually

14:21
by just saying i want this cost of

14:23
living adjustment

14:24
cola to increase by two percent per year

14:27
or you can choose three percent per year

14:29
now the annuity companies have the big

14:30
buildings for a reason they don't give

14:31
that away

14:32
they ratchet down those payments but if

14:34
you do want to address

14:36
inflation and for in this specific

14:37
situation for the

14:39
um because their age it does make sense

14:42
um let's pivot so that's the

14:46
that's the spin thrift planning what i

14:48
call

14:49
lovingly handcuffing your beneficiaries

14:51
planning or

14:52
you know taking care of of

14:56
your kids or beneficiaries or someone

14:58
that

14:59
is is is bad with money i just did a

15:01
case recently

15:02
where it was the sister of a 75 year old

15:05
and she was a 72 year old sister

15:08
and put together something for her

15:09
because she just she spent whatever she

15:11
had

15:12
and and that was it so it doesn't have

15:14
to be kids it can be

15:16
it can be grown-ups that are going to

15:18
vegas every weekend

15:19
et cetera i mean they're just kids right

15:22
in in old bodies and there's nothing

15:25
magical about

15:26
uh some you know the ability to manage

15:28
money it's hard

15:29
big lump sums of money run through

15:32
people's fingers i mean look at the

15:33
data on lottery winners you take that

15:36
money in a lump sum

15:37
and you're out of dough in five years in

15:39
a lot of bankruptcies

15:40
people who take it over time much

15:42
happier professional athletes are the

15:44
same way

15:45
um it's just yeah it and with the

15:47
transfer of wealth that's getting ready

15:49
to happen with all of these baby boomers

15:50
getting older

15:52
and 10 000 of them turning 65 every

15:55
single day

15:56
um there's going to be these issues

15:58
these planning issues

15:59
are a big thing let's pivot to medicaid

16:02
planning i really want you to

16:04
to dig in because i get a lot of these

16:06
calls and of course our friends in dc

16:09
are always toying with taxing the rich

16:12
and i always tell my

16:13
my uh my listeners that if you don't

16:15
think you're the evil rich think again

16:18
right you are the evil rich so let's dig

16:21
in and give us some examples of medicaid

16:23
planning

16:24
using annuities and how that works sure

16:27
well it's a big topic and we could spend

16:29
an hour talking about it and not have

16:31
covered all the nuances so sure

16:33
it'll take a few minutes but medicaid is

16:35
not the evil rich

16:37
medicaid planning is really for modest

16:40
people

16:41
almost always couples uh and

16:44
it's in the most tragic time of their

16:46
life a typical case

16:48
is dad's 80 mom's 76

16:51
77 years old she's been taking care of

16:54
dad who's been

16:55
forgetful of where his car keys are and

16:58
pretty soon he's forgetful of names and

16:59
then he's diagnosed with dementia

17:02
and he's got alzheimer's and he can't be

17:04
taken care of at home anymore

17:06
right but physically he's strong and his

17:09
dad had alzheimer's and lived into his

17:11
90s

17:11
so what this couple's facing is eight to

17:15
ten to twelve thousand dollars a month

17:17
depending on where you live

17:18
in a memory care unit yeah and

17:22
see this couple that we worked on had

17:23
about a half a million dollars in assets

17:26
and if you divide uh you know ten

17:28
thousand dollars a month into that

17:30
you can see that you're going to run out

17:31
of money and now you have a couple that

17:33
had planned on happy retirement

17:35
and they're golden years and dad can't

17:38
remember mom's name

17:39
and doesn't know that they're spending

17:41
ten thousand dollars a month until she's

17:43
in the poor house

17:44
right so you know medicaid is

17:47
the you know the federal government

17:48
program administered by the states

17:51
to take care of people in that situation

17:55
they find themselves in a nursing home

17:56
with no money and the vast majority of

17:59
nursing

18:00
home bills are paid by medicaid now

18:02
there's private pay

18:03
uh nursing home insurance and then

18:05
people pay out of their pocket

18:07
but once their pocket book is empty or

18:10
in the case of couples

18:12
uh in 2021 you could keep

18:15
assets of 130 380

18:19
i believe and again this is you ask

18:21
about attorneys earlier this is not a do

18:23
it yours

18:24
do it at home yourself task this is an

18:26
elder care

18:27
attorney task so you engage an elder

18:29
care attorney who looks at all of your

18:31
assets and said okay you've got an ira

18:33
you've got some money in a brokerage

18:35
account you have an annuity you've got

18:36
money and checkbook

18:38
you own your home you own a car and

18:40
medicaid has a very specific

18:42
formula uh one of the things that they

18:45
will let you do

18:46
in admit this married couple situation

18:48
is to take some of your liquid assets

18:51
and buy an immediate annuity for the

18:54
life expectancy of the well spouse

18:56
in this case mom who's they say 76 years

18:58
old

18:59
she might be able to buy an annuity for

19:01
a 15 year period certain

19:04
and for that 15 years she'll get monthly

19:06
payments that medicaid won't touch and

19:10
they'll allow her to buy this annuity

19:12
with all the money over 130

19:15
000 create an income stream for mom

19:19
preserving her financial dignity and

19:21
then medicaid can pick up the tab for

19:23
dad

19:24
so that's it's a very interesting niche

19:27
in the

19:29
in the medicaid planning space but uh

19:32
yeah google it and you can see you know

19:35
attorneys all across the country

19:36
utilizing this strategy

19:38
because you can't give your money away

19:40
you can't give it to charity you can't

19:41
give it to your kids that disqualifies

19:43
you for

19:44
receiving medicaid benefits is it

19:46
typically

19:47
the period certain i know for for our

19:49
listeners a period certain

19:51
immediate annuity is you choose a

19:53
specific period of time say 15 years

19:55
it's going to pay

19:56
you or somebody that you list as

19:57
beneficiaries for 15 years if you died

19:59
in year 10

20:00
there's five more years of payments to

20:02
to the beneficiary

20:03
you can set it up 15 years 17 years 30

20:05
years 20 years whatever it's commodity

20:07
quote

20:09
is it is that typically the structure

20:11
that's used

20:12
as opposed to a lifetime income

20:14
guaranteed immediate annuity

20:16
yeah that's a great question it's a

20:18
common misconception

20:20
a lot of people think of annuities when

20:21
they think about life expectancy is that

20:23
annuity is going to last

20:25
no matter how long they live that kind

20:28
of annuity does

20:29
not qualify in the medicaid spend down

20:31
world

20:32
uh what you have so lifetime income

20:34
immediate annuities do not qualify what

20:36
you're saying

20:36
in the medicaid that's right so the uh

20:39
uh social security

20:40
uh puts up uh a table they update every

20:43
year so

20:44
and again you can find this online and

20:47
search for

20:48
uh social security life expectancy

20:51
calculator

20:52
enter your date of birth and it'll come

20:54
up with the months

20:55
or years and months of life expectancy

20:58
unless you got a minute to spend about

20:59
life expectancy sure

21:01
it's a common mis uh misconception i

21:03
mean life expectancy is not how long

21:05
you're going to live

21:06
yeah it's a it's a chart an estimation

21:09
of how long a group of people

21:11
will live on average so we take this 76

21:14
year old person

21:16
and take a hundred of them and if the

21:18
life expectancy in this irs table is 16

21:21
years

21:22
we would expect 16 people to have died

21:24
and 16 people still to be living

21:28
so the medicaid plan requires

21:31
uh a period certain annuity not to

21:34
exceed

21:35
the uh tabular life expectancy so it

21:38
does not go forever it goes for a

21:40
certain number of years

21:41
okay once you buy that annuity it

21:44
disappears from your medicaid balance

21:46
sheet

21:46
okay mom in this case can reaccumulate

21:49
the money without

21:50
being disqualified for medicaid so she

21:52
could rebuild her retirement account

21:55
uh and when dad does pass eventually

21:59
uh you know she's on her feet and and

22:02
i think this is where people get into

22:04
problems and

22:05
agents who pose as as estate planning

22:08
and elder care lawyers and they

22:10
shouldn't or cpas

22:13
that's where the problems happen you

22:14
just explain how to

22:16
set it up properly under the legal

22:18
guidelines

22:20
what happens if johnny agent who does

22:23
who wants to do it all himself and not

22:25
have

22:26
the clients talk to a lawyer and sets up

22:28
a lifetime income stream annuity

22:31
to to try to to solve for medicaid

22:34
this medicaid plan what happens then are

22:37
they is that a problem

22:39
yeah it does happen so what in real life

22:41
what happens is

22:43
uh people hear about the idea they buy

22:45
an annuity

22:46
and then they go into medicaid and they

22:48
say oh hey we have 130 000 in this

22:51
annuity

22:52
the medicaid case worker opens the

22:54
annuity contract and said

22:55
oh this annuity does not have the

22:57
required language

23:00
that makes it invisible to medicaid and

23:02
that language says that the annuity has

23:04
to be

23:05
non-cancelable non-commutable meaning

23:09
you can't exchange it for a lump sum

23:11
has no cash surrender value and the

23:13
payee cannot be changed

23:15
and it has to be for the right life

23:17
expectancy so

23:18
what happens is people go into medicaid

23:21
and they

23:22
deliver a non-qualifying

23:25
annuity policy and medicaid has to turn

23:27
them away

23:28
and say i'm sorry this is an asset and

23:32
so you need to go

23:33
sell this to somebody or discount it or

23:36
get your money back

23:38
spend it down and then come back

23:41
and with all immediate annuities and

23:42
annuities for lifetime income and

23:43
annuities in general

23:45
you shop all carriers for the highest

23:46
contractual guarantee at that specific

23:48
time

23:49
and as i tell people annuity quotes are

23:50
like a gallon of milk they expire every

23:52
seven to ten days unless you

23:54
lock them in through the application

23:55
process so you know when you're doing a

23:57
period certain quote and you have gone

23:59
through

24:00
the elder care attorney for this

24:01
medicaid type planning

24:03
just make sure you're using either

24:05
someone like myself someone like john

24:06
that's that's quoting all carriers

24:08
to find the highest contractual

24:10
guarantee you know for the situation

24:13
period certain annuity quotes john prime

24:16
it's not a life expectancy type type uh

24:19
quote

24:20
it has to do with interest rates correct

24:24
yeah annuities are income insurance

24:27
right i mean correct we know annuities

24:28
don't necessarily provide the highest

24:30
rate of return to people

24:32
but because high rates of return come

24:33
with commensurate high risk

24:35
sure so an immediate annuity is a

24:37
structured payment

24:39
it can be in the medicaid planning world

24:41
it's always for a period of years

24:43
eight years seven months because that is

24:46
the life expectancy of a you know a

24:48
78 or 80 year old person sure so

24:52
for most people and when you think about

24:54
you know backing up a step to the spend

24:56
thrift planning

24:57
the you could do life contingent options

24:59
meaning if a person lives beyond that

25:01
10-year

25:02
20-year 30-year period that the payment

25:04
keeps going

25:05
lots of insurance companies that i work

25:07
with are paying

25:08
you know hundreds of checks every month

25:10
to people who are 100 years old

25:12
and they have beat the insurance company

25:14
at their own game

25:16
yeah and it's a transfer risk and the

25:18
benefit proposition is as long as you

25:20
are are breathing with a lifetime income

25:23
stream annuity contract

25:25
they're going to pay you and i always

25:26
tell people there's no roi until you die

25:29
because up until then it's a pure

25:32
transfer of risk so i think

25:34
with the medicaid planning i get a lot

25:35
of those calls i think it's just

25:37
key for our listeners and viewers to

25:39
understand this is not do do-it-yourself

25:41
this is an annuity home depot right here

25:43
this is

25:44
you need to and get hold your nose if

25:46
you don't want to deal with lawyers

25:48
but estate planning lawyers elder care

25:50
lawyers

25:51
these are and these are people that are

25:55
part social worker part philanthropist i

25:57
mean they're

25:58
the the ones that i've run into are

25:59
fantastic and they love

26:01
helping and solving the problems and

26:03
doing it right

26:05
because what you don't want to do is do

26:07
it yourself and do it wrong and then

26:09
it's just a mess for not only not only

26:10
you and your family

26:12
um so that's that's a topic obviously we

26:14
want to dig into later and john will be

26:16
on

26:17
on the program numerous times by the way

26:20
his website is lens financial and lenses

26:23
lenz lensfinancial.com i would go there

26:27
if you want to

26:29
speak with john if you have an advanced

26:31
case that you would like for him and his

26:33
his team to work work on they will

26:35
certainly do that and we certainly send

26:37
him these advanced cases because

26:39
you know john's done it for 40 years man

26:41
he's seen it done i don't think there's

26:43
been a

26:43
he's been to every single annuity rodeo

26:46
imaginable

26:47
let's pivot and let's talk about

26:51
something that i guess coincides a

26:54
little bit

26:54
with um spin thrift planning or

26:57
handcuff lovingly handcuffing your

26:59
beneficiaries and that would be adding

27:02
a restrictive beneficiary payout you've

27:04
kind of covered it a little bit

27:06
but dig in deeper on some examples

27:09
of that because i'm i'm assuming there's

27:11
some a lot of our viewers and listeners

27:13
that

27:14
have a beneficiary in mind whether it's

27:16
a you know a son

27:18
daughter cousin whoever that

27:21
you know they they want to control it a

27:23
little bit sure

27:24
um and then i'll go a little further as

27:26
as you're talking it reminded me of

27:28
of uh using an annuity to make

27:30
charitable bequests and there you go

27:33
yeah do that we've been talking mostly

27:35
about annuity payments right structured

27:37
payments but a lot of people would

27:38
rather have

27:39
accumulation during you know while

27:41
they're alive and the structured payment

27:43
to their beneficiaries when they're

27:45
deceased

27:46
so you can purchase a multi-year

27:49
guaranteed

27:50
annuity with a quality company and a

27:52
high interest rate well

27:53
high-end rates let's explain that real

27:55
quick multi-year guarantee annuities for

27:56
the

27:57
people that don't know that are

27:58
listening this is the annuity industry's

28:00
version of a cd it's a fixed rate

28:03
for a specific period of time you can

28:04
buy them as short term as two years

28:06
at the time of this taping if you go to

28:08
the annuityman.com i have a live

28:10
feed and we list all of them you can

28:12
take a look you don't sign up you just

28:13
go there

28:14
so go with the myegos now that people

28:16
know what they are

28:18
so the uh this couple now

28:21
let's say uh mom and dad are alive and

28:23
they've got uh their

28:24
their son and daughter where one of them

28:27
is really good with money and one's

28:28
really not

28:29
and they're contemplating you know their

28:31
estate plan and

28:32
you know end-of-life planning which is

28:34
certainly a great idea once you get into

28:36
your 60s and 70s i mean stuff happens

28:38
right

28:39
we're all on that train together but mom

28:41
and dad are not interested in an annuity

28:43
income

28:44
stream now for them because they don't

28:45
need the income they've got social

28:47
security

28:48
you know other income sources they want

28:50
to accumulate money and maybe this

28:51
money's in an ira

28:53
they want some safety and growth but

28:56
they

28:56
they're only taking out a required

28:58
minimum distribution so you can put that

29:00
annuity or ira

29:02
with an insurance company that has a

29:04
specific form

29:05
that you complete during your lifetime

29:07
which by the way is changeable

29:09
as long as you're you have sound mind

29:11
and change it right up to the date of

29:12
your death

29:13
and you can put in the then the contract

29:16
pay

29:17
the annuity to my son john in

29:20
20 equal installments upon my death

29:24
and allow for no lump sum or change of

29:27
payee

29:28
you can put that in the contract right

29:31
in the contract now not everybody does

29:33
that

29:34
but some really good companies uh are

29:37
excellent

29:38
uh at that they've got a complete form

29:40
and you design it you can say i want it

29:41
for 10 years or

29:42
20 years i want it for their lifetime

29:45
and you can even nominate a

29:47
secondary beneficiary so lots of real

29:49
interesting options using

29:51
accumulation annuities like the myga

29:53
multi-year guarantee annuity

29:55
or other types of annuities and have

29:58
restrictive

29:59
uh beneficiary designations

30:03
i think people underestimate the

30:05
flexibility

30:06
of the customization of annuities um

30:09
you know there's so much bad information

30:12
and bad advertising and i hate all

30:13
annuities it's like saying you hate all

30:15
restaurants it's

30:15
right it's just dumb um but people have

30:18
fallen for that and they also

30:20
a lot of the people out there think well

30:22
i'm never going to buy an annuity

30:24
because when i die the evil annuity

30:25
company keeps the money of course that

30:27
is absolutely not true

30:29
um that only describes one way to

30:31
structure one

30:32
uh you know a lifetime income stream

30:34
annuity but but most of the lifetime

30:36
income

30:36
streams that that we do here at the

30:38
annuityman.com

30:40
is a lifetime income stream but if your

30:42
leader jet hits the mountain

30:43
be structured so that 100 of the money

30:45
goes to the beneficiaries and the evil

30:47
annuity

30:47
company doesn't keep a penny i think one

30:50
of the things that i want people to take

30:51
away from from

30:53
from what john's saying is think outside

30:55
the box if you have a situation that you

30:57
want to contractually

30:59
take care of and i hate to say control

31:02
from the grave or be a control freak but

31:04
there are times that that's needed there

31:06
are times that i mean my personal

31:08
situation i have two daughters that are

31:09
in their 20s or

31:10
you know college college-ish college

31:13
graduates

31:13
one's a dancer one's a writer okay

31:16
i have to set up these type of

31:19
situations for them in lifetime income

31:20
streams

31:21
because they might not ever make a lot

31:23
of money and when i die i want to make

31:25
sure that they're going to get that

31:26
lifetime income stream i'm a prime

31:28
example

31:29
of that um one other item i want to

31:33
maybe we we have time for a couple but

31:36
um you were talking to me the other day

31:39
about a really interesting idea it was a

31:41
an immediate annuity um it was a stretch

31:45
situation

31:46
it was for non-iras give us

31:49
that one was a was a very intriguing one

31:52
especially with the way tax laws are

31:54
changing

31:55
give us an example of what that is you

31:56
might have already coined a phrase for

31:58
what that is but it's stretching

32:00
non-qualified annuities am i correct

32:03
yeah yeah i wish i could take credit for

32:05
that the

32:05
coinage but no it's a non-qualified

32:08
stretch

32:09
the irs has looked favorably on that now

32:11
for uh

32:12
oh i don't know less than 10 years but

32:14
it's widely used in the insurance

32:15
industry

32:16
okay there's two trillion dollars of

32:18
annuity deposits estimated

32:20
uh right now uh accumulating interest

32:22
safely

32:23
for people across the country all those

32:25
people are going to die someday and

32:28
lots of these annuities have big gains

32:30
built up

32:31
so unlike stocks and real estate where

32:33
the

32:34
the basis is stepped up to the value of

32:37
death

32:38
annuities transfer over to the

32:40
beneficiaries

32:41
as income in respect of a decedent and

32:44
then it's going to be ordinary income

32:45
when the beneficiary takes it out so a

32:48
lot of beneficiaries are

32:49
you know in their 60s uh you know say

32:51
mom and dad are

32:52
deceased and they're you know 80 and the

32:55
kids are in their 50s 60s still working

32:58
and they don't want to put a hundred

33:00
thousand 200 300 000

33:03
of taxable income from their ira

33:06
or non-qualified non-ira annuity on

33:09
their next tax return

33:10
they just don't want to do that it's

33:12
going to shove them into the highest tax

33:14
bracket or one of the highest tax

33:16
brackets

33:17
so what the irs will allow you to do is

33:20
to

33:20
transfer your annuity claim

33:24
to a company that has filed uh to create

33:27
this non-qualified stretch

33:29
payment over the life expectancy of the

33:32
beneficiary

33:33
so we've got a brother and sister and

33:35
they're different ages

33:36
they each get their own life expectancy

33:38
payout now

33:39
i'm using the words life expectancy

33:41
carefully here it's not a lifetime

33:44
income

33:44
uh no matter how long they live say the

33:47
beneficiary is 60 and they have a 23

33:49
year life expectancy

33:50
it's 23 annual payments or 23 years of

33:54
monthly payments

33:55
okay that come from the annuity that are

33:57
contractually guaranteed

33:59
that spread all this taxable interest

34:01
out into the future

34:03
so you know you anticipate as your

34:05
income's down that your tax rate might

34:07
also be down

34:09
ever since i've been in the business all

34:10
we've talked about is tax rates have got

34:11
to go higher tax rates have got to go

34:13
higher

34:14
i'm starting to believe that now with as

34:15
much stimulus as that but anyway

34:17
uh bottom line stand is that yes you can

34:21
take this beneficiary

34:22
money not put it on their tax return

34:26
and spread it out and earn interest

34:28
during the process

34:31
so give us any give us an example of

34:34
that so so

34:35
let's just say that the parents are 75

34:39
each they die in a fiery learjet crash

34:41
and the kids are 50.

34:42
so the kids what do the kids do they

34:45
find out

34:46
all of a sudden that mom and dad had

34:47
this annuity now what

34:49
what did they do so let's say there are

34:52
two kids

34:52
one kid uh says i want my half

34:56
in cash right now and that kid ends up

35:00
paying a bunch of tax the other kid said

35:03
you know i'm still working i'm

35:05
successful i

35:06
i don't want to take this money now i

35:08
don't want to pay the extra tax

35:10
so they enter into this non-qualified

35:12
stretch

35:13
plan and then have the money transferred

35:17
during the claim process over to the new

35:20
annuity company

35:21
and they can put that in either an

35:23
immediate annuity that pays out over

35:25
this

35:26
20 some odd years the life expectancy

35:28
yeah or whatever that would happen

35:30
they can put it into a an accumulation

35:33
annuity

35:33
okay and pull out the equivalent of an

35:36
rmb

35:37
required minimum distribution so they're

35:39
not forced into

35:40
a payment stream per se they can just

35:42
take a withdrawal and let the money grow

35:44
over time

35:45
and that requirementum distribution

35:47
would be based on

35:48
their life expectancy that's right and

35:51
it's the old

35:52
uh table one irs

35:56
chart that was always used for

35:58
non-qualified

35:59
or excuse me ira beneficiary payouts to

36:02
non-spouses

36:03
and under the trump administration in

36:06
the secure act

36:07
the stretch ira was basically eliminated

36:10
it used to be life expectancy as you

36:12
know now it's a maximum

36:13
of 10 years but we're still using

36:16
annuities in that situation how about

36:18
for spouses

36:18
they didn't change not for non-spouses

36:21
for spouses

36:22
they can still stress a spouse basically

36:25
can become the owner

36:27
of their deceased spouse ira so it just

36:29
becomes theirs and they take it out

36:31
under rmd when they hit age 72.

36:35
so for all the people listening and

36:36
watching this that are 50 and 60 and

36:38
going back to

36:39
to this example and they find out that

36:42
mom and dad have this annuity or

36:43
annuities

36:44
plural they're going to call

36:48
they're going to call the carrier or the

36:51
hopefully they're going to call me or

36:52
they're going to call you

36:53
at lensfinancial.com where what's the

36:56
next step because i think there's a lot

36:58
of people out there going wait a minute

36:59
i think mom has one

37:00
has an annuity i need to get my ducks in

37:04
the row

37:04
who do i call are they going to call the

37:06
carrier that issued the policy

37:08
to the mom are they going to call me and

37:10
you we're going to help

37:11
yeah both ways it it's not it's not an

37:14
uncommon for you know the son or the

37:17
daughter to go through mom or dad's

37:19
things

37:20
and it's that sad thing about you know

37:22
looking at bank accounts and all of a

37:23
sudden they find an annuity from

37:25
the insurance company they don't know

37:26
what it is they don't understand it

37:28
and you know sometimes the agent you

37:30
know is no longer in business

37:32
so they they often call the company

37:35
companies are

37:36
pretty good now when they send out a

37:37
claim kit to say you've got more than

37:39
just a lump sum option

37:40
yeah but yeah if the advisor is still

37:44
there and understands the business

37:46
you're going to get some you know that's

37:48
a tough one did you just say understands

37:49
the business

37:51
whoa slow down slow down slow down

37:55
and we joke about that because our this

37:56
business can be pretty complicated at

37:58
times yes uh it's not rocket science

38:01
but there's some nuances and tax rates

38:03
we got to follow

38:04
yeah it's not rocket science but you

38:06
need to know where the switches are

38:07
right

38:08
i mean you do need to understand how the

38:10
rocket's built a little bit

38:12
um final segment because i mean we've

38:14
been we could roll with this all the

38:16
time and certainly we're going to have

38:17
john on again

38:18
and when we have him on we're going to

38:20
do a lot more detailed uh planning type

38:22
examples even though he's done that here

38:24
um but yeah you can one more time you

38:28
can contact johnlensfinancial.com

38:30
tell them that you listened to this

38:32
wonderful fun with annuities podcast and

38:34
and it tweaked your interest on a topic

38:36
and he certainly will help you you can

38:37
call me as well at theannuityman.com

38:40
john what's your overall um outlook for

38:44
the annuity industry and when i say that

38:46
it

38:46
is somewhat of a loaded question but you

38:49
know with 10 000 baby boomers hitting

38:51
age 65 every single day i call that a

38:53
demographic title wave i mean it's it's

38:56
a it's people there's thousands of

38:57
people every day

38:59
looking for contractual guarantees and

39:00
in my opinion i think the annuity

39:02
industry as a whole

39:03
has dropped the ball um from the

39:06
standpoint of not

39:06
reminding people these are contractual

39:08
guarantees and not reminding people that

39:11
this is where you go for lifetime income

39:13
because that's the monopoly that only

39:14
the annuity category can provide i know

39:17
that you're a glass half full guy and

39:19
i'm the curmudgeon glass half empty

39:21
can't find the glass

39:22
what's your thought on the annuity

39:24
industry going forward saying the next

39:26
five to ten years

39:27
where what's going to happen in your

39:29
opinion

39:30
let me rub my crystal ball here a little

39:33
bit john johnson

39:34
john has john has a telesavalis look go

39:37
ahead

39:37
i'm sorry i don't predict the future

39:39
really well but uh you know having been

39:42
at it for 40 plus years uh the

39:44
industry's healthy

39:46
uh it's it's trying to innovate in a

39:48
difficult environment because

39:50
interest rates are so low i mean the

39:52
10-year treasury bill while we're taping

39:53
this is what

39:54
between 150 and 160 so you end up with

39:58
1.5 percent

39:59
on 10-year money with the us government

40:02
so

40:02
nobody's interested in 1.5 so the

40:05
industry's having to go out you know and

40:06
invest this money

40:07
safely and meet their regulatory

40:10
requirements

40:11
and still deliver something positive to

40:13
the consumer

40:15
so you know you are about guarantees and

40:18
that's

40:18
you know one thing that drew me to you

40:20
early on because there is a lot of

40:21
razzle dazzle in the annuity space stuff

40:24
that

40:24
you and i would never buy or recommend

40:27
but annuities provide this excellent

40:30
layer of

40:31
income protection and if i think if

40:33
insurance companies stick to their

40:35
knitting

40:36
and remember what they're best at that

40:38
it'll be

40:39
a healthy environment for them do you

40:42
see a lot of consolidation on the

40:43
horizon and if so

40:45
is it consolidation within the industry

40:48
or is it the hedge fund private equity

40:50
big money people

40:51
trying to get in the way of of this

40:53
demographic tidal wave

40:55
yeah it's both there's always been a lot

40:57
of merger and acquisition

40:59
inside of our industry where you know

41:01
insurance companies are

41:03
buying other companies for scale and

41:05
size

41:06
and then over the past 10 plus years

41:09
there's been private equity

41:11
entered our business in a very big way i

41:13
think they believe

41:14
and maybe rightly so that they're better

41:16
at investing

41:18
uh and and their the track record shows

41:22
uh

41:22
it's pretty successful so there's lots

41:24
of big names out there

41:26
but again uh in my view if you want

41:29
something that's guaranteed for a

41:30
lifetime and you're you're 60 years old

41:32
and that might be 30

41:34
or 40 years you want a big strong

41:36
company that's going to be there

41:37
it's not the highest payment each month

41:40
it's that you sleep at night

41:41
knowing that payment is going to be

41:42
there every month as long as you're

41:45
alive

41:46
i always tell people that life insurance

41:47
companies aren't smarter than banks

41:49
they're just more regulated

41:50
can you expound upon that i mean do you

41:52
agree with that statement

41:54
oh i think both industries are highly

41:56
regulated i just say that life insurance

41:58
companies and

41:58
annuity companies let's speak when you

42:00
know if you send a hundred thousand

42:02
dollars into an insurance company to buy

42:03
an annuity

42:04
they have to reserve for that entire

42:06
hundred thousand dollars being withdrawn

42:08
at any time

42:10
so they've got day one you're talking

42:11
about day one yeah the uh when an

42:13
insurance company

42:14
you know get your hundred thousand

42:16
dollars they've got to buy

42:17
something safe that matches up with the

42:20
time horizon

42:21
uh that you've selected with your

42:23
annuity for instance if you bought

42:25
this three year myga the multi-year

42:27
guarantee

42:28
cd look-alike annuity sure the insurance

42:30
companies got to have that money liquid

42:32
in three years that's not going into the

42:34
stock market or real estate market it's

42:36
buying you know high quality bonds um

42:39
baskets of mortgages and whatnot and so

42:42
the industry uh

42:44
has big reserves on top of the actual

42:47
money they've got to pay back to you

42:48
they've got to add up some additional

42:50
money

42:50
out of there in their capital surplus to

42:53
create an additional reserve

42:54
over and above what they owe you so yeah

42:56
the industry's you know highly regulated

42:59
and that's why you've seen a lot more

43:01
bank failures than insurance company

43:03
failures

43:04
no i agree and these these investments

43:06
always tell people they're not just

43:07
picking and choosing at random

43:08
kind of explain the the parameters and

43:11
and

43:12
the restrictions on what what annuity

43:14
companies life insurance companies

43:15
by the way life insurance companies

43:16
issue annuities so that's the reason we

43:18
keep going back and forth with that

43:20
what are they allowed to buy

43:23
well again i i'm speaking broad terms

43:27
yeah i don't work inside an insurance

43:29
company but

43:30
an insurance company has to buy uh

43:33
quality debt instruments generally so

43:36
corporate bonds

43:37
government bonds mortgage-backed

43:40
securities

43:41
things that can be readily converted

43:42
into cash if the annuity owner

43:45
wants all of their money and of course

43:47
the insurance companies are already

43:49
structuring payment streams to people so

43:51
they know they're going to need to be

43:53
paying out money

43:54
they know people are going to die so you

43:57
might look at what they're not buying

43:59
and they're not

44:00
buying risky equities they're not

44:03
buying junk bonds

44:06
only in small amounts and then they have

44:08
to add additional capital

44:10
uh in reserve uh for junk bond purchases

44:13
they're not buying as much real estate

44:15
as the industry has historically

44:17
i and i was going to say they're not

44:20
buying bitcoin but they did see the

44:22
other day an insurance company did make

44:24
a big

44:24
bitcoin purchase with a nominal amount

44:26
of their there really

44:27
yeah that's and that's interesting um i

44:30
just did a podcast on bitcoin and

44:32
cryptocurrency with with the person that

44:34
totally knows the blockchain technology

44:36
and we went through that that's

44:38
that's an interesting and obviously

44:39
they're gonna have to reveal that and

44:40
people can look at that as well

44:42
um other than interest rates being a big

44:44
challenge what do you see the

44:45
the other challenge as a whole or if

44:48
there is one for the annuity industry

44:51
i'd say regulation is a challenge for

44:53
the industry um

44:54
i'm not trouble and i know you're not

44:56
troubled by regulation

44:57
uh you know compensation disclosure uh

45:01
making sure clients have adequate

45:03
liquidity

45:04
uh you know we're moving towards the

45:07
fiduciary standard we're at a

45:08
suitability standard today

45:10
so i'd say regulatory is a challenge for

45:12
the industry

45:14
uh low interest rates are undoubtedly

45:16
the toughest challenge for the industry

45:17
right

45:18
now distribution is an issue there's a

45:21
lot of old guys like me with insurance

45:23
licenses are going to be retiring at

45:24
some point

45:26
and there's there's people like you that

45:28
have just you know come out in storm and

45:30
said deal with me directly sure

45:33
insurance companies are trying to uh

45:35
go direct to the consumer and have done

45:37
so so in some places

45:39
um so yeah i'd say like any other

45:41
industry there's certainly challenges

45:43
going forward but

45:44
you know big companies that offer these

45:46
products are making money

45:48
and delivering value to their clients

45:51
yeah and i i'm for i'm a firm believer

45:53
in the direct-to-consumer model in fact

45:54
pioneering it out here myself at

45:56
the annuityman.com but i think this

45:58
podcast proves that

46:01
you know you do need experts to talk to

46:02
you about how to do this and how to do

46:04
this right the education level

46:07
on annuities as a category and there's

46:08
many types of annuities

46:10
is lacking um you know john and i both

46:12
believe that that education

46:14
on and learning about these products

46:15
both good and bad limitations and

46:16
benefits

46:18
is the key to making a good informed

46:19
decision on your terms and your time

46:20
frame and you have to understand

46:22
you're buying a contract so you have you

46:24
know understand the contract

46:26
but um we've gone a long time to i mean

46:28
this has been great

46:29
but you're going to be back right john

46:31
i'm holding you to this on air so

46:33
uh you know we definitely want you back

46:36
and remember

46:37
you know you can reach john at lens

46:40
lensfinancial.com

46:42
dot com based in portland oregon he's

46:45
he's not rioting and i can i can vouch

46:48
for john that he's not you he's not been

46:49
riding

46:50
rioting downtown um we love portland

46:53
it's a beautiful city any closing

46:55
remarks john before we

46:56
say goodbye to everybody no i'm good to

46:58
go as uh i'd love to do this again stan

47:01
we can drill down a little bit deeper

47:03
it's i know the annuity world in general

47:05
is accumulation

47:06
sure but there's all this ancillary

47:08
business on the outside

47:10
where annuities make a tremendous amount

47:11
of sense they're enjoying

47:13
endorsed by the government uh literally

47:16
in

47:16
their planning so yeah i love it it's

47:19
been good business for me

47:20
well that's fantastic i really

47:22
appreciate everyone joining us we'll see

47:24
you next week on

47:25
the number one annuity podcast on the

47:27
planet where our saying here is live in

47:29
the reality

47:30
not the dream my name is stan the

47:33
annuity man

47:34
and we'll see you on next week's fun

47:36
with

47:37
annuities

47:42
thanks for listening to fun with

47:44
annuities please hit the subscribe

47:46
button and make sure to go to my site

47:48
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47:51
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47:52
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48:01
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48:04
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48:06
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48:07
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48:10
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48:12
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48:13
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48:15
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48:16
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48:18
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48:19
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48:22
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48:25
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48:26
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48:29
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48:30
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48:36
[Music]